TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:01

My knee-jerk reaction to that is that I've seen how the Dresden Files demonstrates that diegetic legislation of morality becomes an invitation to the players to play in the grey area.

bobble

(my off-topic reaction to that message is that "diegetic legislation of morality" is a delicious turn of phrase)

BESW

@MikeQ In D&D wouldn't that just be adding the [evil] descriptor to mind control spells. (does 5e still have [evil] tags?)

MikeQ

No, as far as I know, 5e doesn't have spell descriptor tags like in 3.x. But it could. Adding descriptor tags wouldn't break the system. Might require some sort of reference index to keep track of which spells have which tags.

BESW

Ultimately my rip-it-out-and-start-over solution is to remove compulsion magic from the core game entirely because it's gross.

MikeQ

Jan 19 at 3:33, by MikeQ

If you've read through some of Gygax's forum posts about alignment and the morality of dealing with evil creatures, it mostly makes sense in a war story with clearly defined good and evil, and makes much less sense if you try to, say, expand the system into an open fantasy world with people and societies in it

BESW

00:05

Games that deal with that sort of loss of agency should be designed with care to avoid trivializing or justifying it, and the kind of pulpy adventure D&D caters to just doesn't really lend itself to that care.

The Oracle

1

Q: How do we handle questions that are repeatedly closed and reopened?

I recently posted this question about character optimization. I made several revisions to it, and it received the required five votes to be re-opened, so clearly some part of the community felt that it was a perfectly valid question. Only a few hours after it was re-opened, it was closed again, a...

bobble

@TheOracle uh that title should be "questions" not "answers"

MikeQ

fix'd

bobble

thankee

BESW

A friend in another chat suggests subverting the worldbuilding by adding an organization which does go after mind-controllers: mind flayers are actually elite strike teams that take out people who use mind-control, and their "thralls" are the people they're helping recover from the trauma of being mind controlled. Maybe the ranks of mind flayers are mostly filled by such people who dedicate their lives to saving others from the same experience.

AncientSwordRage

00:17

@bobble double fixed

Hot RPG Questions

00:30

4

Q: Fighter/Ranger Character (Beastmaster included)

So at levels 5, 11, and 20, the Fighter Class can have multiple attacks. Can I dedicate a number of attacks to my companion(s) if I had them use one of my attacks? Example: At level 11 Fighter and Level 5 Ranger, I want to make an attack. I have three attacks as a Fighter, and I want to dedicate ...

dnd-5e multi-classing ranger fighter

BESW

Kazumi Chin wrote a twitter thread about the need to adopt game design discourse that is "creative," not "diagnostic."

trogdor

@BESW I mean why not just create a force of people who aren't squid things that already have outside culture reference to being mind controlling body stealing icky things XD

IE just throw out mind flayers entirely then add in a nice organization that does that stuff you mentioned

BESW

If I kept the squid aesthetic, I'd have it be just that--an aesthetic. Prosthetics/illusions to hide identities.

I do think it'd be just as effective a concept, if not more so, if it yeeted the D&D context entirely and was its own thing.

But that's true of pretty much anything I like about a D&D setting.

bobble

00:53

@TheOracle rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/q/7147 ?

BESW

01:16

"A Dozen Fragments On Playground Theory" by Jay Dragon

Adeptus

01:59

I just bought 2 more PDF bundles I'll probably never play... Bundle of Holding has a Mythras bundle and Humble Bundle has a Tales From The Loop & Symbaroum bundle (Humble also has a Pathfinder 2 bundle, which I'm considering...)

trogdor

02:26

@BESW all I mean really is a lot of things (mostly tied to D&D to be fair) use Illithids in the same way as D&D and would kinda necessitate divorcing your idea in a clear way from them

It's not so much that I think the idea is just bad as that it would take some extra work in that area

Medix2

03:01

Correct me if I'm wrong, but people cannot vote to close this question because it now has a bounty, right?

bobble

@Medix2 yep, but a mod can manually clear the bounty if needed

Adeptus

03:20

@BESW twitter.com/Tybawai/status/1396847861409669127?s=20

Ben

03:31

Afternoon all

I give epilepsy a 0/10. Do not recommend.

bobble

What would you recommend?

Ben

Downs Syndrome

I would not be mad if I had Downs

I had an incident this morning, went to park and hit the wrong pedal, accelerated into the fence

bobble

and this is why I'm afraid to get a driver's license

Ben

Cops and ambulance came. I was fine the worst damage was to the fence... but just because I have epilepsy, they're blaming it on that

In all honesty I'd be much happier just taking the points on my license and paying damages. I spent 10 years trying to get my license DX

Hot RPG Questions

03:53

7

Q: What are Mythic Actions?

Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft features a creature called a Dullahan. Dullahan has a feature which allows it to come back to life after being reduced to 0 hit points, and doing so allows the Dullahan to use its Mythic Actions, a section of the stat block that looks a lot like Legendary Actions....

dnd-5e monsters actions

A. B.

06:56

gh, yes. I see what you mean.

kviiri

@Ben Sounds nasty :( I'm glad you're not badly hurt though.

BESW

08:03

Wanderhome's Sunshine Natures by Maria Mison. a sonic experience to 6 new additional natures for the iconic game Wanderhome

Ben

08:42

@kviiri thanks :)

BESW

TIL that Paizo has (or at least had, for some of its existence) a style guide requirement for columns always reaching the bottom of the page (except at the very end of a section). The way to accomplish this is to take your work-for-hire text which you own completely because work-for-hire writers don't retain any control or ownership, and have somebody (devs, editors, but never the original author of the text, they're paid and gone) add/cut words until the column is the right length.

This is something that's been common in print newspapers/magazines for a very VERY long time and I'd be shocked if certain other major players in the TRPG publishing business didn't have similar practices.

So, next time you see players litigating word choices like overpaid lawyers interpreting a predatory TOS, keep in mind that some of those phrases may exist in their published form simply to make the page look nice.

2

(Also, that just because somebody's name is on a product as a writer, doesn't necessarily mean any of the text is the way they wrote it.)

AncientSwordRage

09:32

@trogdor I mean if you can go squid things, then why wouldn't you?

trogdor

lol

AncientSwordRage

Alternatively you could either go for a society of mice, or potentially crabs. I could see either working.

trogdor

well in this particular case there might be issues?

but I could be wrong too

AncientSwordRage

Mice is overtly a HHGG thing, but crabs are just a thing I like

trogdor

basically my whole point centers around people already knowing what Illithids are, and possible copyright of Illithids too

AncientSwordRage

09:34

@trogdor I don't think they need to sell a magazine about their work....

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Everything better with crabs.

AncientSwordRage

@trogdor that is a point

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica everything wants to be crabs

BESW

I'm a fan of Okorafor's "what did an octopus ever do to you" attitude to the standard "scarymorph" tropes.

I'd be tempted to do some reclamation work in that vain.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW squids and octopuses can be very cute

BESW

Especially since D&D ripped off the "squid for a head" scarymorph in the first place anyway.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

09:39

@AncientSwordRage 'Cute' is an unwise tag to apply to a wild animal or a fellow sapient creature. But octopodes certainly did see some use, in games like Fantasy Trip, Transhuman Space, Eclipse Phase, and surely others.

trogdor

@BESW that's all fair enough too

AncientSwordRage

@BESW true

MTG also has Cephalids, which are in my opinion, a better scary creature

Medix2

11:20

Looking into close/reopen votes, I see that after 14 days they are away and can be recast. But the same post announcing that change states: "once a question has been closed and reopened you're still blocked from voting in the future - the close "wars" of the past will remain firmly in the past." Does this mean you only ever get one effective close vote on a question, ever?

By "effective" I mean that if your vote actually results in the question being closed or reopened, you can never cast that same type of vote again. But if it doesnt result in a closure or reopening, then you can recast it after 14 days?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Medix2 I recall being able to recast a close/open vote after it expired before, yes.

I'm not sure if that was after close-open cycles.

Medix2

I'm trying to figure out if "If the question has at least 100 views, close votes will age away after 4 days; otherwise close votes will age away after 14 days. Each new close vote resets the timer, so all close votes must be at least 4 or 14 days old respectively before aging occurs." (From the privilege page) is actually true since, as far as I can tell, it isnt?

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I'm not sure I understand.

Votes definitely age at some point, and once one's vote has aged, it can be re-cast.

Medix2

Right, but it does seem like if your vote results in a closure, it cannot be recast

But it also seems like there are two completely different methods of votes aging where questions with more views have them age even faster

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Ah, well that is the 'only one closure and one opening per question' caveat.

Medix2

11:33

Which is technically false because aging and recasting XD

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Why? If your close vote aged, you did not participate in a closure.

Medix2

Which isn't what it says

"each individual user may cast at most one close and one reopen vote per question."

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Yes, you may cast one. You can have it refunded.

I can only buy one instance of HITMAN 2016 into my Steam inventory. Which I did. Then I refunded him, because early-release was buggy. Then I bought him again after trying the demo a year later and seeing it was fixed. Same with close votes.

