TRPG General Chat

Carolina Loza

00:04

@Zachiel I need a better context, but it could be "what a pity"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

04:07

@BESW Dai stihó

BESW

04:28

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Ohai!

At friend's, pizzaing before D&D.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW fun

just waking up

I can actually see the sunrise today. Which is a novel change.

Having to be awake before the sun for a bloody conference with no coffee... makes me ... something something.

BESW

08:25

Player: [points at brown 3x3 square on the grid] "Is this a wall?"
Me: "That's a tree."
Player: "Oh."
Me: "It's round."
Party: [falls out of chairs]

4

4e's taxicab geometry never gets old.

BESW

10:51

Hah! I have full party buy-in for DFRPG as the next campaign.

Simon Gill

Woot!

BESW

The guy I was worried about? Loves the idea that rolling a lot higher than the target number actually makes your action better.

Simon Gill

@BESW That is a nice side effect of the system.

BESW

11:08

Yesssss. Stain's got my players attacking each other to get rid of it.

And after the first half of the fight with them taking the crippling debuffs and being removed from the battlefield instead of taking Stain, they're now taking the Stain.

Simon Gill

@BESW So it's doing its job then.

BESW

Yes.

Zachiel

11:44

@BESW what was the story behind that, BESW?

doppelgreener

11:55

@BESW Hey! If you're rolling fate dice the Statistical Anomaly guy can't possibly go rolling 1's

@BESW This is brilliant enough I want to star it. I will do so but I wonder how many people will get it.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs True. Sadly he's off island again now.

@Zachiel Story behind what?

doppelgreener

@BESW Why were you worried about him? O:

(maybe not what Zachiel wants to know, but that's what I want to know!)

BESW

12:11

@JonathanHobbs Didn't know if he'd be interested in a lower-crunch game.

And he's the kind of guy who doesn't usually let go of a system until he's plumbed it dry.

doppelgreener

@BESW How did he ever let go of 3.5e?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs He was actually off island for nearly all the time my group did 3.5.

Came back a few months after we converted to 4e.

Also important: 4e has a fully searchable and comprehensively errata'd database.

Simon Gill

@BESW Which is very good in a high crunch system

BESW

@SimonGill Yes, and means he can do crunchy plumby things without having ALL THE BOOKS there with him.

Simon Gill

@BESW The Infernal Library of Back-breaking

BESW

12:22

Heh, yes.

doppelgreener

Library In A Pocket. It is a book which is effectively just a cover with a dimensional pocket between it. You ask it about a topic and its pages will be replaced with ones about that topic. All these pages are, of course, being expanded upon and edited and corrected by countless scribes and researchers, sometimes by the readers who cross out and rewrite things. It is not unheard of that an owner of this book will lose an afternoon just following topic after topic.

Simon Gill

@JonathanHobbs Isn't that a smartphone with good voice search?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs We use a laminated grid battlemat (from the back of the 3.5 DMG), and Crayola washable window markers.

doppelgreener

@SimonGill And with access to Wikipedia! (and nothing else)

BESW

(They're less smeary in combat, come in more colors, and wash off more completely than actual wet-erase markers.)

@JonathanHobbs I'd expect it to be TV Tropes, actually.

doppelgreener

12:25

@BESW That might work well for us. I use some thick A2 paper with a 1" grid drawn on it, and our actual battle maps are A2 paper thin enough to lay on top, draw on in permanent marker, and still see the grid beneath through it

@BESW Ok that too. :D

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Oof. That sounds messy.

doppelgreener

@BESW Certainly not as clean as something laminated with washable markers.

BESW

Sneezes must ruin your encounters.

Simon Gill

@BESW And runaway dice.

BESW

@SimonGill Dice ruin just about every mini setup.

Our paper minis are susceptible to sneezes too.

doppelgreener

12:34

@BESW No, the paper's large so overall it's heavy, and nobody has their face right in the paper. Also we use the cardboard tokens a friend got with the D&D Essentials starter kit.

BESW

Ah, cool.

We use the Gnome Stew print-and-fold minis.

doppelgreener

@BESW No wonder you have the roll-on-the-book rule.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Yeah....

But also because some of my players are very, um, enthusiastic?

