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14:08
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Q: ICAO Standards And Recommended Practices

J. HougaardThere seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of ICAO in aviation regulations. Maybe this is largely caused by a large portion of the community being from the US? Although the US is an ICAO member state, the FAA tends to prefer making their own rules, rather than adopting ICAO Standards and...

@Shalvenay Really? On a country road, I would agree. But I'd hate to see what would happen in downtown New York if all the traffic lights went out... The same thing could be said for a place like Chicago O'Hare and ATC.
@JeffTeoh FYI, I'd argue it's a bit more nuanced than @Shalvenay is letting on. Admittedly, he's correct for most small planes at small airports (there are many many airports in this country that have no ATC at all, and they work just fine.) But at big airports with big planes.... ATC is a bit more essential.
I think it might actually be an interesting question for the Stack in general. "What would happen if ATC went down for 30 minutes at a major airport and there wasn't another major ATC center nearby to take over the load?" Or something like that.
Yes?
I just had a question in my mind thats all...
Not sure what you are getting at.
I mean, the site is literally for questions, so... I mean, it's not a bad thing to ask questions here too. I just tend to think if a question is one that other people might find interesting, you might as well ask it on the Stack.
14:25
Ol
ok*
So your saying that asking on the Stack is better because other people get to learn as well?
Well, i didn't think the question was interesting because I thought the question was common sense for other people on this stack.
Well, I do apologise. If you want me to I can put it on the stack now.
@JayCarr Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you.
@JeffTeoh there's nothing wrong with asking here first to see if the question is interesting first, or to help refine the question
Ok, cool :-)
I just worked out that the return flights for my holiday are costing me less than I normally spend on one flying lesson :-|
14:41
Yikes, how much does one flying lesson cost you?
just over £200 per hour
woah
That's why my parents wont let me go to flying school :/
15:30
@DanHulme Yes, but keep in mind, they won't let you fly the plane on your holiday flights...
@JeffTeoh It is pretty expensive... Are you in the UK, US? Canada? (Or any other number of countries where English is spoken or learned...)
Australia.
@JeffTeoh What, that's a country? I thought it was a prison colony? (totally joking, I'm in America, it's not like I have any room to speak ;).
How much does a private pilots license cost in Australia?
I'm given to understand Australia is relatively cheap for GA
15:33
Brb talking to a microsoft advisor.
Huh, if Microsoft is running the aviation industry in Australia... Then they have far more control over the world than I could have easily predicted.
haha
nah, it's about my laptop.
You should just wipe it clean and install Ubuntu Linux on it. That'd solve all your problems right there (and create many many more, but hey...)
@JayCarr "I'm sorry, we can't get your IFR release. ERAM/UAT just bluescreened."
@JayCarr "Sir, I'm afraid the routing computer has ransomware. If you want your clearance please have your airline wire $10,000 to this Latvian bank…"
I guess your kinds right?
Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL)