Medix2

I wouldn't say that's clear, but okay

I would definitely say you bought the game twice

Finally found what I wanted

Thomas Markov

11:59

aay I hit 500 bronze badges

SmokeDetector

12:10

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (348): Will this house-rule method of choosing prepared spells unbalance the game? by Barbara on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

Thomas Markov

24 seconds to delete, nice work.

kviiri

I was just thinking one day that we seem to be having less of this stuff floating around nowadays

Thomas Markov

12:35

@Someone_Evil you think they should add you in the mention when smokey posts here?

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Is this what they call the big 50(0)?

kviiri

I think the spam controls should have fairly rigorous auto-deletion so the need for actual mod intervention shouldn't be needed

But I'll let the mods themselves opine on this

Thomas Markov

@kviiri Sure, but it would still make sense to ping SE since Rubiks isnt exactly active.

Someone_Evil

I've considered requesting it, but decided against it. I don't feel the need to get those as mentions

Thomas Markov

Someone reply to this message, trying to see if Ive got notifications set up on my phone

Someone_Evil

12:42

@ThomasMarkov A someone replies to this message

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil I volunteer to put mine in there, I'll usually see it and get another spam flag in there

NautArch

Sadly, i think we need to delete dis

Thomas Markov

Yeah, NAA.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov I don't know more about that process than "Ask in Charcoal HQ"

NautArch

@Someone_Evil Not so sure about leaving that bounty up. DOn't we usually not allow workarounds even if they were accidental? Precedents and all that.

But honestly, I want to ask them if the question they currently have is helpful to them.

Thomas Markov

12:51

@Someone_Evil So you dont mind?

kviiri

@ThomasMarkov Ah right, I hadn't noticed it pings Rubik either

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Not at all

Thomas Markov

@kviiri I got a phone ping for this message! It works!

Spevacus

Howdy ho!

Thomas Markov

o/ @Spevacus

Spevacus

13:03

Alrighty, so the !!/notify command is pretty straightforward. The proper syntax for it is !!/notify <room id> <site domain name>, so for you this would be !!/notify 11 rpg.stackexchange.com

Go ahead and run that last bit for me.

Thomas Markov

!!/notify 11 rpg.stackexchange.com

Spevacus

Well, it looks like this room isn't configured to reply to that request, but given that Rubiksmoose uses it, we should be good to go!

doppelgreener

@Medix2 yes, just to confirm: if you vote to close, and the question is closed, your vote to close that question is now used up. If it's reopened again, you cannot vote to close again. You can still vote to reopen! Voting to reopen has the same limitation. This exists because otherwise close-reopen wars would be indefinitely long. This way though, each side pushing for it to change again has to have +5 people who agree. Eventually, the majority side wins.

Reopening has a tie-break advantage. If 5 people vote to close, and 5 vote to reopen, and that's it, it's going to be open.

Thomas Markov

@Spevacus Cool, I guess we'll see next time we get spammed? :P

doppelgreener

TIL though about an aged-off vote being able to be recast, and about the different age-off rates.

Spevacus

13:06

A couple of notes. This only appends your name in the form of an @ mention at the end of a report, so there's no special additional message. Additionally, it's your responsibility to remain pingable in this room for it to work properly. Lastly, if you ever wish to remove yourself from the notification list in this room, simply run !!/unnotify 11 rpg.stackexchange.com

Someone_Evil

@NautArch I appreciate the concern, and I certainly thought about that. But I'd rather not revert a bounty just because someone might want to vote to close it. I'll happily reconsider that stance if we see a reason to close it: I don't at the moment, but will be keeping an eye on it

NautArch

@Someone_Evil The only way we know if someone votes to close. Which they can't. Otherwise we're left with them needing to comment, which many don't.

doppelgreener

I think @Someone_Evil made a good outline that there's no actual pending requests for change to the question. I figure if there's a serious enough problem that warrants closing it, someone can/will open a meta.

NautArch

But the list of things requested has been removed in the comment cleanup, so you kind of made that self-fulfilling.

Not each comment was addressed.

But the idea of "5 votes to close, 5 votes to open, contentious, bounty stops, okay let's let it stop" doesn't seem like a process we want to have.

Although I don't think the question is particularly useful or the answer, so I also don't have much skin left in that game.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch Is there something remaining outstanding? I'll read through again, but I didn't think there was

NautArch

13:12

@Someone_Evil I'm pretty sure there were, but with the comments gone, it's impossible to tel now.

I'm just waiting for the wild magic surge build to show up.

Medix2

I asked if we could guarantee dice rolls, twice XD

Infinite damage Wild Magic Surge is an option though, yeah

NautArch

Yep, and that's the top answer. again.

Thankfully magic items are off to remove the moonblade.

Someone_Evil

It should be fine to leave explaining how specific magic surge rolls fit into "averaged out" damage, no?

