I get that, but if my character is an Artificer, something like this should be within the realm. Am I being unreasonable here?

Not necessarily. I mean this is something some groups like, others don't

I think a big problem is the inexperience of the group in general. I'm the only one that has played in multiple campaigns, and also the only one that has played outside of 5e.

Should I expect the rest of the group to know what they want out of a DND campaign without having ever played?

It really depends on the circumstances of the overall campaign, but even for an artificer, that'd be a hard sell for me

@Anoplexian They might take some time to figure out what they want, but rather than trying to go off and do your own thing, I'd recommend trying to help nurture them into figuring out what they do want

Try to engage them in roleplay-- heck, ask them to help you with X artificer concept!

That's great and all, but I'm both A. not good at that and B. wouldn't be able to have fun with my own character.

@Anoplexian They might have some idea. Usually when teaching newcomers to games I just flat-out tell them what kind of game we're going for

@Anoplexian artificers have ways to do this in the rules... Is the GM vetoing class abilities?

Just specific applications of it Sword.

Anything that has any circumvention mechanic for any part of the story that is not either direct combat or diplomacy.

@Anoplexian you could ask "what's the closest you'd be comfortable with me getting to a Gatling Gun"

Ok, I'll give that a shot.

I thought about just pulling out entirely. My thought is that it becomes incredibly difficult for even an experienced DM to balance between brand new and experienced players.

Just because the "level gap" for lack of a better term.

Yeah, this is one of those reasons I prefer easier systems

Well this is 5e, but I started on AD&D2.5e

I guess I just really enjoy a mentor-y role, but I can think of a ton of ways that I would leverage an artificer to get new players up to speed

@Anoplexian some advice on new/old players here

@Anoplexian the artificer class is pretty explicit about what is within the class’s capabilities.

It's a little upfront investment, but getting them in on the chaos is tons of fun (and means that the DM is less likely to feel like you're going off on your own and veto you on those grounds)

DnD is a bit of tricky system in particular because there are about as many playstyles as there are tables to play in

That's.....super useful Sword.

I mean, I can easily picture the DM writing in to say "I have a group with one veteran player and a bunch of newbies, and the veteran player keeps trying to do things outside the bounds of their class and going off on their own while I'm trying to get the newbies to figure out the basic rules and have some fun, what do I do"

And many traditional/memetic dogmatic takes that live on and on without due scrutiny

Yeah and that's my fear Cooper.

It can also be hard to fully express what it is that a person does want out of a game

If I bow out, the group loses its most experienced member and a lot of game knowledge for the group in general. If I don't, I end up partially spoiling the experience for the rest of the group.

@Upper_Case And sometimes you discover that what you thought you wanted isn't what you wanted at all once you've got it. (I think I was briefly possessed by Sondheim there.) I thought I would be someone who loved making weird class/race combos and getting really into RP, but it turns out I'm actually happiest when I've got a solid tactical build and can hit things really good in combat.

@Anoplexian Well, this is assuming that there's just absolutely no way for you to have fun while also not causing issues for everyone else, which I think is a false premise!

@LCooper Yeah, it happens all the time and especially with new players

Plus there is an element of "thin end of the wedge" requests, asking for something innocuous to justify something much harder to defend on its own. Though with a fresh DM that seems less likely to be a concern

@Upper_Case First character was a half-orc bard (who played a ukulele) and had a complex backstory. Then I discovered paladins, and have never looked back.

Maybe there's a communications gap about what to expect. Planning a linear story isn't the same as railroading.

It's unfortunate to have a DM who is insecure about their ability to signpost/incorporate improvisation and as a result says no to everything by reflex

It might be better for the group to learn their own way to enjoy the game

@Anoplexian Like, yes, if your fun is 100% predicated on being allowed to make whatever devices you want and to be able to go off on your own, you might be right on that front. (Although in that case, I don't know that 5e is gonna work well for that type of fun in general.)

I've had GMs who were reflexive about denying anything that wasn't explicitly in the rules. I imagine that they must've had some past experience where they allowed a player to bend the rules and it went poorly, so they don't want to risk it again.