Recreational Pilot Licence (RPL)
- 28.5 Hours Dual (C172)
- 5 Hours Solo (C172)
- Theory
- Landing Fees (37)
- Movement Fees (37)
- Exam Fees (First Solo, Area Solo, BAK & Flight Radio Exam)
- Security Checks & ASIC Card
- Pilot Case
- Theory Manuals, Aircraft Manual, Student Notebook
- Visual Flight Guide
- SYD Visual Terminal Chart
- Part 61 MoS $14,032
15:41
@voretaq7 Better than a Mac I guess: "I'm sorry sir, but our ATC software is not compatible with Airbuses at the moment."
Or "Sir, your Mac is overheating.."
@JeffTeoh That's roughly $10,500 American, which sounds roughly the same as what we pay in the US. Sound about right @voretaq7?
@JeffTeoh This Mac is on fiyaaa
Granted, I'm a big Apple user myself, but what fun is life if you can't poke fun at oneself and the products you use?
@JayCarr Just because the Airbus is French and won't play well with others…
@voretaq7 No it just has to come of all aloof and French. With their cheese, and fine wines! Bunch of jerks.
@JayCarr If those costs are for the equivalent of a US sport pilot then I'd say they're high. $10.5K should get you a full private certificate here.
15:45
@Pondlife They're learning in a 172, so I assumed it was the equivalent of a PPL
But you may have a point.
@JayCarr Those costs are a little high
it looks like the certificate is the equivalent of the "Recreational Pilot's License" nobody ever gets in the US
Okay, fine, you guys got me. I actually don't know what I'm talking about :'(
(just judging by the number of hours)
@JayCarr Yeah, but only 33.5 hours flying time? It looks much closer to sport or recreational than private. Hard to be sure, though.
But yeah $10k is about right for a private in busy airspace, training regularly (2-3x a week) so you can bang it out quick
15:46
Or they just have less hours for a PPL... I guess it really depends on what privledges they get.
@JayCarr I would assume no night, right @JeffTeoh ? I think we're the only country where that's not a separate rating/endorsement...
Well, it looks like Australia has a night VFR rating, so that's one difference
Looking over this: google.com/…
Jeez, sorry about the sucky link.
Anyway, it's a PDF about what the RPL is.
It does sound like a Sport Pilots License, I would conceed.
You can only fly smaller planes and carry 1 passenger at a time.
Wow, and you can't go further than 25nm without more endorsement. That's very limiting.
Yup. It's just for people who want to fly around a bit and then land, you know, for fun rather than to really get anything done.
Frankly, if you don't care if you are carrying anyone, you could do more in an ultralight in the US.
15:50
Sure, and that's exactly my plan after work today: fly around a bit for fun. And land, of course, I can't forget that bit... :-)
Oh, so you guys are not getting a Comercial Pilot?
@Pondlife You will be coming down one way or another, might as well do it in a pleasant fashion.
@JeffTeoh Most people here are just private pilots.
I see.
Or they're like me and are saving up money to get a private pilots license.
There are a lot of professionals active on the site, but not in the chat
15:52
@JayCarr :-) Exactly
Though we do also have the occassional ATP (@casey when he shows up) and a few engineers (iike @Federico).
@JeffTeoh I have a CPL, but I don't fly professionally. It doesn't pay very well compared to my day job, even if it's more fun :-)
@DanHulme How much is a private license in Britain again?
@Pondlife Doesn't @voretaq7 have one as well, for insurance or something?
@JayCarr I don't know what it is on an aircraft that isn't ridiculously expensive to fly
@DanHulme lol, so the moral is that learning to fly on the Tiger Moth, while enjoyable, isn't exactly cheap.
15:54
@JayCarr no, I'm half-assed working on my instrument rating (and really need to start using my whole ass…)
@JayCarr I don't know, but it's fairly common to do it for insurance or just for the challenge
@voretaq7 Surely you mean, ignore your ass and focus on your scan? ;-)
5
@DanHulme How ridiculously expensive is the Tiger Moth?
@voretaq7 What, you're not even IFR! You dissapoint me sir! I looked up to you! Go get your whole ass on that thing already! (I provide these motivational services for free even...)
45 hours on a Tiger Moth is about £9k, if you can even do it in the minimum hours; add to that about £100 for a medical and £300 for the knowledge tests, plus however much it costs to get an examiner for your skills check
@Pondlife Fun Fact: Because of vestibular damage I have effectively no natural sense of balance (it's all visual, watching me get on "down" escalators is really amusing!) - makes the whole "Fly without looking out the windows!" thing a lot easier :)
15:55
@DanHulme Well with how the pound is going, that's just getting more and more affordable all the time (sorry, couldn't resist...)
Even funner fact: Not a damn blessed question about that on the medical forms!
"damn blessed"
doesn't that just cancel out?
@voretaq7 Nice! Well, not really, but you know what I mean :-) Did you have any problems getting a medical?
@voretaq7 lol, to be fair, trusting your sense of balance is a really good way to get yourself killed in IMC.
@JayCarr Not a problem for me, I can't trust it in VMC either :) "Which way do you think the airplane is going?" -- "Man, I haven't a fucking clue until I open my eyes and see either the instruments or the horizon!"
15:57
I had a fun experience with misleading balance last weekend
@DanHulme Probably, it's one of those phrases I picked up from an angry southern woman, it's probably not supposed to make sense...
@DanHulme Do tell.
it was on the turn onto crosswind leg; I looked all about and suddenly thought "if I didn't know to compare the wings against the horizon I'd think we were level"
@Pondlife I have problems with those ineffective field sobriety tests where they want you to stand on one foot while reciting the alphabet backwards…
(the former I can do with a little concentration, but I can't do the latter sober - I'm a fucking engineer!)
@voretaq7 I don't understand those. Why don't they just use breathalysers?
15:59
@DanHulme Cheap entertainment? Looks good on "Cops"?
@DanHulme to be legal they have to be calibrated and controlled - can't stick 'em in a hot cop car all day
