TRPG General Chat

Thomas Markov

00:00

Yep.

Exempt-Medic

I think using the specific item with a somewhat different end result probably makes it different enough

Since it's not transfer it's actually cursing more people

Thomas Markov

Fair enough.

Someone_Evil

00:17

Is there a rule I'm forgetting which would resolve having multiple cursed people in close proximity?

Exempt-Medic

@Someone_Evil There's at least the optional simultaneity rule from Xanathar's

Although I now wonder if the attack can be redirected to one character and then another since "you [...] become the target instead." may not count as "a ranged weapon attack [being] made"

Someone_Evil

00:39

But now you are the target of an attack that is still being made, no?

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 that was very good feedback.

@ThomasMarkov creating a competition doesn't create activity, and sometimes hampers it (there's a lot of times someone's started up an exercise that I've opted out of because they decided there also had to be competition)

Bountymas just isn't meant to be a competitive score-charted exercise. It's based around charity. That's what I've suggested it for.

2

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener Maybe so. We’ve got three more weeks of this experiment, we’ll see how it goes. If it flops, it flops, and we won’t bring it back next year lol.

doppelgreener

While you're running it, you may want to consider that you're organising a race with winners in which you already have a considerable lead and you've got more distance available to run than all but twelve users, as well as a larger playing field (being a D&D 5e player).

There's, like, reasons I didn't run a high score chat in years prior.

2

doppelgreener

01:47

Actually on thinking about it I'd rather make this a formal request: please don't continue running this thing I've invited folks including you to do as a competitive event. It's not supposed to be, and I believe it is detrimental in multiple ways to the exercise. It was made that way without apparently asking anyone or seeking opt-in interest, and the presence of that high score chart changes this exercise for everyone for the entire season unilaterally.

2

It affects the event indefinitely in future years, I might add—even if you don't run it that way, now a lot of people who didn't previously know about this have been introduced to it as a competition about who has the most rep to spare, not an exercise of thoughtfully and humbly acknowledging those who have done cool stuff and still have privileges to climb through.

It's frustrating to me that I extended the invitation to see this happen to it. It's been made into something so contrary to the spirit and point of the exercise that it appears to have inverted it on every axis available.

I cannot disown it because it's in my name using the name I've been using for it. Moreover, disowning it will do nothing to rectify the fact the event's representation of this event is twisting it this way in perpetuity. That's upsetting.

I may not be able to just invite folks to do bountymas next year without the implication or even expectation that someone's going to open a high score chart to make it about who the Best Person is by some measure (who has the most rep, or who has been given the most rep), which it was never about.

This sucks. Please don't do that to this thing.

BESW

02:19

Also: making it opt-out doesn't help. If this kind of thing is going to exist at all it should be opt-in.

RowennaM wrote a twitter thread about "How Fantasy Costumes Can In Fact be 'Historically Inauthentic'"

Caldatelier shared on twitter a set of illustrations demonstrating "How to Sign Dungeons & Dragons Classes in Filipino Sign Language."

Jonaya Kemper wrote a twitter thread about how "bleed is a neutral phenomena" with resources for managing it.

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I’ve removed the post for now, I’ll rework it tomorrow and get your feedback before going live with attempt #2

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov Thank you.

BESW

"Wyrding the Self" by Jonaya Kemper for Nordic Larp. Wyrding the self is the sustained effort to decolonize your body from the mythical norm, and begin the process of identity alteration.

Articles tagged "bleed" on the Nordic Larp blog.

doppelgreener

If I may, if it's being made somewhat official on meta, I'd rather do that myself by posting to meta introducing what it's about such that I've been inviting people to engage in it.

BESW

@doppelgreener Thank you for speaking up about the problems with competitive compassion. A lot of us are so immersed in the assumption that competition is a default state, that we add it to everything else in our lives without thinking about the implications.

doppelgreener

02:34

Thank you

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener tosses keys to doppel

Show me how to drive.

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov Thanks very much. I'll follow this up in the morning and can try to compose something then.