NautArch

But either way, allowing the Bounty to lock the question open when there is clearly a community process that may not be finished seems to be the suboptimal method here.

It's less about concerns around this question and more about concerns around doing that.

G. Moylan

do we ahve any Qs here analyzing the mathematical differences between spell slots and the spell points optional rule?

Medix2

13:17

@G.Moylan I made a great big chart once... somewhere...

NautArch

32

Q: How does the Variant: Spell Points system from the DMG affect game balance?

On page 288-289 of the DMG, there is a "Variant: Spell Points" rule. Below are the best summary paragraphs of the system: In this variant, each spell has a point cost based on its level. The Spell Point Cost table summarizes the cost in spell points of slots from 1st to 9th level. Cantrips don't...

dnd-5e balance optional-rules spell-slots spellcasting

G. Moylan

@NautArch nice link, thanks

Thomas Markov

@NautArch The comments are preserved in my meta answer

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov all the latest? I mean, I can go through and check and see if anything is missing, but I also really think this is no longer a great question and I'm not interested in pursuing closing it.

But other community members may be, and the bounty is preventing them from moderating.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch I dont think I got all of them, but the meaty ones are here

G. Moylan

13:27

What Q is this?

ah I see

NautArch

ANd it's not like the question didn't have attention. Two meta questions and a lot of edits make it high up on active and noticed list.

My point is really just that the bounty is doing a disservice and tells others that they can do the same in the future.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch This. The question even had users stating they were ready to answer in the comments while it was still closed.

The bounty is serving no purpose.

(Except to prevent close voting)

Someone_Evil

@NautArch I'm not sure long close reopen series is a particularly functional community process. Especially if words wouldn't be voiced. And given the volume of votes, edits, and discussion, it'd be hard to draw precedence from that

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov I also really don't love the "I've got an answer, so please open." as a reason to open.

@Someone_Evil Close/Reopen IS our process. The bounty puts a hard stop on it.

Even when new users post a question, get it downvoted, delete it and then reask it, we force reopening/undeletion/duplication.

Someone_Evil

@NautArch Huh, it actually has a lot of views for never having been on the HNQ and I guess that makes sense

NautArch

13:32

Honestly, I see no good reason why the bounty needs to be there and one bad reason.

G. Moylan

@NautArch I agree. If OP wants more answers, leave the Q up and don't accept

Trish

@Someone_Evil on that topic, I understand that about half the downvotes seem to be indicating that they would have preferred ongoing fixing of the question, but the bounty prevents that.

@NautArch Agreed, 2nd worst reopen reason after "Improperly closed by mod"

@Someone_Evil it had a rather active meta, which adds views. But closed questions don't get HNQ status if I understand it right. They can be closed during HNQ, but they don't get it when they are closed.

Someone_Evil

@Trish I wouldn't be so sure of that, there's a lot of dislike simply for this type of question (especially the "just most damage")

doppelgreener

At this stage it might be most helpful that if there seems to be a concrete reason to close the question, we open a meta about it. I would advise not doing that just because someone might want to vote to close, because ... if nobody actually wants it closed, we don't need to lift a finger. If we do, that's reason enough for a meta.

Someone_Evil

@Trish Being closed prevents it from being on the HNQ, it will be taken off while closed

Trish

13:45

On the topic f the question... it has gone a long way since inception, and it went from "3 million variants" to "some dozen or such" to test. It's clearly no longer lacking focus like before. But I don't think it is a good question yet. Like, it pits a healer and a combat mage and a rogue that might use a poisoned flaming ballista to backstab

NautArch

@doppelgreener This is assuming that people take those issues to meta - which the vast majority don't. We've taken away the one tool they have for pointless bounty that circumvents the process that was happening. But again, I think the question isn't really helpful to OP, but that's neither here nor there now.

Trish

actually... do 5E rules finally put an end to backstabbing someone with a ballista

NautArch

@Trish There is no backstab in 5e.

Thomas Markov

@Trish Im not aware that that is possible, so I guess

NautArch

Or facing (without a variant rule)

Trish

13:46

So, by simply removing backstab, yay, no more "you splatter hank all over the room"

Thomas Markov

Rogues cannot get sneak attack with ballistae, if thats what youre asking.

NautArch

23

Q: Can Siege Weapons trigger Sneak Attack and other weapon-based class features?

The criteria for a Rogue's Sneak Attack is The Attack must use a Finesse or a ranged weapon. The criteria for an Eldritch Knight's soulbound weapon is Over the course of 1 hour short rest, you can bond a weapon to you. The criteria for the Archery fighting style is simply You gai...

dnd-5e weapons class-feature sneak-attack

Trish

@ThomasMarkov Backstab was a "triple damage from behind" thing. not sneak attack.

kviiri

@Trish There's no facing rules in DnD 5e, can't recall if even optional ones

Thomas Markov

@kviiri Theres a variant in the dmg.

