TRPG General Chat

AncientSwordRage

00:50

@BESW that was a great read

Now I want to make a lyric game...

BESW

01:14

@AncientSwordRage Frame challenge: every game is a lyric game.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW here's a lyric game "don't make a game, first person to make a game loses"

Actually, the game I had in mind was sort of a meta/frame challenge game.

Like a reverse roll for shoes, where everytime you take any action you roll a 1d6, and your target number decreases each time until it's impossible to succeed.

Or something similar where your character dies early/often.

Anonymus 25

Well you made a game, you lost :)

AncientSwordRage

Partly because the article says one of the points of the lyric games is to increase bleed/break down barriers between the game and real life which feels subvertable

@Anonymus25 dang you got me

BESW

@AncientSwordRage Sun's Ransom plays with that.

BESW

01:38

I guess Walkies probably counts as a lyric game.

BESW

01:54

But I feel like... it's not a label that I want to apply to my games?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that's fair, except like you said every game is a lyric game... :-P

nitsua60

02:40

SO Inc. acquired (SO blog) (Or will be, at least.)

5

trogdor

02:51

@BESW what exactly is a lyric game?

Hot RPG Questions

03:08

6

Q: How do I convert the DC of a check from AD&D 2E to 5E?

In the AD&D 2e supplement, In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil, there are rules given for the impacts of a noxious smog, as follows: Any PC exposed to [the smog] must make a Constitution ability check, with the usual bonuses for poison saving throws for dwarves and halflings. The paragraph goes on to...

BESW

04:06

6 hours ago, by BESW

"A Game Without Players Can Still Be Played" by Linda H. Codega. On lyric games, ownership, and what makes up a game

Hot RPG Questions

04:47

4

Q: Which CR 5-13 monsters can I use against an all-flying party?

If I run a 5e game for a crow-man party who naturally have all-day flight as part of their basic movement modes, which existing published monsters / encounter types am I left with who have either flight or ranged abilities that are equally dangerous as their melee abilities? Basically, can I cobb...

dnd-5e monsters gm-techniques encounter-design

Trish

09:11

Hmmm... would a question about tracking ammo in many games be somehow concise enough?

A. B.

09:33

> "A Game Without Players Can Still Be Played"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@A.B. I'm sure the computer is having lots of fun running the thing in the background with the monitor switched off.

A. B.

I haven't read the article yet, but that makes me think of Progress Quest :-D I suspect that is not what it means.

haha yes exactly.

A lot of these games seem... I dunno, a bad idea to me.

(Been reading the actual article.)

(The title is completely inapplicable, I think. The author may be trying to say "without characters" but abandoning making sense for the sake of wordplay.)

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

09:51

@A.B. RPGs do seem to be a home to many fringe 'well teeechnically', sophistric constructs that . . . don't really have a meaningful viability or applicability outside such a fringe.

Like Pun-Pun.

AncientSwordRage

10:09

@A.B. they don't fit the usual brain space of RPGs so they can seem that way but not be

BESW

10:26

@AncientSwordRage Since I've been doing an intensive Ruhi training this week (four hours every day), the article's attempts to categorize "lyric games" are getting me thinking about methods of meditation and guided reflection.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I'm interested to see what comes of that

BESW

I could put "Do not be content with showing friendship in words alone, let your heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path" in a classy single-page PDF on itch and label it a "lyric game."

AncientSwordRage

@BESW it could do well

BESW

But my thoughts are more about whether so-called "lyric games" have anything to teach me about my Ruhi work, than vice versa.

I've already folded a lot of my Ruhi learning into my game projects, most explicitly in Toward Better Tables and Traveling Librarians.

AncientSwordRage

10:55

@BESW is TBT published yet?

BESW

11:13

@AncientSwordRage My very first itch publication!

AncientSwordRage

yay

Hot RPG Questions

1

Q: Can you store a Twinned (metamagic) Spell into a ring of spell storing?