I think they take "Throw the dice" literally.

Simon Gill

@BESW "If it doesn't bounce off at least 3 walls and the fishtank, it's not valid" kind of enthusiasm?

BESW

@SimonGill "Natural 20s under the couch are still natural 20s."

doppelgreener

12:37

@BESW Wow. Now, my friends, we're used to playing a couple of strategy games that cover the entire table. We have a couple of hands' worth of actual space to roll in before the dice likely become wrecking balls. We're... trained well, but sometimes roll a bit hard.

BESW

A couple of my players are not really manually dextrous.

doppelgreener

@SimonGill "If I get 4 walls it's a 20!"

BESW

"d4, corner armchair."

doppelgreener

@BESW Called shots require aiming the dice at larger or smaller seats depending on the body part being called.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs [snerk]

Zachiel

12:45

Ohhhhhh I'm really interested in how does someone get convinced about changing systems

@besw I wanted to know what was this thing about "the more you roll, the more benefits you get"

was it about 4e?

Simon Gill

@Zachiel It was about DFRPG.

Basically, if you get a Great effort against Mediocre difficulty, you get more out of it than if you just rolled a Mediocre effort.

Zachiel

@JonathanHobbs I used that too. Great unless someone wants to see the map and takes the top sheet only XD

@SimonGill that's why. I was thinking about some HR

However I have this player that plays 3.5e "because you build a character beforehand and then you see it grow", doesn't like 4e "because it's not as hard to build an effective character" (my impression) but would like to play AD&D just for the sake of being able to boost about how he's playing AD&D. And nobody else but me is willing to DM anything, and especially not anything 3.xish. It's a nightmare. I want to start level 1 and become epic ç.ç

BUT I NEVER GET TO PLAY A PC!!! T_T

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Always a problem.

Zachiel

A guy this friend of mine knows is playing the same campaign since 10 years ago and they are lvl 70 now

I could never have 10 years in front of me to do that

BESW

I doubt that kind of thing is planned that far in advance. It just kinda happens.

Simon Gill

12:59

@Zachiel Wow... how have they not done everything twice in that time?

Zachiel

I want that to happen to me, any hints?

BESW

@Zachiel Find a party that doesn't ever get bored or want to try something new?

Zachiel

find a party? Like, accept to spend money on fuel to go somewhere such people exist?

how can I then be sure I'm not moving? A big part of my D&D group is now scattered elsewhere in Italy or in the UK

BESW

Yeah, I should've known better than to take that bait.

Zachiel

yeah

I should get arrested maybe

mmmh no not the right word there I guess

jailed

I need to get a list of good DMs there :p

doppelgreener

13:11

@Zachiel The solutions are many and varied. Find a new party or get the existing one on board are the most obvious. The means to accomplish either are also many and varied.

Remember you can play online too.

Zachiel

I already play online, it's not what I want. Plus, everybody I know who plays online with a limited number of people at the table doesn't like lifetime-long campaigns

doppelgreener

Ok. This is what is going on here.

Actually, wrong video. It's explained in the second one, not the third. This exact scenario is the one he describes at 2:20.

Zachiel

you're lucky, man

I'd have hated you had I spent 10' watching the wrong video

doppelgreener

Well, he describes it in both.

Essentially: how you get what you're after is simple. You don't really need to ask us, you already know the various answers!

Just find one that works for you.

Otherwise it looks like you're playing "why don't you"/"yes but" here.

Zachiel

till now, no answer works

I guess I'd better stop asking

and live with it

doppelgreener

13:23

Yes. Either that or adjust your criteria for what works (e.g. accepting online play)

Zachiel

when you were talking about online play

doppelgreener

Or accepting that what you're after might not be very likely to even happen. If you're after playing as a PC or in a different system, that's achievable. If you're after a decade long game that reaches level 70, not so likely.

Zachiel

were you talking about some play by videoconference thing?

doppelgreener

I was talking about online full stop! That is one of the avenues.

Zachiel

I feel it's sad someone gets what I want and there's nothing I can do to have it

doppelgreener

13:25

There is an alternative: getting over your want for it and accepting things for how they are.

