The Hangar

Terry

01:39

I just tried to address a comment to @Flambino in response to a comment he made to me. However, it didn't present his name when I typed an 'f' after the @. Then, when I typed the entire @Flambino as the first characters of my response, my comment got posted without that. Has anyone else had this trouble recently?

Shalvenay

@Terry that's because he's the OP of the post you're commenting on, so he'll get notified anyway

Terry

@Shalvenay Ah, thank you. Live and learn as they say. Unfortunately it seems that my learning has been far outstripped by my living.

Shalvenay

@Terry laughs no worries man. The Stack is full of little quirks like that

kind of like autothrottle hold mode on the 777 just less dire in consequence.

Terry

@Shalvenay Autothrottle? What's that? Oh, yes, that's the thing they always told us not to use because it would cause maintenance problems. I believe there may have also been a rule that anyone writing up an autothrottle problem would be throttled, or something like that.

Shalvenay

@Terry yeah -- it caused Asiana 214 a bit more than a maintenance problem -- but that was half the crew not understanding how their plane worked :/ I'm not sure what either of the accident pilots would do if they found themselves sitting next to you in your Cub

@Terry -- I'm sure you could have shaken their fear of visual approaches out of them though

falstro

14:01

May want to step back a bit quicker. https://t.co/cjAICmvTYp

Tweeted by AwardsDarwin on January 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM

Dan Hulme

@falstro is he trying to inspect the prop?

falstro

Either that or he's horribly inept at hand-propping

Dan Hulme

well, he didn't look like he was expecting it to start

if that were a tail dragger he would have a neat slice missing out of his middle

Federico

14:24

@falstro boy, that twitter account is .... something.

falstro

@Federico you don't know the Darwin Awards?

Federico

@falstro I know them, I did not know this particular twitter account. is it an "official" one from the org behind the awards?

falstro

ok, yeah, I don't know if it's official. Just wanted to make sure you were familiar with the premise. ;)

Jay Carr

@Federico I don't believe there is an official group behind the "awards" as it were. It's just people saying, "yeah, Darwnin award right there" when someone does something exceptionally stupid that makes them unable to reproduce (including, obviously, death.) So, lucky for that guy, he's not a real candidate for the award. Looked kind of like an accident to me...

Federico

@JayCarr I thought it got a little more "organized" with the creation of the website and the books.

falstro

14:37

@JayCarr I think darwinawards.com is what people consider the 'official' one

Jay Carr

@Federico lol, well, I guess someone had to make some money off the idea, eh?

falstro

also here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards

Jay Carr

@falstro Huh, interesting. I guess that's about as official as it gets right there.

casey

that website sprung out of usenet in the mid 80's. it wasn't so much that they capitalized on an idea and monetized it, they created the idea in the first place.

Jay Carr

@casey Right, I see the continuity, at the same time, I doubt they were the first people to ever hear a story about someone idiotically killing themselves and think to themselves "natural selection". But yeah, it seems to have some precedent.

casey

14:55

@JayCarr yea, i'm sure they weren't the first to do that, just the first to decide to put up a website to enshrine "winners" forever.

Jay Carr

@casey Fair 'nuff

falstro

@JayCarr Probably not, I'm guessing that was Darwin himself. ;)

Jay Carr

15:31

@falstro lol, it's probably how the whole theory got rolling in the first place ;)

Jay Carr

19:39

Every time I go and look at this question I consider editing it again:

96

Q: Can Microsoft Flight Simulator help me learn to fly (or make me a better pilot)?

Microsoft Flight Simulator has "flight lessons" with a virtual flight instructor, some of which teach concepts that are taught during actual flight training. These simulators are becoming very realistic, and I can see them being helpful as an introduction to a subject prior to running the hobbs ...

I almost feel like it should be turned into a community wiki, it's just...not up to date anymore. I suggested a fix once a while back and nothing was ever done. Should I just edit it myself? Any thoughts?

voretaq7

@JayCarr What do you want to change about it? :)

Jay Carr

I think the books listed could use some updating and, my pet peeve, it's just incorrect about radios. PilotEdge actually uses real ATC folks to run their radios, it's used for training in small schools all the time. It's a great way to learn radios.

So...that part's wrong, and other parts need updating.

I mean, it's one of our most popular questions, would be nice if it was accurate...

fooot

Well they do mention VATSIM.

voretaq7

@JayCarr Not everyone uses PilotEdge (though I'm pretty sure it's an option in all the sims these days).

Jay Carr

VATSIM doesn't really involve professionals and it's not voice as I recall.

fooot

19:44

Well VATSIM is volunteer, but they are generally good quality, if ATC is available its almost always in voice.