Ring of spell storing says: Any creature can cast a spell of 1st through 5th level into the ring by touching the ring as the spell is cast. The spell has no effect, other than to be stored in the ring. Twinned spell says: When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a...

dnd-5e spells magic-items class-feature metamagic

AncientSwordRage

11:42

@HotRPGQuestions @Medix2 I VTC as dupe

RevanantBacon

12:00

@AncientSwordRage I agree, that's a direct duplicate.

Thomas Markov

Yeah, I hammered it.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov I thought I heard thunder

RevanantBacon

@AncientSwordRage Also, this answer seems to be pretty on point. The plains, island, and swamp are probably spot-on, and the mountain seems to be a likely candidate. IMO the forest is the hardest to pinpoint, as there are plenty of elven forests that that could be, but Cormanthor probably makes the most sense.

AncientSwordRage

@RevanantBacon good to know

Medix2

@Trish I thought we had a similar question somewhere, but can't find it

Thomas Markov

12:10

Unfortunately, this still seems mostly opinion based. Needs 1 more vtc.

Medix2

Well, didn't find any, just found these

@ThomasMarkov I know some people will probably disagree with that, but the POB line is such a blurry mess. I'm gonna browse MSE and help page for guidance

Thomas Markov

POB?

MSE?

123?

ABC?

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN

@nitsua60 Quick, somebody tell me what to think about this

@Medix2 Forreal though, what does POB mean

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Pork Or Beef?

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon Beef.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Primarily Opinion Based

Thomas Markov

12:16

Oh.

I VTC'd for needs details. Because while it is opnion based, details could change that

This answer can be deleted.

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov I flagged as NAA as well, should pop up in review

Huh

Axoren

Y'all are doing this on purpose now.

RevanantBacon

Just checked review history and it's been marked as "Looks OK" by two people even though it doesn't address the actual question.

@Axoren I'm sure I am, but I'm gonna need more details than that :p

Axoren

Way of the Acronym Monks

RevanantBacon

OH, you mean the WAM?

Wicked Awesome Monks

Weirdly Agile Monks

Medix2

12:25

@RevanantBacon I know some people who say we shouldn't delete answers immediately because it sends a bad signal. But can't know if that was the reason

RevanantBacon

Willfully Arrogant Monks

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu Why did you review this answer as "Looks OK"?

@Medix2 That's a reason to skip the review, not do the review incorrectly.

Axoren

@RevanantBacon Wumbo Awful to Multiclass

Medix2

@Axoren Wumbo Awful is my new favorite alignment

3

Axoren

@Medix2 I'm still partial to Chaotic Hegel.

RevanantBacon

12:28

@ThomasMarkov ^^^

NautArch

@Axoren Chaotic Kegel?

Axoren

Hegel has done a lot of morality and ethical work in the philosophy sphere. Now, imagine if he was breaking the law.

A. B.

12:41

Pob pob pob pob.

Thomas Markov

Confession time: whenever I write a meta question, I hear "So What" by P!NK in my head before I post it. na na na na na na na I wanna start a fight

2

AncientSwordRage

13:08

@ThomasMarkov I can believe that

G. Moylan

13:32

is StackExchange the name of the company or just the website? The Prosus acquisition announcement only refers to Stack Overflow and I'm confused by exactly what that entails

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan I was thinking something similar but I've not looked into it

Thomas Markov

Looks like SE Inc was sold.

All of it.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov the whole kit and ka-boodle?

bobble

@G.Moylan the official name is Stack Overflow

G. Moylan

@bobble Then why is the copyright for StackExchange at the bottom of the screen on Qs? That's so confusing

AncientSwordRage

13:46

the question is do I get a share of that $1.8bil based on my site-wide rep?

G. Moylan

do we know the sum total of all rep on the SE network? Does that cross the billion line?

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan I don't think so?

the average rep is something like 100 isn't it?

G. Moylan

@AncientSwordRage no idea. There are several in the millions or close, but I don't know the average rep statistics

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan I think it doesn't average out well

bobble

9

Q: Add a note to the blog post on the company "name change" that the legal name is still "Stack Exchange, Inc."