I appreciate the understanding.

BESW

02:58

So, Kickstarter's trying to defend its pivot to blockchain services by using a blockchain company that does carbon offsets.

Even if most carbon offsets weren't scams that don't actually plant trees, and even if making new forests without careful consideration of the local ecology can be disastrous, and even if forests were efficient carbon sinks (restoring prairies would be both more efficient and less ecologically chancy), in the absolute best case scenario carbon offsets begin to have an effect on atmospheric emissions ten years after they've begun.

Also they seem to be confusing "please stop" with "we have questions you can answer so we'll be okay with this."

(KS also hasn't yet provided any concrete examples of how or why this will be "better for creators," and outside investigation suggests it's actually an attempt by the company to avoid responsibility for its creators from places like the EU.)

AncientSwordRage

03:37

@doppelgreener @ThomasMarkov this why I love this community so much

AncientSwordRage

03:50

@BESW so much urghhhhh

Can we not please?

BESW

Ian Yusem revealed another Hull Breach artist on twitter: CodexNoirmatic "graces Hull Breach with visions of psychedelic terror both alien and transhuman."

Spencer Campbell made a twitter thread of "cool weird west RPGs I dig"

Hot RPG Questions

04:46

3

Q: Does Heal end Sanctuary when fighting undead?

I am fighting undead creatures and have Sanctuary on me. If I use Heal does that end Sanctuary?

Akixkisu

05:15

@ThomasMarkov Would you mind clarifying that in the answer as well? :) rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/193431/…

BESW

Drifters by Gila RPGs. Cursed gunslingers in a voidtorn Slayers hack.

Akixkisu

Aren't homebrew this for me questions off-topic? rpg.stackexchange.com/q/193195/44723

BESW

will jobst wrote a twitter thread about "using specimens and reference in layout" using the car-pg TORQ as a case study.

Akixkisu

To add to chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/59905962#59905962 but maybe it adheres to the strict critera that we have for them, and I'm not seeing it.

Thomas Markov

05:49

@Akixkisu that doesn’t seem like “homebrew this for me”. That’s a feature that is already designed and is just checking for balance.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov Is it? The accepted answer according to them is the only one that addresses their question — to homebrew a value for them.

But maybe they are also just unhappy about the other assesments.

Fundamentally their question appears to be "What value of X would be balanced for this bonus action?"

And not whether the bonus action that allows a value x that they choose for reasons y is balanced.

And neither does it go in the direction of what one has to consider when wanting to homebrew such a feature.

Thomas Markov

Doesn’t seem any different than just picking a number to include in the question.

If the number selected is balanced then you guessed right. If it isn’t, we’ll, an answer should tell you what is balanced. If anything, it’s even more narrowly scoped than picking a number and asking about the feature. They’ve identified exactly what part of the feature to focus on for balancing purposes.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov That is persuasive.

Hot RPG Questions

08:08

6

Q: Can a Shield of Missile Attraction curse an indefinite number of creatures?

Shield of Missile Attraction (emphasis mine): While holding this shield, you have resistance to damage from ranged weapon attacks. Curse. This shield is cursed. Attuning to it curses you until you are targeted by the remove curse spell or similar magic. Removing the shield fails to end the curse...

dnd-5e magic-items targeting duration curses

Hot RPG Questions

08:33

5

Q: Does Proficiency bonus get added to rolls for raw Ability checks?

Suppose that I'm requested to roll a raw Ability check, such as an Intelligence check or a Dexterity check. (I realise that these checks are relatively rare, compared to skill checks such as Arcana or Acrobatics, but they still do happen.) Is the Proficiency bonus added to these checks? Does it m...

dnd-5e ability-scores proficiency

Hot RPG Questions

08:58

1

Q: Can a conga line of cursed creatures transport ammunition instantaneously across the globe?

