TRPG General Chat

12:06 AM

8

I am running a D&D 5e campaign, and we had an interesting case come up in play last night. The party cast minor illusion to conceal themselves in a cave at the end of a narrow canyon, and then a Spined Devil, with telepathy, spoke to them telepathically (and they replied). Does the presence of th...

A. B.

With regard to what happened on Saturday. I did not mean any of the things people appear to have taken me to mean. Sorry if I managed to give anyone the impression that I did.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I'm learning that and absolutely loving it. I had no idea they were making a TRPG of it!

I'm pretty curious how one would do that. But I'll certainly be keeping an eye out!

BESW

12:25 AM

@A.B. Thank you. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me pointing out "hey, that's not a great thing to say" is not the same as saying "I think you meant this horrible thing." When I say things that aren't what I mean, I want people to tell me so I can improve my ability to say what I mean. So that's how I approach others, too.

nitsua60

@A.B. So, I had some thoughts while I was puttering about in the garden. Ping me in the NAB some time if you're interested. (But I'm busy-ish for the next hour, sorry.)

A. B.

@BESW Aw, thanks!

@nitsua60 I'm... kind of tired.

Unless you mean thoughts about something other than fights in chat rooms, in which case I'm all ears, but still probably tired so don't expect intelligent answers immediately. :-)

Oh, you said Notabar, right. Pinging there too.

A. B.

12:56 AM

But honestly I think by this point any further discussion on that topic isn't accomplishing anything on any side except making me cross.

I have absolutely no idea regarding the spiny devil.

Except to wonder if a spined devil is anything like a thorny devil. :-) upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/… How do I do proper links in the mobile version?

nitsua60

[link text](target_url) renders like this

Shalvenay

hey there btw @linksassin

linksassin

1:12 AM

@Shalvenay G'day. Your thought experiment is interesting. I'm too busy at the moment to give it proper attention. But I will get to it when I have a chance

Hot RPG Questions

8

Q: Do Githzerai hatch from eggs?

We know that Githyanki hatch from eggs from this question. Is there a specific source that says the Githzerai hatch from/lay eggs?

dnd-5e monsters lore gith

A. B.

Thanks Nitsua. testing testing

yay!

BESW

1:30 AM

@RedOrca [wave]

user15026

@Rubiksmoose It's such a good series. I loved it when I read it.

Red Orca

@BESW Well met!

BESW

I saw you doing some data on the protection thing, thanks for that.

Red Orca

Yeah...I may have gotten a little carried away in "investigation mode". Slow day at work. I didn't intend to call anyone out, so apologies if any of it came across that way!

BESW

@Ash Ooof it's so good but also so hard. So many very real feels.

user15026

1:38 AM

@BESW oh man yes so many

BESW

I just had some brain lightning. Does anybody know of games which reach outward from the table into the participants' communities? Like, a game with an expectation of engagement with friends/family/neighbours somehow?

MikeQ

A viral game? Like the game that you lose if you think about it?

linksassin

@BESW Do you mean actually TTRPGs or things like "wide games" and the sort of things that get run at youth groups?

BESW

@linksassin I'm specifically thinking about TRPGs but am willing to cast my net wider.

linksassin

Note: Not sure if "wide games" is a colloquial term or not.

BESW

1:40 AM

I've got ideas percolating about games that value process over product, and consider the game a thing which also happens to people who aren't at the table but are part of the community in which the game occurs. Putting the focus on the people and calling for mindfulness about existing in that moment and the people who share that moment.

So before I try to invent the wheel I wanna see what wheels other people have made.

linksassin

I don't know of any TRPGs but have played plenty of wide-games and youth group activities that require engaging with people.

BESW

Sort of like... oh, a little bit like how el teatro del oprimido re-imagines theater spaces, maybe.

linksassin

Things like the trading game. Where everyone starts with a paperclip and has to go out into the community to trade with people. At the end of the night the winner is the team with the best item.

user15026

@linksassin yeah, I immediately thought of that one when you mentioned youth group stuff

MikeQ

If the game doesn't stop at the table, then how can it establish boundaries and prevent bleed?