Zachiel

yes, but.

doppelgreener

;D

Zachiel

However, I don't want to victimize any of you for being unable to cope with my needs.

I'm fully aware the fault is mine

doppelgreener

Alright. I hope one day you find a solution though. ;o Or become satisfied with where you're at.

Zachiel

Or, you're right.

It's 8 years I play D&D and assuming every level is gained in the same amount of time, by totalling all my games I guess we have made 30 levels or so. And these guys did 70 levels in 10 years (and a friend of mine did 18 levels in 8 months)

doppelgreener

13:35

You are speaking to someone who couldn't imagine wanting to play a single game or campaign or character for that long.

I am aiming to lay my own campaign to rest within two years if even that.

Zachiel

brb

[ping]

Simon Gill

@Zachiel [ack]

Zachiel

@SimonGill ?

acknowledge?

Simon Gill

@Zachiel yeah

Zachiel

at least I'm great at guessing

@JonathanHobbs I got to the end of the video, where it says "unplug". May I punch you in the face for worsening my depression?

BESW

13:55

@Zachiel No, you may not chastise someone for attempting to provide the context and help you asked for.

Zachiel

@BESW life sucks.

BESW

@Zachiel I hear ya, it can be pretty lousy sometimes.

Zachiel

IDK if you've taken a look to the video Jonathan posted

but what it says in the end is "the easiest way to deal with someone who wants attention is to cut any communication"

I've been "unplugged" three times this month

BESW

Unfortunately, if anyone here is a licensed psychiatric professional they're probably off-duty and not qualified to practice online anyway, so this isn't really a good place to find people who can help with problems outside the scope of RPGs.

Zachiel

I have my psichiatrist but thanks for the help

she said "quit playin'"

BESW

14:03

@Zachiel I'm definitely not a professional, but I'd guess she thinks you might be able to find the general social requirements you're looking for in RPGs more easily in some other venue.

It must be admitted that RPG groups are strange little microcosms of the social order with a tendency toward polarization and cliquish behavior.

Zachiel

I like to think that it should be easier to get what I want in a game, which is a microcosmos and as such should be easier to analyze

apparently, it's just as hard

and what hapens to characters can be no less frustrating than what happens to me

BESW

Nah, smaller social systems tend to magnify issues rather than minimize them.

Zachiel

so it's like getting all the frustrations twice

Simon Gill

@BESW This.

Zachiel

I'm not talking about the scope of issues, I'm talking about their predictability

BESW

14:07

And when they're built around something as wacky as the explicit and implied rules of an RPG, that's just asking for complication.

Yeah, not even Asimov's psychohistory thought that making a group smaller would make it easier to predict.

Zachiel

I'm tot talking about the size

I'm talking about the explicit rules

that should, at least in theory, act as limitators

I had this Montsegur 1422 game saturday. Is anyone familiar with it?

Simon Gill

@Zachiel They don't affect the social contract much. It's usually the other way round.

BESW

@SimonGill This.

@Zachiel Passingly aware of it.

Zachiel

however, one of the players took control over the story

BESW

The party plays a group of potential martyrs. Focuses on internal conflict re: recant/burn.

Zachiel

14:13

I'm still wondering how it is that I didn't know what to say to avoid that

Simon Gill

@BESW Interesting sounding game.

@Zachiel Were you running the game?

Zachiel

GMless game

randomless too

Simon Gill

@Zachiel heh, that's going to be difficult then

Zachiel

it's just that his ideas implied something

mine were just color

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Why would you want to avoid that? Isn't it a good thing to get people presenting ideas that imply depth?

Zachiel

14:17

I didn't want to stop him having those ideas

BESW

@SimonGill This is a case of the have-nots.

(Not to be confused with the Huguenots, who were also persecuted for their faith.)

Zachiel

I just wanted to be able to imagine what my character could have done to free herself from the menaces of his character

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Ah, good question.

BESW

@Zachiel I have had similar troubles with some of my PCs, when in the presence of other players with compelling personalities and strong ideas.

It's very easy to get swept up in the tide of someone who believes in their story.

Zachiel

@besw is there a way out of this?

BESW

14:22

@Zachiel Many ways! But none of them is a magic panacea.

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Was he describing what is happening to your character and what you did?