Let's say I have one Shield of Missile Attraction: Whenever a ranged weapon attack is made against a target within 10 feet of you, the curse causes you to become the target instead. Let's say I also have access to an unlimited number of bored commoners cursed by the Shield. I make them stand 10...

dnd-5e magic-items targeting curses

AncientSwordRage

10:42

@ThomasMarkov a challenger approaches (wielding a magic stone).

Thomas Markov

11:05

@AncientSwordRage I think my issue with your reading is that “can” isn’t giving permission to throw the stone, it’s giving permission to throw the stone with this special property.

I can pick up a magic stone and choose to use it for a ranged spell attack, but I can also pick it up and throw it making an improvised ranged weapon attack, not using the magical properties.

By your reading, a familiar can pick it up and throw making a ranged spell attack, but cannot pick it up and make an improvised ranged weapon attack.

AncientSwordRage

12:35

@ThomasMarkov correct

It can pick it up and throw the stone or hurl it in a sling not in an attack

my logic is, when they do the throwing/hurling with the stone it magically becomes an attack

AncientSwordRage

13:19

I have invoked the burrito analogy

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage I think the actual argument that you have to make is that the spell"s rulling is more specific than the other spell"s ruling.

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu perhaps

for now I will contemplate burrito tokens

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage If you are using r20 there is a lovely pack on the market place ;)

I'm greatly confused by the fact that I didn't leave a comment on the Bait and Switch question — I wrote it while in the queue, and I must not have hit the button.

Someone_Evil

Maybe the site did a bait and switch with your comment?

Akixkisu

13:35

@Someone_Evil I noticed that the auto-selection feature sometimes diverts my attention, I conceptualise areas as "done" and move on — this is also why I don't use to-do lists. My brain removes everything except reading my calendar from my schedule once I place anything in there.

And it adds to many additonal steps to place "read to-do list" in there instead of the actual plans.

AncientSwordRage

14:47

this answer's going to need a glossary and a table of contents when I'm done

AncientSwordRage

15:09

@Akixkisu seems better now, I may snip the burrito analogy though

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage I think the comparison to the Pact of Chain does a lot of lifting there.

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu I think so to

Akixkisu

15:53

@AncientSwordRage I'm not entirely sure whether that suffix applies, though im kind of curious now.

AncientSwordRage

> Used to form verbs from nouns or adjectives
to make what is denoted by the noun/adjective
pixel - pixelize

@Akixkisu Here is the link to the freedom spelling of the suffix

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage Yes, I'm uncertain whether it applies to the Spanish loan word.

And I'm curious about that.

Time Magazine used "burritotion" once.

AncientSwordRage

I felt like 'to burrito something' would imply that your wrapping it in a burrito wrap, but 'to burritoise something' would confer the properties over to the constituent parts, making the spells 'burrito focused'

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage That would be burritoing.

(Though usually it comes with the connotation that you wrap yourself in blankets)

Thomas Markov

Burritoise: the chimera resulting from a Pokemon/Taco Bell collaborative ad campaign.

Akixkisu

16:03

I envisoned a hard shell turtle filled with beans.

Or soft shell if that is your preference.

Which if we use the greek origin tortoise would leave us with the yummy word "burritortoiseise"

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov new bounty out btw, your favourite kind

order

17:08

Aloha y'all.

I'm willing to admit defeat and accept the popular answer here, but I'm not convinced that changing targets doesn't trigger "when attacked" on the new target. I've added a comment to this effect but am wondering if I can get sources on this from y'all here.

Thomas Markov

@order I dont buy it at all tbh.

But judging by the votes, I appear to be the only one lol

Anytime you see "conga line" in a question title, you know it's going to be excellent.

3

Hot RPG Questions

17:24

7

Q: What are the colors of the colleges in Strixhaven: A Curriculum of Chaos?

The introduction to the Strixhaven: A Curriculum of Chaos DnD expansion states that PCs, who are students at Strixhaven University, start out in their first year in rather drab grey robes. At the end of the first year, they choose one of the five colleges, and receive a set of robes in the colleg...

dnd-5e strixhaven

order

18:34

@ThomasMarkov I am inclined to agree; it's part of why I was so excited to have discovered the bug.