BESW

1:44 AM

Bleed isn't always bad. But a game has boundaries or it's not a game. Just because we've challenged the supreme impenetrability of the table/community barrier and made it permeable, doesn't mean we've thrown out the boundary entirely.

Peter Cooper Jr.

Things like a community scavenger hunt, where teams go out in cars to people's houses (generally people they know) to find a list of items?

That kind of thing?

linksassin

I've definitely been involved in games that didn't have well defined boundaries. Lessons were learned.

BESW

Potentially? I'm thinking more about a game which produces a call to action, that has both table time and community time.

linksassin

We had one game that was a video challenge. There was bunch of objectives that you had to film yourselves doing. The problematic one was "Follow a red car for 5 minutes".

BESW

Like... someone in another chat just told me about I Know How To Free Them by Paul Czege:

linksassin

1:46 AM

Thankfully most people realised that was a terrible idea and aborted.

BESW

> I Know How To Free Them is a (mostly) solo play game about freeing a character hidden in a book. You discover aspects of the character in response to prompts, including a talent they have that the world needs, and something they believe that you yourself have a hard time believing.
At the end, to determine if you succeed at freeing the character you have to reach out to a friend, coworker, or relative and convince them that the world does indeed need the character's talent and the thing they believe is indeed believable.

That's not really the kind of engagement I'm after, but it's vaguely structurally similar.

Adeptus

@Rubiksmoose I've just started it. I've also read her Dreamblood series, and most of her short story collection (didn't finish it before it had to go back to the library. Now I've bought myself a copy). I haven't read much for the past month or so... kind of burnt out after Deadhouse Gates.

BESW

(Czege seems to do this semi-regularly but I'm not always thrilled with his games' attitude toward consent.)

Peter Cooper Jr.

Alternate reality game

An alternate reality game (ARG) is an interactive networked narrative that uses the real world as a platform and employs transmedia storytelling to deliver a story that may be altered by players' ideas or actions. The form is defined by intense player involvement with a story that takes place in real time and evolves according to players' responses. Subsequently, it is shaped by characters that are actively controlled by the game's designers, as opposed to being controlled by an algorithm as in a computer or console video game. Players interact directly with characters in the game, solve plot...

Some were marketing stunts, but some are much like RPGs but try to overlay onto real-world-space in some way. Again, not sure if that's what you're looking for.

BESW

It's something to think about but no, not really. More about games that have players engaging with the local reality, rather than games which supplant the local reality.

nitsua60

1:51 AM

@BESW If I knew where to look, I'd look for ideas in the Church of Latter-Day Saints' spaces.

MikeQ

Ah ok, so it's not that the game uses its own gameplay to market to others, but rather the gameplay involves affecting a community outside of the game?

BESW

Like. Traditional Western theater is about actors who bring stories to audiences. El teatro del oprimido is about audiences who bring stories to actors.

nitsua60

Sidewalkia!

BESW

@MikeQ Yeah, more like that!

nitsua60

[rummages]

200wordrpg.github.io/2018/rpg/winner/2018/05/18/Sidewalkia.html

It's a silly game, but maybe in the sort of mechanic-space you're feeling around?

Peter Cooper Jr.

1:53 AM

So, "I love bees", which is the only ARG I'm somewhat familiar with (and "familiar" may be a bit of a stretch, and it's been a while at that), involved going to GPS coordinates and conversing with actors. So kind of a game where you went to it, rather than it coming to you. Really not a "community" engagement, though, I suppose.

BESW

When we play a game, it doesn't stay with us. Even if we never mention it to our family and neighbours, it has an effect on our community because it's changed us and we're part of the community. What if games were more cognizant of being part of something beyond the table where they're played? That's a core thought I'm having.