Zachiel

let me try too explain you the game

each player has a cast of characters

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Please :)

Zachiel

these characters are pre-defined and have pre-defined relatinships

I think I can get the relationship map, let me try

BESW

The issue you're running into over and over again, I think, is that you are trying to address social quandaries with game-rule solutions. Finding a social group that gathers around a ruleset doesn't make it any less a social group. You're adding a layer of complexity and social interaction (within the game between characters), not replacing the basic social contract with a game contract.

Zachiel

14:28

@besw I understand that if I'm not able to have good ideas in real life it's equally hard to have them for my character

BESW

@Zachiel That's... not what I'm saying.

Zachiel

I don't understand why I can't be allowed to play a character who has good ideas

@BESW I'm not saying that

Simon Gill

@Zachiel There is no reason for that.

Zachiel

then why do my characters all end having the same relationship problems I have?

I can't play a character who's successful in life

BESW

You say that you hope the rules of the game can act as limiters, making the events more predictable. I'm suggesting what's actually happening is that a layer of complexity is added, with the rules and character interactions on top of the existing social complexity of any group that regularly spends several hours together doing anything.

Zachiel

14:32

I assume I know more about the in-game situations that about what happens in the real life of real people in the real world. Is that wrong too?

BESW

@Zachiel Potentially, yes, because the in-game interactions are by necessity coloured by the real-world personalities and interactions behind them.

In-game events don't happen in a vacuum, they're part of the group's social context.

That's not to say that I can't play a thief, an elf, or a Catholic despite not being any of those things--but that the way I play that character WILL be recognizably my own style of RP.

Often a good actor will take a personal tic of their own --running his hand through his hair, twisting his knee back and forth while he's waiting-- and instead of trying to submerge that trait so the character he's playing doesn't have it, he instead subsumes it and makes it belong to that character.

Zachiel

is there any kind of character you want to play but you don't manage to portray as you wish

?

BESW

(Bruce Willis is a good example of a guy who can play many different kinds of roles while still having many quirks that are all Bruce Willis.)

@Zachiel Yes. I can't play characters that keep their mouths shut.

Zachiel

Have you found a solution so far?

BESW

I can play cruel or kind, smart or dumb, savage or civilized, but I can't play quiet.

Simon Gill

14:38

@Zachiel I can't do fast talkers in the moment - systems that let me use skils and 3rd person RP help out there.

Zachiel

usually in a party playing quietly means letting the others guide your choices. Is that it, @BESW?

BESW

@SimonGill True! Often the system can support a hard role or make it even harder.

Zachiel

@SimonGill same problem here

BESW

@Zachiel No, I've seen players who are able to keep their choices very much their own with just a minimum of words spoken. They're quiet and firm in doing things their way.

I'm just chatty. You may have noticed.

My solution is to design characters that I can play. I try to stretch myself, but I try not to give myself a personality that I know I'll utterly fail to portray.

Zachiel

@simongill my worst problem is that I can't make my character say things that are actually true. I once told a PC I wanted to prepare a banquet for the chiefs of his guild because I wanted to do something for them, with that character promptly questioning my ability to do so

BESW

14:42

For example, I once played a very quiet catfolk... who was always doing something, so I could narrate his actions instead of having his character speak.

Zachiel

Turned out all my character could provide was some tasteless food and wasn't able to get the cook at the fair lend her her kitchen

Simon Gill

@Zachiel How was that determined?

Zachiel

by logic

the other player's logic was better than mine

BESW

That sounds like a problem where your system or GM wasn't able to provide you with a clear understanding of the situation.

Zachiel

I made assumptions that turned out to be false, like using prestidigitation to give a good taste to a bigger volume of food

there was no GM

Simon Gill

14:46

@Zachiel D&D 3.5 without a GM?

Zachiel

social interaction between players

using D&D 3.5 rules

no out-of-combat-intimidate or diplomacy checks allowed between players

BESW

@SimonGill I'm going to guess this is his online post game in which GMs wander by to hand out adventures but otherwise let the PCs hash things out on their own with very haphazard supervision or intervention.

Zachiel

yes

Simon Gill

@Zachiel yeah... those rules are not designed for no-GM use.

