The Hangar

SMS von der Tann

01:01

@DanHulme And we have LBSTA and CHWDH after the local ways of pronouncing "lobster" and "chowder"

Lots of those waypoints are also named after local sports teams too.

Jay Carr

06:17

@BretCopeland I like the look of that, for sure.

Bret Copeland

@JayCarr thanks. We'll see if Stephane sees it that way.

Jay Carr

@BretCopeland I hope he does. I left some support on your comment. I don't know if Stephane flies or not, or is big into aviation. It may be hard for him to see the difference between a constellation and aviation charts... But I think you concept gets it right, so I hope he follows it.

Now if I could just get him to use my "The up/down vote arrows should be B2s" idea....

Bret Copeland

He's not a pilot or really aware of aviation stuff outside of his research for this design.

Jay Carr

@BretCopeland Well, he's doing pretty damned well all things considered. If it was me, it'd probably end up looking more like that original design from a while back...

He mentioned something about not doing custom arrows anymore because they aren't...scalable?

I'm not sure what that means in this context.

Bret Copeland

Part of the reason we don't customize vote arrows anymore is that we already have enough of a problem reminding people to vote, making them look different, or possibly not like arrows, doesn't help.

Jay Carr

06:28

@BretCopeland Aw, but a B-2 looks just like an arrow!

I'll just go to my pity corner and whine for a few minutes then move on with life I guess.

Bret Copeland

It does, but not as much as the normal vote buttons do.

Jay Carr

Pfffffffffffff.....fffff......ff

Yeah, probably.

Dan Hulme

08:52

@BretCopeland that reasoning isn't at all convincing

Dan Hulme

09:06

are voting rates lower on sites that have custom arrow designs than on sites that don't?

I see there's a new aviation question on Worldbuilding:

17

Q: What would a Boeing 747 look like if it were left in a hangar for 5,000 years. Could it still be flown?

Assume a passenger aircraft were left undercover for a very long period, perhaps thousands of years, in a damp, arboreal environment. How much of it would survive? Which parts would remain intact, and which parts would decay? What would it take to get it airborne again? How long could it reasona...

post-apocalypse

falstro

13:47

I like worldbuilding. It's a great fit for SE

Federico

14:15

I am puzzled by the fact that the accepted answer is the accepted answer aviation.stackexchange.com/q/29481/1467 O_o

Jay Carr

17:10

@Federico That is one of the major limitations of Stack Exchange. The idea of the "correct answer" check mark goes all the way back to Stack Overflow. And it supposedly meant "I tried this and it worked for my particular problem".

We don't ask questions like that here though, and sometimes in order to understand the answer to a question you have to have a certain level of knowledge.... It's a bit of a draw back. I kind of wish the answer check mark could be removed sometimes. Just let the community decide without the need for a check mark when it comes to answers that are not easily tested against the question...

For whatever it's worth, I actually voted to delete the answer since I feel that it being marked as "correct" actually harms the site...

falstro

@JayCarr it doesn't mean correct answer, it means accepted answer.

and as me an @BretCopeland have discussed in here before, it's not possible to delete an accepted answer.

But yeah, you are correct that it fits better to the "I have a problem, how can I solve it" type of question.

Jay Carr

@falstro You can't delete it? Ah rats... But yeah, that's essentially what I mean. Sorry, my terminology get's confused some time "accepted answer" is what I meant... -_-;;

I swear I've used stack exchange before...

Bret Copeland

@falstro can't be unilaterally deleted by the author. I'm not sure if the community can vote to delete it.

falstro

@JayCarr a mod might be able to, but I can't delete an answer I posted myself.

Jay Carr

@BretCopeland Huh, well, I nominated it for deletion so I guess we'll see what happens.

falstro

17:15

oh, right, it's in the negative... another case of "let's downvote the accepted answer because there's a better one below it".

it's a pretty horrible approach

the great circle argument is a valid answer and doesn't deserve to be downvoted

Bret Copeland

It also might be possible for an author to delete an accepted answer if it has a negative score. I sort of forget what buttons are available under what circumstances because I see all the buttons all the time.

falstro

it's probably not the right answer, so it doesn't deserve upvotes, but it's not horribly wrong as to deserve downvotes

Dan Hulme

@falstro yeah, it's a good answer, especially given the diagram... it's just probably not what the questioner meant

falstro

exactly

so why all the down and delete-votes?

it's a pretty douche thing to do.

you're essentially punishing the guy answering for the fact that the asker selected it as accepted.

