TRPG General Chat

linksassin

12:01 AM

Good morning all. How is everyone?

Adeptus

linksassin

@Adeptus Well I suppose it could be worse

Adeptus

@linksassin Definitely

Bardic Wizard

@linksassin humans are jerks

Adeptus

@BardicWizard Humans are the worst. Also, the best. (Usually different humans.)

3

linksassin

12:16 AM

So my pathfinder session on Saturday was possibly the best session I've ever run and it didn't even have combat. My players are in the feywild so I've having a lot of fun with the random and weird fey creatures playing pranks and games on them.

BESW

Ben Scerri wrote a twitter thread about racial stereotypes in roleplaying games.

linksassin

@BardicWizard Sorry to hear that.

BESW

j.n. butler shared art on twitter of An original monster created for the #MonsterCareSquad TTRPG by @SandyPugGames.

linksassin

My party ended up playing hide and seek with a group of brownies so I had to improvise some Hide and Seek rules on the fly.

BESW

Allen Turner wrote that Worldbuilding is a radical act.

Sandy Pug Games wrote a twitter thread of thoughts on the popularity of dystopias.

Journey Home by Adam Baffoni. A solo RPG about adventuring across an unfamiliar world, trying to find your way home, and keeping a journal of your travels

"Game the System: Tabletop Games for Your Favorite Science Fiction Book" by Linda H. Codega for tor.com

David Dalglish shared on twitter his greatest trick I ever learned for finishing a novel at a decent rate. It's a good tip for TRPG pacing, too.

J.R. Zambrano wrote a twitter thread about how to make your #ttrpg campaign map matter.

Ajey Pandey wrote a #TabletopChopShop twitter thread about how Bolt is special because it’s the result of someone surrounded by high-concept experimental RPG designers making a game with detailed rules for killing people.

Viditya Voleti released two new projects!

A Land Once Magic by Viditya Voleti is a Post-Fantasy worldbuilding game to help create unique worlds based around deconstructing and evolving fantasy tropes and creating unique magic systems that are built from the ground up. Using only random tables and a deck of cards you'll be able to create a wholly original post-fantasy world!

We Who Seek Titans by Viditya Voleti is a record-keeping, worldbuilding, and map making game for 1+ players. Go on a journey as you bask in the glory of the nature, local culture, and the finding answers in history and the land.

Adam Hancock wrote a twitter thread challenging the standard way a TTRPG team is hired and managed.

(That last one is super important, I think, in a lot of different professions: I often see major problems arise from the unquestioned assumption that the person who initiates a project has to be in charge of it, or that management roles must only come out of certain development roles.)

AnpuLondon made an educational resource for respecting ethnic names (twitter link).

Kazumi Chin initiated a twitter thread soliciting answers to the question What academic texts (non-gaming related) would you want to share with folks interested in creating better games and do better worldbuilding?

Hot RPG Questions

12:39 AM

3

Q: Does 'Clone' (spell) Work On A Flesh Golem?

Does Clone work on a Flesh golem? Points of possible interest: golem is the right size clone doesn't seem to 'change their shape' does the golem 'die'? does it live? Seems like a pretty straightforward question, am I missing something?

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast Thanks friend.

BESW

Roxanne Sparks wrote a twitter thread sharing the art that I made for #SinaUna.

Kazumi Chin wrote a twitter thread about being a better TTRPG player.

Bardic Wizard

@Adeptus indeed. I was phonebanking (for the local school board election) and people get really angry when you call them and start with “Hi, I’m volunteering with [canidate] for the [county] county school board...”. I got past that line less than 10% of the time

nitsua60

@linksassin That made a lot more sense when I remembered that there are small, winged, fey creatures called "brownies."

linksassin

@nitsua60 Not winged but yes. Small fey creatures, not midnight snack.

BESW

12:54 AM

Having recently read A Wizard's Guide to Defensive Baking... why not both?

Shalvenay

hey there @linksassin -- and yes, that sounds like a good time XD

@BESW because then you find yourself up against a pie golem

and pie golems are NOT good eats!

linksassin

@BESW That book would find itself very welcome in my setting. The background tension is that wizard did horrible things to magical creatures in the early stages of magical research.

BESW

@linksassin It's a very good book! It's funny and horrific and has some Very Important Things To Say about heroes.