BESW

It's really not 3.5 at all, based on his description of the rules and houserules and the way the GMs arbitrarily decide what is and is not permissible.

Zachiel

14:48

most other players don't seem to have this issues

however when a 3.5 rule is applicable we do that. The spells are the same

I don't think the game being played is a point

the other player payed the cook to be there at the fair

BESW

@Zachiel Actually, it kinda is. The reason the other players don't have the issues you do? Is probably because the players who have issues with the game left.

Simon Gill

@BESW Sounds about right.

Zachiel

so what's different between me and this 100 people that have no issues with the game?

BESW

@Zachiel See above re: social problems and game solutions. You're playing a different game than they are.

Zachiel

I want to learn how to play that game. At least I want to be able to understand what this game is so I can figure myself how to play

and I sort of have

I need to play a serious character

BESW

14:51

You're trying to play a game where the written rules contain the solutions to all problems your character encounters. They're playing a game where florid purple prose and a concept flattering to a GM's ideas of narrative are the solutions to their problems.

Zachiel

not like the guy who was boostin about how my magic aura spells would have heped him capture a tiger in the wilderness

BESW

It just so happens that the GMs are playing the latter and have no interest in enforcing the former with anything more than lip service.

Zachiel

no, the prose isn't relevant here

forget about my game now. Forget about the 3.5 rules

BESW

@Zachiel Seriously? You just said that an in-game difference over character resources was settled by who could argue their case more eloquently.

Zachiel

@BESW not by writing about it in a purple or white prose

it's not a matter of eloquence, it's a matter of being right

I don't want to win discussions because I'm better at speaking

I want to win discussions because I can see what can be done and what can't be done beforehand

and put myself in a position where no-one can tell me I'm wrong

BESW

14:56

Impossible.

Zachiel

doomed to unsatisfaction

BESW

Regardless of whether you're right or wrong, you will always find someone who will tell you the opposite.

Zachiel

and I'd like to have valid arguments

to say "why would it be so and not my way?"

BESW

You'll always find people with better rhetoric, or who have no interest in listening to you at all.

Zachiel

as of now, every time they have me notice some error I recognized how wrong I was

the problem here is that I agree wit them

BESW

14:58

No one can always be right, and even if that were possible there'd be a ton of people who just wouldn't care.

You can improve your analytical skills, your ability to set forth arguments eloquently, your facility with quick improvisation, and your capacity to quickly evaluate situations.

Zachiel

I'm interested in 1, 3 and 4

2 is just not what I want

BESW

But you will always be able to get better, you will always have times when all you can do is learn from your mistakes, and there will always be people who just don't care anyway.

Simon Gill

@BESW Also letting go of your need to win arguments will help a little.

BESW

That shouldn't stop you, but it is important to know: because if you fool yourself into thinking you can become perfect, you will stop yourself from even trying.

Simon Gill

2 is important - people don't listen to a poorly-stated argument.

BESW

15:02

@Zachiel Eloquence is a vital skill.

By itself it produces cults and pedagogues. But coupled with the other skills, an eloquent tongue makes harsh truth palatable.

Zachiel

@besw I'd rather live vith the illusion that people can get convinced by facts

BESW

@Zachiel If you can't present your facts clearly and concisely they won't be able to hear 'em.

Simon Gill

@Zachiel That is a very unsatisfying illusion. I used to think that at one point. Now I don't have it, I feel better.

BESW

People are much more emotional and biased than machines, and even a machine needs to be instructed in the right order with the right language in order to understand what it's being told.

Zachiel

I think I got a bad grasp over what you mean with being eloquent.

I don't want to learn how to convince people of things that aren't true or proved, because I'd never do that

BESW

15:06

Eloquence: the ability to express oneself clearly and fluently in order to be persuasive.

Zachiel

not consciously at least

BESW

Eloquence by itself has no implication of truth or fiction, merely the ability to express one's ideas in a way pleasing and understandable to others.

4

It is the ideas you choose to express eloquently that makes it a boon to mankind, or a burden.

Simon Gill

@BESW is very eloquent, for instance.

Me, I still struggle a lot.

Zachiel

Ok ok I thinke I have a grasp of it now

BESW

@SimonGill Thank you. It's a skill I've worked hard to master to the limited degree I've managed.