Jay Carr

@falstro Because there's no other way to explain that the answer is wrong in the SE system?

falstro

17:18

it's not wrong

it's a valid answer

Jay Carr

If there were a way to review the answer and unmark it as correct, it wouldn't be an issue.

It is not a valid answer, read the question.

falstro

I have read the quest

Jay Carr

He's not asking about great circles

falstro

he doesn't even know what he's talking abuot

Jay Carr

Then the question should be marked as unclear and deleted.

falstro

17:19

but either way, it wouldn't have gotten downvoted had it not been accepted

that's my point

Jay Carr

Okay, so you think the question is sufficiently unclear that it should just be deleted then?

falstro

so you're essentially being a douche to someone who had a reasonable, although probably misguided explanation

Jay Carr

How about you stop accusing me of being a douche? Because I really don't appreciate your characterization of me as a person.

falstro

no, I think the topvoted answer is the best one

Jay Carr

So the top voted answer is correct, the question is fine. Yet the wrong answer has been accepted.

Bret Copeland

17:20

The fact that the OP accepted the answer dealing with great circle curves, suggests that might be what he/she was asking about.

Jay Carr

What do you propose we do?

Bret Copeland

The question was wildly unclear.

falstro

fair enough, not my intention, I'm saying you're well intentioned acts of trying to promoted the non-accepted answer is coming across as a douche move

Jay Carr

@BretCopeland Then why isn't it being closed?

@falstro And I'm asking what other alternatives there are if we want to make sure questions on our site have high quality answers.

ratchet freak

cause there is a valid (as of yet unasked) question under there

falstro

17:22

that's a good question, but I don't think it's a good thing to punish the guy who answered the question to make that point.

Bret Copeland

Yeah, I think it needs to be clarified, not closed.

Jay Carr

@falstro I would agree there should be a better alternative, I've made suggestions to that effect on Meta before (and gotten horribly downvoted for even bringing it up.)

I don't like this solution either, but it's the only way to let people visiting the site know that the answer is wrong.

@BretCopeland To be fair, he did clarify it in one of his comments.

If his comments can be added to his post by a mod....

Though I guess they could be added by anyone, come to think of it.

In his comments it fairly clearly sounds like he's talking about airways, not circle routes.

In fact this may be a duplicate of a question I asked some time ago...

Bret Copeland

hmmm, yeah, that's true.

What a weird set of actions.

Jay Carr

46

Q: Why do pilots use airways instead of just "flying direct" every time?

These days, on larger/newer aircraft at least, it seems like GPS navigation is pretty much ubiquitous. So it doesn't seem like VORs and Non-directional Beacons (NDBs) would really get a lot of usage and, as I recall, the reason we have airways is because they were the connection points between V...

air-traffic-control navigation

@BretCopeland Yeah, it's a bit of a mess...

There, marked it as a possible dupe. Really wish the author would clarify. Honestly agree with @Falstro that voting down an accepted answer just because it's not completely correct is stupid, still not sure what alternatives we have in SE.

Bret Copeland

I tend to agree with the duplicate vote.

Jay Carr

17:27

@BretCopeland It would clear things up for sure...

falstro

The problem is generally that the asker has the right to "accept" an answer, SE treats this as to say the answer is "correct" (by adding a check mark, by promoting it to the top of the list).

this has some sense on SO, if there's a particular problem to solve and the answer might have actually done that. But SO also suffers from the same behavior issue, better answer below? Downvote the shit out of the accepted answer "because". The only person being notified of the downvote is the guy who wrote it and he can't do anything about it.

Jay Carr

@falstro Absolutely, I was telling @Federico up above that it would be nice if that check box didn't exist for Stack Excahnges like ours. There's no way to verify the answer, like on SO, so it's kind of pointless and can give incorrect answers an air of authority.

@falstro Yeah, which is the part that really sucks. But at least people reading the answer later know that it's wrong. It's an idiotic solution, but it's the only one that exists.

I made a comprehensive suggestion once on how to fix the problem. Nobody on Meta even read it, they just cried "burn the which" and down voted me to hell.

-10

Q: Flagging inaccurate answers, another possible solution

Intro- Yes, this has been discussed before, but I have a different solution and some updated reasoning. Please, for the love, read the post before down voting it... (but then you can down vote it all you want, I know it's not a popular idea :) tl;dr: I personally think users should be able to ...

discussion feature-request flags answers voting

Friggin meta

falstro

Yeah, I guess the best solution would be to do away with the accepted answer concept altogether. I briefly pondered if you could have "dispute accept flag" kind of like close votes, but hey, that's what the stupid vote buttons are for. :P Either that or don't move the accepted answer to the top of the list

Jay Carr

@falstro Feel free to read up on what my idea was and suggest an even better system to Meta.