V2Blast

@Shalvenay ...now I want pie

MikeQ

Pie golem is one of the options for a higher-level casting of Animate Bread

user15026

1:07 AM

@BESW plus there's Bob the sourdough starter

BESW

@Ash [grin] Like I said, it's funny and horrific!

user15026

@BESW I really love this, and have a few people whose foreheads I want to tape it to

user15026

@BESW And Bob is totes both

BESW

I didn't get the "eldritch horror" energy some reviewers got from Bob, I'm guessing that's just the "tentacles make us think of L*vecraft" problem.

I think being eldritch would've made Bob less scary, really.

user15026

Yeah, I liked Bob and he unnerved me because like...sourdough, man, is scary magic

Bardic Wizard

1:14 AM

Bread!!

user15026

Bread is magic

Bardic Wizard

@Ash my little baker: bread is magic

Ben

Morning all

I'd like to reinforce my previous opinion about this group being supportive and productive. Again, I'm not implying that it's exclusive to this group, but I have found this group to be very welcoming and understanding.

2

BESW

1:32 AM

[wave] How you doing?

Ben

Over the weekend I've still received more input and advice about my recent issue of time management and stress, etc., so it says a lot about the group that there are so many that are willing to help :D

@BESW Since Friday, better.

How are you going?

BESW

Been worse, I think. Kiiinda wishing I had a counselor, so I feel you.

Ben

No good :(

V2Blast

<3

trogdor

@BESW I'm not a counselor but is there anything I can do?

Ben

1:43 AM

@BESW As I'm sure is the case, you may have more preferable options of help, but I'm always open to chats when needed. Distraction or otherwise :)

BESW

Thanks to both of you. I don't really know what I need, that's part of the counselor thing. It took me years to get up the gumption to go looking for one, which I did about a year ago, and neither of the ones I tried were very good at listening to me, and then Current Events made it hard enough to keep trying new people that I've stopped.

trogdor

yeah I,... have been to like 5 different people myself

I don't want to say involuntarily because I wasn't like, dragged kicking and screaming and I participated

BESW

They kept trying to make everything be about my caregiver relationship with my dad and that was so frustrating because the things I wanted to talk about pre-date that part of my life.

trogdor

but it was all for like diagnosis and confirmation of diagnosis and really it left me with a lack of,... relish for going to a professional of that type

@BESW I can sort of understand that, everything I have ever talked to anyone of that stripe about is about Autism

which,... I mean I feel very complicated about that because if more people actually wanted to talk about what that means and listen and implement what they learn from it that would be great

but at the same time I don't like that being the all encompassing picture of who I am as a person either

Hot RPG Questions

1

Q: Can Warforged be Targeted by the Clone Spell?

The Clone spell's Components include (PHB p.222): … at least one cubic inch of flesh of the creature that is being cloned, … and Warforged do not have flesh, the same as other Humanoids do (ERftLW p. 35): Warforged are made from wood and metal, … Root like cords infused with alchemical flui...

dnd-5e spells targeting spell-components eberron

6

Q: What to do when I'm forced to make battle decisions by other players?

I've been playing a campaign in which there have been a few instances in battles where I feel like I'm being forced to make some non-optimal moves in battle by the rest of the PC group. For example me being coerced into "tanking" in a narrow hallway, when I would've rather drawn the group of enem...

dnd-5e tactics player-communication

Ben

2:05 AM

@BESW I completely understand that frustration. It took me a few tries as well to find someone that was actually helpful. One was all about "ignore it all and just try to relax", another was "just read all this stuff".... It wasn't that they weren't trying to help, it's just that they weren't able to. The one I go to now is really good, so I'm glad I stuck with it until I was able to find the right fit

And yeah, sometimes they fixate on a particular aspect of things, and while yes, on the outside it seems like a "problem", they don't try to dig deeper, or let you try. Which yeah, is really annoying.

BESW

I think both the ones I tried, had been given some variant of the advice "whatever the person talks about most, is what they need to talk about," and that's just not true for me. I talk about the stuff I've already worried until it's polished, because I already have the words for it.

And I tried to tell them that, but they couldn't really help.

Ben

Can I ask, how do you feel about if someone tried to find words for you? Not put words in your mouth, just try suggest things?