The legal company name has been, for many years, "Stack Exchange, Inc.". However, in September 2015, a blog post was published that stated that the name was being changed to "Stack Overflow". This was later clarified as a rebranding, not an official change to the legal name. Still, we get a lot ...

feature-request blog company site-name

Ah, the name they use everywhere but legally is SO, but they're legally SE?

bobble confused

AncientSwordRage

13:51

@bobble ASR confused too

G. Moylan

It seems Stack Overflow is their trade name, meaning they refer to themselves as that and use that name is public spaces but their legal name is Stack Exchange, Inc.

12

A: Shouldn't the Terms of Service use Stack Overflow, Inc.?

The legal company name is still Stack Exchange, Inc. Though, we are now using Stack Overflow as our brand / trade name.

bobble

So they're both "official" in different ways

NautArch

@bobble Officially

Someone_Evil

"Official" seems to be one of those terms that break down when you try to look at it too closely

bobble

Is that your official position?

doppelgreener

13:58

Stack Exchange is being acquired by another company that's been a long-term investor

Someone_Evil

@bobble No, it's officially just a musing

Medix2

@doppelgreener Looks at star list... "Uh..." XD

doppelgreener

oh. that wasn't visible to me

Medix2

It is annoying that mobile doesn't seem to have a star list accessible :(

doppelgreener

[stars it some more to push it up the list]

I'm on desktop. My window was just shorter.

That crops the star list.

Which is basically fine! Just means one person might see "further back" in the star list than another.

Medix2

14:02

I am confused why there's so much blank space below it tbh

I wonder if it's in case there's a whole boatload of starred messages. Might be a desktop or mobile-desktop thing unique to me though

doppelgreener

there are a whole boatload of starred messages. at time of speaking, there are 12,527.

just that the top 10 are presented in terms of 'priority', where priority is some kind of loose function of recentness + number of stars

(also whether it's pinned)

and you only get all 10 if you can fit them in your screen

so the star list is just a transient view of the most recent/relevant stars in a much bigger star list

bobble

14

Q: More Stars - Userscript that frees up room so you can see more starred messages

Since I've never written a GreaseMonkey script before, I borrowed heavily from this script and basically played around with it until I got what I wanted. So credit to them for helping me get there. More Stars I don't like having my chat window fill the full monitor, but I found that with my pre...

script chat

Medix2

Ah, so there's just a ton of blank space because after ten stars it stops

AncientSwordRage

@bobble if only I could use Greasemonkey at work

doppelgreener

@Medix2 right

Thomas Markov

14:12

whats the most starred message in the history of the chat

bobble

so far I've found a 16-star message with my amazing powers of manual search

Someone_Evil

There's at least one with 19

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil the meta tag "just for fun" says it must be approved by the mods

can i post a meta asking for the most starred message and use the just for fun tag?

bobble

this would best be answered with a Data.SE query but I didn't find a suitable one

(at least I think stars are visible to them? I dunno)

kviiri

I've gotten to double-digits a handful of times

Thomas Markov

14:28

Oh wait, the just for fun tag is about proposing a just for fun question on main?

Idk, im gonna post it.

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil now 20

bobble

(warning: may be out of date) meta.stackexchange.com/a/279979

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov While the activity is maybe a touch navel-gazely, it should be a workable question and maybe lead folks to some fun discoveries. At least I fail to see how it should do any harm

AncientSwordRage

> na na na na na na na I wanna start a fight

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil "navel-gazely" you wanna run this one by me again

Someone_Evil

14:29

@ThomasMarkov Pretty sure the fun tag on main doesn't exist anymore

bobble

here's a good one from here with 18 stars

Mar 19 '15 at 12:52, by David Reeve

rpg.se should just have a big banner at the top that says "have you tried talking to the problem player?"