Mebbe it'll get through this time, who knows.

falstro

I dunno, "dispute accuracy" is the downvote button. It doesn't apply to this case, it's valid in one shape or form, just probably not the answer that best describes the situation

Jay Carr

17:35

@falstro Possibly, who knows... I don't think SE is going to change it's basic mechanics any time soon soo... I dunno.

Bret Copeland

This is brought up all the time across the network

294

Q: Please unpin the accepted answer from the top

Accepted answers are pinned to the top of the list of answers, even when the accepted answer is outvoted by other answers (unless it was a self-answer). I am requesting that we stop pinning the accepted answer to the top and just allow it to be in its natural sort order position. My request bas...

feature-request accepted-answer

68

Q: Let's move some negatively scored answers from the top spot

Internally, we've been discussing how we can deal with obsolete or out-of-date answers. A few weeks ago, I requested some feedback on how to encourage edits to these types of answers, while I'm still wading through everything on that post but now I'm focusing my attention on the problem of negat...

discussion feature-request accepted-answer sorting feedback

249

Q: How do we encourage edits to obsolete/out of date answers?

As the network ages and we have answers that are 7+ years old, we run into situations where changes in technology, etc. result in a once great answer becoming out-of-date, obsolete, or somewhat problematic. We don’t want to lose or delete these answers, due to legacy applications that still need...

discussion edits suggested-edits answers obsolete-information

falstro

I think I'd rather just do away with the accepted answer mechanic from aviation.SE, it just doesn't make much sense for most questions on here.

Bret Copeland

I tend to disagree. I think the accepted answer signals that the question has been answered to the satisfaction of the asker, and that's still a pretty strong signal.

falstro

good point

I agree with that

Bret Copeland

I'd be in support of unpinning negative accepted answers, and I'd be in favor of not keeping them pinned if they're wildly outscored by another answer.

falstro

17:40

the unpinning from the top, and using it as a tiebreaker is a good approach

the green check mark is very visible, and the question is marked as answered in the list so I'd be in favor of simply sorting the list by votes.

Dan Hulme

I was surprised today to see two answers both on +1/-0, and the accepted one was below the other. I think the reason is that the accepted one was a self-answer, but that still seems wrong.

Bret Copeland

Yes, accepted self-answers aren't pinned.

TomMcW

@abelenky Do you know the guys from Air Associates at OJC?

falstro

@BretCopeland only unpinning negative answers suffers from the same thing, it's a good answer gets upvotes, just not the best answer -> gets downvotes since it's pinned to the top even though it's a good answer.

The guy answering gets punished for the actions of the asker (accepting the "wrong" answer)

Bret Copeland

I didn't say it should have to be negative, just that it should have to be "wildly" outscored by another answer. What "wildly" means could be up for interpretation. Maybe it's always 10 votes, maybe it's double the votes of the accepted, I don't know. I think the threshold should generally be higher than just a vote or two though.

On Stack Overflow, the checkmark should be replaced with:

falstro

17:46

the problem is, ok, 10 votes to unpin, you've just imposed 10 downvotes on a perfectly good, although not great answer. Why not just upvote the other? They already did, but with the downvote, they can vote twice.

The problem is "the community" wants to see answer X at the top, and will jump through hoops to get it there.

so I don't see why we should have said hoops in the first place.

Bret Copeland

You have the same problem regardless of the threshold. Hmmm, the answer I like has nine votes, but the accepted one has ten, so I'm going to down vote the accepted and upvote the one I like so they swap places... I'm so powerful!

falstro

if it's outscored, it's outscored.

fair enough, but slightly different issue though.

(not related to accepted answers, just answer voting in general)

Bret Copeland

I actually think people are a bit less likely to down vote when they know that the other answer will move to the top if it simply collects enough upvotes.

Right now, they feel like they have to send a message by downvoting.

abelenky

@tommcw: I fly out of Air Associates OJC.... but I'm mainly just an occasional renter. I don't know many of the staff there.

falstro

I do agree with that. You could be right that it's strong enough to overcome a 10 vote "hysteresis"

abelenky

17:50

(I wish it was more of a social club than it seems to be. My former FBOs were big on social activities and everyone getting to know each other)

TomMcW

@abelenky My daughter bought me an introductory lesson there. Just wondered if you knew any of the CFI's

Bret Copeland

My step mom works for KCAC at OJC, but they completely got rid of their flight school and rental business.

