TRPG General Chat

Akixkisu

00:00

@Someone_Evil Ah, I was pointing at the different functions of "can".

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu food rescued

@Akixkisu I think you were pointing out that you can't remove words in isolation and not have to rewrite other parts

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage Earlier in my waking cycle, I had a tajine on the stove, and it took so long that I almost turned up the heat, then later, I almost forgot to add enough water.

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil the other function of 'can' is present in Produce Flame:

> A flickering flame appears in your hand. [...] You can also attack with the flame, although doing so ends the spell.

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage Does swift quiver let you use your bonus action to make two attacks if you’ve already used your bonus action for something else?

Akixkisu

You didn't use the equivalent of your bonus action.

AncientSwordRage

00:04

If we followed that format, magic stone would say something like "you can attack with the pebbles. Make a ranged spell attack"

Akixkisu

Before you were unable to produce the effect with you bonus action.

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu exactly

swift quiver also says 'use' not 'make'

Trish

Do we have a necromonger invasion? Or do we have QC day?

AncientSwordRage

> you can use a bonus action to make two attacks with a weapon that uses ammunition from the quiver.

Someone_Evil

You're making the mistake of expecting templating in D&D spells. It just doesn't have them (unfortunatly). EE even less so

Akixkisu

00:08

@ThomasMarkov Or with other words your argument here rpg.stackexchange.com/a/194681/44723 is correct, but it doesn't apply to ASR's situation.

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage you can use a bonus action.

“Can” indicates that you are able to do it, even if normally you cannot.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov my argument is about how can changes the word make.

@Someone_Evil I agree here

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage so imagine this dog…

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov is the dog called 'Can' or 'Make'?

> You can take a Bonus Action only when a Special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
You can take only one Bonus Action on Your Turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use when you have more than one available.

Two restrictions there:

1) you don't normally have a bonus action

2) you only get one per turn

My interpretation is that "you can use a bonus action..." is an exception to the most generic restriction.

Having another ability make the same exception doesn't override the second restriction

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov You probably don't get a hat for raising many flags on a single day.

Thomas Markov

00:23

@Akixkisu Have I mentioned how salty I am about not having rainbow puke?

Akixkisu

(Though if there is a secret hat for rasing exactly 100 flags, then I haven't tested it yet)

@ThomasMarkov I can imagine.

Somtimes I think about this comment rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/149261/…

Is there any feature for level 1 that would meaninfully interact that way that doesn't hinge on things like intimidation checks?

MikeQ

00:54

Question: What's the protocol for modifying an answer (i.e., changing it to conclude something else) after it has been accepted?

Someone_Evil

Why are you changing the conclusion?

I ask, because I think the protocol is best summed as "use your judgement"

MikeQ

I submitted yesterday, it was accepted, then today I double-checked the source material and realized that half the answer is wrong. If I change the answer, the asker's comment responses won't make sense anymore.

Ok, I'll change it, and if that's a problem then someone can roll it back.

KorvinStarmast

01:12

@Someone_Evil +10 😊

Akixkisu

01:24

@MikeQ You aren't invalidating anything by changing your answer like changing a question will — votes, the accepted state and all of that we can adjust if necessary.

Hot RPG Questions

03:30

5

Q: Does this tweak to Jumping rules have any pitfalls or problematic interactions?

My players and I were long ago accustomed to the D&D 3.5e ruleset, but now comfortably enjoy 5e's simplicity. Still, there are some rules that we preferred from the previous system that we felt was handled less satisfyingly in 5e. While it doesn't come up often, jumping is one of those rules. 5e'...

AncientSwordRage

Spiritual weapon also has the "you can make" wording.

BESW

05:31

""A slap in the face": Tabletop creators wrestle with the cost of departing Kickstarter in wake of crowdfunding site’s crypto plans" article by Matt Jarvis and Chase Carter for Dicebreaker. Planned move to blockchain in 2022 leaves designers and publishers desperately seeking viable alternatives to the industry’s dominant crowdfunding platform.

Armandah17 is making a twitter thread of "#itchfunding research/information"

Cezar Capacle has a twitter thread of "cool #ttrpg projects that I found that are currently itchfunding!"