And anyway, it may be contrary to the SE spirit, but I am often suspicious of the truth-discovering potential of pure popularity contests.

Maybe I'll ask another question to settle this.

Thomas Markov

@order what sort of question?

AncientSwordRage

18:52

@order not sure I'd call it a bug

To be a bug you need to have well defined parameters/requirements

Reminds me of this:

8

Q: Can an Arcane Archer choose to activate arcane shot after it gets deflected?

Inspired by Can I use deflect missile if I get an ally to shoot me? and Can a monk catch and throw an Arcane Archer's active Arcane Shot back at them with Deflect Missiles?, can a (friendly) Arcane Archer choose not to activate their Arcane Shot when it hits their ally, but then activate it when ...

dnd-5e monk fighter reactions arcane-archer

order

19:14

@ThomasMarkov a question along the lines of, "Does changing the target of an attack trigger abilities that activate when an attack is made against that target?"

basically attempting to query the "attack lifecycle"

Thomas Markov

@order That sort of question is best left up to specific rules interactions rather than a general question.

order

I see what you mean.

Thomas Markov

If you were to ask a general question like that, I'd probably VTC for needs details asking for a specific example to examine.

Cuz the answer to the general question would likely just be "depends on the features", but then that doesn't really tell you anything.

order

This is the fault of 5e for not being a sufficiently general TTRPG state machine.

Glazius

> Arrow-Attracting Peasant (2/2 Creature -- Human Peasant 1W silver-bordered). You may only rearrange your cards during your end step. When a card which shares a border with Arrow-Attracting Peasant becomes the target of a damage-dealing effect, that effect targets Arrow-Attracting Peasant instead.

AncientSwordRage

19:31

@order doesn't exist

yesterday, by AncientSwordRage

Also I need to get out of the magic the gathering iron clad rules mindset

order

@Glazius Still doesn't stop you from chaining effect retargetings!

Glazius

Well, yes, but Magic is explicit about how "instead" effects work.

And effects.

You can point to rule 614 section 5 in a way that you can't in D&D.

AncientSwordRage

19:55

@Glazius 4e has entered the chat

Hot RPG Questions

20:46

8

Q: Can you switch places with your mount using bait and switch?

If you made a Battle Master fighter and used Bait and Switch to switch places with your mount, would the mount or rider benefit from the effect of Bait and Switch? What would the cost be? Does this work from a RAW perspective? Does this have any substantial effect on the game?

dnd-5e mounted-combat battle-master

AncientSwordRage

0

Q: Burritoise Vs Burritoing?

I was explaining something using an analogy with burritos. If I apply the same burrito analogy to other examples, am I Burritoising those examples or Burritoing them? By analogy, say you were banned from buying burritos, but you had a coupon [...] [...] Now, if you burritoise/burritoing the othe...

word-choice neologisms verbing

@Akixkisu ^

Akixkisu

21:03

@AncientSwordRage burritofy was my first revision, it didn't survive it. I decided to use to burito — which seemed like the better choice. Burritoing is specific slang.

See urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Burritoing

goodguy5

We use "Burrito" in our household.

Well, honestly, we just yell "BURRITO" and then burrito the thing/person

goodkid5-burrito
goodwife5-burrito
goodcat5-burrito
uh.... chicken-burrito

Journeyman Geek

@AncientSwordRage ._.

I thought burritoing is to wrap something up...

"I burritoed the puppy in a towel"

Akixkisu

@JourneymanGeek That is how urbandictionary defines it as well.

Thomas Markov

21:19

Sometimes my daughters will ask "can you make me a taco?" The older one wants to be wrapped in a blanket and the younger one is hungry.

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov United in good ideas.

Journeyman Geek

Solution. Wrap the older one and feed her to... no wait...

Glazius

21:43

@AncientSwordRage Yes, you can also send an arrow across the continent with an arbitrarily large number of appropriately trained level 2 paladins standing next to each other.

