TRPG General Chat

Trish

00:04

@BESW I need only Western ~, Eastern ~, Leviathan and Winged Serpent. See? I can work with 4 physiological types of dragons, cross that with three sizes (Drake, Dragon, Elder Dragon) and voila, I got all the dragons

BESW

03:04

All of D&D's core dragon types are physically minor variations on the "European" dragon with even less variation than the source material (ie Fafnir, Níðhöggr, St George's) or split off into a different category for no particular reason (see: wyvern, tarrasque), and very much unlike whatever non-European source material they're explicitly invoking (such as Tiamat).

Some of the physical differentiation is clearly but obliquely referencing East Asian dragons (like the whiskers of the gold dragon invoking elements of the loong), but it's all just frills pasted onto the European chassis.

The big differentiation between D&D dragons, and the reason they're color-coded, is that D&D decided dragons have inherited personality and ethics which defines their role in the story.

Phoenices

Yeah, I can't disagree with any of these claims. Also, D&D dragons are still cool :P

BESW

Not just antagonist, assistant, rival, or quest-giver; but trickster, pillager, leader, advisor.

It's part of D&D's larger "kitchen sink" issue that feeds its attempt to be able to support all stories ever without losing its core aesthetic and theming.

Phoenices

I'm not sure that kitchen sink is a problem, though. In a computer game, quite possibly. But in D&D, giving the DM a thousand options doesn't break the immersion of the players unless the DM chooses to.

BESW

Not inherently a problem, but in the context of D&D's loyalty to legacy coherence and its need to pretend it can be all things at once, well.

You wind up with a lot of cracks. The pressure to design things that the creators aren't interested in or haven't figured out how to implement effectively just because the franchise's scope implies those things are needed, for example.

This can lead to shallow implementations, or cluttered iterations.

And as a game rooted in guiltless violence for personal gain, trying to accommodate all stories creates extreme thematic dissonance.

D&D has a crisis of identity because its origin is as a stage for emulating all the stuff from different media that its creators liked; but it's become a system that's really only effective at emulating itself, while still clinging to all those legacy elements.

Phoenices

03:20

So you say the creators should focus on less things, but more polished? I think that would restrict DMs that actually want one of those genres too much, while as it is a competent DM can shape it to emulate what they want.

BESW

D&D is inspired by urban fantasy and gothic horror, Journey to the West and Beowulf, Lovecraft and Homer. And it takes the elements of all those stories about identity, morality, hospitality, systemic injustice, fear of the unknown... and places it in a system that assumes the default action is getting paid and praised for committing war crimes.

@Phoenices I'm saying the system, the franchise, is already highly focused, but the content tries to out-scope the system. And that "the GM can fix it" mean it's broken. The core premise I'm pushing against is that it's reasonable for a single game to do everything. "Restrict DMs that actually want one of those genres?" They can use systems which actually fit those genres instead of being given a malformed system and told that if it doesn't work they aren't a "good GM."

When I see "the GM can make it work" it feels like if somebody said "I want to play a Final Fantasy game" and they were given Smash Bros and told to "make it work" because Cloud Strife is in it.

I can, technically, make Street Fighter a dating game. But in 99.99% of cases if I want to play a dating game... I'd rather play a dating game.

2

Phoenices

For the record, I don't have the context for that reference, but I think I got the gist of it. Anyway, I think I see what you are saying. You think that D&D is too bloated because it aspires to be a hack-and-slash dungeon crawl, a diplomacy game and [insert thing here] and more all combined, which chokes the market for games while not being super good.

BESW

Pretty much.

Part of the trick D&D's played is that it's the first TRPG many people play, so they think other TRPGs are like it: expensive, a massive time sink to master, takes many hours to achieve satisfying development, and overstates its promises of what it's good at accomplishing then blames the users for failing to meet those promises at the table.

So why bother trying something like Dragonhearts or Wanderhome or Cthulhu Dark? D&D technically has the stats and skills and tables for those kinds of games, right?

And we already know this game.

Phoenices

And it's probably not even the easiest to learn, vaguely adaptable to many things system. But I also think it's not the worst thing that could have been in that slot, and something was very likely to fill that slot. Do you think it should add well designed subsystems for different things like diplomacy and so on? Or do you think it should declare "I am only for hack-and-slash dungeon crawl."?

BESW

I think it's stuck.

D&D, as it currently exists, is defined by being the One True Game That Does Everything. It can't take its place as one choice among many, because (a) it's over-committed in the market and its parent company would probably cancel the franchise if it wasn't making 'the only game in the world' money and (b) it's cultivated a fanbase who put a lot of their own personal identity into the franchise as it currently exists.

(And I don't think it's inevitable that some other game would take its place; there's no One True Video Game or One True Board Game)

Phoenices

03:38

But also, I don't think it has as bad a public image as you think. It does appear cool, and popular, and not painful to learn, which probably pulls in some people into this world of TRPGs. I'll admit that on some level I am the person you speak of - I've never considered trying other game systems, because I played D&D first. Er, actually I've played Ironsworn, but anyway, I am not in contact with that world. I think D&D is going downhill, but is still a starting point for a lot of things.