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov omphaloskepsis

Thomas Markov

"Today, Thomas Markov burned meta.rpg.se to the ground by staring at his own belly button while blasting P!NK's Greatest Hits"

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Fair, gazing at it's own stuff (naval) as opposed to something more outwardly productive

Medix2

"frequently used, usually in jocular fashion, to refer to self-absorbed pursuits."

Someone_Evil

14:33

Not really a problem. I mean we have the cheese collection, but the stars are already doing that job

One awkward point is that pointing folks to chat messages might cause additional stars (see above), but hey

bobble

s/starts/stars

Someone_Evil

You saw nothing!

bobble

the message before that too

AncientSwordRage

in Here There Be Dragons, 12 hours ago, by bobble

mod powers

bobble

Apr 1 at 2:28, by Someone_Evil

Except I can make it look like I got it right right away. Now noone will be able to tell!

AncientSwordRage

14:39

Apr 1 at 2:28, by bobble

grumble grumble abuse of mod powers

bobble

Someone_Evil

I mean, I could purge that history, but that probably does start encroaching on power abuse

AncientSwordRage

@bobble there's also the tell-tale pencil icon next to the message

The Oracle

0

Q: What is the most starred message in TRPG General Chat?

I can't seem to find a way to sort starred messages from TRPG General Chat. I want to know what message has the most stars. So yeah, this is supposed to be a fun post. Answers should include a link to the message and a quote block containing the message text. Most stars wins.

discussion chat just-for-fun

AncientSwordRage

14:55

Recent meta reminded me of this: rpg.stackexchange.com/revisions/59581/3

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage what is happening there

i dont see where doppel actually did a revision

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov "I can go hard and crumbly" -> "it can go hard and crumbly", makes the 'hard and crumbly problem' go from being about me, to the prop

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage I cant even parse this sentence

Someone_Evil

Go to the revisions

> My experience with expanding foam is that I it can go hard and crumbly.

Medix2

G. Moylan

15:41

@TheOracle "The Great Scrolling through the List of Stars" has commenced...

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan it's full of stars

G. Moylan

I was there when RPG chat collectively traveled the stars

Trish

16:37

@Medix2 looks like an autocorrect error

Medix2

@Trish Looks like just a missed key. I can't imagine anything autocorrecting "It" to "I"

Trish

@Medix2 minorcase i is autocorrected to I

G. Moylan

can you linethrough in an answer?

NautArch

~~yes~~

three dashes before and after

but why?

G. Moylan

it's not rendering in the preview

Trish

16:46

~~test~~

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch ~~~wh~~~y

G. Moylan

it works in chat but I'm talking about an answer

AncientSwordRage

^Hurmph

bobble

NautArch

@G.Moylan it doesn't show in the preview or it doesnt show at all?

linky?

bobble

16:47

No, Markdown is different between chat & main I think

G. Moylan

@NautArch preview. It's not ready yet

Trish

@AncientSwordRage my karen-repellent must be out... ;)

NautArch

@G.Moylan weird, i'm seeing the same I know i've seen it in answers.

G. Moylan

Oh, I guess I'm disqualified from answering a meta question because imgur won't let you make a throwaway account and I'm not giving them my phone number

I spent all that time, too

AncientSwordRage

<strike>strikeout tags</strike> work

Thomas Markov

16:51

@G.Moylan You can drop your screen shot into paint, copy it to your clipboard, and paste it directly into an answer.

AncientSwordRage

@bobble beat me to it

Trish

@G.Moylan SE has an imgur acount.

doppelgreener

@Medix2 i forgot about that :D

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov that worked, thanks!