I do that a lot when I talk to people, and I personally hate it in retrospect because I feel like I'm impressing upon people haha

MikeQ

Sometimes people just ~~want~~ need to be heard, and don't need to hear suggestions or advice.

3

BESW

It really depends on the context, and the person.

Ben

Yes. very very true

It's a bad habit I have. I'm not exactly sure where it came from, but it started before I had my own issues, so it took me a while to come around to that.

BESW

2:13 AM

One of my counselors didn't do it at all and I mostly thought that was good. The other, ah, he tried but it didn't work out well. He thought my "how do I respond to the thing you said without laughing like a seal on nitrous oxide" silence was dumbfounded astonishment at how deep his ideas were.

Ben

I have broken the habit, but I still need to be mindful.

@BESW Reading people is very hard sometimes lol

BESW

(Mashing together transcendentalism and the Tao is not a great look at the best of times, and I understand both of them better than he does.)

I think he was used to working with people who haven't consciously worked for a well-defined ethical/moral epistemology, so it didn't really occur to him to ask if I already had a framework for processing struggle.

Ben

@BESW Sometimes you have to take the reigns

nitsua60

2:55 AM

8d8

Dice Service

5

6

4

5

7

1

BESW

3:18 AM

role has entered early access.

Bardic Wizard

3:36 AM

Does anyone have any suggestions for immediately available, free, distractions that can be done from a phone with no sound anymore? I’m having a sudden thing that requires me to stay awake and not worry for a few hours (a family member’s going to the ER for a thing that will probably be fine but is stressful and I’m about to be the only one still awake since someone has to be able to get texts from the ER contingent and I’m the oldest in the house)?

trogdor

how do you do with webcomics?

Bardic Wizard

Love them

trogdor

as long as you have like wifi available or something so you aren't burning phone minutes, Gunnerkrigg Court

it's pretty long, I don't know if it will take all the hours you need but depending how fast you read it might take 1 or 2

at least

I think it's a pretty neat one anyway

Bardic Wizard

I read fast. I have WiFi but my siblings are asleep and our house carries sound extremely well

trogdor

mk

I will give the content warning that it has some amount of dealing with loss, including the main character and her father dealing (in very different ways) with how her mother died

but as long as that is ok it shouldn't be an issue

probably

XD

also the art starts out a little strange, a lot of sharp lines, but it's interesting how it progresses and improves over the course of the story so far

(and I don't think it starts bad but it might look a little weird)

nitsua60

3:47 AM

I'll second Gunnerkrigg. I'll also second hanging out and chatting with Troggy and BESW. I've done that in hospitals with immediate family a few times....

BESW

@BardicWizard Online comics:

Skin Horse is a massive (and as yet incomplete) speculative fiction strip-a-day story about black ops social workers who support the non-human creations of mad scientists.

Digger is an epic graphic novel about a very practical wombat who gets stuck in a very impractical foreign land.

Tea Dragon Society is a short graphic novel about a young girl learning how to raise cat-sized dragons that grow tea leaves from their horns.

user15026

@BESW oooh yes this

user15026

@BESW I still need to read this. Soooomeday.

user15026

@BESW Sooooooooome day. (Although more far away someday than Tea Dragon because omg shipping)

MikeQ

Sep 23 at 0:21, by BESW

@BardicWizard May I also suggest Darths & Droids.

Bardic Wizard

3:51 AM

@MikeQ read it a couple times through

The rest I haven’t heard of before

trogdor

@BESW oooh yes Tea Dragon is very good

Bardic Wizard

Thanks

trogdor

double triple reccomend that

it's kinda short though

XD

but it's excellent

skin Horse is good too

also it's kinda long? it might even be longer than Gunnerkrigg but I am not sure on that

Adeptus

4:37 AM

Girl Genius? I was up-to-date with them once... some years ago...

Ditto with Freefall (there's also a binge reader)

BESW

I appreciate GG's energy, but it kept edging into uncomfortable subjects and portrayals.

Adeptus

On a completely different topic... I've started playing Watchdogs. The player character has some mixed morals - he steals cars & hacks bank accounts, but is also a vigilante who'll beat up someone for stealing a wallet...

BESW

That reminds me of a line from Jadzia Axelrod, "Superhero stories are power fantasies. [...] It's worth examining whose power fantasy we're telling when we're telling these stories."