But yeah, @Zachiel, there are general analytical, evaluative, and communication skills you can gain increased proficiency with in order to achieve some of your goals. But RPGs may not be the best venue in which to gain or practice them.

Zachiel

15:15

can they be a good incentive to have me work for them?

BESW

@Zachiel I don't see why not, but you'll find they also have a much broader application in your life.

Zachiel

I hope so!

BESW

I find that my abilities, such as they are, with analyzing language and being both eloquent and precise are of great help in working with my graphic design clients.

They frequently have no idea how to express what it is they desire to communicate in a design, and part of my services include helping them discover that and put it into words.

@SimonGill I'm not sure why my textbook definition of eloquence is starred, but I assume you did it. Thanks?

Simon Gill

@BESW Because it felt like it was worth starring :P

BESW

@SimonGill Being able to express oneself clearly is of vital importance to me. It's a life's work well worth the effort.

Lord_Gareth

15:22

Quickly @BESW, get on the dragon - there's no time to explain!

BESW

Probably one reason FATE is so interesting to me: Aspects are basically tiny little single-serving blasts of concentrated eloquence.

@Lord_Gareth [time stop] Now there is.

1d4

Dice Service

1

BESW

You have twelve seconds.

Lord_Gareth

Papa John's is doing 25 cent large pizzas and this dragon teleports. Now swiftly, grab your quarters and RIDE!

Simon Gill

@Zachiel you could start looking into your skills at improv first. Getting someone to give you ideas and then helping you learn to take them in interesting ways quickly would be worth doing.

BESW

15:24

@Lord_Gareth Never had Papa John's. The Fairy Nuff is bringing the change.

@SimonGill It sounds to me like he's concerned by exceeding the limits of the setting with his improv.

Lord_Gareth

Is the setting FR?

Because lemme tell ya

FR doesn't have limits. It just has "As far as the authors have gone to date"

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Not unless there's an UBA in the middle.

Lord_Gareth

Hahaha

Simon Gill

@Lord_Gareth A group of players do have limits though - "As far as the authors have gone - and no further."

Lord_Gareth

Not ashamed to say that I despise Forgotten Realms with the overflowing bile of ten thousand enraged demons

Ed Greenwood needs to suffer for inflicting that on my hobby.

Zachiel

15:28

My "I don't want to change game" player also wants it to be FR

Simon Gill

@BESW It sounds like one of the problems at least.

Zachiel

Because Baldur's gate was FR, I think

BESW

If I could derail the chat for a moment, this is awesome.

Simon Gill

@Zachiel IT is. And Baldur's Gate is excellent.

BESW

a-to-zoo.tumblr.com/post/40923602055/c-is-for-marie-curie

Lord_Gareth

15:28

@Zachiel - Yeah, wanted to mention something. You sorta drove the Legend guys nuts with your, "Hey, I need to change my game to make it more challenging, but I need to not change anything."

So if it's just one player that's causing the problem, what you do is inform him that you're here to help the whole group have fun, and that's going to necessitate making some changes. If he's not mature enough to give it a try, then he needs to go find a cloning vat and play with himself instead of other people.

Zachiel

@SimonGill I meant that I think that's the reason he doesn't want to change. I know that BG2 is FR

Another reason could be he doesn't want to learn a new setting

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I'm not aware of context, but that seems simplistic at best, and is definitely not the first choice I'd make from a social engineering POV.

Simon Gill

@Zachiel Fair enough, the placing of the I think confused me as to your meaning.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW The dude objects to altering the monsters in a module in order to cause additional challenge.

I've had players like this before. They can learn to accept that other people are here to have fun too, or they can go try another group.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Yes, well. I'd try to get some buy-in from him by offering him agency in it.

I always think of the teacher who got a guy to stop bringing bugs into the classroom to make the girls scream... not by telling him to stop, or even accusing him of doing it, but by putting him in charge of catching the bugs that "kept appearing in the classroom" quickly and safely and putting them out.

"But Miss, I'm not bringing them in!"
"I don't care who is, I just think you'd be very good at getting them out with a minimum of fuss."

