@Federico -- are you sure it's only some crews? a safety stand-down day would be a plausible reaction by management to such a catastrophe...

I work in (rail) transportation myself -- and employee fatalities are bad enough. I can only imagine just how much grief and sadness must be coursing through LH's halls right now...

@Shalvenay given the proportion of the flights that have flown vs the cancelled ones, I would say reasonably sure.

Morning!

Morning !

Everyone is speculating hypoxia but there must have been an additional problem to cause the descent. AvHerald reports the CVR has been found and is damaged but usable

@DanHulme I have to admit that given the data available (no lateral deviation, controlled descent apparently within the autopilot's limits) hypoxia in the middle of resetting the target altitude (or something of the sort) does not seem too outlandish as speculation.

@Federico yeah, it's speculation, but that's my reasoning as well; maybe even a V/S mode

@falstro afaik you have to set both target altitude and target V/S on those machines. I still have to speak with my father, so I am not sure if the autopilot would accept a command containing only one of the two inputs.

@Federico ok, yeah, that might be, I'm obviously not an A320 driver :)

@falstro my father is, that's why I want to speak with him

@Federico yup, I figured

which airline is he with?

Alitalia, if we can call it still with that name

@Federico heh, why not? that's what they're called, no?

@falstro Technically since 2008 Alitalia does not exist anymore. It's "CAI": Alitalia is the failed company and CAI has bought the "good part" including the rights to use the name (to avoid the expenses of re-labeling all the aircrafts)

and then now there is Ethiad

@Federico ah, ok, cool. Didn't know that

It was a A320 as well

I am getting a bit enraged with colleagues at work saying: "See where cost saving brought us? 24 years old plane! A shame!"

@Federico ah, I remember that one, I thought it was a Boeing

@SentryRaven PUNCH THEM IN THE FACE! ;)

I work with them... I can't...

@SentryRaven Nobody at work would dream of saying that to me. They know how old the planes I fly are :-)

@SentryRaven hire someone to do the dirty job.

@DeltaLima You got quoted by a German newspaper: tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/…

heh

"Bild: DeltaLima / StackExchange / Eurocontrol"

@SentryRaven that's swiss though right?

@falstro You are right, my mistake.

@falstro you have to hand it to them, they properly attributed the image :)

Ouch..

hard crash for it to be that deformed...

at least the actual container for the data storage isn't that damaged

Looking at the data from FR24, it was doing a constant Mach descent until it reached Vmo. The rest of descent was at Vmo. Impact speed would have been around 370 knots...

the data is in the upright cylinder, right?

Yes, there is a good change of it being recoverable

it won't be reusable but it served its purpose ;)

"It will buff out"

Are these the FDR or CVR?

CVR, according to avherald and other sources

FDR not yet found

@DeltaLima 'tis but a scratch

I read somewhere that the CVR was partially analyzed already and that there were load cracking sounds to be heard, indicating a windshield failure. Were any of these confirmed or still speculation?

cracking can be anything

from a loose wire causeing interference to a old captains seat

ouch

@SentryRaven How long should we wait until you'll replace ATIS information with ATIS? :)

Ohh... edited in my answer...

I'll leave the question to you, what was the new word you learned?

@SentryRaven Already forgot that :P

Although the title can be kept as is... Can ATIS information be found.... sounds correct.

Pleonasm!

To which the proper response is: Bless you!

@SentryRaven That's fine.

@SentryRaven Wow. Just wow... First I've seen of any of the coverage. That's... wow...

the video of the debris field is horrifying

nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000003590536/…?

controlled flight into terrain I guess

in VFR, with TAWS/GPWS

"Investigators said they had so far been unable to retrieve any data from the plane’s cockpit voice recorder, and the inquiry has been hampered further, an official said, by the discovery that the second black box, which was found on Wednesday, was severely damaged, and its memory card dislodged and missing."

VMC you mean

The last report I read says they have already retrieved the data from the CVR and are analyzing

In German though: austrianwings.info/2015/03/…

maybe our planes need a "engineering helm" at the back of the cabin, akin to the helm in the engineering room of the Enterprise

possibly the problem with the CVF is that the investigating team is french and the recording is in german. they think its garbled?

maybe they played it backwards...

"paul is dead..."

According to the NYT the FDR has been found and is severely damaged:

"The official said that workers on the scene had found the casing of the second black box, the flight data recorder, which investigators had hoped would provide significant information about the flight, including its speed, altitude and direction. But he said that the crash had severely damaged the box, and that the vital memory chip inside it had been dislodged."

nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/…

@DeltaLima yes, same thing I reported from the same source :)

@rbp, I see that now, missed that earlier :-)

my bet given what i know: simultaneous failure of all flight computers (it's Airbus) or hydraulic failure

still too many unknowns to narrow it down to those two

depressurization

that's why it's a "bet"

depressurzation also seems likely because the descent was reported at Vmo, which is SOP

@kevin I doubt that. I am looking at the ADS-B data and I combine it with a weather model. I am not yet finished but it seems that the speed profile is consistent with a constant Mach descent until it hit Vmo. From there the speed profile follows Vmo until impact. That, to me, indicates that there was some kind of control system and some kind of envelope protection active.