@AncientSwordRage this worked, too

@NautArch here 'tis rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/11572/50702

I spent way too much time doing that

AncientSwordRage

@G.Moylan bobble beat me to it

G. Moylan

17:01

@AncientSwordRage ah, well thanks @bobble as well

bobble

@AncientSwordRage this makes me want to make a cc using two meanings of "beat"

Feeds

Needles & Nilbogs: My case against dystopias, and a few suggestions

posted on June 03, 2021 by Bardic Wizard

Over last weekend, I went camping with my family. It was nice to be out in the fresh air and with people I love, and I got to play with fire a bit, so it was very fun. But it got me thinking about books, because lately, I’ve been reading a bunch of young adult (YA) and middle grade literature, and I brought a few amazing books on the trip to (re)read. And because the library’s Summer Reading Ch…

Thomas Markov

Tomorrow will be the anniversary of my first answer.

bobble

would you like a celebration?

Thomas Markov

@bobble We should celebrate @Medix2

In the last year, we have 3959 questions created, with 2623 questions tagged [dnd-5e]

Ive written 754 answers, with 736 in the [dnd-5e] tag

bobble

17:20

Does that count deleted questions?

Thomas Markov

Some of those were older questions, but not many

@bobble No, it does not

So I've answered nearly 20% of all questions created in the last year, and nearly 30% of all [dnd-5e] questions

Medix2

17:31

@ThomasMarkov OR, you answered one question just truly a lot

Thomas Markov

"how to do game"

@Medix2 Real talk, I blame you for all of this

I wouldn't have gotten so involved if you hadnt been so nice to me.

Medix2

My good deed has not gone unpunished. It just punished somebody else XD

MikeQ

If you delete all questions that you haven't answered, then you will have answered 100% of questions

Thomas Markov

@MikeQ I told you not to leak my plan till after I run for moderator

AncientSwordRage

17:47

@ThomasMarkov now I know why BW is warning us about dystopias on their blog...

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage The Internet Point Man Cometh

AncientSwordRage

That's certainly a reference

G. Moylan

18:02

Huh, that's a first:

Axoren

18:27

That person upvoted you exactly once, and then was never seen again.

I wonder how much the most someone lost from a user deleting themselves was.

Thomas Markov

@Axoren There are some posts at MSE featuring pretty significant rep loss

Axoren

I have 372 Votes cast. I don't know how to easily (without scripting) total up the most total votes I've given to one user.

@ThomasMarkov Math.SE rather than Mathematics.SE?

Right?

Thomas Markov

meta.se

bobble

e.g.

37

Q: Which users getting removed DON'T cause rep changes? (lost 1667 rep)

According to the help on users being removed, on how you lose rep for their upvotes being removed too: This removal occurs whenever a user is deleted, unless that user had a very high reputation score. Because high-reputation users have usually cast a great many votes, removing all of the...

support reputation voting deleted-accounts

Axoren

Meta.RPG.SE? Or Meta.SE

Thomas Markov

18:29

831

Q: What does "user was removed" mean and why did my reputation change because of it?

Message appearing when a user was removed. It seems I lost 1765 reputation points on Stack Overflow yesterday. The reason given in my history is "removed", with the description of "User was removed (learn more)". I don't understand what that means. What caused this? Return to FAQ index

support faq reputation reputation-history

Axoren

Oh wow

Also, apparently it's MathOverflow and Math.SE that are distinct

So there is a maximal point at which you can cause the most damage to someone's reputation, after having boosted them to that point.

Otherwise, staff/moderators(?) will review whether or not to keep the votes?

-1700 Rep is still WAY up there

If you cast too many votes, they might keep your votes.
If you have too much rep, they might keep your votes.

That means that all those lurking upvote-ninjas that might eventually just leave the site someday could collapse our Upvote Economy.

Someone_Evil

@Axoren I think you could go through your own votes, but it's private data so it'd hard to automate. But it's not that many

Axoren

372 is more than I'd want to sift through manually, and I wouldn't want to code a browser scraper or learn the user API or anything

Besides, I'm not looking to delete this account anytime soon

Someone_Evil

@Axoren Definitively staff, thank heavens

Axoren

Poor staff.

G. Moylan

19:19

I don't imagine the number of folks with actions crossing that rep line that are also deleting their accounts is large enough that it would be a particularly burdensome task to review the impact of such deletions. Tedious? certainly

RevanantBacon

19:50

@G.Moylan If we believe in ourselves and work together, we can change that. Mass account deletion! Together! Fight the establishment!