AncientSwordRage

@Akixkisu -ify is a real suffix though

@goodguy5 I'm not talking about wrapping stuff up though

goodguy5

@AncientSwordRage ah, that's why I had that tab open, and I cannot quickly parse what you're trying to say. Let me come back and take a fresh look at it later

AncientSwordRage

@JourneymanGeek that cannibalises one (acted on by a cannibal) , and cannibalifies (taking on the properties of a cannibal) the other

Glazius

(though the appropriate answer is more that the combat rules are there to model like an acre at the most and when you zoom out to the entire continent things are going to get silly)

goodguy5

Though, I do have an issue with your supposition that a coupon gives you an exception to override a banned action.

Seeing as how, were I to ban someone from buying something from me and I were to find out that they were attempting to circumvent said ban with a coupon, I would be mad, and also not honor the coupon

AncientSwordRage

21:48

@goodguy5 I'm imagining it being a ban on using a credit card say?

goodguy5

like I said, lemme come back to it

Thomas Markov

@goodguy5 I really like this analogy.

AncientSwordRage

When you do: Like you call up the card company and say "I am eating too many burritos, please don't accept any transactions I initiate with burrito restaurants"

Then you find the loop hole around that restriction

Thomas Markov

My familiar has been banned from shopping at Aldi: "A familiar cannot shop at Aldi". However, he finds a coupon that says "You or someone else can buy bread for 50% off at Aldi." What happens when he tries to buy bread at Aldi?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov I see it as more like, they're banned from a specific action in Aldi, namely using a credit card or cash etc.

Thomas Markov

21:51

Does the Aldi manager say "Well, he's got a coupon."? No, the manager says "Sorry bud, the coupon only applies to people who haven't been banned from shopping here."

AncientSwordRage

Being banned form Aldi would be like being banned from combat

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage No, being banned from combat would be like being banned from all shopping.

The familiar is only banned from one aspect of shopping, namely, Aldi.

AncientSwordRage

The familiar can normally help by pushing the trolley around or reaching things from shelves, but the actual purchase is not allowed

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage Correct, and having a coupon that says he can make purchases doesn't circumvent his ban on purchases.

AncientSwordRage

Aldi is a place not an aspect. Aspects would be going to the store, going in, putting things in the basket etc...

Thomas Markov

21:53

Okay, let's get this closer to reality.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov ok but here's the thing, they hand over the coupon and no longer need to 'do the purchase'

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage Believe it or not, this is where I got lost with this analogy.

Let's say I send my dog into Aldi by himself with a wad of cash tucked under his collar.

Journeyman Geek

@AncientSwordRage hm, two things come to mind

Thomas Markov

Are they going to let him buy anything?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov I'm loving the image, please continue

Journeyman Geek

21:56

Medival Indulgences, or an exception for various reasons, like how in some places you can buy 'illegal' drugs with a prescription

Like the time I bought codine for my (late) dog

Thomas Markov

Of course they wont let him buy anything, even though he is the goodest of boys.

Journeyman Geek

@ThomasMarkov ah actually....

Thomas Markov

Dont make me try this out IRL.

Journeyman Geek

I walked in and went "Hi! I am here to buy drugs for my dog", they were very confused, called another phamasist, and walked out with a pack of codine

Thomas Markov

Now, suppose he is a service dog trained to make my grocery purchases.

Now they do let him buy stuff.

Journeyman Geek

21:58

@ThomasMarkov oh, I bought the drugs, not the dog :D

AncientSwordRage

I'm seeing it more like the ban says "dogs with cash not allowed at tills", and they see your dog has a coupon...

Thomas Markov

That's how Pact of the Chain works.

Journeyman Geek

@AncientSwordRage I mean, letter of the law...

Or if he has a credit card...

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov that analogy is perfect for that circumstance

Thomas Markov

Magic stone is not Pact of the Chain.

Pact of the Chain provides my dog with job-specific training to perform a specific task.

Namely, buying my groceries.