MikeQ

It's kind of like a community service group that "gamifies" community service, but instead of handing out badges, the person's fictional character gets some benefit?

linksassin

@BESW Sounds like improv theatre.

BESW

@nitsua60 That's a good thought. There's definitely elements of faith-in-action in my thought process here. Studying the Sacred Word results in a call to action in your life.

nitsua60

The other place I'd wonder about is LARP-world. There's got to be larpers who've pushed the boundaries of what's "in" vs. "out" of the game they're playing.

BESW

1:57 AM

@linksassin El teatro del oprimido could be called a kind of improv, yes, but it's an improvisation carefully designed to empower an audience to discuss solutions to its community's problems.

Peter Cooper Jr.

And you may need to define "game" somewhat if you want to narrow it down. To some extent, trying to get Boy Scout badges is a game where some of them may end up doing something for your community. Looked at the right (wrong?) way, getting elected to public office is a game.

BESW

yeah, I'm being kinda deliberately open about definitions at this stage because I think that to do what I want to do, I'm going to need to synthesize a lot of things which aren't usually considered part of the TRPG landscape.

nitsua60

The one thing that's jumping out at me is "this may need to be long-form." Because I'm imagining that either something in-game triggers outside interaction, or it's part of the tempo of the game... and I suspect you're imagining something more in-depth than "run across the street and tap the neighbor's mailbox!"

Which makes me think that between "turns" (or phases or actions or epochs) in-game there might need to be hours or days.

linksassin

We once ran a wide game that was required actions in the outside world to earn resources to spend at the table.

MikeQ

@linksassin And how did that turn out?

Peter Cooper Jr.

2:02 AM

There's been a little bit of it in some of the parody Magic the Gathering sets

gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/…

linksassin

Since it was on a camp the actions weren't really "community actions" but could easily be adapted to it

nitsua60

I mean, for a fictional example: suppose we-all were playing a game of Dread and every time a pull were triggered, that person actually needed to take a social risk the next day. We come back to dread next game night and the person tells us about the experience, and their rating of how it went determines whether they get one hand or two on the draw, or if they're on a timer, or something like that.

Sound on the same continent as your notion, @BESW?

linksassin

@MikeQ Pretty well actually. There were some actions you could do at the table and some that required going out to do things. We had a bunch of leaders out around the camp that had various challenges to earn rewards.

BESW

Not exactly, but it could be an interesting structure.

Hah. How's this for a frame: "How can a game be good for people who aren't playing it?"

nitsua60

I might be too hung up on the time/sequentiality element.

Suppose we all agree we're playing $game next game night; for all of us that means we know what RL-things we should do/keep track of/observe during the week to come to the table with...?

MikeQ

2:06 AM

So something with idle components? Play-by-post format can kind of support that asymmetric interaction.

BESW

Idle/intersession components are a definite possibility.

One really low-key idea I had as an example: I've got a game I'm making about traveling librarians. Right now it's just a campaign guide but I wanna mechanize it.

nitsua60

For a trivial example, we're playing D&D but I only have as many spell slots as doors I held for people the last week. Or we're playing fate but the only aspects available to me are ones I gleaned from asking someone how they're doing...?

BESW

And I was thinking, what if part of your time in the town between routes is getting book recommendations for the fictional people on your route, from the real people in your neighbourhood?

MikeQ

The boundaries between game and reality are crucially important. If you want to cross that boundary, you'd need to do so very very carefully. Specifically:
- how do you assure that each player has fair access to resources outside of gameplay time?
- how can a player leave the game voluntarily? what about involuntarily?

BESW

Yeah. Consent and bleed and all of that need to be curated REALLY carefully, and a big part of that is approaching it from a means-not-ends philosophy that focuses on Good Process.

MikeQ

2:11 AM

I just don't see how this would work for anyone who views gameplay fiction as an escape from real life

user15026

Then it wouldn't be a game for them, potentially.