Bardic Wizard

5:34 AM

Welp still no definite news, but I’m doing ok.

On the bright side I sewed like 4 face masks to keep my hands and the sewing machine busy

BESW

I'm glad you're hanging in!

Harrison Smith

5:55 AM

Hello! Long time lurker first time chatter, just checking out chat :)

Bardic Wizard

@HarrisonSmith chat’s a pretty cool place; have fun here!

trogdor

hello

BESW

[wave] Welcome! Glad to have you. Feel free to lurk or participate as you like.

Harrison Smith

Thanks all!

BESW

We're a bit quiet right now, the weekend lull hasn't quite ended yet.

Hmm. role has a "Safety Guide" placard that recommends the X card, O card, and Stars and Wishes, and then links to the TTRPG Safety Toolkit.

I wonder how they chose those three.

I probably would've recommended at least a pre-game calibration option?

Ben

6:21 AM

I bring greetings from the future. Monday has arrived, coffee still exists, and the world is still here.

trogdor

6:32 AM

lol

you're late

XD

Hot RPG Questions

6:55 AM

10

Q: What high-end fantasy fabrics and textiles exist in the Forgotten Realms?

Dungeons and Dragons has defined many fantastic and interesting metals (mythril, adamantine...) and leathers (dragon scales, Leather golem armour...). The lore also likes to call out food and drink as local specialty trade goods (Knucklehead Trout in Icewind Dale, or Crumblecake in Red Larch). It...

dungeons-and-dragons lore forgotten-realms

V2Blast

7:28 AM

@Ben dang

@Adeptus Is being up to date on a webcomic really ever possible? :P

kviiri

@BardicWizard I'm personally quite fond of the webcomic Stand Still, Stay Silent which is also great inspirational reading for TRPGs due to having a somewhat unusual setting and tone. sssscomic.com

It's a post-apocalyptic comic about the aftermath of a disease that wipes out most of humanity and leaves behind a beast-ridden wilderness in what used to be thriving cities and towns. The Nordic nations have survived, and are slowly trying to reclaim space to live in safely

Also, ancient magic has awaken, so there's a lot of elements borrowed from Norse and Finnish mythology

It's delightfully free of the Mad Max stuff where people start to act all bloodthirsty just because the world has ended. The characters of the comic are normal, well-behaved (mostly) and well-meaning people who just try to find books.

Carcer

8:02 AM

there's a cat

A+ would read again

kviiri

A+ did read again

There's also a sauna! (for like, two panels so far)

trogdor

8:42 AM

@V2Blast yes, although I have to cheat XD

AncientSwordRage

9:02 AM

@Ben that's a relief

AncientSwordRage

9:39 AM

@kviiri saw that mentioned in a recent OSP vid

\oo//

yo DG

kviiri

9:56 AM

@AncientSwordRage What's OSP?

AncientSwordRage

Overly Sarcastic Productions

it's a youtube channel

kviiri

Apart from the timeless Metal Gear classic term On-Site Procurement

AncientSwordRage

::shrug::, I've not played Metal Gear

kviiri

10:10 AM

"OSP" is one of the few fancy military buzzwords the series has used and loved

It means basically "you're responsible for finding your own gear on the mission site" because secrecy, ostensibly.

AncientSwordRage

10:22 AM

@kviiri oh cool

kviiri

10:38 AM

I used to be kinda into Metal Gear but it's a... well. Flawed series in so many ways

many of those ways are very entertaining tho

doppelgreener

11:50 AM

o/

KorvinStarmast

@HarrisonSmith Greetings

Thomas Markov

12:03 PM

Hey y'all

KorvinStarmast

o/

\o/ goal goal goal goal goal goal!

AncientSwordRage

12:27 PM

The gang's here

NautArch

1:16 PM

howdy howdy

Thomas Markov

I KNEW I WASNT CRAZY

rpg.stackexchange.com/q/176370/62294

User deleted and reposted their question after it was closed.

@NautArch Hey buddy.

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov I'm voting to undelete the original and then dupe it

just need one more!

Thomas Markov

1:31 PM

Which one are you proposing gets dupe closed?

NautArch

Honestly, the second one should be closed as a dupe of the first.

then let them edit the original.