@abelenky @TomMcW do you live in or around Olathe?

abelenky

I flew with Tanner Thompson one time, and we got along pretty well.

I live in Overland Park, close enough to OJC

Bret Copeland

I'll be back in Kansas City for about a week in September. I'm going to a conference in St. Louis, but figured since I was so close, might as well spend time with family.

TomMcW

I live in the Dotte. But I've picked up FedEx pkgs from KCAC many times.

@BretCopeland What part of town are you from?

Bret Copeland

17:59

Originally from Platte Woods, but I've also lived in Overland Park and near Brookside (where my dad now lives).

I guess technically the neighborhood I grew up in was "Royal Oaks North", but even I had to look that up. I usually say a bit north of Parkville or a little south of the airport.

Bret Copeland

18:15

The last time I was in Kansas City, I made it a point to go flying out of MKC. I had always wanted to do that as a kid. We just flew over to Lawrence (my college town) and back. My dad sat in the back seat and took video of my landings. Luckily they weren't awful.

TomMcW

19:07

@BretCopeland Do you own a plane?

Bret Copeland

No. I wish.

I rented from a flight school that day and went up with a CFI. It was probably the most pleasant flight with a CFI I've ever had because I wasn't actually trying to get checked out in the plane, just wanted to fly around.

Federico

@JayCarr sorry, I was away and could not reply earlier. I report your messagge for clarity:

2 hours ago, by Jay Carr

@Federico That is one of the major limitations of Stack Exchange. The idea of the "correct answer" check mark goes all the way back to Stack Overflow. And it supposedly meant "I tried this and it worked for my particular problem".

well, in our case it means "this is explaining what I wanted to know"

and I could not understand how that was applicable to the case in question (that I see evolved in quite a discussion here)

TomMcW

19:26

@BretCopeland Where do you usually fly out of?

Bret Copeland

FRG - Farmingdale Republic on Long Island.

Videos of me landing at LWC and at MKC that I was talking about. Not super exciting, but airplane videos never really get old.

Jay Carr

@Federico Right, I explained that later in my own little rant :)

abelenky

19:41

Well, if we're sharing our airport videos, here's me heading into Boeing Field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi7ZjstPshs

TomMcW

@BretCopeland First time I came to NY was 7/30/92. I know this because when we landed on 31R at JFK and this Tristar was still sitting there off the end of 13R, having crashed the previous evening.

Bret Copeland

@abelenky it's aviation chat. What's the point if we don't share airplane videos?

@TomMcW oh wow.

I'd like to fly into Boeing Field sometime. It's a practical flight from Boise (where I did my private pilot training).

TomMcW

19:58

@BretCopeland Was quite a sight. I was jumpseating from work at MEM. I was getting ready to leave and my wife turned on the tv. Memphis cable had a NYC station and they were showing the story (TWA843). My wife almost didn't let me go.

abelenky

20:09

I did all my flight training at Boeing Field.

I wish I could count how often I was taxiing by a 747-800 experimental or a 787, or some other unusual plane.

Bret Copeland

Those are rather large planes to be taxiing around in a single.

TomMcW

@abelenky Did u train in a 172?

abelenky

20:30

Yes, 172s.

TomMcW

@abelenky 172's must be pretty forgiving planes, being that's what pretty much everybody trains on

abelenky

The spring-steel gear are very tough for the airframe size. The plane really won't spin at all. I'd say its pretty good for novices.

Bret Copeland

Easiest planes I've flown are Piper singles.

Also kind of my least favorite.

TomMcW

Are high wings generally easier to fly?

abelenky

20:46

I feel, at least for training, high wings gives you a better view of the runway when on downwind / base. Thats when I'm looking out the window sideways to judge position.

Jay Carr

20:58

And as it turns out, you can in fact decide as a community to delete the accepted answer. How crazy is that?

Daniele Procida

I thought aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/29513/… was a pretty good question. There's nothing "broad" about it. It's naive, but there's nothing wrong with naive questions.

falstro

I agree with that. Don't think it's too broad either.

You could argue that it's too broad in the sense "have you been on every flight there has ever been?"

But that would be missing the point of the question I think

voretaq7

21:23

Woohoo, audit season is over (well, aside from writeups) and I'm back baby!