A player with earlier experience can bring useful insights, that's true, but also baggage

It's not that, but I don't really find mentorship fun.

But if what you really love is finding fun ways to solve problems, your fellow players are a great resource for that.

I don't want to baby you. I'll help you out, sure, but just like SE I would love for some effort to be done beforehand.

It might help to explain to the GM exactly what you want to achieve by going outside the rules (i.e., building a gatling gun), whether it's just for narrative fun, or to get some additional mechanical benefits

I guess it's not so much teaching that I'm thinking about, as much as thinking about how to facilitate the whole group's fun (which I guess is a sign that I'm never quite out of DM mode)

Example: Last week in Strahd, we needed to talk to some ravens. My paladin has the highest charisma and best animal handling, plus a ring of speak to animals, but thematically, it made more sense to give the ring to our shadar-kai blood mage, and give him the spotlight

I still get the satisfaction of knowing that I had a good plan, and the other player gets a nice narrative moment on her own (player is female, character is male, that's not a pronoun mistake)

As for the linear story, I would guess that's what the GM is most comfortable with, considering that they're a new GM. Trying to improvise and react to the players all the time while maintaining some semblance of a fun coherent campaign can be very daunting.

Yeah, linear stories are really good for many things

@MikeQ It also makes prepping way harder! If the players go off in a completely different direction than they indicated they wanted to at the end of the last session, it's a nightmare

I'm not against putting a party back on track and I do have a tendency to wander, but I don't want my agency removed just because the DM is new.

At best you could advise the GM about how to be flexible, and account for player choices while also having a prewritten story to rely on

Like if you don't want me to go to Ravenica from Neverwinter just because there's a specific thing there, that's fine.

Well you might need to calibrate your expectations on how deep "agency" goes.

Granted, I solve this problem by explicitly telling them as they're making their decisions that X part of the world just doesn't exist yet because they didn't indicate they wanted to go there last week, but still

Also, since they're new, you could encourage a "training wheels" kind of narrative tool where the GM asks the players out-of-game how they should get from A to B. It's metagamey but if it helps then it helps.

I think a style I could get on board with is "This is the area, but it's open world within that".

@Anoplexian Do you mind sharing what module you're in? This sounds like it might also just be a problem with the module

I've played tremendously enjoyable games where my agency was limited to using codified tactical options from my sheet. It was a good game. Not the only kind of good game, but still!

Moon over Greymoor.

Many perfectly valid tabletop RPG adventures basically consist of a sequence of challenges, and the players are free to decide how they approach and resolve those challenges. The path is still linear though.

If the players know the campaign scope and they decide to veer outside of the scope because they feel entitled to some open-world experience comparable to a published video game, then that's just not fair to the GM.

In a sense, I've often found my agency to be enhanced, not reduced, by codification because uncodified actions are so profoundly at the GM's mercy to interpret and execute.

Yeah that doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

@mikeQ It's not so much that I want to go outside of the scope. I think it's more like having free agency within the scope of the area we're in. I'm not Amazon shipping in a ton of explosives, just to frag the BBEG, but if it's a town, and I dally for a bit with a goal in mind I would like to be able to do it.

I also think that my DM wants the party to be ONE party and ALWAYS stay together, but that's a separate issue.

Having the characters stay together makes the game easier to manage. Splitting the spotlight back and forth between player subgroups can be taxing.

Again, this seems like a situation where asking another player to tag along would make the DM happier about not splitting the party, and demonstrate good sportsmanship for the new players-- something like "Hey, Barry the Bard, do you want to come with me to the blacksmith to get springs for my latest invention? I was hoping you could help me haggle."

Yeah, that's a very common request in DnD and similar games and one easy to justify by the logistics of the game.

Frankly, I think players should be doing that sort of thing at all skill levels, to make sure the spotlight doesn't get dragged off to one side too often, but with newbies, it's extra helpful

@MikeQ Especially if the groups are "experienced player doing their own thing" and "newbies who aren't sure what they can do or what they would even want to do", and only one player is getting the spotlight.