I see. Then it gets more interesting... oxygen masks not working??

+1 @DeltaLima

both masks would have to have failed. they are independent of each other

(assuming you mean cockpit)

@kevin That kind of conclusion is hard to draw from surveillance and meteo data. Both the control inputs and the envelope protection can be either human or electronic.

If it's human, then one have to explain why they didn't pull up.

(I'd be damned if it's because both pilots focused on checklists and didn't fly the airplane)

@rbp Disaster Porn?

@voretaq7 more like snuff film. :(

@voretaq7 sadness

It's quite a wreck - did they find the data card from the FDR yet?

@DeltaLima Is Vmo the max rate of descent used when the cabin has depressurized, max rate of descent in general, or something totally different?

@FreeMan Vmo is the maximum mach (like airspeed) that will not break the airplane, like Vne

Vmo is the regulatory maximum operating airspeed of an aircraft. You should not fly any faster.

its not about breaking the plane?

@rbp Vmo = maximum operating speed (in knots), Vne = never exeed airspeed

sorry Mmo

based on what?

Vmo still provide a buffer from Vne

So it's possible one of the pilots leaned on the stick and initiated a dive and envelope protection kept it on Vmo and max controlled descend speed

i see

@FreeMan you descend at Vmo / Mmo because that will get you down quickest

I know it's still early, and it's all just speculation, but it sounds like the pilots set* the plane to max speed at max rate of descent, then just...

*no indication of why or how they did so.

@FreeMan I imagine part of the standard procedure for loss of cabin pressure is to set the autopilot to descend in case the crew oxygen supply fails (ideally you'd set it to a specific altitude and not a rate with no end-point)

@voretaq7 for my high-alt checkout, I was taught to hand fly the plane to 10,000 ft (737)

in the mooney checkout from FL250 - 10,000 it was gear and speedbrakes out, Vne descent, hand flown

@rbp it may be the same for an Airbus then (and being an airbus even if the guys passed out and their hands pushed the stick full-forward I don't think the computer would let them descend faster than Vmo (?))

@rbp +1, nice reading

@voretaq7 thrust idle, once at 250, gear down, flaps to whatever max setting works for 250 kts and speed hold 250. Our ops were to spin the altitude target knob down and once descent established set it to 10k. Of course, over mountains things would be a bit different in that regard.

@casey I suppose it's possible they spun the altitude select knob without thinking about the mountain too but I'd expect that the pilots knew at least generally where they were

@voretaq7 id hope so, especially because being in the mountains you have to be aware of driftdown alternates and knowing which one to go toward requires knowing where you are.

Those procedures are for engine failure but being aware of them would help in an emergency descent

Some of our mexico destinations would have 4 or 5 alternates listed, 1 for each segment of the route that was limited by altitude loss of an engine failure and the surrounding terrain

@casey Did these alternates take into account the likelihood of your aircraft being commandeered by the cartel upon landing? :)

@voretaq7 most likely yes. I imagine that was among the other criteria for mexico alternates alongside: paved runway, long runway, jet-A available.

though I don't think our company ever took it as serious as El-Al. Even at Newark (or maybe especially in NJ), their planes always had vehicles and armed personnel watching it whenever it was on the ground.

@casey El-Al has a right to be paranoid. Besides, Newark.

CVR of the crashed plane has usable sounds

El Al planes in newark use the gates at the end of the terminal, and the waiting area and gate are cordoned off not just with those rope things, but with 8' opaque dividers

you have to go through screening to get there

@ratchetfreak . . . as opposed to "unusable" ones? (I guess that's actually a thing in the digital era…)

@rbp screening that actually works, they are right not to trust our TSA fools

+1

@casey The TSA is here to protect you from an enjoyable travel experience

@voretaq7 at least they are successful at what they do

usable for the investigation at least

It's actually a long con: If we make air travel so inconvenient, degrading, and generally miserable nobody will fly anymore so there won't be nearly as many planes to hijack.

@voretaq7 where else do you think that tax money go?

@kevin Hookers and blow.

Oh wait no that's lobbyist money, sorry. Wrong column on the spreadsheet.

nytimes.com/2015/03/24/business/dealbook/… "Andrew Ross Sorkin DealBook column contends that airline industry, far from being 'hypercompetitive,' is looking more like an uncompetitive oligopoly; says mergers over last few years have left only four big airlines that purposely do not compete on some routes; points out airfares have not fallen along with oil prices, airline's biggest expense"

@voretaq7 that's in response to <------

@rbp Airlines are the only industry I know in which they actively compete to make the customer less happy.

I have been TSA Pre for a long time. sometimes I can make it from the taxi through security in under 10 minutes

and La Guardia has a new American Express Centurion lounge, which is fantastic

If airlines really wanted people to like them they'd kick the TSA out and implement real (sensible, effective) screening, provide enough leg room for someone who is not one of Santa's elves, and not charge you for wanting to bring enough clothes with you for a week's trip (one bag).

@rbp I don't need to be TSA Pre anymore, the new thing at JFK is when the main line gets too long they start diverting people to the TSA Pre line.