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 The fact that people don't use it, doesn't mean it isn't useful. The question was if flight sims could teach you how to fly, not if many people are using it for such.

voretaq7

@JayCarr VATSIM has voice capabilities. They're not all professionals, but most of them are up to a pretty high standard (similar to the virtual airlines they control).

Jay Carr

@fooot It's probably getting better all the time, for sure. May end up having two high end choices before too long.

@voretaq7 You'd know better than me, if you've used them and think they make for some good training... All I'm saying is that it's viable to train for radios these days on a flight sim.

fooot

Yeah if there's an event you have pretty realistic coverage. They may not always be exactly by the book but neither is the real world.

Jay Carr

And it's a fairly recent development, so I don't think the answer reflects that.

voretaq7

19:46

I wouldn't have a problem if the responses there were edited to include PilotEdge (or a new answer added highlighting the changes). Really the crux of the answer is "Flight simulators can help for some stuff, but they're not really a substitute for actual flight instruction"

@fooot PilotEdge controllers aren't always by the book either because their coverage area is pretty small and can get crowded. Their controllers get creative when they have to :)

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 So if I moved "Radios" up into the "Helpful" section and mentioned VATSIM is much improved plus there is Pilot Edge, that would be okay?

voretaq7

@JayCarr I'd be OK with it, if abelenky disagrees they'll revert your edit :)

Jay Carr

lol, fair enough.

fooot

Yeah, it doesn't belong with the other two perfectly valid points.

voretaq7

Having spoken to the PilotEdge folks and used their service I would consider it to be helpful especially if you didn't train at a towered field or in busy airspace.

I would also give good money for someone sucking in ADS-B data and populating airplanes in the simulator based on it, but I think we're a couple of years away from that still...

Jay Carr

19:51

@voretaq7 Updated it, I guess we'll see if he decides to roll it back.

And it's good to know you think PilotEdge really is all that helpful. One of these days when I finally get to start training, I plane on getting a membership there so I can get comfortable on the radios.

@fooot Do you think my edit was fair? I did my best to qualify the effectiveness of the system...

fooot

@JayCarr Looks good to me.

Jay Carr

@fooot Awesome pawsome.

fooot

I control/fly on VATSIM. One time we had a Spirit Airlines pilot getting ready for a checkride. Another time there was a guy who used to work at Miami Center and he was pretty impressed.

Jay Carr

@fooot I'm always a little leery of free services. I've always been a "you get what you pay for" sort of person. But if there's a good community...

Though, you did mention that it kinda depends on if there is an event going on or not.

The one nice thing about PilotEdge is they have hours they are always there, and they always have professionals so... There is that stability, which is nice.

fooot

Yeah, VATSIM is spotty if there isn't some kind of event. It's pretty good for free though, most places seem to have good communities training controllers.

I think PilotEdge has more of an effect on pilots... anyone can get on and "fly" with VATSIM, but paying for access on PilotEdge probably means a bit higher standard of other folks in the air with you.

voretaq7

19:57

Yeah PilotEdge guarantees there will be someone to talk to during their operating hours (even if they're working 7-8 sectors because it's not busy enough to have more people). VATSIM usually has someone around but they're not paid to be there so if there's nobody to talk to they'll knock off and go to the pub :P

@fooot The big advantage to PilotEdge is they're working off the actual FAA materials (procedures, LOAs, etc.) with the intent to teach you to operate in the real system. They may be a few months behind on some changes, but they're geared toward being a training environment.

So if you go and do a bunch of sim time prepping for your checkride with PilotEdge controllers you can be pretty sure that's how you're going to be treated when you key the mic at your home field.

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 Aren't they also working with some schools to do training?

Like, they have schools that use them for their simulator radios or something?

voretaq7

@JayCarr They have a thing with the Redbird flight sim folks, and a LOT of schools have the Redbird simulators

fooot

Yeah, VATSIM tries to use current procedures too. But probably not quite as up to date with LOAs and all. But if you ask a good controller they may be able to help you out.

voretaq7

so when you use the radio in the Redbird you're talking to PilotEdge controllers

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 I keep thinking of getting one of those really cheap redbirds that AOPA helped develop. Do they come with a subscription to PilotEdge?

voretaq7

20:01

VATSIM's problem is it's kind-of decentralized so there's no one person there responsible for FOIA-ing all the FAA procedures and training the VATSIM controllers on them. PilotEdge actually prods the FAA and gets them to send over all the documentation :)

@JayCarr I don't know if their home simulators do, but you could almost certainly add it on.

fooot

@voretaq7 What procedures do you mean?