Hot RPG Questions

08:08

6

Q: Does Swift Quiver let you attack twice the turn you cast it?

Swift Quiver takes a bonus action to cast, then it lets you use a bonus action to make two attacks. So the turn you cast it, you use your bonus action just to cast it, then you need another bonus action to use it's ability to make two attacks, right? Swift Quiver: You transmute your quiver so it...

dnd-5e spells bonus-action

AncientSwordRage

09:37

I made a mental-health tag!

It probably needs looking at, and handling carefully

Akixkisu

10:18

@AncientSwordRage While I approved the excerpt information, I think you should bring this to meta.

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu :thumbs up:

@Akixkisu very quick meta question posted

The Oracle

0

Q: Can we provide a good tag wiki for [mental-health]

A bunch of questions on this site involve discussions around mental health (namely, I found this one), so I've created the tag mental-health. It's a subject that needs to be handled with care (not something that always happens both at the table or in RPG books themselves), and part of my hope was...

discussion tags tag-wiki

AncientSwordRage

10:34

Also one of these is probably a dupe?

3

Q: If my familiar is forced through my action to drop a rock while over a target, is it considered an attack?

Here is the scenario: My bat familiar (from the find familiar spell) has a Strength score of 2, and can therefore carry 7 lbs. (Per the "Lifting and Carrying" rules (PHB, p. 176), its carrying capacity is its Str score times 15, divided by 4 for being Tiny.) I cast enlarge/reduce on a rock that w...

dnd-5e spells attack familiars

8

Q: Is a familiar allowed to drop rocks onto enemies?

In the description of the Find Familiar spell it says that they can't attack. I asked my DM during a fight if my familiar (owl) could pick up a stone and drop it on an enemy's head because I knew the enemy had very little health. My DM allowed it but I wanted to know if that is an actual option...

dnd-5e familiars attack

Akixkisu

11:08

@AncientSwordRage One asks about making an attack and the other asks about being forced to drop something e.g. through suffering an attack.

@AncientSwordRage what about an 8 makes you consider it a "low" value?

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu below average?

@Akixkisu they read to me as "A thing that looked like an attack happened, was it an attack if the thing-doer isn't allowed to attack?"

BESW

Storyteller Creator's Guide by Pandion Games. Create games, supplements or content for Storyteller, the Campfire Narrative Game

AncientSwordRage

now maybe an expert in dnd-5e would know better either way

BESW

Sale: Goose & Gander Sale 3: For The Rent by Justin Joyce. This is the annual sale and bundle held by tabletop creator Justin Joyce! This year the goal is simple: I'd like to get 100 people, or as close to that number as possible this year so that I can guarantee that I have money for Rent and Bills this month and next month.

One of the games in that sale which caught my eye because gosh what a premise:

I Know My God by Justin Joyce. A solo journaling rpg about finding yourself. In this game, you'll tell the story of THE KID, the protagonist of a 44-episode claymation christian educational children's series, as they discover the fact that they are queer.

Akixkisu

11:48

@AncientSwordRage They are related - the intention is pretty similar, but they cover distinct topics.

AncientSwordRage

12:12

@Akixkisu really? They even have similar answers

Also, before I go making more tags/meta posts -would bleed be useful?

@ThomasMarkov thanks for the edits

Akixkisu

12:41

@AncientSwordRage What is the intention of the tag?

AncientSwordRage

yesterday, by BESW

Articles tagged "bleed" on the Nordic Larp blog.

May 19 at 3:55, by BESW

Maria Mison wrote a twitter thread about "vulnerability, safety and bleed in ttrpgs."

Covering that sort of thing ^

BESW

Nov 2 at 14:38, by BESW

Are there questions that would clearly benefit from it? I've been looking kinda sideways at some recent tagging confusion that seems to spring from making a tag and then going to look for places to apply it.

Nov 2 at 14:38, by BESW

Also--is it a tag that will be discoverable by users who don't already know of it?

Nov 2 at 14:39, by BESW

Tags are just busywork if the people who already know they exist are the only ones adding them to questions.

AncientSwordRage

12:59

@BESW I'll have a think...

BESW

If there isn't at least one exisiting question that clearly needs the tag, don't make the tag.