@voretaq7 they do here
also probably too kerspensive or something, we're really cheap. If we bought every cop a portable brethalyzer and a supply of cardboard tips we couldn't afford the urban assault vehicles at the army surplus sales!
if you fail the roadside test, they test you again on a more accurate machine at the police station
@DanHulme See, YOUR country (despite the brexit vote) is actually not STUPID
that must be a nice feeling, knowing your country isn't STUPID, not having to take your shoes off and get groped by a troll to get on a jet, having a queen!
16:02
@DanHulme And it gives cops some, er, 'discretion' that they wouldn't otherwise have. Drink driving is pretty common in the US, in my experience, and in rural areas I think they like to have some way to scare someone but let them go.
@Pondlife ah, we did away with that years ago; it's zero-tolerance on drink-driving now
@DanHulme As it should be. See? Not STUPID.....
@Pondlife Really? I heard you get like 100grand a year
together with a propaganda campaign, they created a huge social pressure against it
@JeffTeoh Maybe with an ATP (not a CPL!) and twenty years experience, but that's not me :-)
16:04
haha, ok
here we arrest you for it, sell your car at auction, and then you get acquitted (probably because the cop fucked up the brethalyzer or sommat) and you sue the county for millions because they sold your busted-ass hoopty.
I also heard theres a high amount of pilots wanted??
@Pondlife @JeffTeoh even the ATP doesn't pay well at the start, it's amazing how pathetic the salary for FOs is.
@JeffTeoh Actually, I was offered my first paying flying job last week: a photography flight for 2 hours. I'm pretty sure it would take me a long time to make 100K that way!
Oh, wowo.
16:05
it's like "Yeah, I would LOVE to fly... but the pay is like one fifth of what I'm making now? Nope. Mom and dad won't let me move back in!"
I guess is all propaganda..aye.
@JeffTeoh top tier at the major legacy carriers makes good money and gets sweet scheduling, but it's a long climb to the top....
haha
When I told my mum I want to be a pilot she said be a flight attendant.
@DanHulme That has some practical issues in the US: it's a huge country with limited public transport and many people living in small towns. And many of those people are not interested in drinking one beer and then going home...
I mean, don't get me wrong. Flight attendants are quite useful.
16:08
@JeffTeoh Southwest pays something like $30/hr :)
wow,haha
and I believe they get the same travel benefits as the rest of the air crew.
and they have more sex
Well, fly with emirates.
I mean I heard emirates is all 5 stars hotel.
I'm under the impression flight attendants don't have quite as much possibility for career advancement.
Plus, the obvious one, they don't get to fly the plane. And if that's what you're after in life...
16:12
I guess so..
haha, thats true.
@JeffTeoh Are you looking into programs for commercial pilots licenses?
Not at the moment, can't really afford it.
I mean, you make it sound like you are a teenager or something, you're probably in a good position to really get this figured out if you want to do it.
I'm a 16 year old :-)
yeah, we have a VEET program here
Do they not have colleges in Australia that you can get a degree in aviation from or something? Maybe give you access to scholarships and loans and such?
VEET?
16:14
where the government pays it off for you but I'm not sure whether I could do it with flying programs.
Well then that would be a good thing to figure out, eh?
Yeah..ikr.
I always love flying or being at the airport.
I was thinking of becoming an immigration officer if I fail terrible at IT.
Then pursue it. The older I get, the more I wished I'd taken that idea seriously when I was a teenager.
I thought I'd grow out of loving planes, but it never happened. Now I kind of regret not getting more involved with aviation.
Theres so much I want to do in life.
You and everyone. The key is to do your reasearch and figure out how hard different options are, and do you best to figure out how much you might enjoy them (and it's of course good to know if you can pay for your existence too.)
16:17
And yet life is so short :/
Life is plenty long enough to have some fun.
Yeah, I guess.
May I know what is your current occupation?
I'm a Business Systems Analyst (who does supervisory work) for O'Reilly Auto Parts in the United States.
I'm currently working on getting into managment and then, hopefully, looking to get a job in the aerospace industry in some capacity.
That's cool!
I enjoy it quite a bit actually :)
But it was a really really odd and long road to get here, that's for sure.
I think it's why I recommend doing some research on where you want to go in life. Maybe save yourself a few years of aimlessly wondering about (like I did) ;)
16:20
well, life is short enjoy it while you can :-)
That's what I always think when I feel bad.
Yeah, I remember I used to think that a lot when I was a teenager. I don't know what changed as I've gotten older (I'm only 33), but I no longer feel like life is short, that's for sure.
Oh, reallay?
There's a lot of time to do a lot of things, just gotta focus, trust me :)
really*
Really
16:22
I guess so.
You'll know so someday ;)
In the mean time, go and reasearch what you'd have to do to become a commercial pilot.
You don't have to commit or anything.
But you might be surprised what you find out just by reading up on it.
You really should do it with any vocation you are considering.
haha, I've always tell myself "You learn lots of things in life, but you just don't know when you are going to learn it:.
@JeffTeoh Unless you're taking a class, reading a book or doing some sort of online course or something... But yes, that is true in many ways.
Yeah :-)
Anyways, it's been nice meeting you all :)
I've better get to sleep now. It's currently 1:55am
Sleep, that is a good thing. You do that good sir, see you later :)
16:26
Cya!
 
6 hours later…
22:14
@JayCarr -- yeah, I was giving the newb's oversimplification -- of course, it'd be a lot messier if you lost NorCal or Potomac Approach for 30mins

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