I tried it once

Its terrible.

Trish

13:52

and apparently, all siege weapons are in the DMG, so not allowed to the answer of the question. 5 ballistae go 82.5 average damage pre modifications to ammo, 5 cannons are 220 damage average... but the cannon-troop clearly is superior to a mage :P

kviiri

@ThomasMarkov Ah, m'kay. So... I suppose that one doesn't give triple damage either?

Trish

(also, possibly cheaper than training a mage for some decades to learn that fireball spell)

NautArch

Yeah, some of the constraints they put on that question were odd.

Thomas Markov

@kviiri Just advantage.

> This means an attacker in the creature’s rear arc makes attack rolls against it with advantage.

If you use a shield, you have 2 armor classes

> Shields apply their bonus to AC only against attacks from the front arc or the same side arc as the shield. For example, a fighter with a shield on the left arm can use it only against attacks from the front and left arcs.

NautArch

I've been considering stopping use of the optional flanking rule. It makes advantage super easy to get.

Trish

13:54

@ThomasMarkov advantage does not alter the damage output if we need to assume all attacks are hits anyway...

NautArch

@Trish But it does increase crit chance, which increases damage output.

Trish

@NautArch THAT is worth looking at, yes.

kviiri

@NautArch I did the same in our table, I found out it creates too many of these, erm... conga lines, as they're often called.

NautArch

On the flipside, advantage makes fun things happen.

kviiri

The ruleset also encourages concentrated damage output in most cases to begin with

G. Moylan

14:02

Most of these variant rules are also not in the PHB, so they wouldn't be applicable to the Q anyway

NautArch

I still think the constraints they picked are...odd. No summoning/animation? Why not?

Only PHB? Is the table only PHB? If not, how is that constraint helpful?

I think the rush to reopen may have created a question that isn't relevant to OP (but only they can tell us that!)

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Yeah, one comment in particular genuinely got me a bit baffled and upset :(

bobble

@doppelgreener to my memory I've re-cast an aged-off vote twice, both times on Lit.

Medix2

@NautArch I believe the PHB constraint came from a comment saying that allowing every book was too much. Meanwhile we have numerous optimization questions with no such restriction that do perfectly fine

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov yep, it is terrible.

NautArch

14:16

@Medix2 Exactly, they've chosen constraints that may not accurately reflect their actual needs in the hope of making this stackable.

Rather than working on understanding why the constraints are needed and which ones.

Medix2

I don't think they have actual needs. They said themself that the campaign ended

NautArch

Which makes these harder to figure out the constraints.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 I think they just wanted some forum-style theorycrafting and shoehorned the idea into a stackable question.

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 which q is this?

Thomas Markov

3

Q: What class has the most damage output per round at level 6?

I used to DM a group of players who liked to heavily optimize their characters (and the group as a whole) to take as little and deal as much damage as possible (seriously, these guys were crazy). It got to the point that I was routinely throwing encounters at them that would be considered "deadly"...

dnd-5e optimization damage

Medix2

14:18

I believe it's a curiosity question of optimization. And given the extreme variety of sources used in many of the answers by ThomasMarkov and David Coffron, I cannot myself believing that limiting to the PHB actually meaningfully changes whether it should be closed or not

But there were comments saying it was too complex including all sources, and even a comment that likely discouraged the OP by saying their question was just another iteration of a question type that we have dismayingly many of

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 David Coffron is the major player in optimization questions

I only have 12 answers in the tag

Medix2

Yes, but you both pull from a wide array of sources XD

NautArch

@Medix2 yeah, was not a fan of that comment.

Medix2

@NautArch I thought about opening some sort of Meta and realized it would either be a dupe of whether we embrace a plurality of playstyles or would just result in being told that individual users can say what they want. Shruggie

NautArch

@Medix2 Yeah :( I mean, i think I'd like to see some sort of guide to asking these. Understanding why and what some constraints are might be helpful.

Thomas Markov

14:24

@NautArch I dont know that theyre really a great fit tbh.

Lots of these questions arent solving table problems, theyre just fishing for trivia.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov They're not easy. I think they can fit, but not easy.

Thomas Markov

The best questions of this type are the first kind mentioned in my meta answer

> A mostly complete character build, where the stack is asked to optimize a few remaining build choices for a particularly outcome

Medix2

I definitely don't think questions need to solve actual table problems tbqh

NautArch

We do much better when they do, but it's not at all required.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Neither do I, just those questions are generally a better fit for how we do things.