BESW

This is absolutely not that kind of game.

This is a concept which directly challenges the possibility of that divide being anything more than a polite fiction.

user15026

If I am understanding right, it would be baked in from the get-go, so it wouldn't be a surprise?

MikeQ

Ah, yes, I suppose that was sort of obvious. I didn't phrase that right.

BESW

@Ash Yeah. I don't like surprises like that so I wouldn't try to make a game with that kind of surprise.

MikeQ

2:14 AM

The game's designers would need extra care, both in how the game is designed and how it is presented, to avoid using incentives to manipulate people into harmful behavior

I think that's more along the lines of what I meant. Does that make sense?

BESW

A more aggressive frame for this question, which actually opens up dialogue for more traditional game formats, would be "How can a game take responsibility for its impact on the community in which it is played?"

@MikeQ Yes, that's absolutely a major consideration that should never be far from our minds!

MikeQ

Hm, yes, I suppose it would be. Sorry for raining on the parade like that. I've had bad experiences with bleed, and I tend to have knee-jerk reactions when someone suggests doing something that I've seen end in disaster.

nitsua60

In a completely different direction, here's a 200-word RPG that absolutely does not take responsibility for the number of index cards it might consume: Recursive Roleplay 200-word RPG

MikeQ

roll factorial dice

excuse me what

nitsua60

They could have saved a few words, but I guess they're committed to GOTO-less RPGing.

It did just occur to me that one could easily require 720 dice. Not saying my regular group couldn't scrounge that up, mind you....

MikeQ

2:29 AM

I did run a session with 1-deep recursive tabletop RPG gameplay, mostly as a joke

Dunno if I've ever seen 2-deep recursive before

This one seems to have infinite (or at least probabilistic) depth

BESW

@MikeQ No worries! I think that in the current TRPG climate it's better to be overcautious about making sure people are aware of safety and consent issues, than to be not cautious enough.

user15026

@nitsua60 I don't even understand how that would even function

nitsua60

@Ash We start playing a quickly-made RPG. Every time an action has to be resolved, that actually spawns a new RPG. I think.

Whatever it is, I think if @BESW ran it at their next game night they'd discover the RPG they've been thinking about tonight. Monkeys/typewriters, at that point =)

BESW

trogdor

lol

Ben

2:42 AM

Came up with an interesting weapon concept: A shield axe

Dragon prince gave me the idea

Adeptus

Is that just a shield with a sharpened edge, or...?

nitsua60

@Adeptus No, an axe with a large, thin body =)

MikeQ

Maybe it's a shield on a stick

nitsua60

@MikeQ or a double-bit without a stick!

Ben

So the idea cane from someone using the shield as a (very *very large) fist weapon.

Clearly, the edge would have to be sharpened for this use, and the shield was worn down the arm, rather than across it.

So it got me thinking, you could use it as a shiled, then have a small-headed hammer, then comine the two to make it into a two-handed axe

Adeptus

2:58 AM

Reminds me of tortoise blades from Dark Sun - though that's shield-sword not shield-axe. I think it might be based on a real-world weapon, but I'm not sure.

Ben

3:13 AM

Ahh ok I get ya Similar but different I guess.

In my idea the shield would have a sharpened edge, so it would become the blade

MikeQ

So like a mezzaluna with a shield in front?

Joel Harmon

3:40 AM

@nitsua60 Are you familiar with 1000 Blank White Cards?

Also, who is to say that factorial dice is of the d6 variety?

Ben

3:55 AM

So you have a shield and hammer, then you loop the hammer handle through the arm holds, and make it a battle/great axe

Yuuki

So a Charge Blade?

But an axe instead of a sword.