Trish

21:36

Question on Stack if this fits the stack or needs to be cut together/altered still:

Ranged weapons are a mainstay in many games. Most fantasy games come with arrows, bolts, and sling stones. Wild West comes with lead, powder, and percussion caps in the early times and metal cartridges in the later end of the timeframe. Modern games blow out ammunition in the dozens - even hundreds at times.

However, all those expendable items come at bookkeeping troubles: Is there still an arrow in the quiver, is the next chamber a bang or click, or can the MG put out another burst?

In computer games and playing traditional games online, this problem can be mitigated by having some kind …

MikeQ

Traditionally, it would be the same way they track other numbers that can increase or decrease. Hit points, expendable resources, etc. On paper this usually meant erasing and rewriting numbers, or tallying if that's easier.

Someone_Evil

Why are you asking? Or: what are you intending to use the answer for? (giving that would be a good addition for the question)

Trish

@MikeQ which in my experience leads to holes in character sheets very quickly.

NautArch

Is the issue that you don't trust the players?

Someone_Evil

As in erasers ablate the sheet itself?

L Cooper

21:44

@Trish It seems like maybe a bit too subjective, but I will say that you can use wet and/or dry erase markers on those plasticky paper protectors, which helps prevent either wearing holes in the page with an eraser or, even worse, a smudgy pencil that refuses to be erased

Trish

@Someone_Evil the spot where arrows once were noted on my elven archer was an area where the paper was missing 2 or 3 sessions in. I went to track arrows on a separate sheet, but had to dig that up again and again. Shadowrun goes through magazines like crazy: the record in a single combat was well more than 300 bullets spent by 4 runners going full auto for 8 or 9 rounds. And I know that some of those most likely forgot to reload at the right time because they realized that mid-combat.

Someone_Evil

In my experience tracking ammo hasn't been worth the bother, but I know that's definitely preference

Given your examples here, I'll suggest it's probably better have the question specific to each game, because the expected parameters and solutions are vastly different

On the general idea that questions are served by being as specific as possible

Trish

possible... and with most games you don't need to track more than about... 12 or such. And then there's shadowrun where we created that bullet-hell where one player just counted what they shot... but I am quite sure they didn't spent the appropriate reload actions...

G. Moylan

so, we don't accrue rep by interacting on Meta but we can get badges?

what is the point of that?

Someone_Evil

@G.Moylan Correct

@G.Moylan I don't know if it's ever been justified anywhere.

They are separate, so I fail to see the harm. And they can help give some indication of how much activity a given user has on meta, for what little that's worth

Trish

22:05

@G.Moylan we had a separate meta rep some years ago. It lead to people getting question banned on meta on some stacks - because they asked how to improve on the main.

G. Moylan

@Trish how is rep a factor in that? What am I missing?

Trish

@G.Moylan they had triggered the auto-block due to low quality questions - which was a function of the reputation

G. Moylan

@Trish ah, that would do it

Trish

and since meta had its own rep counter, it lead to people with good main rep ending up with suspensions on meta...

BESW

@Axoren I think the most I've lost was 60 at a go.

L Cooper

22:12

@Trish That's both deeply unfortunate and extremely funny

G. Moylan

@LCooper yeah the irony there is undeniable

NautArch

@Trish I still don't totally understand the problem :( How is ammo different than other primary resources in terms of tracking (like HP/spell slots/etc/)

Trish

@NautArch in Shadowrun, you have about 8-10 HP. But you can (at the absolute most) go through up to 40 bullets per gun and round. With a pair of Sakura Fubuki pistols (the only weapon on top of my head that even has 40 bullets) that's 80 shots at full auto - and full auto has quite some benefits when it comes to hitting. But a full auto salvo is anywhere from 4 to 10 bullets...

NautArch

@Trish I haven't played shadowrun, but is it common/uncommon to track ammo?