NautArch

14:26

Because it's hard to understand the issue to solve for when there is no issue to solve for.

Medix2

"What are all the ways I can do X" will definitely result in options that can't be taken and history of gaming doesn't really solve any table problem, I think?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 I think history of gaming is an entirely different species of question.

Medix2

But yeah, optimization is a difficult type of question to ask, and they definitely draw in downvotes and dislike from some users just on principle of being optimization questions

RevanantBacon

@Medix2 Some people feel like optimization is badwrongfun

Medix2

Yeah, and there's really nothing to be done about it :(

@ThomasMarkov Yeah that's completely fair

Trying to figure out if this question is opinion based since I could see two answers and not really know how to tell which is better

But apparently that idea of opinion based is inaccurate and dangerous? Actually, if anybody knows what that comment was supposed to mean, I'd be glad to know

MikeQ

14:34

@NautArch It's funny, many of the complaints I hear about flanking in 5e seem to be missing the point. The rule is supposed to make advantage easier. It encourages more tactical playstyles and rewards players for cooperation.

Medix2

@MikeQ For me, at tables that have used it, it just became a mindless thing to always do. There was almost no tactics involved because you could almost always just flank

NautArch

@Medix2 I actually think it reduces tactical thought. One option will always be the best option: flank.

MikeQ

Yes, but then players will need to think about how to flank, and how to position themselves to deny opponents from flanking them. Then the GM can start changing up the battlemaps and enemy configurations for more interesting situations.

NautArch

There is often little difficulty in flanking. It's really hard to create a battlemap where someone can't be on opposite sides of someone else.

MikeQ

Dunno, maybe I've just gotten too used to it, having played Pathfinder 1e for the past however many years. Always try to flank to help allies in melee, even if I can't hit. And try to anticipate the enemies trying to flank, since they might have rogue levels. It means movement needs more consideration and planning, and otherwise-identical enemies may need to be prioritized differently based on their positions.

And even if flanking is the obvious choice, at least it is a choice. In 5e games without flanking, it often seems like my choices have no impact on the effectiveness of attacks. Just make the roll, hope the d20 is good, and that's all I can do.

RevanantBacon

14:43

@Medix2 I'm not 100% sure what part KRyan is referring to, but I do know that I disagree with almost 100% of Trish's answer.

MikeQ

Also, allowing more opportunities for flanking-based advantage means that melee combat can be resolved more quickly, reducing the chances of melee gridlock.

NautArch

@MikeQ I'm not sure my table (@ThomasMarkov?) agrees that combat should be resolved more quickly. We tend to like combat.

RevanantBacon

My guess is that he's referring to this

> A question generally is opinion based, if there could be at least 2 answers that are vastly different in their results and neither is, objectively speaking, better.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Im very pro combat.

NautArch

But mostly I like it because fun stuff triggers off advantage. And we play for fun.

RevanantBacon

14:49

Which I definitely disagree with.

NautArch

Do other stacks have issues with theoretical problems? Looking at our general direction for subjective questions, we do note that the #1 stack rule is "You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face."

doppelgreener

@NautArch well, we run into practical problems while engaging in (and trying to apply) theory

and every stack deals with that

a theoretical problem is just "hey i definitely don't have this problem and never have and never expect to, but someone mgiht, so i'm just wondering..."

NautArch

Yeah, just trying to figure out how to handle the constraint formation process under that guise. The stack has debated the relevance and I think most of us are good on having those questions.

doppelgreener

in the past, we've regularly experienced that questions about theoretical problems just ... don't work. someone goes in and says "hey i'm not clear about this detail, could you be more specific about what's actually happening?" and they admit they can't be more specific because it's not happening, or they say "idk i'm not actually having this problem, maybe it's like this?". then we close it—usually because it needs more details that will never be provided.

if they do work then hey, we got a solid question and solid answers

NautArch

Relevant by luck is still relevant :)

@Medix2 The hyperbole was a bit much for me there.

Thomas Markov

14:59

self answer questions seem to be a toss up too

NautArch

Nah, discovering a problem and solving it is helpful. Discovering a simple mistake and solving it is not.

Although I guess defining 'simple mistake' is pretty complex.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch I have an idea for a self answer several times a week, but I rarely post them.

NautArch

I've only done it a few times (i think?)

Thomas Markov

All time scores on self answered questions seems pretty okay actually.

Average Q score is 11, A score is 7.7

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Higher than I though it would be. They seem to mostly be poorly received

NautArch

15:11

→ 10 messages moved to Here There Be Dragons

Trish

uh... sorry!

Cat of doom2

this will be my last message!!