Shalvenay

part of the inertia is the sheer elaborateness of the ecosystem that's grown up around it, with settings, splats, video games, and so on

BESW

I'm not saying people think it's bad, just that they think everything is like it.

Many people who play D&D think that to learn another game they'd have to spend another $100+ dollars to get multiple core books, read hundreds of pages, invest in fancy dice, spend half an hour or more per conflict scene, improvise their own social scenes...

The idea that there are free games, games which fit into a booklet or a single sheet of paper, require no props, can tell full satisfying stories in the space of a single D&D boss battle, provide solid support for roleplay... it's not obvious to people whose exposure to TRPGs is that D&D is synonymous with the entire hobby.

And we know that while 4e was financially successful, it was a PR disaster because it chose to focus on doing on thing very very well and not trying to support all manner of extra bits, and that upset the existing fanbase. It's why 5e pivoted back and is so hesitant and unsure of itself compared to 4e's confidence.

(The original pitch for 5e was an elaborate set of interlocking subsystems which each table could pick and choose from to create their own version of the game, including legacy elements from previous editions. That was a glorious but ultimately impossible goal which evaporated early in playtesting.)

Personally I don't want to see any game system, franchise, or company dominate the industry. That's not sustainably healthy for creators, sellers, or players.

Phoenices

You say it should be a system ecosystem, BESW. But I think that it's kind of good that there's a default, because it means people don't get scared away by the number of different systems. It means there are lots people I can talk to about D&D online, instead of a hundred different subcommunities. It is a sort of gradually growing monstrosity that isn't very good, but it's a default that I can use and know people will accept as "Yeah, Phoenices is playing D&D."

BESW

And especially not D&D in its current form, clinging to bigoted legacies and run by an abusive company that actively harms creators.

Do people get scared from playing video games because there's so many to choose from?

Aren't there communities for people who play board games, not just for people who play Settlers of Catan?

D&D is a big part of the reason people find the hobby intimidating; it's massive and complicated and an enormous commitment of time and energy just to find out if you like it.

Phoenices

That's actually a fair comparison that I hadn't thought of. You may have a point. Most video games are solo or pseudo-solo - you don't have to convince your friends to play it. The ones that do require or benefit from friends are often the super-popular games that have the consensus of "Yeah, Fortnite is a good game that people play."
I honestly don't know if there are board game communities.

BESW

03:50

I've run a convention table for Lady Blackbird alongside D&D tables, and the people who sit down at my table start playing faster, master the rules quickly, and tell three times as much story with a lot more character work, compared to the D&D tables.

And I get more people playing because it's clearly less intimidating, to the point that sometimes the D&D host comes and sits in on my game because he's got nothing going on.

But on the other hand, the D&D host gets more people coming by with initial interest because they recognize the branding on his table.

I printed out a massive poster specifically designed to showcase how Lady Blackbird is approachable because it's built on recognizable media tropes, but nothing can compete with the brand in getting that first-look attention.

Nov 13 '20 at 2:34, by BESW

@TheDragonOfFlame I've been playing TRPGs for about fifteen years and in the first seven of them I played exactly three sessions that weren't D&D or a very close variant. Then I went "PLAY ALL THE GAMES!" and haven't looked back.

Phoenices

Hmm, I could believe that that is true. I really won't defend D&D as being good at what it does, but it's just barely passable, and... hmm, let me think of an example for what I'm thinking... I bet people buy more beer because there are recognizable brands that they know are not horrible and are not a gamble. Beer quality might go up if beer were evaluated by customers based on exactly what they wanted the beer for, instead of buying a well-known brand.
But people might buy less beer, and might get less total enjoyment (not arguing that alcohol is good or not, but I think it's a pretty clea…

BESW

Many of my earlier experiences with non-D&D games were miserable because I tried to play them as just a different edition of D&D.

Absolutely, yes, I know a lot of people who play D&D just because it's the only thing the people around them play even though they want to play other things.

Which is... not really a great argument for there being a dominant franchise in the hobby.

Part of what got my friends into a more experimental mode of play, was realizing that while D&D tends to take multiple sessions before it delivers a satisfying story conclusion or character development (leveling up is a major part of D&D enjoyment and it's doled out VERY slowly), there are TONS of games which we can pick up for a single session and get a complete experience.

There's no long-term commitment to picking up Cthulhu Dark or Honey Heist. We play a session and it's over and if it was awful maybe we still have time to watch a movie before we go home.

One of D&D's qualities is commitment. Sunk costs in terms of time and money spent acquiring and learning it, and then commitment to long sessions and regular attendance over weeks or months while it drip-feeds satisfaction with items, level-ups, and story arcs. I'm not saying that's bad but it's very much not the norm for the games I've been playing.

Phoenices

04:06

@BESW But my general claim here is that D&D sucks up many people who would have done other TRPGs - but also many people who wouldn't! Some of those people would be playing nothing instead. D&D presents an image to the world that might or might not be presented otherwise, of an option that exists and is plausible.