Ben

I think you'd have a hard time convincing your DM to let you have a charge blade :P

Bardic Wizard

4:29 AM

@Ben I don’t think any DM I know would let me have one.

trogdor

4:46 AM

@Ben I feel like this would have to be either ineffective as a shield, or ineffective as an axe

Ben

There would be a tradeoff, yeah

Yuuki

7:02 AM

@trogdor Why not a regular shield and warhammer then require an action (or bonus action) to change it into a two-handed axe (and back)?

I don't see why it has to be a bad shield or a bad axe.

trogdor

7:48 AM

I wasn't thinking game mechanics honestly, I was thinking "what if someone just made this thing?"

XD

and I was assuming that if it can be changed between a shield and an axe, that it might not be entirely effective at both of those things

Hot RPG Questions

9:02 AM

5

Q: Cheap Earth Elemental tactics

I'm DMing a campaign themed around monsters based on the elements, so making use of the Elementals naturally came to mind. Taking a look at the Earth Elemental, it strikes me that there is some very strong potential for making use of incredibly cheap tactics depending on the terrain. Essentially,...

dnd-5e monsters combat balance

BESW

trogdor

lol

BESW

9:34 AM

The Asians Represent Podcast is unimpressed (twitter link) with WotC's quiet addition of a buried content disclaimer on its older store material.

As Phenexian points out (twitter link), "unlike cartoons [which seem to be model WotC used for the disclaimer], DnD books are guides for how to craft new stories. It's designed to propagate those ideas. They're not equivalent."

"What does belonging outside belonging mean?" by Avery Alder on Buried Without Ceremony.

BESW

9:55 AM

13 hours of Tabletop Gayms! Dragonhearts!

►

Dee Pennyway talks on twitter about the layout for their upcoming Kickstarter project Mnemonic: A Weaver's Almanac

Ajey Pandey wrote a twitter thread about how his game Bolt is "not really aiming for newcomers. It's going for GAME DESIGNERS."

Kickstarter: Wait For Me by Jeeyon Shim and Kevin Kulp is a 21-day journaling game about time travel and connection.

The Asians Represent Podcast will be using Quest RPG for their actual play series (twitter link) and Daniel Kwan wrote about some of the factors leading to the choice (also twitter link).

BESW

10:20 AM

Upcoming Kickstarter (15 July): Necronautilus: Heavy Metal Science Fantasy TTRPG: Emergent storytelling in a galaxy ruled by Death by Adam Vass. Catalogue new planets in a dead galaxy, learn powerful magical words, & remember who you once were. For story gamers & osr fans alike.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW OSR ?

BESW

Yup.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, repeated url at end of long post (178): Are the instructions given in the "Planar Binding" spell part of the casting time, or can instructions be amended during the spell duration? by aLA on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

BESW

It's worth noting that for quite some time OSR spaces were dominated by toxic abusive personalities, and there's a lot being done now to cleanse OSR of that influence but it's still a work in progress. Necronautilus was recommended to me by people I generally trust not to recommend known problems.

Movements like #SWORDDREAM (itchio jam link) came directly out of a movement among OSR content creators to actively reject the patterns of bigotry and abuse in OSR communities.

BESW

10:46 AM

(Not that mainstream D&D isn't dominated by toxic abusive personalities, I should say, but in OSR they were often less disguised and there's now more effort to actively defy their influence. And it's not like there's not crossover; one of the big names now disavowed by OSR was invited to playtest 5e.)

doppelgreener

11:11 AM

@BESW From what I understand, not long ago Google Plus was the home of OSR. Then when OSR shut down, the community fractured as it found new places to go to. One of those places was basically a "free speech!! suck it up snowflakes!!!!" type forum which made a lot of issues very obvious even to those who had not yet noticed them.

BESW

11:42 AM

Lizzie B wrote a twitter thread about how "Death of the Author" is not here to be your Get Out Of Ethical Conflict Free card.

3

BESW

12:18 PM

Mar 12 at 21:19, by BESW

cavegirl (@DyingStylishly) explains OSR in a Twitter thread.

doppelgreener

12:39 PM

Hey folks. I'm trying to recall something I encountered during the past couple of weeks, and am appealing to the community memory.