3

Dan Hulme

I think people often VTC questions of the form "why is x?" when ¬x

voretaq7

also I'm just gonna leave this here so everyone can shit themselves

Dan Hulme

because the question as written is not answerable

voretaq7

@DanHulme sure it is: The answer is "It isn't."

falstro

@voretaq7 And you're like:

Bender: Bite my shiny metal ass

►

voretaq7

21:26

@falstro I need an "I told you so" Bender meme (for when the auditor writes up a non-conformance for specifically what I predicted we'd get slapped for)

Dan Hulme

@voretaq7 well, you can give a better answer than that even: you just have to tell the questioner what they need to know instead of what they're asking

voretaq7

@DanHulme that's the longer version of "It isn't." :)

Dan Hulme

@voretaq7 are you just setting yourself up as Bender at work?

@voretaq7 I agree; I'm just reporting what I've observed on other questions and other sites

voretaq7

See also "Don't do that!" is an answer.

falstro

@voretaq7 You mean like

Futurama - We're boned

►

voretaq7

21:28

@DanHulme …there are some times I want to tell the auditors or FDA inspectors to bite my shiny metal ass… except the auditors are usually right.

Dan Hulme

I've even seen people VTC with a comment along the lines of "you can't answer this question because it is based on a false assumption" and then retract the vote when someone gives a good answer

I feel you bro

voretaq7

(our auditor however is fond of pointing out that the way the FDA insists we need to do certain things is stupid, and that we should direct the FDA to him so he can tell them to do whatever the German equivalent of biting a shiny metal ass is...)

Dan Hulme

my company is subject to surprise audits because we do food and medical projects

voretaq7

@falstro nah, we're rarely boned.

@DanHulme we're technically subject to both random audits and random FDA inspections. Both our auditors and our regional FDA office like us, and have never made a surprise visit.

falstro

@voretaq7 German is not nearly as elegant as you seem to think :P

voretaq7

21:30

(well the FDA did once, but that's because someone there put us on the inspector's schedule and nobody ever contacted us.)

@falstro I am quite certain there is a German word for metalassbiting - assembled, in true German fashion, by epoxying 3 other words together and duct-taping on a vowel sound somewhere in the middle.

(also it's funny because our auditors don't know I still speak a very little bit of German, so I can follow about half of their side conversations)

falstro

Glänzmetallarschbeißen is the closest I can get. Don't think it's right though.

But it has an ß in it, so it's probably good enough.

(Yeah, compose key rocks.)

Dan Hulme

medical projects are annoying because all our processes are based around their documentation needs, even though they're like a quarter of the projects we do

voretaq7

@falstro that's about what I would have assembled, but I imagine there's a german idiomatic for "kiss my ass" / "bite my ass" that I don't know which would be used in there

falstro

"leck mich am arsch" is the closest thing

voretaq7

(see, I come back and in less than 20 minutes the room is talking about German phrases for ass-biting. I TOTALLY ELEVATE THE LEVEL OF DISCOURSE WHEREVER I GO!)

falstro

21:37

dunno how to use it to make a single word of it though

voretaq7

I think Schleimscheißer is "ass-kisser" (lit. licker, but used in the same context as "boot-licker")

falstro

yeah Schleim - slime, scheißer - cr*pper.., but yeah, it means brown nose

Dan Hulme

@voretaq7 and after the discussion in meta.se chat about chat moderation, too

falstro

@DanHulme moderation? We're just discussing the finer nuances of germanic languages...

voretaq7

@DanHulme you mean the "guide to moderating chat" they finally got around to posting, or was there a broader discussion?

Dan Hulme

21:44

@voretaq7 there was a "Town Hall meeting" in the chat tonight

voretaq7

@DanHulme ohhh, yeah I don't go into the tavern on the meta

I'm a sysadmin, they would be obligated to try to kill me, and I would be obligated to burn the place to the ground with everyone inside :)

(after taking all the good booze, of course. We're not HEATHENS over on the ops side of the fence!)

Dan Hulme

@voretaq7 I'm unable to evaluate your claim to not be a heathen unless you specify the nature of this "good booze"

voretaq7

@DanHulme Most whisky old enough to vote, or a decent rye. Certain vodkas (for me it would be Ketel One). Absinthe if it's the real shit (and developers probably drink the real shit). Maybe a few other things.

falstro

@voretaq7 Whiskey old enough to drink?

voretaq7

The dregs (bathtub-grade gin, Georgi vodka, etc.) are more useful as accelerants.

Heidel Ber Gensis

21:49

hi..

voretaq7

@falstro There are many good whiskies that are not old enough to buy themselves :)

(there are some good bourbons that aren't old enough to vote too, but they're exceptions)

Heidel Ber Gensis

dear pilots.. got a little question.. anyone can tell me what the model of the aircraft in this facebook video: facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/2294781687211544

voretaq7

@HeidelBerGensis Greetings, welcome to Aviation Happy Hour!