But i'm a stickler for no workarounds

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Got yer back, undel cast

Thomas Markov

Just edit the original to the current state of the new one?

NautArch

yeah, i guess so

Thomas Markov

Edits made, voted to reopen.

NautArch

1:47 PM

Apparently, I can't vote to reopen. I already cast a reopen vote on 10/31...

RevenantBacon

2:20 PM

It's good, I cast a reopen vote so it's open now

NautArch

i'm still trying to figure out how future me voted to reopen

Thomas Markov

2:37 PM

Hol up.

10/31?

Are you sure it isnt 10/13?

Someone_Evil

I see a reopen vote late on the 12th, so I'd assume that was a typpo

Thomas Markov

I got asked to join the editorial board for a predatory science journal

Someone_Evil

Congrats, I guess?

Bardic Wizard

Is it a journal for predatory science, in which case congratulations, or is it a predatory journal of science?

Thomas Markov

I found it checking my spam folder. It's one of those journals that will publish anything if you give them enough money. In the email that went on and on about my prestigious research accomplishments.

I have zero prestigious research accomplishments.

Bardic Wizard

2:56 PM

Well, that’s not suspicious at all!

Hot RPG Questions

3:29 PM

2

Q: Does Ocular spell make every eligible damage spells have a critical chance since it becomes a ranged touch attack (ray)?

So for some spells that do indeed have targets other than self (and also have a target entry) would Ocular spell make it now possible to score a critical? Ocular spell states: (...)When you release an ocular spell, its effect changes to a ray with a range of up to 60 feet. If the spell previousl...

spells dnd-3.5e metamagic critical-hit touch-attacks

Hot RPG Questions

4:20 PM

5

Q: How powerful can a 20th-level Wizard make a 1st-level Fighter without allowing him to realize it is the Wizard's doing?

A 20th level Wizard makes a bet with another 20th level Wizard - he has to make his grandson succeed on a difficult mission. Without allowing his grandson (a first level Fighter) or his grandson's compatriots (a first level Rogue, Bard, and Druid) to realize that the Wizard is secretly aiding th...

pathfinder-1e optimization

Bardic Wizard

4:42 PM

@HotRPGQuestions I like how the most upvoted answer involves the wizard having no morals whatsoever

GcL

@BardicWizard Ask silly questions; get silly answers.

2

AncientSwordRage

7:05 PM

I don't know enough about hexblade/pact of the blade, but I now have the idea of having something unusual as the blade, like having it been forged out of an angels halo or something similar

GcL

A narratively interesting thing alone? or are you planning some additional mechanic to go along with it?

AncientSwordRage

@GcL nawp

GcL

The pact weapon can be an actual weapon that gets bound so it can do the summon dismiss thing in my recollection. How did the character come to possess the blade?

AncientSwordRage

@GcL So I know on Zendikar angels can give up their halos, but I haven't given it much thought

GcL

Sounds like the beginning of an interesting premise or story point.

What impact does it have on the angel?

AncientSwordRage

7:14 PM

Not entirely sure, part of me thought it would mean they could were bound in some way, but at the same time on Zendikar it seems to have no actual baring at all

GcL

If you could find a way that detail could drive the character or a quest, it would be neat. E.g. giving up the halo bound the angel's essence to the wielder of the sword and that has really bad implications for the angel if the wielder dies or the sword gets captured.

AncientSwordRage

that's a good direction

GcL

That could be a couple of quests. The first to find a lost blade and return it. Essentially a low level, explore and find the location of a tragic end of a wielder. A subsequent quest could be to return a lost blade that was captured by a more powerful character. Lucky for the hexblade, they've got adventuring buddies that would help them accomplish their goals.

Doesn't even have to be an evil character that captured it. Could be one of those tough decisions that could have a lot of solutions. E.g. the npc with the sword is using it for something entirely non-combat related. Manufacturing a really useful thing that only one of these swords can cut. Maybe farm tools that allow farming of rather inhospitable soil.

AncientSwordRage

it could have been given willing then stolen

GcL

Removing the sword from the NPC is essentially making the area fated to return to it's desolate existence as no more tools can be made to farm it. Slowly the village would fade away.

AncientSwordRage

7:20 PM

interesting

GcL

Another could be a local place that bestows the sword to someone when the village comes under attack every so often. Perhaps a conflicting nomadic culture that comes through every once in a while. That could then lead to an investigation of why they come through the area. Perhaps the nomads are avoiding a dangerous region, which didn't used to be dangerous.