If there is, consider why the tag wasn't made for that question and whether that reason will be an obstacle to the tag's use going forward.

AncientSwordRage

13:16

@BESW I think there is at least one for both

@BESW for mental-health people seem easier discussing instances than addressing it as a whole topic.

For bleed it would have gone on one of my own questions but I'd already made the mental-health tag today

AncientSwordRage

13:27

I'm also sure people have heard of mental health, and possibly bleed in the RPG sense?

BESW

Oh, if you're tagging your own question, that's a totally different ballgame.

Tag 'em good and hard if they're yours, that's how the folksonomy emerges.

If you don't have the privileges to do it, ask somebody to do it for ya.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW done

BESW

13:45

The baseline quality the Stack looks for in a tag is "are askers putting it on their own questions." If you're the asker, well then.

@Tiggerous [wave] Long time no see!

KorvinStarmast

14:06

@AncientSwordRage Is there a family of games, or a system, that uses the bleed mechanic/tag (I just took a look at your edit). If so, I think it would be helpful to edit that into the tag also.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast it's more of a phenomenon than a mechanic...?

BESW

Jun 5 '20 at 11:03, by BESW

(Bleed is the term for when players experience the emotions of the characters they're playing. It's not an inherently bad thing, for a lot of players it's a sign that the game is good. But it can be unsafe if the players and groups don't have the tools to handle it, and forcing players to use techniques that encourage bleed is a basic violation of consent.)

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage what game systems use it? I have seen it referenced in a few Q&A here but it's been a while since I remember reading it.

BESW

Some game systems encourage bleed, but asking which systems "use" it is like asking which systems use talking in funny voices or laughing at a joke.

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast that's like asking what game systems use Speaking as your character Vs just describing actions

Snap

KorvinStarmast

14:14

@AncientSwordRage Then it

BESW

It's something that happens when people roleplay, to different degrees depending on the person, table, and game, but it just happens.

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage I am not familiar with the usage, then, though perhaps Alice Cooper's old Song "Only Women Bleed" might be an origin? What is the etymology?

Bleed normally means to shed blood, and that is not what you are describing

AncientSwordRage

Alt text: the reverse side of a page where the ink has soaked into the paper and out the other side

@KorvinStarmast less bodily fluids and more ink

KorvinStarmast

That does not describe what you are talking about as regards a person and role playing.

BESW

It's a LARP term for emotional transfer between character and player, coined by Emily Care Boss in 2007.

KorvinStarmast

14:20

And bleed through derives its added meaning from how blood flows. Want to try and explain what you mean? You are not referring to ink flowing through a character in an RPG.

BESW

If you want to play dictionary, how about Merriam Webster definition 3?

> 3a : to escape by oozing or flowing (as from a wound)
3b : to spread into or through something gradually : seep foreign policy bleeds into economic policy

KorvinStarmast

Is bleed some kind of reaction inside the Player, or some kind of reaction inside the Character?

BESW

NordicLARP wiki on bleed

"Bleed: How Emotions Affect Role-Playing Experiences " Sarah Lynne Bowman on Nordic Larp Talks. What happens when roleplayer's in-game feelings spill into their real lives? How are role player communities affected by what happens in a larp?

AncientSwordRage

Say I'm roleplaying a character and something in the game makes them sad, if I'm now sad, that's bleed. If I feel angry about something in the game, that my character shouldn't be angry about, but I play them as though they are, that's also bleed.

@KorvinStarmast potentially both?

BESW

yesterday, by BESW

Jonaya Kemper wrote a twitter thread about how "bleed is a neutral phenomena" with resources for managing it.

May 3 at 0:29, by BESW

"The Battle of Primrose Park: Playing for Emancipatory Bleed in Fortune & Felicity" article by Jonaya Kemper for Nordic Larp.

nitsua60

14:25

@AncientSwordRage was about to drop this on meta, but you're here so maybe this can be headed off at the pass:
Okay, +1 because I think it's a good idea to tag some questions and to come up with a good, consensus set of guidance/principles. But I think I must be skipping gears, because I don't see what the first question you linked ("role-play with ability scores...") has anything to do with mental health. Is it the line at the end about how a STR 5 character claiming to be Paul Bunyan would be considered insane by those they meet?