(Please do not drink the 100LL)

falstro

@voretaq7 which is probably good, or you'd only find empty bottles on the shelves...

Heidel Ber Gensis

@voretaq7 we at travel.SE have other boring activities, like bounty bonanza and stuff.. didnt know you have a happy hour here :/

falstro

21:50

@HeidelBerGensis Looks like an Ikarus C42

but a little hard to tell from that angle

Heidel Ber Gensis

@falstro thanks.. i will check and confirm..

voretaq7

@falstro …strut-braced high wing, side-by-side seating, center stick, 2-seater... seems plausible to me

Heidel Ber Gensis

thank you guys.. now I have something "useful" to spend the coming few hours on..

voretaq7

(good thing you're here 'cuz there's no way I would have been able to pick that out from that angle, even as a wild guess!)

Heidel Ber Gensis

like checking schools that has this model, then make a plan.. and then in the morning forget about it.. as usual :)

voretaq7

21:54

@HeidelBerGensis Looking for something to take lessons in?

Heidel Ber Gensis

@voretaq7 not really.. but it is been a dream to learn flying.. not to be a pilot per se.. I am a cabin crew management... nothing can make me trade this job.. but I love the idea of being able to fly something small..

i got the money, i can arrange the time.. but the will.. got its peeks like now..

falstro

@HeidelBerGensis where are you from?

Dan Hulme

I have two bottles of whisky open: one is 10, the other 12

voretaq7

@HeidelBerGensis Stuff along similar lines would be a Cessna 152 (probably find a bunch of flight schools with those), or the SportCruiser (not as common, part of the newer generation of "light sport" planes like the C42)

just to throw some other options out there in case the schools near you don't have C42s on the flight line :)

Heidel Ber Gensis

@voretaq7 I know cessna, i am quite ok with the aviation knowledge.. but it is a boring plane... lol

voretaq7

21:59

@HeidelBerGensis sniffle noooobody loves the 152... It'll just be over there in the tiedown doing touch-and-gos in place in a stiff wind :)

Heidel Ber Gensis

I live between Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.. but I am not planning to take a course in any of these two countries.. the plan should be fun, that includes a new country to add my list.. and a new language would be fine as well..

voretaq7

@DanHulme mix them together and get 22? That's how it works right? :)

falstro

@voretaq7 no, that'd only increase the alcohol content

Heidel Ber Gensis

thanks again guys.. have a great day/nigh/evening...

voretaq7

@HeidelBerGensis Just remember the price for aircraft identification services is a selfie when you go up :)

Heidel Ber Gensis

22:04

@voretaq7 :)

falstro

@HeidelBerGensis good night

damnit, it's past midnight again. :P

voretaq7

@falstro "It's not tomorrow until after you sleep."

falstro

@voretaq7 Then I'll just stay up and it'll be wednesday aaaall weeeeeeeeeeeek!

Bret Copeland

@voretaq7 welcome back!

voretaq7

@falstro Do you really want it to be Wednesday all week? That's almost as bad as it being Monday all week :/

@BretCopeland <does happy dance>

falstro

22:06

@voretaq7 I didn't think the /s was necessary there... ;)

Bret Copeland

@voretaq7 are you doing any flying lately?

falstro

I do miss my favorite coffee shop in Gothenburg. On Mondays, they'd put little stickers on your takeaway cup saying "Monday, finally!". Almost made Mondays tolerable.

Anyway, off to bed I go.

Bret Copeland

'night

voretaq7

@BretCopeland Not enough :/ I actually just got to go up last Friday evening after like 40 days.

Bret Copeland

I'm finally going to go Monday afternoon.

Haven't been in two months.

voretaq7

22:17

Weather permitting I might go bounce around this weekend, but I'm afraid to look at the weather because if I do it's going to rain or some shit

Bret Copeland

At the moment, it actually looks pretty good for this weekend.

voretaq7

yeah, and the thundershowers that were supposed to appear this week seem to have decided not to

Bret Copeland

Which was nice. I went to the Mets game last night. It was supposed to rain, but didn't.

voretaq7

@BretCopeland and they managed to win which is always comforting what with half the team being on the DL

Bret Copeland

well... I'm from Kansas City, and wasn't exactly rooting for the Mets last night.

TomMcW

22:20

Oh no... Mets fans! I should probably get outta here!