NautArch

@doppelgreener error: PC load letter

Someone_Evil

We're going to need more details for a content identification question :p

doppelgreener

I came across a description (and screenshots!) of a WotC expansion for D&D that attempted to represent Native Americans. In it, the author saw fit to give Native Americans a penalty to INT and WIS scores. (Or just INT? Pretty sure it was both.)

There was another—or maybe the same one—that sorted out about six different tribes. I saw a screenshot of them. One of the tribes was described as having no spoken language. Another was described as being “the most civilised”.

I believe both were described in a tweet, probably from something linked here. Both had screenshots.

kviiri

I am glad I didn't see that

NautArch

@kviiri Just read through a lot of the 13th age core rules (but not yet class/race info). The whole icon/background system is very cool!

doppelgreener

12:43 PM

Very yes. But it's come up in discussions connected to their continuing to sell Oriental Adventures (although neither of these are in that expansion specifically).

Someone_Evil

3 hours ago, by BESW

As Phenexian points out (twitter link), "unlike cartoons [which seem to be model WotC used for the disclaimer], DnD books are guides for how to craft new stories. It's designed to propagate those ideas. They're not equivalent."

Oh.. it's presumably from longer ago than that

kviiri

@NautArch Nice ^_^

RedRiderX

@BESW Somewhat unrelated but Lindsay Ellis just put out a video on the limits of Death of the Author as a critical theory in the wake of J. K. Rowling getting wild on Twitter.

NautArch

@kviiri I'll probably start with building a character next to get an idea of that and I found a one-shot online for levels 1-4 that I plan on running (because I'm definitely not ready to homebrew a one-shot)

But I may use the one I make for yours :)

kviiri

Okely dokely :3

NautArch

12:53 PM

If so, i'll work with you on the backgrounds - I had no idea that was a "make these up yourself" thing!

BESW

@RedRiderX I think she still kinda misses the point that it's an analytical frame, not an ethical frame.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I've seen DotA used to attack authors, now it seems someone was using it to defend an author . . . maybe it's time to just let DotA . . . die? Or at least stop weaponizing it?

BESW

@NautArch I super apprecrate how such a D&D-like thing is introducing people to player agency through creative control. You can just write down something in a background and it's true about the world! And then as you tell stories to justify background applications, you continue to exercise that creative agency over the world throughout the campaign.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Or, unfortunately, let people decide how and where they want to draw a line between artist and art.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@NautArch I'm not sure how the 'unfortunately' descriptor is supposed to be applied to the rest of the suggestion.

NautArch

12:57 PM

@BESW It's makes the whole thing much more integrated. And encourages adding roleplay to your combat, too.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica In that, for better or worse, it does permit 'accepting' some awfully awful actions by artists in favor of their output.

BESW

It's a shame it's attached to a system carrying so much [gestures expansively] baggage. Backgrounds and icons are concepts I'd like to lift for a BESW Home Game System some time.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

To paraphrase\* Voltaire's biographer: 'I despise what you write, but will defend to the death your ability to keep writing it'.

\* == Because memory is imperfect.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's a bit different.

nitsua60

@NautArch "PC load letter!? What the [redacted] does that mean!?"

RedRiderX

@BESW I see your point, especially compared to the twitter thread you linked. Also it looks like Lindsay actually went and tried to clarify that aspect in a pinned comment.

BESW

1:04 PM

@RedRiderX [grumbles about linking to Natalie] This is a point that's r🐘 to conversations about Wizards, though:

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener reminds me vaguely of OG W:TA clans

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I'm not talking about not allowing someone to create art. I'm talking about supporting an artist that has personal views/actions that are abhorrent to someone.

BESW

> it's not just about where you spend your dollars - by engaging in fandom and promoting her material, you are still promoting her brand and therefore her influence.