Journeyman Geek

22:00

More "these are the rules unless there's a specific exemption" :D

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov no it's not the same...

Thomas Markov

Magic stone provides a coupon usable by persons who don't need the job specific training in order to perform the task.

I call this method of rules interpretation "RAD": rules as doggo.

Journeyman Geek

reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/p71t9u/…

Thomas Markov

My 2022 New Year's resolution: answer as many stack questions as possible by first stating, "suppose a dog walks into the grocery store".

AncientSwordRage

I guess, my closest counter argument is that magic stone is a magic collar with a place to put cash/card and instructions that the doggo can use

Thomas Markov

22:05

@AncientSwordRage Nah, that's Pact of the Chain.

@AncientSwordRage Because why is a human wearing the magic collar into Aldi

The human can already do all the thing the magic collar allows the dog to do.

But magic stone allows the human to do something they cannot already do.

AncientSwordRage

Journeyman Geek

@ThomasMarkov I'm not judging...

Thomas Markov

I've got a Frame Challenge for you

You obviously really want your familiar to be able to make an attack, so just play a Pact of the Chain Warlock

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov I want to not be a pact of the chain more though...

Thomas Markov

And here is a brief guide I wrote on using familiars as a Chainlok:

16

A: How should my Warlock player use their familiar during battles?

Your options are found in two different places: find familiar and the Pact of the Chain feature description. We begin with find familiar: Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't ...

@AncientSwordRage I have a great answer to your question here: How can I play dumb?

That I intend entirely in jest

"Just be yourself"

AncientSwordRage

22:15

@ThomasMarkov 😅

@ThomasMarkov I saw that

Someone_Evil

Are you looking for attacks specifically or would you settle for aggressive non-attack actions?

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil I'm trying to understand the rules interactions

Because I'm visualising it as almost, the familiar can throw it up in the air, and the magic stone course corrects and hits the target

The familiar in know way initiates the attack, but they cause it to happen via hurling/throwing

1

Q: Magic Stone + Enlarge

Can a thrown magic pebble be a target to the enlarge spell? For that matter, can anything from an arrow to a hurled table become enlarged while in mid-air and if so how would you suggest fantasy physics would work on this? The enlarge spell states that the target doubles in all sizes but the wei...

dnd-5e magic house-rules

Unfortunately this is closed, but in this scenario, the pebble still would only do its base damage right because the action of Throwing/Hurling is not an attack ( which might cares about size of weapon )

Someone_Evil

I feel like I'm missing something? Why would size affect whether something is an attack or not?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov, how about this: Magic Stone is a coupon that you can exchange for the burrito by going to the store but not in it (as soon as the doggo arrives at the door, somebody takes the coupon to the till, and makes the transaction there)

@Someone_Evil my point is, if the attack was done with an enlarged pebble, the size would be factored into the damage (like when a normal sword is enlarged)

But the magic pebble just sees you threw it and converts the throw into the ranged spell attack.

Did the pebble octuple in weight mid-air? Doesn't matter it's a ranged spell attack. The spells does the damage, not the act of throwing

Likewise if it were a wad of cash under a doggos collar that doubled in size the purchasing power would increase. Not so with the coupon

Someone_Evil

22:35

I'm not sure the analogy is helping

AncientSwordRage

I'm not sure then...

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage woof

Someone_Evil

Magic stone gives the wielder of the pebbles (which is a great title, honestly) an option to make an attack with the pebbles, and specific effects when doing so. This isn't really different to any other rule (such as holding a weapon) which gives you an option to attack with it. Except found familiars have a rule saying they can't use any such options, as they can't make attacks.

Of course there are parts there which the rules don't do a good job of establishing, at least not if you're looking for MtG style rules. And I feel that pain

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov my doggo is rusty, but is that "I agree?"

Someone_Evil

The attack option language is something I've both been trying in my own projects, but also something I found pleasant surprise that the (new version of?) sun soul monk uses

Journeyman Geek

22:43

@AncientSwordRage You shouldn't leave your doggo out in the rain.