RevanantBacon

@NautArch You grabbed an unrelated comment in there :p

Cat of doom2

thank you for all the amazing memories. I hope to see you again someday!

thank you everyone

RevanantBacon

@Catofdoom2 Oh, do you have to give the laptop back today? :(

Cat of doom2

15:13

goodbye my friends

Someone_Evil

@Catofdoom2 I hope so too :)

Cat of doom2

@RevanantBacon i do

bye bye

kviiri

Bye o/

RevanantBacon

@Catofdoom2 OOF, maybe you can convince your parents to get you a tablet or something to see us again

\o

kviiri

I got vaguely youtube.com/watch?v=DPEvF8l9LDM vibes from this

NautArch

15:15

← 1 message moved from Here There Be Dragons

@RevanantBacon whoopsiedoozles!

RevanantBacon

@NautArch :p

G. Moylan

lots of comment cleanup needed on the A to the Damage output Q

KorvinStarmast

15:30

I think that this is a very good question

Trish

@KorvinStarmast a tricky one... where I actually would want to know more about the group...

KorvinStarmast

@Trish The problem of players with variable experience levels is a common one, and this thing isn't an uncommon result. Seen it in card games, board games, and in RPGs.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast I know, but to find a best solution I would love to know more. Nt because the question is bad or lacking.

KorvinStarmast

@Trish How it's handled can be tricky, as you say, and the already existing social relationships will inform how to address the overly helpful player. I disagree that there is a best solution.

Trish

15:55

@KorvinStarmast I mean, there is no one shoe fits all solution. There might however be a solution that is the best, but that would be informed by things that OP does not tell (and shouldn't because of privacy.

KorvinStarmast

@Trish Ah, a best fit 'for their group' - yeah, good point. Could be.

Trish

@KorvinStarmast yes. Though it's a Good/bad subjective and Back it up! thing anyway.

Hot RPG Questions

17:06

4

Q: Jumping from a height

Are there any rules (or JC tweets) about how jumping from a height works? I know about the rules for, e.g. long Jump, but those assume that the thing I'm jumping to is on the same level as me. Suppose I'm starting from a 60ft high wall, and I want to jump into the pond that's X feet away from the...

dnd-5e falling

Trish

17:41

uh... I feel like I am looking in the wrong spot: Are there rules for the HP of castle walls in Dnd 5e anywhere in the DMG?

Thomas Markov

@Trish i think so, let me check

Trish

huh... the wall is a spell... is there at tag for actual walls and fortifications? it's not fortification or similar...

NautArch

object hit points, but not castle walls yet...

dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#Objects

Plus damage thresholds for castle walls (scrolling down a bit further)

@Trish objects? although not really.

Trish

@NautArch Yea.... we could need a buildings thing? there are several Shadowrun questions about breaching building walls...

@NautArch do you have a book page? that link doesn't work externally

NautArch

I'd start with how other questions classed it. We can make a new tag, but if we don't need to, we shouldn't(?)

@Trish 246, i think

Thomas Markov

17:47

246

NautArch

@Trish Kinda related: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/166826

Trish

huh... ok, using those rules... a stone wall has AC 17 and 27 HP per 10 foot by 10 foot area? That... seems like an order of magnitude too low. I mean, a cannon does 44 average damage. it would destroy 10 feet incremetns of wall... hm.....

Thomas Markov

@Trish A Tenser's transformation bard with Sharpshooter could knock down a stone wall with a crossbow. Nice.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov That's the numbers in the book, yes... like... sounds off

NautArch

@Trish I don't think you're reading that right.

27hp is for 10x10ft window

so a very thin 10x10 section of stone.

Most walls aint gonna be that thin, if you want to get another look, you can check out wall of stone: dndbeyond.com/spells/wall-of-stone

Trish

17:54

27 is a "resiliant" 10x10 item

large is 10x10

NautArch

@Trish it's a resilient 10x`10 window

or a cart

Trish

It just says Object Size: Large. And for Huge and more: "Divide into LArge Zones"

NautArch

@Trish Large (cart, 10-ft.-by-10-ft. window)

Trish

yes. that's the examples.

NautArch

two examples

Trish

17:57

I think 27 fits for... a wall made from wicker.

NautArch

a cart and a 10x10 ft. window

Someone_Evil

Those guidelines are pretty loose, and I'm pretty sure the only cover for castle walls etc. is to include a damage threshhold? But you have plenty space to up the HP of specific objects as appropriate

NautArch

And wall of stone gives on some guidance on thickness and HP.

Trish

the window is clearly the fragile one. And yes, the castle walls are only down in the damage threshold..

Someone_Evil

Is there a particular need castle wall HP for?