It sounds to me you're not really enjoying the game, though. Maybe it's best to find a group such that everyone can enjoy their respective badwrongfun in peace?

@LCooper that seems very smart

Has the game actually started, or are these objections in response to the GM describing the game's premise?

@kviiri It does look to me from a quick google of the module that it's pretty dang short, so it shouldn't be a problem for too much longer anyhow?

@AncientSwordRage I tend to wind up being an accidental spotlight hog (I don't mean to! I just have so many ideas and nobody else speaks up and AAAH!), so I try to keep track of my party members' abilities and strengths so I can use my mildly-domineering tendencies for good XD

@LCooper same and I'm stealing that idea

Should I just remove the game recommendation tag?

That looks like the major problem?

@AncientSwordRage I definitely stole it from years of being told by teachers that I needed to shut up and let other students talk in class discussions, so steal away!

I heard "ok, anyone BUT asr have an answer/suggestion/idea" too often... 😜

@AncientSwordRage It looks like the question is equally focused on both parts, but the accepted answer is 100% techniques, so I'd say getting rid of the game recommendation tag seems fine

@AncientSwordRage Yup. That one and "Cooper is a pleasure to have in class, and if they'd just turn in every assignment..." plagued my school days.

@LCooper it also looked a little unfocused. Hopefully the recent edit will help.

@LCooper are you me?

@AncientSwordRage Either we're long-lost clones, or you've also got adhd!

@LCooper I'm in this and I don't like it

@LCooper bingo bongo.

I think I broke my DM.

RIP

Hey there ADHD crowd

@Anoplexian tried turning them off then in agai.... Wait no don't switch people off that can be permanent.

@G.Moylan hooray!

@G.Moylan there are dozens of us... dozens

@Anoplexian Cast mending?

@Anoplexian did you jiggle the handle?

@Someone_Evil mend GM is a 10th level spell

I'm trying, but he has psychic resistance!

@Anoplexian Use a Bug, Dark, or Ghost attack

Is there anything more terrifying that feeling a dunked biscuit begin to dissolve between your fingers? I don't think so

@AncientSwordRage slipping through my fingers all the time, I try to catch you every minute....

@LCooper not sure if that's what they had in mind when they wrote it

@G.Moylan It's not very effective.....

I have a game scheduled this weekend. First time running PF1 in a long while. Based on a prewritten module. Expecting 5 players, including a newbie.

...There's no follow-up question to that.

I think my DM is quitting.

Not because of me, but because he's not confident in his story anymore.

Argh, there's nothing like the nerves that come with trying to formulate a non-terrible homebrew review question...

@Anoplexian sad times

Morning all

Quick question; what's a word for when a suggestion is shot down? Like "oh, can we do this? - No, for this reason"

a rejection?

dismissal?

@Ben man rolling!

My bao buns are ready!

@AncientSwordRage how long have you been saving that anagram?

@bobble I looked it up just now

Nice, Ty!

I just had an old question pop up with an upvote, and I realised something I could add as an aswer

@Ben nice

@bobble did you know my username is an anagram?

looking at your chat history, it's an anagram of your full name

Everything's an anagram if you try hard enough

hey it's not hard to search all your messages for "anagram"

Also, if I keep bringing attention to it, I may get enough updates on a post to reach triple digits :P

very little noise there, too

ooh, should I shamelessly promote my +40-something posts until they crack 100? Is that the secret?

@bobble there's always another secret

@bobble sounds like a question for meta.se XD

"What It Takes to Turn a Video Game Into a Tabletop One" article by Luke Winkie for Wired. How do developers take open worlds and condense them into a form that fits on your coffee table? It's not easy, but when it works, it's incredible. (more about board games than TRPGs but we're blurring the distinctions, right?)

"[Q&A] Misha Bushyager (Orun)" interview with The Hardboiled Gumshoe's Office.

"Safety Tools for Tabletop RPGs" article for dramadice.com. X-Card, Lines and Veils, Debrief and many more. We explain the 10 most-used safety tools for tabletop roleplaying games.

BEAR (twitter link) by Cezar Capacle. Playtested once. Kinda works.