I'm a fan of the yak shaving sort of adventures. Originally set out to do A, but you need to do B... and you come to find that C is blocking that... which in turn is complicated by D. Eventually, you get to a situation where you're negotiating fishing rights with a young black dragon.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL I'm stealing that

GcL

You want the solution my group arrived at with that one?

AncientSwordRage

go on

RevenantBacon

@GcL The typical Legend of Zelda trading quest to get the Master Sword +1

GcL

7:26 PM

The leverage they used was that the conflict would draw adventurers. By not lurking in the nearby swamp, and instead the loch, it would do two things the dragon liked. First, deny adventurers the chance to find it's horde. Secondly, increase it's chance of surviving as it would have attacked and eaten the party immediately if it didn't think it was going to be a tough fight.

@RevenantBacon Yeah. Like that.

Also, the villagers could be convinced to throw some precious items into the lake as an offering to their local nature deity.

Oh damn.... I really wish I had that group still. I'd have a subsequent adventure come back and find a plague or something bad that could have been averted by one of the items the villagers cast into the loch as an offering.

GcL

7:41 PM

@AncientSwordRage That's an interesting hook. What would you put that information somewhere the players could discover it, or be given it?

Hot RPG Questions

8:05 PM

8

Q: What is it about damage spells in pathfinder 2e that's considered 'weak'?

I've read repeatedly that casters in PF2e are mostly relegated to support roles, i.e. buffing allies, rather than dealing damage. I know that this was an effort on Paizo's part to deal with the linear fighter/quadratic wizard problem. But I don't fully understand why damage spells are considered ...

spells balance pathfinder-2e

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast I've rolled back the edit you approved.

Rubiksmoose

8:48 PM

@ThomasMarkov why?

Thomas Markov

I explained in a comment, which you can read when the network comes back online lol

Rubiksmoose

I see. FWIW I disagree with the reversion of that edit. The edit wasn't super helpful, but I think rolling it back was unnecessary

On the other hand, re-applying the edit is also probably not worth it.

The question was clearly hypothetical, he/him wasn't wrong by any means but they/them is slightly more inclusive for an open-ended question IMO. Not an edit I would have made myself, but I wouldn't have reverted it.

Thomas Markov

One of the answers had already self-rejected the edit, so keeping the edit on the question would have made for inconsistency between the question and the most upvoted answer.

Which would have made the answerer actually look bad - they/their pronouns on the question and he/him pronouns on the answer. Everyone looks better when its just consistent, so reverting an unnecessary edit seemed better then forcing through an edit that was already reject by the answer owner.

Rubiksmoose

Well I haven't looked too closely at the order of events, but it seems entirely possible that the answerer didn't notice the edit to the question. Anyways, my gist is that I usually don't roll back an edit unless there is good reason to do so. This one is till pretty borderline to me.

But the answer was a good spot. I didn't notice that at first.

Thomas Markov

9:08 PM

I rejected the edit from review on one of the answers and figured I better check the review history. I saw that the question edit was approved and that the answer edit was rejected by the answer author, and had to decide which way of maintaining consistency was best.

I opted to preserve the original wording of the querent and both answerers rather than pushing the edit through on both the answers. This whole explanation is way too long for a comment, so I linked the meta discussion that explains that everything was fine as it was.

doppelgreener

speaking personally as someone who could benefit from not seeing male pronouns all the time: male pronouns sometimes is fine. use of neutral they is also fine. female pronouns sometimes would also be nice though.

3

i've pointedly used female pronouns for otherwise unspecified and theoretical characters and people in my posts to generate some inclusion because i can do that for free

Rubiksmoose

9:20 PM

@ThomasMarkov Yeah that is completely fair.