NautArch

18:00

Wall of stone has a 10x10x6 panel. It's got an AC of 15 and HP equivalent to 30 per inch of thickness.

Trish

@Someone_Evil comparing something... I have values for how much castle walls don't budge in TDE and was wondering how D&D 5e models them.

NautArch

So the wallof stone panel naturally is 10x10x6, AC 15, 180hp.

A castle wall will have an AC of 17 plus a damage threshold. You can likely use the same thickness calculation for HP.

Someone_Evil

5e treats objects as GM technique more than rules as far as I see (for better or worse)

NautArch

Very much so - and I think some individual adventures have additional rules specific to them.

D&D treats a lot up to GM technique - it's why the expertise is really necessary for answers.

Carcer

yeah, 5e doesn't model that kind of thing much

Avernus uses damage thresholds quite a lot because it's got the vehicles

Trish

18:02

@NautArch THAT is a number that sounds much more reasonable. My first hunch was to go for 270 hp per 10 foot piece of wall, and have half that making it inaccessible to people and 0 is a "breach". Damage threshold... uh... 30-ish and immunity to piercing damage.?

Carcer

but they come up rarely otherwise

NautArch

@Trish I dunno, I havent really had to model it, so I don't know what I'd do.

Carcer

a pick would do piercing damage. I don't think a wall should be immune to that

Someone_Evil

@Trish Why piercing rather than slashing? I'd rather have a pick than a sword to take down a wall

Thomas Markov

Walls would typically be immune to psychic damage.

NautArch

18:03

and a 30 damage threshold is a big deal. THat's a lot of damage. Is this for 5e @Trish? I'm not sure what you're trying to do here.

Trish

@Someone_Evil oh, right. Both should be.

Thomas Markov

Yeah 30 is kind of a lot.

Trish

@NautArch 30 is a lot, but castle walls shouldn't budge to anything but a lot.

NautArch

@Trish I agree with @Carcer about piercing. That's clearly a way to break down a wall, too.

@Trish What are you using this for/trying to do?

Carcer

3e had somewhat more general rules for figuring out how tough objects are and the values it comes up with probably work okay in 5e

d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm

Trish

18:05

leme look up the part I really need.

Carcer

e.g. in 3e a stone wall would have hardness 8 (basically damage reduction) and 15hp/inch of thickness

NautArch

@Trish Before we keep going down the road of trying to find what you need, can you please tell us what you're trying to do. This is starting to feel like an x-y problem :)

Thomas Markov

ayy today is the anniversary of my main site active streak

The last time I didnt visit main at least once during a day was may 24, 2020

Carcer

@NautArch it sounds like curiosity. They have a system which does model a specific thing, and wondering how you adjudicate the same thing in 5e

NautArch

@Carcer ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Thomas Markov

18:08

is there a SEDE query for seeing active streaks on the site?

Trish

Ok, let me try to paint the picture where I come from: TDE models walls in 10 meter increments. That's about 11 yards. A wall has 100 structural points, reduces any damage incoming by 10 points and has a constitution of 18 (which in TDE determines when something does give wounds). However, weapons not designed to attack walls (arrows, swords) do automatically do no damage due to it being a structure. Sounds sensible in a system where 2d6 is one of the best weapons you can safely wield.

(doesn't include siege weapons)

Thomas Markov

Yeah, 5e just doesnt really handle this in great detail, despite having monsters with features that deal extra damage to objects.

Trish

The typical siege weapon starts at about 10 damage for a roman ballista. Catapults do on average 27 or 42 damage (pre reduction), and a large trebuchet does 73 damage average (agan, pre reduction).

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov double confusion damage

Would it be answering comments to provide the page # with the CR calculation info in th DMG?

Trish

that puts the expected time to breach a typical castle wall at 2 hits on the same piece of wall. Now, I wanted to look up how D&D handles that scenario... I found the siege weapons (~44 damage average).

RevanantBacon

18:18

@NautArch gotta do a double \\ to get it to display properly

NautArch

@RevanantBacon grrrr

RevanantBacon

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

NautArch

ha!

RevanantBacon

IDK why, something to do with markdown I think

Trish

\ alone is an indicator that you put in a special command character next. \$ for math for examle.

kviiri

18:24

Yeah in computing the backslash is often used as an "escape character" to make syntactically important characters display as-is instead of being interpreted according to their usual role. Including itself.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

18:49

Meanwhile Microsoft: 'Let's use the escape character as a path separator!' ^_^

Trish

OHHHH! Found the solution...

G. Moylan

Do we ever do compendium or directory-style QAs here? Where the answer is a compiled list of other QAs?

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan @Medix2 does :P

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