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 I almost feel an obligation to buy it, just because it's got the same name as me.

voretaq7

@fooot Things like the LOAs between centers, local center memos, the ATC orders (most of which you can get off the FAA website), etc. -- basically all the paper that defines what they're supposed to tell you to do over the radio

@JayCarr That's actually not a bad deal - I don't know that I could put together a simulator for less than that if I went out and bought the parts :)

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 Doesn't look like it includes pedals though, which is a bit annoying. Plus it's Prepare3D and I really prefer X-Plane. But it would be awful nice to have it all in one tight package.

voretaq7

@JayCarr Yeah looks like pedals are an extra $500, I'd consider that a "must-buy" too

…in fact I'd consider all their "optional equipment" must-haves :)

Jay Carr

20:10

@voretaq7 Yeah, it's kind of odd they didn't just include them. It's not really a sim if you're missing an entire axis of control.

voretaq7

@JayCarr Just fly an Ercoupe.

Jay Carr

lolz. Maybe I'll just get this one instead: simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/ams

@voretaq7 Do you know people at redbird and at pilotedge?

voretaq7

@JayCarr I know a few controllers for PilotEdge, no real contacts at Redbird though.

mark

hey fellow flyers. I was directed here after asking a question about a C172 purchase I'm considering. aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/24770/…. Wondering if anyone would care to weigh in?

voretaq7

@JayCarr I want to find somewhere that has their crosswind simulator and try it out. I've heard good things about it.

Jay Carr

20:14

@voretaq7 Ah, well, there you go. I need me some connects with someone who works in aviation or at least aviation simulation. It's getting to this point at my current place where I'm starting to consider other options. Not that I don't like my job, I just would rather get a job doing more something that I want to do...

@mark Thinking @voretaq7 might have a good opinion on that one.

voretaq7

I thought we had a generic "What kind of stuff should I look at when shopping for an airplane" question but now i can't find it :P

Jay Carr

And @fooot and @mark you know, just so no one feels left out.

fooot

@voretaq7 I linked it in a comment. Took a while to find though.

voretaq7

@mark The 172 is a nice plane (even if the wings were put on wrong) at the factory - a lot of it comes down to condition and maintenance

mark

@voretaq7 I've gone through a few FAQ's on what to look for. I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on this particular deal.

I'm heading out to take a look this weekend both at the plane and the books.

I'd actually be buying into a company that owns the plane. The owners all pay $100 a month plus $75 wet for using it.

voretaq7

20:18

For a 1/5 share it's kind of a toss-up as to whether I'd ask a mechanic to do a prebuy on it (depends how comfortable you are looking at the plane mechanically and how well you know the 172: If I were buying another Cherokee I'd know all the places to look, if I were buying a Cessna I'd only know a few "well-known trouble spots")

Jonathan Walters

@mark Anything in particular that you are looking for? I have lots of C172M flight time, and a fair bit of maintenance time as well.

mark

Ya i wasn't sure on that. I do have a mechanic friend I could get to take a quick peak

Jonathan Walters

How familiar are you with the type? I mean, not with this plane in particular, but with the 172M?

mark

@JonathanWalters I've been flying 172's (not the M) for the past few years although this being a potential first purchase I haven't done anything with maintenance

voretaq7

Big ticket items though: Engine (you said it was recently overhauled so that's good) & 2020 ADS-B Out compliance (depends what kind of avionics it has how much that's going to cost. Ask me in a few weeks how painful that can be 'cuz I'm talking to the avionics shop Monday)

mark

20:21

I can't remember does anyone know if the 2020 compliance is in canada?

voretaq7

@mark oh I have no idea what the Canadian requirements are -- I know if it is required it's going to be 1090ES (transponder-based) though :)

Jonathan Walters

Yeah, no idea about Canadian ADSB requirements

I will say that the 172M is a great plane, great engine

fooot

Good question for the site?

mark

@fooot good point

Jonathan Walters

@fooot Yeah, does sound like a good question

mark

20:23

I think that it is not required but I'm not positive on that.

voretaq7

@fooot . . . first instinct is "Yes" (something like "I know XYZ is required in the US by 2020, are there equivalent requirements in Canada?")

Do we have a US ADS-B requirements question yet?

Jonathan Walters

As far as maintenance, I would look at the battery box for corrosion. Not going to make you fall out of the sky, but you might lose electrical at a bad time.

mark

however, I would be restricted flying down to the south

voretaq7

@mark I think light GA may be exempt in Canada but I'm not 100% certain.

mark

I found this bcaviation.ca/bcga-news/… which talks about it a bit.

fooot

20:24

@voretaq7 This seems to cover it...

18

Q: What is ADS-B and who needs it?