It is a good point. The answer matching definitely changed that situation a bit. Anyways, I think the best thing would be to keep the post as-is

Ben

9:43 PM

Morning morning

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov cool, I debated approving it.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I've been using they as often as I can because it also seems to just fit when I don't actually know XD

Bardic Wizard

10:01 PM

@doppelgreener same, as someone who, out of necessity IRL, still uses female pronouns, even if I prefer neutral they: it seems to stand out more when somebody uses female pronouns and not male or neutral for an unknown person

kviiri

I very much like using they, largely due to not having gendered pronouns in my native language. I'm not 100% used to stressing peoples' gender every time I speak, or having my gender stressed

(hence why I list myself they/he when asked)

trogdor

10:59 PM

Oh I didn't know you didn't have gendered pronouns in your language, TIL that

Most languages I have tried to study do, in fact some even stress them more than English

Spanish even has gendered pronouns for inanimate objects

Or at least the Spanish I was learning

It's not all the same Spanish XD

In English we do seem to gender ships as female but that seems like an outlier borne from some kind of naval tradition that I don't know the history of

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@trogdor How does one stress it more than English? In my language, Tony Stark speaks in the feminine when in-character, and nobody bats an eye, because unlike Tony Stark, Iron Man is feminine. Same thing when cops yell 'we found her' about Ant-Man for the same reason. But Englishmen seem to get really stressed out about such things.

BESW

@BardicWizard I saw this tweet interaction and thought of our earlier conversation. Also this summary made me laugh.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Meanwhile Spaniards and French seem be as casual and stressless as Slavs. Or at least did when I tried to acquaint myself with the former and studied the latter.

trogdor

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica do you mean English as a language or as people who live in England? Because I just meant it as the language

Unless you were just making a joke XD

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@trogdor Well, first- and single-language Anglophones seem to be more stressy on the matter than Francophones, Slavophones, &c. This is anecdotal of course, but it's a trend I've been observing.

trogdor

11:14 PM

Fair enough

ACuriousMind

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica French and Spanish have grammatical gender, and hence are used to dissonance between the pronoun used and the subject being referred to (e.g. few people think the moon really "is" male or female, but it usually is one of these grammatically in most Romance languages). English does not have grammatical gender, which makes the pronouns used a choice completely decoupled from the rest of the language grammatically, hence a choice you can actually easily make

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@trogdor For example, I've seen photos of aftermaths of vandals specifically targeting ship plaques in the Anglosphere. I have a hard time imagining a Slav or Frenchman so stressed about the matter as to break into a museum and deface monuments just because ships are masculine and boats are feminine while vessels are neuter.

ACuriousMind

In English you can say "my pronouns are <insert pronouns here>" and that is all of the information you need to form correct sentences. In languages with grammatical gender it's much more complicated, hence the speakers of these languages tend not to focus on pronouns when discussing gendered language

Mark Wells

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica As an English-speaker, I can try to tell you what happens in my brain at least: because grammatical gender in English is so limited (only being used for people and sometimes animals), we read it as literally marking the social gender of the noun referent. Iron Man can't have a different grammatical gender from Tony Stark because Tony Stark is the one who has social gender.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I'm not sure whether an outsider's perspective is clueless or insightful, but I don't think 'decoupled' is true. For instance, spiders in english seem to be firmly neuter. Better yet, bees have both identifiable sex and some semblence of social gender . . . but their true genders are still neuter in English as far as I've seen taught.

Mark Wells

11:20 PM

(I mean, also because he's Iron Man. But the same would apply to someone else who had a less gendered name.)

MikeQ

In English, non-mammals are often referred to as neuter by people who don't recognize the animal's biological sex

For example, spider breeders would refer to their spiders as male or female, any only use neuter if it's unknown

Mark Wells

I've also seen bees occasionally labeled as feminine, but never as masculine.

ACuriousMind

E.g. in German (my native language) the focus lies usually on the singular and plural forms of nouns, because the "default" version of many role descriptions is grammatically male and we don't have a traditional way of expressing agnosticism about the gender of the person fulfilling the role.

BESW

I'm a little worried that this conversation is conflating externally-assigned gender of nonsapient beings and inanimate objects, with self-assessed gender of people. Not that this isn't historically accurate but in terms of mindfulness that history is Not Great.

ACuriousMind

So people trying to avoid gendered language don't foremost argue about pronouns, they argue about how to form these role descriptions in a gender-agnostic way, and thinking about the pronoun is usually a secondary (but no less difficult) concern.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

11:24 PM

Following a spiders subreddit, it seems to vary. Sentimental people seem to align actual gender in a sentence with biological sex, others maintain grammatical rules as I know them/seen them explained by English teachers.
I don't follow the topics as closely, but mammals such as dolphins also seem to be referred to in neuter a reasonable amount of time.