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 bah clipboard SNAFU

BESW

"Bleed: The Spillover Between Player and Character" article by Sarah Lynne Bowman for NordicLARP.

> Participants often engage in role-playing in order to step inside the shoes of another person in a fictional reality that they consider “consequence-free.” However, role-players sometimes experience moments where their real life feelings, thoughts, relationships, and physical states spill over into their characters’ and vice versa. In role-playing studies, we call this phenomenon bleed.

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage Thank you for explaining that. Now I understand that usage/term. As an aside, I have found the best results to arise when the stat number informs but does not dictate a character's characterization. Letting the number drive your role play is the player forfeiting agency, or can be. This gets into a separate and large topic, but I think your question is at best opinion based. Not gonna vtc since you already have a good answer from Guybrush

nitsua60

@AncientSwordRage Oh, now that makes a lot more sense =D

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I think it can be good subjective

KorvinStarmast

14:31

@AncientSwordRage We'll see...might be a bunch of good answers out there. 😊

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast it's happened before

Hey all - great answers. I was afraid coming to this Q I would find it full of a) confusing chaotic with dumb and/or b) answers not based on real play (Good Subjective, Bad Subjective) but this is high quality. Good work! — mxyzplk Jan 12 '12 at 14:49

AncientSwordRage

14:51

@nitsua60 I'll respond to meta later

Jack

15:09

Hey rpgse'rs! I attempted to add a description to the new [Bleed] tag, rpgse says it needs peer review. Could a peer review it?

AncientSwordRage

15:22

@Jack that would be shiny

I think there's a reasonable case for having a tag to describe that concept. Calling that tag [bleed], however, is just asking for it to get confused with game effects that cause their target to continuously lose blood. — Oblivious Sage ♦ 18 mins ago

The Oracle

0

Q: Should we reject tag edits that improve a tag for a tag that we think shouldn't exist?

Sometimes we think that a tag should not exist when we see an excerpt/wiki edit. At the same time, should we reject such an edit when it clearly improves the tag excerpt/wiki, or should we temporarily accept it until we eliminate/discuss the tag?

discussion tags moderation tag-wiki

Tiggerous

15:43

@BESW Hey, how's it going? I've just been lurking on meta for the last 18 months. Perfect storm of events keeping me from being more active, new job, new baby, and started freelancing on top of that.

nitsua60

16:25

New babby! Congrats!

2

Everyone well?

Tiggerous

16:57

Not new anymore! But everyone was and is well.

KorvinStarmast

17:58

@AncientSwordRage this also is true

Tiggerous

But my rate of answer writing dropped off a cliff...

KorvinStarmast

@Tiggerous Grats on new baby and new job and freelancing. Also nice to see you break lurk 😁

Tiggerous

BESW called me out :P.

To be fair, I'm fairly well adjusted to to new role at this point, so maybe I should start keeping an eye on main again.

KorvinStarmast

Wait a sec, is there a summon Tiggerous spell in this edition of RPGSE chat? 😯

Joel Harmon

18:16

Success! Visited FLGS for walk-in for first time in probably a year. Owner still recognized me behind mask.

Hot RPG Questions

18:38

3

Q: How to play a low wisdom character with these flaws and ideals?

I've been roleplaying as my Dwarven Warlock for a short while now, and I've grown quite attached to her as a character. They have a wisdom score of 8, intelligence score of 12 and a charisma of 17. They we're 'tricked' I to stealing the book that would become their Book of Shadows. The patron is ...

dnd-5e ability-scores roleplaying bleed

nitsua60

19:51

A page full of Korvin, Tiggerous, JoelHarmon, and me... it's like 2018 wants its chat back =D

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 eheheheh, XD

Thomas Markov

20:15

@HotRPGQuestions we should probably have a meta discussion about the bleed tag.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov What would that be?

Maybe OS wants to start one, but aside from the issue they mention there doesn't seem to be much to it.

(As in much to discuss that we'd have to do on meta)

Thomas Markov

20:43

Yeah, OSage’s concern is mine.

We’ve 21 questions mentioning bleed damage already.

Probably should have a different tag name.

Someone_Evil

Is there some related/overlapping concept/term?