Also, you generally shouldn't oil a doggo.

AncientSwordRage

@JourneymanGeek sounds like a song...

Someone_Evil

@JourneymanGeek You'll want to attach a lump of zinc or magnesium to the collar instead

Journeyman Geek

@Someone_Evil what do you thing dog tags are? :D

AncientSwordRage

"Magic stone gives the wielder of the pebbles (which is a great title, honestly) an option to make an attack with the pebbles" i don't see how that contradicts?

Someone_Evil

@AncientSwordRage Contradicts what?

(I'll be honest, between the dogs, burritos and codine I may have lost track of some part of the problem being faced)

AncientSwordRage

22:48

@Someone_Evil my argument that the spell give the (previously banned) option of using magic stone

Journeyman Geek

@Someone_Evil 2/3 my fault :D

Someone_Evil

@AncientSwordRage Why? I don't see where magic stone gives a specific exception to find familiar

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil by merely providing the option?

Someone_Evil

It's no different to giving a familiar a knife. Those also have rules for how to attack with them

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil if the knife said "you can make a ranged spell attack with it by throwing it" them it's the same

Familiar or not, you can't normally make a ranged spell attack with a pebble

Someone_Evil

22:52

What difference does it make if it's a spell attack? Familiars can't make attacks of any type

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil because it is different to giving a normal knife to a familiar

Someone_Evil

Magic stone creates an exception to how you attack with the pebbles. That doesn't change or supersede the rule in find familiar

AncientSwordRage

If the spell text said " you can make a ranged spell attack, by forgoing a ranged weapon attack" you'd be out of luck as a familiar

Someone_Evil

That's just redundant words

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil the spell says it all happens because the familiar throws the stone, not attacks with it.

@Someone_Evil by that logic, all the other cantrips saying "make a ranged spell attack" are also using redundant words, no?

Someone_Evil

23:00

@AncientSwordRage No, the thrower is the one who makes the attack, even if they use the caster's modifier

@AncientSwordRage No, those cantrips have you make the attack when you take the Cast a Spell action

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil throw is not a special game term, it should be read as plain English (I haven't actually checked). 'the thrower is one who makes the attack' is not a counter argument, because you can throw without attacking....

Ok new analogy. Your banned from driving. You are allowed to 'drive' if you use an Automated Vehicle that you program. The spell/technology converts your instructions into driving

You still direct where it goes, but without actually doing the driving.

Someone_Evil

I disagree that that's an accurate analogy

AncientSwordRage

I think that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on then

(ok maybe not banned, but to use Thomas' doggo analogy, the sole being in the car is a dog)

Someone_Evil

I'd say it's more: You are banned from driving. Someone makes your car electric. You are still banned from driving

AncientSwordRage

... that doesn't make sense.

Why would the car being electric factor in at all?

Someone_Evil

23:12

Why would the attack being weapon or spell matter? It's still an attack, which the familiar can't make

AncientSwordRage

In this analogy the magic isn't being electric, it's the fully-automated self-driving aspect

@Someone_Evil under normal circumstances, but the spell grants permission by/on the condition they throw the pebble.

Someone_Evil

I fail to see whence the stones become auto-targeting and self propellant

Maybe power steering would've been a better analogy than being electric

AncientSwordRage

I think the fact the spell says 'throwing or hurling' is what is misleading? To me the text says 'you can do Thing A, by doing Thing B'

> You or someone else can ~~make a ranged spell attack~~ drive to the shops, with one of the ~~pebbles~~ self-driving vehicles by ~~throwing it or hurling it with a sling~~ plugging in the driving instructions.

Someone_Evil

Is there a difference between throwing and hurling I'm not seeing? (that could be a non-native thing with me tbh)

AncientSwordRage

"I can't drive!" No worries, just plug the directions in

@Someone_Evil not really

The correct verb for using a sling is slinging, but 'slinging with a sling' sounds wrong

Someone_Evil

23:22

But the thrower isn't alleviated all responsibility, they are still required to make the attack

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil they are required to throw, and in doing so they can make the attack

It's my whole 'permission by condition' argument

Someone_Evil

Wait, are you arguing for a non-attack throw? That seems to be the implication of that?