BESW

At any rate, mindfulness about gender should be universal but the specific praxis of that mindfulness needs to be sensitive to the culture and language in which it's practiced.

trogdor

yeah

MikeQ

Speaking of changing the topic, we finally had a sneaking mission in an ongoing Pathfinder campaign. It was originally advertised as a stealth-based campaign, but every session up until now has been mostly combat. So it was a nice change of pace.

trogdor

@BESW yeah I hadn't meant it to come off like that, I only meant to compare some things about language :(

Thomas Markov

@MikeQ I hope your DM isn’t sitting there thinking “I keep trying to give these people opportunities to solve combat through stealth but they keep Leroy Jenkinsing the encounters”

BESW

11:28 PM

(Fun patriarchy fact: the leader of the beehive was assumed to be male by Aristotle because "nature only arms males" and even after they were observed laying eggs the term "king bee" stuck around until the early 1600s when a beekeeper published a book that compared the leader of the beehive to the recently-deceased Queen Elizabeth.)

Thomas Markov

It’s something I struggled with my first few times DMing. I had in mind alternatives to encounters and I thought I made the solutions obvious. Nope, they just charged in there, even the rogue.

Mark Wells

@ThomasMarkov You gotta make "just charging in there" an obvious mistake.

MikeQ

@ThomasMarkov I doubt it. The GM had initially described the campaign differently to different players, so the party is split between stealth characters, RP characters with rich backstories, and bloodthirsty combat-hungry characters.

Thomas Markov

@MikeQ Maybe you’ve been taken for a ride and it was a clever ruse to just get a diverse party :P

MikeQ

Because of the split, there have been story-heavy moments where the combat-hungry players interject about being bored and wanting to cast fireball, and also long combats where the RP-hungry players have fallen asleep

BESW

11:33 PM

@MikeQ Oof that's rough.

MikeQ

Anyway, one of the changes from PF1 to PF2 is a blanket nerf of the once-useful utility/support/control spells, my illusionist wizard with low damage output has been mostly useless up until this session

Mark Wells

There was a recent discussion on Reddit about how to run a heist in D&D, and one of the key points was that the typical (modern) D&D party has no reason to do a heist. They can just crush any opposition and won't suffer any meaningful consequences for it.

If you want a heist to happen, the opposition needs to be able to bring overwhelming force.

BESW

[amused] Or the characters need to have interpersonal stakes that take priority over their autocratic need to accumulate wealth and power.

The whole "PCs can crush any opposition" attitude falls to bits if the PCs stop seeing all opposition as deserving of crushing, and starts being concerned about the impact of their crushing on the people and society around them.

Mark Wells

Yes, a large part of the problem there is playing characters who are completely detached from the community.

BESW

And the tendency to assume that all opposition is inherently evil according to the game's internally inconsistent "moral" framework.

I like to use Mad Max as an example: by the end of the first film he's completely detached from any community, he has no social ties or community investment. But the next three films are about him encountering communities and failing to treat them with the disregard he thinks he "should."

MikeQ

11:42 PM

@ThomasMarkov In any case, we certainly could have fought our way through the area. The GM made battle maps and such. But instead the wizard turned the party invisible, and used ghost sound and message to distract the guards and spoof commands to the guards

BESW

In Road Warrior, Max keeps trying to only be interested in the materials the community can supply, but he finds --to his own frustration-- that he can't let them die through his own inaction. Because despite his trauma, he has compassion and empathy and he values the lives of people who cannot possibly benefit him, to the point that he will risk his own life for them.

MikeQ

If mainstream D&D-ish games had robust mechanics for empathy & befriending as it did for combat & magical murder, I imagine the popular gameplay approaches and typical gameplay stories would end differently

Until then, there's always charisma checks and invisibility, which come in handy if you need to flee an awkward social situation

Mark Wells

@MikeQ I still have bad memories of the 3e attempt at this: "Here's the Diplomacy skill. Like all skills, it's useless, unless you totally specialize in it, at which point it becomes the voice of Saruman."

MikeQ

@MarkWells I do think a reverse heist (where the enemy NPCs attempt a heist on the PCs) is feasible in D&D-ish systems, although I have yet to implement it successfully.

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