I might be biased towards such in general, but this seems like a good case for a double barrel tag name

Or, is double barrel the right term? "A-and-B" type name

Thomas Markov

21:02

BOGO Special?

Two-for-one Tagsdays?

Biarticular tag description

Someone_Evil

A quick googling tells me double barrel is also used for and connected names, though generally when it's places rather than surnames. Seems applicable though

Trish

21:27

@Akixkisu how to name it obviously. I would call it "bleed through"

where "bleed" is more "bleeding" as in blood

@ThomasMarkov sich as "medicine and drugs" to differentiate it from "food and drink" and "poison"

BESW

21:56

Bleed is literally the term. There are kinds of bleed (bleed-in, bleed-out, ego bleed, etc) but it'd be weird for rpg.se to invent its own term that nobody else uses just because some games use the word to mean something else too. We don't do that with terms like condition or move.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 Yep; story checks out.

Akixkisu

@Trish Essentially what BESW said. And if confusion happens, we can´react to that.

BESW

There's a decade and a half of theory and praxis developed around the specific terminology of bleed. rpg.se doesn't know it because our users don't talk about safety or LARP much.

And in the meantime it seems like nobody's ever tried to tag questions about bleed mechanics as such in the eleven years of rpg.se.

Akixkisu

Maybe you want to open a meta on what we should put in the usuage guide — specific terminology, explainers, etc. and differentiation, etc.

But I also don't exactly understand where this worry stems from — maybe sometimes we have to retag.

BESW

So let's let the tag ride with the meaning it's been given by the first person who's ever used it, and see if it actually DOES cause confusion in others. We do have other tags with multiple meanings, and generally confusion is avoided by pairing them with other tags like roleplaying.

Akixkisu

22:09

Like every day.

We retag.

And that is fine.

And maybe one day we will add a tag called "bleeding" but we don't have it.

BESW

The very best way to create tagging confusion (and I'm not speculating on this, it's based on observations from nine years of participation in a half-dozen nascent Stacks) is to mandate changes to organic tagging behavior in anticipation of a problem rather than in response to one.

Akixkisu

And most of that would be some specific system likely that would be distinct from what we cover in conditions-

BESW

(If a problem does arise, I propose emotional-bleed because it'll pick up searchers looking for similar terms without knowing that one specifically.)

Thomas Markov

@BESW seems like a good place to just start, no?

If we know we can do something to help with SE’s garbage search functionality we should, methinks.

It’s also a far more descriptive/intuitive tag, I think.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov Only from a standpoint of igonoring two decades of established terminologx.

Journeyman Geek

22:22

Also, meta + get the tag wiki/exerpt right enough, even if no one reads the damned things...

@ThomasMarkov No helping that 🤣

BESW

This whole thing, by the way, is an excellent example of one of the major problems with the Stack Exchange's core premise. We're 'experts' in something none of us have any training with at all, which emerges from a part of the hobby the site's users are mostly alien to, and we're trying to explain it to people who have never heard of it.

But it's part of the hobby and so here we are. Some of us are scouring wikis and watching recordings of old presentations, and others of us are expecting those researchers to explain their findings well enough to hold our own in these conversations without going off-site to learn about it.

Trish

23:05

@BESW I prefer that even!

BESW

@Trish I kinda do also. But so far as I know it's not the term, it's something I just made up off the top of my head. Which is not a point in its favor.

@Tiggerous Grats on what sounds like an excellent 18 months!

Trish

@BESW to me, just the term Bleed is not associated with the concept other forums associate with it. Emotional Bleed carries the idea better and differentiates it from game mechanics that are called bleed (some games make this the keyword on a weapon or status effect) and bleeding.

Tiggerous

@BESW Well, apparently there was a pandemic too, so...

BESW

23:26

@Trish We've got several tags that mean different things in different contexts and rather than invent new terms to differentiate them, we use other tags in association to indicate which context is meant.

BESW

23:39

Let's see if there's a problem before we start embellishing established terms of art just because people who haven't used the tag are unfamiliar with them. That way we can make changes which really address whatever problem arises.

2

@Tiggerous Ah yes, that too. Did you ever get a chance to try out Walkies With Grim?

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