Like in 5e, ammo tracking is part of the game, but as @Someone_Evil said, lots of folks simply don't deal with it (or rations).

Trish

it is required to track ammo as there are rules for reloading and stuff.

NautArch

22:21

@Trish Well, there are rules in 5e, too. But DMs can not require it and often don't.

Is that the same in shadowrun?

Trish

and you need to buy the stuff... and if you are hit with a bomb you might need to know how much ammo you carry, because some ammunition also can go boom

NautArch

But either way, you like tracking ammo and I assume your GM/players like it, too.

So it's more about you are trying to find a system that works for your group - but I"m not really sure why it's difficult to track (or more difficult than anything else?0

Trish

@NautArch Tracking ammo is not optional in Shadorwun.

Current finish line: How could players track the ammunition for their runners in a way that is easy to verify for the GM at a distance, fast to update, non-destructive to the character sheet, and not prone to being knocked over such as a stack of dice?

L Cooper

Is it just that the values change basically every round by a large value that may vary from round to round, meaning that it's a pain to keep track of?

NautArch

@Trish That doesnt' seem to be the way everyone plays by just googling for tracking ammo in shadowrun.

Trish

22:23

@LCooper YES!

NautArch

But again, this is about you and your table :)

Trish

@NautArch Many players I know use just square paper and start to make hashes for each shot fired and stop a line when it is long enough to be a reload... that's one answer that comes to my mind, but that's not really easily verifyable from afar.

L Cooper

@Trish I think that that information is really important for the question! The variation in how much ammo might be expended and the rapid changes (plus the fact that it changes every single round) seems like vital information.

And differentiates it from the tracking of HP in other games, because that doesn't usually involve values changing every round.

NautArch

@Trish So is the issue not how to track, but how to track in a way that the GM can verify? I mean, that's a serious issue of lack of trust.

Trish

@NautArch tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BottomlessMagazines is what happens if you don't know how to keep track.

which destroys the game.

L Cooper

22:29

@NautArch It could also be just wanting to get a quick look at where everyone is in terms of combat, and/or gently verifying things-- sometimes players do just forget to deal with a mechanic.

NautArch

@LCooper I dunno, I generally trust my players to manage their stuff. If they're cheating or making a mistake, then that's on them. I've got enough to manage besides verifying their sheets (which I can't, because I'm not tracking their usage anyway)

So even if they had it wrong...I wouldn't know it was wrong.

L Cooper

@NautArch I agree generally, I guess I was mostly thinking about the times that I've had brand new players-- and also my own propensity to forget about mechanics and be bad at math (seriously, who let me be a DM); having someone say "Hey, Cooper, did you track your ammo?" could be useful in some situations.

Trish

@NautArch it's also to know if you need to tone down your oposition because your runners are totally out of options or stuff. Or just the GM waiting for the one moment that Abel needs to reload to do something or stuff.

Current status:
The real problem however is when games combine many people shooting with shooting a lot. And when shooting isn't happening consistently. This gets us to Shadowrun: Firearms can let loose between one and 10 rounds per action of the runner, runners can have between one and four actions and could shoot akimbo.

In a scene that turned into a bullet hell, I was one of 5 runners. While we fought some rather resistant *thing* and I took a lot of drain, the other four spent several hundred bullets shooting full-auto. I am sure that at least two players lost count of what was left in…

NautArch

@Trish You can't just ask them how their ammo is?

Trish

@NautArch which is a telltale while some sort of page that is visible anyway isn't.

@NautArch You seem to be trying to make this a trust problem when I am looking for a solution to the mechanical problem that is tracking ammo. It is much less a trust problem but that players just... are not good at it.

G. Moylan

22:36

I think @NautArch is trying to understand in good faith. You can break any rule you want in D&D 5E as long as your group has collectively decided it's ok, so I think it's a foreign idea to some of us that the rules of a given game are so stringent that you can't flex them at all

NautArch

@Trish I don't think i'm being clear, i'm sorry. I'm trying to figure out the core problem. It isn't just 'tracking', but 'tracking' in a way that the GM can also see, correct?