I read that ADS-B is required by the year 2020. What does this mean? What is ADS-B used for, and who needs it?

faa-regulations avionics ads-b

voretaq7

@JonathanWalters battery box corrosion is a big one - can involve expensive skin and paint repairs too if the box vents are plugged

Jonathan Walters

@voretaq7 Yep

voretaq7

Another good one is to check out the firewall - I know 172s that have had "unpleasant" landing experiences may have firewall damage as a result.

Jonathan Walters

Not seen any expensive repairs yet, but did a lot of work cleaning out a 177 and a 172 recently

voretaq7

IDK if there's as much of a problem on the 172 as there is on the 177 but checking for corrosion where the wings join to the fuselage is also important - can usually check that by popping out an inspection panel and snaking a scope in.

mark

20:26

what are your thoughts on the arrangement of the partnership? Does that sound fairly typical?

voretaq7

@mark Having an LLC own the plane and people buy in is pretty typical these days, yeah.

Jay Carr

@voretaq7 Abelensky rolled back the answer and threw a hissy fit, guess the old answer is sticking.

Jonathan Walters

@mark From the little I know, the deal and arrangements sound good, don't raise any red flags. I fly a 172M with over 25,000 hours time on the airframe, quite a bit of damage history, and we often take the engines to 4-6000 hours.

Its still a great airplane, flies straight, no real issues

mark

@voretaq7@JonathanWalters thanks. It sounds ok to me but I don't really have much (anything) to compare against.

@JayCarr thanks for pointing me here. I didn't realize this chat existed.

Jay Carr

@mark Eh, I do what I can. Not many people are aware of it, but it's a great place for questions that require more of a discussion for sure.

Jonathan Walters

20:39

@mark Another thing that I just thought of, probably won't be an issue with your airplane, but the cowling can be an issue. Look for obvious wear, especially around the prop, and look for missing or loose fasteners.

Not a huge deal, but some cowling repairs can be a headache

mark

@JonathanWalters will do thanks

user183836

21:12

when there is a dent in an 172 wing and the instructor says "oh, maintenance knows about that", what should you do?

voretaq7

@Dawn Ask to see the log book entry where it was measured and compared to the limits in the maintenance manual :)

user183836

okay thanks! sounds like i might miss out on this booking

user183836

cause of time

voretaq7

heh in reality if it's not a huge dent it'll probably get handwaved

on the other hand if it's big enough for you to notice (and "it wasn't there last time we flew!") it might be worth investigating further

(at least to know how it happened)

user183836

i don't know all of these aircraft yet

user183836

21:15

so dent could have been there for 10 years for all i know

user183836

this is why i like composite wings :P

user183836

no dents

user183836

or if there is a dent, the wing is done

voretaq7

"Dent" is one of those slightly ambiguous terms - to some people it's a little ding the size of a dime, to others it's a softball-sized divot in the wing

I'd probably ignore the former, but flip my wig over the latter

user183836

this one is like... deviates about half an inch from where it should be at its deepest point, and the area of the entire dent is hand sized

voretaq7

21:17

@Dawn Yeah if there's a dent in composites it's usually accompanied by cracks, and you'll be in the maintenance hangar for a while.

user183836

katana inspections so easy

voretaq7

@Dawn . . . like someone leaned on the wing checking the fuel and put their hand between the rivet lines instead of on them? :P

user183836

yeah, kinda like that, but it's near the tip

user183836

maybe a bird

voretaq7

Yeah I might ask one of the maintenance folks how it happened, just from idle curiosity then

user183836

21:21

in the 172 engine fire in flight checklist, why fuel shutoff before mixture cut-off. is this arbitrary? or is it definitely better to do fuel shutoff before mixture cut-off? will putting fuel selector to off first but leaving the mixture at its current setting for that small amount of time make sure that the line empties between the engine and the fuel shutoff valve?

voretaq7

@Dawn Pulling the mixture still has fuel going into the engine compartment (all the way up to the carburetor). Shutting off the fuel at the fuel selector stops it at that valve (on your side of the firewall)

Not sure about the relative merits of which order you do them in, but your engine will continue to run on what's in the fuel strainer and lines after you turn off the selector in the cabin, and if a fuel line burns through or breaks in the engine compartment it will continue to gush fuel until you turn off the fuel selector

user183836

ah, so pulling mixture first, and fuel selector off second would trap fuel in the line between the carb and the selector valve?

voretaq7

@Dawn Theoretically yeah, but if you do it quickly and the engine doesn't die from fuel starvation before you pull the mixture there's still fuel in the system.

perhaps less than if you did it in the reverse order but we're also not talking huge quantities of fuel - maybe a pint or two depending on the plumbing

SMSvonderTann

21:35

Well, congrats to Boeing for the first B737MAX flight today!

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