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil that's the only reasonable reading I can make from the non-standard text of the spell

Someone_Evil

I thought you were trying to have the familiar attack with it, not just place it somewhere

AncientSwordRage

If had the standard wording it would be

> You or someone else can make an attack, with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. Make a ranged spell attack.

Someone_Evil

23:31

Except that's getting you a lot of extra words without any real impact

Let's try this way, in general, other creatures can make attacks with the magic pebbles. Familiars have a specific rule preventing them from doing so. Ergo, the familiars can't attack

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage I intuited that what I was writing felt right to a degree but also iffy, so I changed it, and I was happy with the "to burrito."

Someone_Evil

But in general General v. Specific doesn't always work well when it's two specific rules

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil depends on if you agree with my line of reasoning or not? If you don't, it's unneeded words

@Akixkisu do you mean 'but -ify'?

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage No, it is a word play about feeling iffy about -ify ;)

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil also I'd say in general, creatures can make a (non-spell) ranged attack. The magical properties of the pebble allow you to make a ranged spell attack, so long as you throw the pebble

You can't just pick up any old rock and it be a spell attack

Hot RPG Questions

23:43

5

Q: Is throwing an object a free item interaction, or must it be a 'non-free' action?

Say you want to play keep away with the Campaign's McGuffin, throwing it to a friendly creature, preventing the BBEG from taking it. Or you want to hurl something in frustration out to sea. Are these free object interactions, or are must they be considered 'non-free' actions? This pocket sand que...

dnd-5e actions free-action

AncientSwordRage

@HotRPGQuestions and as the answers say here, throwing something is not normally an attack

Someone_Evil

Throwing with the intent to harm, would be though

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil intent to harm is not required by the spell?

I know this is all a very rules-lawyery interpretation, but I can't shake the fact the spell is written very differently than all the others

Someone_Evil

Why else are you throwing a magically enhanced hurty stone at someone then?

Akixkisu

Hm; I think you moved your argument in a position that makes the claim stronger (more work).

AncientSwordRage

23:47

@Akixkisu oh?

@Someone_Evil the restrictions on familiars isn't that they can't intend to harm anyone, like Asimov's three laws

Akixkisu

@AncientSwordRage This is I think your most persuasive part of the argument: "Here the conditional clause 'when <condition>, you can <auxiliary condition>' comes first, followed by the permissive clause, which is 'to allow your familiar to'. However, the meaning would be the same if we put the permissive clause first:"

Someone_Evil

@AncientSwordRage No, how are they throwing the stones at someone, with intent to harm, without making an attack? The spell tells it to make an attack, which it can't

Akixkisu

And it would follow that the familiar can make an attack because the ruling is more specific than the general rule that it can't.

If you instead argue that they aren't making an attack it is a much stronger claim that requires way more work.

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil it says they can make the attack though

@Akixkisu gotcha

Akixkisu

(stronger meaning worse in this case, you usually want weak claims)

AncientSwordRage

23:52

@Akixkisu that was my confusion, thanks for clarifying

Someone_Evil

@AncientSwordRage It it didn't have the word can, would you argue that holding one of the stones would force you to throw it?

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil yes

Someone_Evil

Do you now see what other function that can is having in the sentence?

AncientSwordRage

Can can have an overloaded meaning though.

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil It really depends on how you restructure it, do you use "makes" instead?

AncientSwordRage

23:57

But the function it has in the sentence is dictated by the 'by... clause'

Akixkisu

And what would the writer change about the other stones that they don't throw — they would have to add another clause.

AncientSwordRage

Brb, I don't want dinner to burn over this.... 😬

Akixkisu

Take care of your food.

Someone_Evil

@Akixkisu I'd probably say that this isn't the biggest issue I have with magic stone, but I don't really want to start going down the "what I would fix" rabbit hole

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