Simon Gill

15:35

@BESW That's an excellent and clever bit of social engineering

BESW

@SimonGill It's kind of my golden standard of how to deal with that kind of situation.

Lord_Gareth

I agree - if it works. But this isn't a guy causing disruptive behavior by doing something, he's causing it by trying to prevent something. Are you not concerned that agency would simply encourage obstructionism?

BESW

It really helps if you can actually keep them totally in the dark about if you know they're the ones doing it or not.

@Lord_Gareth Of course I'm concerned. I'm concerned about a lot of things, which is why I try to be thoughtful about the actions I take.

But if I rejected every action that I had concerns about, I'd be out of options pretty darn fast.

Simon Gill

@Lord_Gareth Which particular example are you thinking of with this comment?

BESW

So I look at the problem: in this case, A) some people are unchallenged by the module as written, and B) one person is having trouble with the modifications I'm making to the module to address problem A.

Lord_Gareth

15:39

Well, see, that's why I tend to take a hardline tack about who is or is not running the game. I let my players know that I'm here for them - after all, my first job as a GM is to ensure that everyone (self included) is having fun! - but in the end it's my game and while I'm certainly open to discussion about it I say when that discussion stops.

Bouncin'. Talk later ya'll.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I would never run a game like that. During a session, sure, the GM makes a ruling and we move on. But despite what it says in the 3.5 DMG, the GM is not the boss of the group and acting like one is a quick ticket to a broken group.

The GM plays a role in the group's collaborative storytelling. A big role! But the rest of the group has agency and contributes to the storytelling process at some level in any game, or they might as well be AIs or NPCs.

Zachiel

I wanted to know about what I could do to maximise the challenge once the player characters arrive (including spell memorization) and everybody keeps assuming I must change something before that (spell knowledge, numer of monsters, physical stats, feats or class choices.). I guess there's some communication issue in this.
Maybe stating that I'm not interested in getting the monsters be a real challenge, just not playing them under their possibilities would have been a good thing to do there.

BESW

@Zachiel I think the big problem THERE was that the example you gave was a really quite lousily built NPC who didn't really have a coherent strategy that presented itself.

Zachiel

@besw we analized several ones with afroakuma on legend and some I analyzed by myself

looks like they're all equally poorly designed

like a vampire monk/assasin with +12 to hit bonus

a 14th level one

he has 18ish scores on wis, cha and int

BESW

That drow priestess was the NPC equivalent of a crayon drawing of an elephant by someone who has only seen Babar.

Zachiel

15:47

a 16 in str

and a 24 in dex

BESW

@Zachiel Well, that's 3.5 for ya. Massive ECL bonuses result in creatures that can't hit anything of the level they're supposed to challenging at.

Zachiel

@BESW +1

I meant 14 class levels

he's got sneak damage, death strike, lots of damage... and hits on a 20

Simon Gill

@BESW Yep. More reasons to look into other systems which might achieve the groups goals more easily.

BESW

@Zachiel Well, yeah. Multiclassing two suboptimal BAB classes? Gonna sting.

Zachiel

like 5 levels each

BESW

15:49

@SimonGill To which Zachiel will remind you that his group has its heels dug in.

Zachiel

0 1 1 1 0

BESW

►

Zachiel

At least one player refuses to play anything else

Simon Gill

@BESW Just because one side of the scales has a 10 ton weight on it, doesn't mean you shouldn't count the 100g weights on the other.

Zachiel

One doesn't care about the system but takes a long time adapting to new ones, and that makes a point for the first one

BESW

15:51

@SimonGill Hey, don't tell me. I just talked a guy heavily invested in 4e into trying FATE because the rest of the group is burning out.

Zachiel

that's why I was interested in that

Simon Gill

@BESW I'm not telling you, I'm relating it to your point.

BESW

[grin] Yar.

Most of the problems @Zachiel brings up are really ones of the social contract.

They have RPG-specific details, but participants who dig their heels in about their preferred system would just as likely be hung up on what kind of music the band should play.

Simon Gill

@BESW [nods]

Zachiel

I got two options here. Stop playing with my friends or keep playng D&D 3.0/5 as a DM. None satisfies me.