L Cooper

@Trish Could you clarify what you mean by a stack of dice? One thought that's coming to mind is to use percentile die to count down, but I don't know if that passes that condition

BESW

I'd be inclined to sub out a different ammo system that's easier to track. There's so many which still provide tactical choice but don't require that level of attention when they're not being actively tactical.

Trish

@NautArch 5 goals: 1) Easy to handle at the table (as in: no phone app) 2) FAST to update (no calculators!) 3) not on the charsheet 4) not prone to accidental falsification and only then for the GM to see.

NautArch

@Trish I don't think there is anything that won't be prone to accidental or purposeful falsification.

And googling about ammo tracking in shadowrun did bring up a bunch of results of forums that talk about using different systems or tools like @BESW suggested.

Trish

22:41

@LCooper a player had used a d6 for his revolver... and accidentally put that into his dice pool once. Persistency lost/accidental falsificaton achieved. The d20 someone used? Knocked over and ended on the wrong side.

even a stack of d6 was used... and someone borroewed a few of those ammo-markers to roll.

NautArch

Unless the usage of ammo is automated, there will be no tracking system that won't fail the falsification task.

BESW

Personally I'm fond of "bottomless magazine until it's emptied as a cost."

Trish

@BESW bottomless magazine with a 5-shot revolver is not great.

REwrite of question itself:
How could players track the ammunition for their runners in a way that the amount of ammo left in the gun is easy to spot at a distance, fast to update, non-destructive to the character sheet, and not bound to a movable object (dice, marker) that might be accidentally shifted?

Someone_Evil

I think the key phrase there is Style of Game, and there's clearly some ideas going around here which fit different styles

BESW

@Trish Well those sound like issues with table organization. I bought chopstick bowls for everybody to put their dice in.

G. Moylan

22:45

^^

Trish

@BESW table organisation is somethign that soooo often is never achieved.

Someone_Evil

More for the question itself, would this fall under player-techniques? A underused tag I suspect

NautArch

@Trish Honestly, that's a more solvable issue than what you're asking. You're trying to fix the symptom, but the problem is table disorganization getting in the way.

Fix that, and the other problem resolves.

bobble

@Someone_Evil underused as in not many questions are asked that fall under it? Or underused as in not used on questions where it would fit?

Someone_Evil

That might be the best argument for a No touching others dice rule. You never know what it might be being used for at that moment

Trish

22:48

@Someone_Evil organisation

BESW

Do you have a player who enjoys doing this kind of tracking? At one of my tables we had success giving that person the tracking of variable conditions and such for everybody.

Someone_Evil

@bobble A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B

Trish

@BESW I'll need to re-boot the whole shadowrun round from ground up once table play resumes... I have no idea who might join then, because we are still in the last phases of lockdown.

BESW

For myself in my own game design I'm toying with adding non-character roles for players that could include bookkeeping.

NautArch

Using Fate for ammo tracking seems neat.

BESW

22:54

"Lock and Load: Using Ammo in Fate" by Brian Engard for Fate Codex.

Trish

@NautArch Not a fan of Fate for other settings.

NautArch

ANd it's not really solving the ammo tracking, it's abstracting. So not likely a good solution, but made me think of using something like that in a low-resource situation instead of tracking.

Powerdork

Other settings?

Someone_Evil

With my game design musings hat on, I'm enjoying the idea of using stochastic for ammo. Eg. you need to reload on a 1 on a d6 for a revolver. But again, I think different game style

NautArch

@Someone_Evil That might be fun with a grittier 5e game.

But seems like a punishment for ranged?

BESW

22:59

@NautArch Now I'm also thinking about adding tactical complexity by, say, allowing reloading as part of an attack by sacrificing a 5 or 6 on the attack roll.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch Having range typically is an advantage in itself, so you'd expect a drawback somewhere (eg. lower damage, having to track and replace ammo)

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