Bret Copeland

I haven't watched the afternoon game yet today. No spoilers!

voretaq7

@BretCopeland . . . I will refrain from reading you the score from my iOS notification screen.

Bret Copeland

@TomMcW it occasionally feels a bit awkward wearing a Royals shirt here in New York. Especially during the WS.

voretaq7

@BretCopeland it'll be fine. We only lynch Boston fans.

Dan Hulme

aww, you guys: I've flown every Sunday for the last four weeks

voretaq7

22:22

and honestly that's 'cuz they're more insufferable than the Yankees fans.

@DanHulme <jealous>

Dan Hulme

and that's with my tiny crosswind limit

Bret Copeland

Every Sunday sounds great.

Dan Hulme

still can't reliably land tho' :'-(

Bret Copeland

You're doing PPL training right now?

voretaq7

actually now that crazy audit season is mostly over Imma try to get my ass up more before/after work

Dan Hulme

22:24

not right now: on Sundays :-)

Bret Copeland

I flew 2-3 times per week during PPL training, but that was the only period when I flew consistently.

voretaq7

@BretCopeland Incidentally Friday was my first time landing on 14 since they redid the approach lights - it looks like a real big-boy airport now!

Bret Copeland

I also blew through money consistently.

oh really?

I don't think I've landed on 14 more than once or twice ever.

voretaq7

yeah the lack of flying has done small wonders for my bank account...

(very small, because other expenses appeared to take its place, but still…)

Bret Copeland

Money is sort of like the consolation prize for not flying.

4

voretaq7

22:25

I think I've landed on it maybe 3 or 4 times - all at night/dusk too now that I think of it

Bret Copeland

I know it was the first runway I took off from and landed on at FRG. It was a morning flight. I'm honestly not sure I've ever landed on it since.

Dan Hulme

yeah, my friend and I have a post-flying ritual of going to the pub and buying the Weihenstephan, which is ridiculously expensive here

because if we haven't been flying, we've saved enough money to pay for it

and if we have been flying, the price of the beer is tiny in comparison

voretaq7

just remember:
!FRG 11/038 FRG RWY 1/19 CLSD TO SKED AIR CARRIER ACFT MORE THAN 9 PAX 1512010500-1712010500
!FRG 11/037 FRG RWY 1/19 CLSD TO UNSCHEDULED AIR CARRIER ACFT MORE THAN 30 PAX 1512010500-1712010500
!FRG WE ARE NEVER MOVING THESE HANGARS HAHAHAHAHA GET STUFFED

@DanHulme We lack good beer near our airport :(

Bret Copeland

I'm strongly leaning towards moving away from New York in the near future, and I'm really excited to be able to go flying more after that since I'll have more money, and should be a lot closer to an airport.

Dan Hulme

@voretaq7 this is at my local pub, on the way home

voretaq7

22:30

@BretCopeland Yeah, NYC proper sucks for aviation - FRG and HPN are both inconvenient to get to, and nobody wants to spend HPN money anyway

Bret Copeland

I'm thinking of just moving back to Boise. Everything's cheap there, I have lots of friends, and there's a decent amount of good flying weather.

voretaq7

I'm not sure I could ever leave NY (everyone who was born & raised here and leaves always seems miserable for the decision), but by god I could fly a lot more if I lived in the middle of nowhere and worked remotely.

Bret Copeland

yeah, well, I'm a transplant. I grew up in Kansas City and Boise.

I think I'll do just fine leaving New York.

2/3 of engineers at Stack are remote anyway.

voretaq7

I could probably do about 80% of my job remotely

problem is our executives tend to get pissy and defensive when told "No" and it's easier to calm them down when you're in the office.

Bret Copeland

Are you considering at all flying to AirVenture this summer?

TomMcW

22:44

Is FRG under a class B shelf?

Bret Copeland

yep

TomMcW

Does that make it a pain in the anus?

Bret Copeland

Not really. Working around or through the bravo isn't as big of a deal as people probably assume.

voretaq7

@TomMcW Basically it means "Don't go West" and "Watch your climb"

Bret Copeland

You do have to be aware of it, as well as lots of other airspace including a charlie just to the East, and deltas all over the place.

voretaq7

22:48

(and like Bret said getting cleared through the NY class B isn't really a big deal - as long as you can get a word in on the frequency they'll usually make it work for you)

Bret Copeland

You just plan your flight to stay clear, and if you want to try to go through, you call up New York Approach, say what you want to do, and they'll either say yes or no.

TomMcW

What do you have to do for delta? Do you have to contact ATC?