(so yeah. "security". sure. uh huh. right. yup.)

there are many city pairs that only have one carrier, even from new york

Meh, the next time I have to go to California and I'm not in a hurry I'm taking Amtrak.

> Searchers find empty second 'black box'

"Search Resumes At Germanwings Plane Crash Site"

resumes? who would search for resumes at a plane crash site.

i usually look on hotjobs

@casey When I last flew El Al (early 80s) they made the TSA look like a bunch of of bullies given big sticks and put in charge of the playground.

Oh, wait, they are...

@FreeMan bullies only more empowered by the blue shirts and badges they were given a few years ago

EL Al was professional, proficient & polite. Even, I'd imagine, if they found something 'noteworthy'. At least until you were out of sight of the public.

@rbp You never know what you'll find in wreckage.

(though it's rather charitable of me to keep calling the debris field "wreckage" - from what I've seen there's not much to reconstruct :-/ )

@voretaq7 When I think of it, it's pretty sad when you come across things like that at a crash site

@kevin You find all sorts of depressing stuff. We had a train wreck back when I was working in New Hyde Park, apparently it was a mom & 2 kids in the car. 3 days later you'd see toys and stuff along the road behind our parking lot (didn't get recovered after the accident & got dragged along by cars and trains)

I remember a picture on avherald once accidentally showing a dismembered body part (it eventually got blurred)

but I think the saddest crash site picture I can think of was the travel guide picture from the MH17 shoot-down

Are most major airports closed (as in: no flights, inbound or outbound) for the night?

@GlenTheUdderboat no, most major airports have quite a bit of cargo traffic during the night

some limit that though for noise abatement reasons

@falstro Thanks!

Quote: If you are the smartest person in a room, you are in the wrong room.

@Farhan Well said!

@Farhan How can it be that the (globally) smartest person finds herself in the wrong room, even though your quote says she is? Are all rooms bad?

@GlenTheUdderboat At least everywhere she goes, the room is good for everyone else. So there's that.

@Farhan Or: if everybody followed that rule, then all rooms would be empty soon.

@fooot Good point. Where is she?

So, the newest speculation (that I have seen on TV) is a faulty software update (autopilot) for the Airbus (not sure: all of them or type-specific). I don't know, but is that like a software update on my PC?

@GlenTheUdderboat God help us all if MicroSoft is pushing updates to flight control systems!

Anyways, is the reported dive of the crashed plane so substantial that it would be obviously felt (besides through some ears) or not?

@DanHulme Many people seem to scream for live cloud data for planes, but I haven't yet heard that connecting a plane to the internet (in any way) also makes it hackable. Waiting...

@GlenTheUdderboat no reason the data stream can't be one-way

@DanHulme Maybe. I don't know how the internet actually works.

like, what's that thing called, oh, yeah, GPS

speculations, speculations, speculations. bloody hell, can't people wait?

@Federico that's a rhetorical question, right?

@Federico People can't stand to wait 2:30 for popcorn from the microwave. You want them to wait months to find out what happened in a airliner crash?

why can't they livetweet the investigation!

Barely posted, but I know this will become my favorite question: aviation.stackexchange.com/q/13497/572

@SentryRaven I so want to add ufo

I am tempted... vote to close as not on-topic or let it live... because frankly, IS there any procedures or laws? It would be entering of the CTR / airspace without clearance and that is most likely where my knowledge ends... FAA, Port authority, and then?

I love the edit though: By UFO i dont mean a unindentified flying object. But a plain and simple alien craft (clearly identifiable as such).

The asker has a reasonably high rank on WorldBuilders, so I think it's a reasonable thing for him to ask in in his imaginary worlds...

@SentryRaven Well I think what is already covered in this question is the only aviation-related portion of the question. After that it seems off-topic. (Can aliens fill out an ASRS form? They never do, and the FAA does nothing about it!)

Vote to close as duplicate? :D

@SentryRaven "I just flew into restricted airspace on a strange planet. Now what?"

The question that pops up then is: Up to which altitude or FL is the Moon considered airspace Golf?

Do we need to establish a TMZ some 1LY around our planet?

@SentryRaven: question closed. He can go back to world building (where he asked what the Romans would have done when an UFO landed in Rome)

To each their own SE, it seems...

Reading some of his questions and responses over there I think I won't miss him here.

Open your heart and embrace people who think... differently?

Apple users? Nah...

haha

If you'll excuse me, I am reaching my clearance limit in the sim and need to prepare some soft of approach here...

Ok, enjoy

I think its a entertaining question

and I wanted to upvote this comment: "They'll likely be given taxi instructions and told, "Stand by to copy a number..." If they aren't fluent in ICAO english phrasology, they'd be cited for that as well. Then the TSA and Customs would probe them and their craft"

we've got a smarta** aviation.stackexchange.com/a/13500/1467

@SentryRaven -- if I was an alien being, I'd orbit somewhere upwards of FL600 until I got the hang of what ATC and the pilots were saying...wait, one problem: how would you file a flightplan while orbiting in midair? :P

(that'd be an interesting exercise -- pull up DUATS while on an airliner with inflight WiFi and file a flight plan for your next training mission...)