BESW

15:56

Overweening idea men who don't give space for people not as quick on their feet, self-deprecation as a means of emotional blackmail, these are all social problems not restricted to the RPG community...

Simon Gill

I'm off for a while though - going to do some baking for a while.

BESW

...just exacerbated by a profundity of social contract assumptions kept implicit instead of explicit by the presence of a rule system each person interprets to have slightly different social connotations.

@Zachiel Somehow, that strikes me as a false dichotomy.

I'm burning out on GMing D&D, as a system and a philosophy, in any edition. I don't think I can run another full campaign in it. So tonight I sat my players down and told them that.

Zachiel

I said that 2 years ago

we stopped playing

I missed it

Here I am again

BESW

I didn't assume what they'd want, I didn't make a declaration of intent, I told them the problem, told them what I could not do, and made some suggestions.

Zachiel

We talked about it yesterday

"what shall we do when we end this campaign?"

BESW

16:01

"I can't run another full D&D campaign. Don't have it in me. I'd be happy to set up a new 4e campaign in a way that everybody could take turns GMing, or I can be a PC in someone else's campaign, or I'll run a DFRPG campaign. Other suggestions are welcome."

We decided to do DFRPG.

Zachiel

I proposed another D&D campaign. A different one. Somebody talked about a non FRCS campaign and got silenced. I also proposed a different game, yet to choose. Unsatisfied faces around the pub's table. I don't know if I could have done things better and since you weren't there I guess you can't do that too but I'd like to tell you that it isn't like I haven't tried. I even proposed Dungeon World, even if the system scares the crap out of me.

BESW

If you are clear and eloquent in presenting your situation, and your players are flat-out unwilling to compromise in the slightest, not interested in helping lighten your GM load by adjusting the game or take over GMing in any capacity to let you take a break, then that is not a game among equals.

If you are happier in this situation than not playing, that is an important thing to know about yourself.

If not.... then that says something too. Either way gives you a vision of the status quo you can more easily live with while seeking better alternatives.

Zachiel

I guess there's one more thing to it

My friends all play DotA. I'm sick with it. I can't play it, it frustrates me over any imaginable level. They keep asking me to join "for the sake of doing something togheter". Guess which player insists more?

BESW

I got nothin'. Your anecdotes paint details of a wider tableaux with a strong social pecking order that colours the games you play.

It sounds like you're trying to use RPGs to impose a framework on a social situation you find untenable, but unfortunately not only is this not a viable solution (RPG rules cannot hold the social problems at bay); it also provides an entirely new arena for that social malady to take hold.

The only time I've ever seen RPGs effectively ameliorate a tense social situation was when I used them to provide an excuse for my close friends to get together in my own house Friday nights instead of hanging out in places with people and activities I could not associate with.

I wish you all the luck in the world, and now I go to bed.

Zachiel

16:25

@BESW that's one of my objectives. Thank you for your wishes.

LitheOhm

19:07

after a long discussion, I concede that when a character saves against any spell, they get to know something happened. With the potential spellcraft for casters.

Doesn't mean I agree with it, but in the 3.5 system that was both the RAW and RAI, I believe.

LitheOhm

20:27

@Zachiel that's rough

@BESW I've got to agree. I tried this with people I even thought I knew well, and all it resulted in was bickering and me feeling like they didn't appreciate the work I put into the game at all.

jerks will be jerks, whether you're the GM or not.

Simon Gill

@LitheOhm yeah, magic rules are weird. What changed your mind about it?

LitheOhm

21:07

not sure exactly what, probably just a culmination of reviewing rules on both the saves and spell-like abilities

@SimonGill some beasties in my DnD campaign are now a lot less powerful/discreet, as a result.

Simon Gill

@LitheOhm Why would you say they are less powerful? Discreet I can understand if they are trying to cast lots of mind-affecting spells.

LitheOhm

22:41

a lot is lost when discretion is compromised. Not just doppelgangers, like the question on here that got me wondering. Rakshasas, casters... If someone of sufficient authority and/or power (someone worth mindreading) makes their save, they could just quarantine the area until they figure out who sticks out. Or any number of other scenarios

I never disputed the suggestion or other mind-affecting, mainly just the divination ones. That information becomes a lot riskier to attain

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