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch "Free speech doesn't me I am oblidged to listen to what you have to say"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@NautArch In practice, people often go above and beyond stopping support of those they disagree with, but into taking measures that attempt to pressure others into also ceasing to support or listen, or disrupting others' ability to listen.

BESW

1:08 PM

Jul 5 at 5:56, by BESW

Ajey Pandey wrote a twitter thread appealing streamers, adventure writers, and other content creators, to pivot from Wizards products to indie products.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Just as the artist has a right to publish, the public has a right to educate others about the artist.

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I'm fine with telling people not to support JKR, but I won't go as far as snatching books from hands etc. That's an amount of pressure

NautArch

^^

AncientSwordRage

in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, 41 mins ago, by AncientSwordRage

complicated things are complicated

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@NautArch Yeah, they are; that's OK; that's still in the range of ethically-OK methods. But then there are those who e.g. want to pressure shops into pulling down books/music/films/&c., using some sort of conditional threats. That kind of stuff, while certainly legal in the capitalistic paradigm, unethical, unlike the former.

BESW

1:13 PM

@doppelgreener I'm positive I saw a conversation about this in chat, probably within the last month or two, it happened while I was asleep I think.

But I can't find it.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

This is the difference between 'subjectively, I don't want to consume X' vs. 'anyone who consumes X is having BadWrongFun and must cease'. It's sometimes hard to separate former from the latter.

Carcer

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica conditional threats like, what, boycotting?

protesting outside of?

doppelgreener

@BESW I am also positive I saw it here

Carcer

it's not about badwrongfun, it's about taking actions that support bad people

BESW

@doppelgreener I think somebody pointed out that a Wis penalty was weird since it doesn't even match the usual stereotypes.

doppelgreener

1:16 PM

Basically in a capitalist society one of our primary means of "voting" in the social space is with our dollars. If I put my dollars into a company for doing a thing, that company will probably keep doing more of that thing. Buy a great book? They might make a sequel, or they'll at least try to make more books learning from whatever made that book successful.

It's not about "how dare you enjoy thing", it's more a point of being mindful of what I am engaged in consuming.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@Carcer Boycotting is on the lower end (legal in a capitalist paradigm, but depending on purpose potentially unethical); there's also spamming, flooding review boards with non-review 'reviews', brigading, revealing personally identifiable information, negatively influencing education or job prospects . . .

doppelgreener

And, collectively, it is about how we can examine our consumption and engagement habits in order to prompt change.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Generally the big division between 'I do not want this produced and thus will not money-vote for it' vs. 'I think nobody should be allowed to money-vote for this, and I will use emergent second-order systems to ensure nobody is able to'.

There's a lot of abyss-staring involved in this whole topic.

doppelgreener

One of the worst things we could do in this conversation is assume it means we must automatically do things we'd be unhappy with, like condemning everybody who dares enjoy $thing.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

It's easy for people to blur the line between the two ends of the spectrum, unfortunately.

doppelgreener

1:20 PM

That's basically shutting down intellectually on it.

Carcer

@doppelgreener is it possible the content being referenced is the 2e Maztica Campaign Box Set for FR?

doppelgreener

It's a conversation to have and a space to explore.

@Carcer It could well be. I've been having trouble digging that back up.

Carcer

it breaks down Mazticans into 4 major cultural groups and suggests optional ability score modifiers

BESW

@doppelgreener Yeah, I wouldn't even make it a monetary argument; playing D&D with friends feeds Wizards' cultural capital in your vicinity even if you pirate all the materials so no money changes hands. Ajey's thread above talks about how difficult that choice can be for creatives, but also points out that platforming indie devs is a more productive frame for the conversation than deplatforming Wizards can be.

doppelgreener

@Carcer As far as I can tell, it is not Maztica. They do not have those five-six tribal groups (which were all covered on one page in a short paragraph each) nor the automatic penalty to being a native person.