BESW

I'm sorry but you're saying D&D does a thing that *maybe* other games *might* not do, but we don't know because D&D doesn't give them that chance. And I guarantee that D&D also has a legacy of driving people away from the hobby entirely. Whether because of unmeetable cost or commitment requirements, or the loud and toxic gatekeeping of its communities...
...or the game's text being riddled with racist, sexist, and ableist content that makes it clear the designers aren't interested in certain kinds of players and give permission to tables to tell awful stories.

Phoenices

I think I'm going to be done with this discussion - not really for a specific reason, just because it's kept going. This isn't because I disliked the discussion - I learned a lot of things, and it was fun. I want to say "it's getting a bit tiring," but that sounds insulting. But yeah, it's continuing to be a fun discussion, but it's mentally draining, through no fault of your own.
Now that I think about it, I'm bothered that "I'm now going to be done with this discussion" is/feels so hard to say in a non-insulting manner. Not sure I conveyed what I meant here very well. Thanks for arguing a…

BESW

And I'm not talking about historically for any of that, though it's a very long and troubled history, I'm talking about 5e and right now.

@Phoenices Thank you! And thank you for stopping when you need to.

In conclusion: D&D dragons are representative of the kind of scope and category choices which make D&D so influential... and also which make its influence so troubling.

BESW

04:27

Bloodbeam Badlands "Content Update 1 - Illustrations, Gear, Episodes!"

Cover reveal for In the Bluelight by Chris Bissette.

Crowdfunding: The Wizards and the Wastes by project Nerves. A game of arcane bargaining. Nominated "Most Innovative" for its unique spellcasting system, wherein you create spells from your personal spell source; a painting, a book, a collection of poems, a graphic novel, or an album.

Highland Paranormal Society shared in a tweet their approach to game design.

The Gadgeteer - Superhero Cinematic Universe TTRPG by W.H. Arthur. Fight against an evil Corporation in the cyberpunk dystopia of 202X!

Capybara Capers by momatoes is now available in Japanese (and still in English) on the Japanese version of her website!

Rae Nedjadi wrote on twitter about "the main reason I wrote Apocalypse Keys to be as bombastic, cinematic, & emotional as it is"

Bardic Wizard

06:29

@BESW Speaking of dragons — I put a bunch of dragons in the middle of a game world I’m working on. The players showed up expecting typical-d&d dragons. Instead they got a variety of dragon nations effectively like reformation-era Europe. Complete with dragon Martin Luther impaling 95 theses on the door of the cathedral with a talon.

Shalvenay

@BardicWizard :D

BESW

Nice!

My last D&D campaign had a federation of city-states each run by a dragon who treated their city as their treasure, with the wellbeing of the citizens and the quality of its crafts and culture determining the value of the treasure.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW I’d play in that world

Though some of our discussion did end in an argument about remembering things from world history and about why you can’t just drop history after junior year, settled by the math teacher by telling us that we could only debate history in her class if it was the history of calculus

So we switched to arguing about the Cartesian plane.

BESW

@BardicWizard Well now I'm imagining the ridiculous and petty drama of the Royal Society as an ongoing fight between dragon patrons.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW I’m stealing that. My friend is just going to deal with it.

BESW

06:40

Dec 18 '12 at 13:28, by BESW

In the official materials, Arkhosia is usually portrayed as an empire run by a dragon emperor called the Golden One.

> That makes no sense to me; D&D dragons are egoist loners and won't ever subjugate themselves to another dragon.
So I redesigned Arkhosia as a federation of states, each ruled by a single dragon that has decided that the state's wealth, happiness, and prestige are its 'treasure.'
The Golden One is the ruler of one of the smallest states, but is also the psychopomp of Bahamut--meaning that he is the spiritual guide of Arkhosia's faithful, and has dominion over their souls' fates.
In effect, he's the Pope: temporal ruler of a small nation and spiritual ruler of a vast international multitude.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW I like it

People around my part of the world don’t seem to recognize history out of context so I just steal it for rpgs. Like today, when I realized none of the library d&d folk, even the other one who’s in the same APUSH class, recognized the Mexican American war if it was presented as a conflict between the demonic forces and the devilish forces. The only one who realized it, the librarian, suggested they become war profiteers.

BESW

Same! I modeled a lot of Arkhosia's values and practices on Imamate-era Muslim nations, and the political situation of the world on the series of wars between the Greek city-states and Carthage.

(I'm pretty sure that the Punic Wars are what the source material was drawing from with the battle between the empires of Arkhosia and Bael Turath, but I doubled down on it hard.)

I also tended to use my Renaissance art classes as inspiration for the local aesthetics and plots whenever our D&D games went urban.

Bardic Wizard

Clarification: a friend who is in this library d&d group and is reading over my shoulder (ahem) would like me to inform you that first of all the librarian suggested they sell arms to both sides and mark them up so they could get quite a bit more profit, and second of all that she recognized my reference but refused to comment because she’s still sore that I didn’t let her have a catapult

BESW

If you give somebody a catapult, they start getting creative about what to put on the catapult.

Also hello to friend!

Bardic Wizard

06:56

@BESW Her words: “I promise not to launch any unwilling living creatures or magical artifacts from it”. I still said no

BESW

@BardicWizard Wise choice. Fomites come to mind.

trogdor