Bret Copeland

New York controllers are surprisingly nice. I've heard stories of other (much less busy) airspaces with asshole controllers who don't want you to bug them or ask to go through their airspace.

voretaq7

@BretCopeland I thought about Airventure, but I've got a friend getting inconveniently married (first wedding) that weekend

Bret Copeland

@TomMcW yeah

TomMcW

22:50

What's diff btw c and d?

Bret Copeland

FRG is a pretty busy delta, so they kind of have their own flavor of "standard terminology"

C has radar services.

voretaq7

(to be followed by a second celebratory wedding which I did toy with the idea of flying to but I'm not sure how I feel about this)

@BretCopeland "Remain outside the class delta while we talk the trainee in off the ledge, you bastards broke another one." isn't standard phraseology?

Bret Copeland

You don't want to land on the grass?

voretaq7

@BretCopeland Landing on the grass I'm OK with, I'm less sanguine about tying down on the grass for 4 days

Bret Copeland

I'm sure it'd be fine.

voretaq7

22:56

It's also one of those "I think I'll make a day-trip there to scout the approach and see how I feel about this…" airports, might do that early next month

Bret Copeland

I've only landed on a grass strip once as a passenger, and never as a pilot.

TomMcW

Had all the airspace stuff in my head at one point, but it feel out somewhere

voretaq7

I did it once after I got the Cherokee (before the new paint), just to have done it. It's... "different" :)

Bret Copeland

Charlies, because of the radar thing, also has a mode-C transponder requirement, but seriously, who flies around in 2016 without a transponder?

voretaq7

the other thing about that airport is it's a one-way runway (land 02, depart 20) which is why I want to go scout it

Bret Copeland

22:58

I think FRG tower would be extremely annoyed at no-transponder traffic.

voretaq7

@BretCopeland All those funny little flying shopping bags at Bayport with no electrical system? :)

(the wing-shaped flying shopping bags, not the lumpy hot-air-filled ones, just to be clear)

Bret Copeland

I'm gonna guess they don't have much interaction with ATC.

Is your plane ADS-B ready?

voretaq7

@BretCopeland ugh, don't remind me :(

(it may happen next year otherwise 2018. The FAA is apparently actually waving money at us now so I might take advantage of that offer. $500 is $500 :)

Shalvenay

@voretaq7 ...and I doubt that basing out of TEB would be a fun experience.

@voretaq7 also, how about KMPO for that celebratory wedding? (it is 8mi away-- but way better provisioned)

voretaq7

@Shalvenay you can basically see Flying Dollar from the hotel/resort :)

Shalvenay

23:12

@voretaq7 ah

voretaq7

though I wouldn't rule out MPO, might see if they'll pick us up from there too

(I am the antifrugal: I'll fly in to spend NY Hotel Prices getting boozy at my friends' wedding, but I won't rent a damn car if I do!)

SIGNING A RENTAL CAR AGREEMENT IS A BRIDGE TOO FAR SIR!

(seriously though US rental car agreements make airplane rental agreements seem downright civilized)

Shalvenay

@voretaq7 there's probably something dumb behind every clause in the agreement...

also, I have an interesting fear-of-flying-ish question from my own family -- my mom is fine when the plane is straight and level, but has a terrible time with both turbulence and maneuvering flight -- are there things that could be looked into to help her acclimate to such things, or is this an odd case where the typical solutions wouldn't work so well?

voretaq7

23:47

@Shalvenay hey, my mother won't get into anything with less than two engines and they damn well better be jet turbines so you're already a step ahead :)

the couple of passengers I've had that were freaked out by maneuvering flight did better after I let them have the controls for a bit (though at last 2 people I've flown with are deathly afraid of the yoke and want nothing to do with it, so that's probably not a universal fix).

Shalvenay

@voretaq7 actually -- this is just on commercial jets -- I'm not sure what she'd think of going up a C172 or somesuch

voretaq7

@Shalvenay ahhhh, that's a little tougher - does your mom get motion sick, or just uncomfortable?

Shalvenay

@voretaq7 I don't believe it's motionsickness per se -- but she does get very uncomfortable (she also has problems with rollercoasters, and low blood pressure)

voretaq7

some people just don't enjoy the sensation of motion (especially "dropping" motion like turbulence, and doubly so when they're not in control of the motion) - not much to be done there, and the usual cure is valium or similar

If that's the case getting her up in something like a 172 on a calm day with an instructor might even be helpful. If it's more related to motion sickness/nausea/discomfort than fear though I don't think a small plane would help the situation and I'd suggest trying something like the relief band

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