Carcer

1:24 PM

I can't find any sourcebooks specifically about Maztica from other editions, so if it was Maztica this must be it.

doppelgreener

@BESW This too.

Carcer

@doppelgreener (it does describe six individual nations with short paragraphs)

doppelgreener

@Carcer on one page? I might have missed it

Carcer

page 48, but trails onto next page

but yeah, no automatic penalties, they're all of the form that you may take a penalty in exchange for a bonus of some other kind and most of them get an int bonus, not penalty

doppelgreener

Definitely not this one. The one that had the tribal descriptions wasn't using a two-column layout for it, and IIRC the tribe with no language was something like "stone something".

Carcer

1:27 PM

this is undoubtedly still awful in a variety of ways but doesn't sound like the awful you're remembering, no

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Those are just two points long a spectrum

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Oh, one can certainly extend it past those points in both directions, but exploring those would probably be a distant tangent.

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I mean there's nuance between those points

reducing it to X vs Y just reduces the conversational complexity of the topic

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Ah. Indeed. I did admit the existence of a spectrum in an earlier post. Maybe should've reiterated that.

BESW

@AncientSwordRage Especially as Y wasn't even part of the conversation here in the first place, I'm a bit confused about that.

AncientSwordRage

1:36 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I missed it too

@BESW that is also a good point

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

1:49 PM

@AncientSwordRage An example of a heavily Y-leaning proposal would be the objection to certain products existing as the option on the 'ballot' for people's money-voting. Removing the product from the 'ballot' suppresses others' ability to money-vote for it. (In this case 'remove from the ballot' means removing an otherwise available and existing product from a shelf, especially a virtual one where shelf space is not a concern.)

Someone_Evil

Oh, and thanks @doppelgreener for the image on the edit war answer. It probably gets the idea across better than my words do :)

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I have zero problem with that. I have a problem with doxxing or personally attacking someone, but zero problems with pressuring an establishment to not carry something.

@Someone_Evil wabbit season!

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I love it.

AncientSwordRage

@Someone_Evil Link for the Lazy?

@NautArch Same here

Thomas Markov

To be clear, it is duck season.

BESW

1:52 PM

6

A: What is an "edit war" and is it ever appropriate?

What is an edit war? Edit Warring is when two (or more) users disagree about something (generally whether something should have a specific edit) and uses their privileges to do and undo that edit repeatedly. For example, one editor believes the question should include a particular paragraph, anot...

AncientSwordRage

AHHH

Glazius

@ThomasMarkov I think you'll find that, ultimately, it's Elmer season.

2

Thomas Markov

Touche.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@NautArch In the world where one votes with one's wallet, it's essentially a form of vote-suppression. Similar to how in Lukashenka's Belarus, other candidates in the election seem to be running into problems registering for the election, despite voters wanting to see them on the ballot.

AncientSwordRage

I read it as the answer that was subject to an edit war, not the meta answer about edit wars

Medix2

1:54 PM

@AncientSwordRage Imagine the edit war description having a pre-planned edit war as an example

BESW

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica At this point you've completely changed the subject of the conversation and I'm gonna ask that anyone still interested in it move to the Not A Bar.

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil hehehehehehe

i'm glad you like that.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica That's stretching the "vote" thing a little far.

Thomas Markov

After messing with the stackexchange data explorer, I think this is the most downvoted post that hasnt been deleted: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50460/…

BESW

Yup, it's had that dubious honor pretty much from the moment it was posted.

Thomas Markov

2:00 PM

quick question, whats the close reason for unbounded list question?

opinion based?

see here: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/171666/…

Someone_Evil

Aren't there like 3 solutions to that?

Thomas Markov

"I wonder how many opportunities there are, including spells, multiclassing, items, etc, both temporary solutions and without time limit."

as written its just asking for every conceivable method for changing into an animal.

doppelgreener

@BESW just to check, are we still okay to discuss the original topic pre-subject-being-changed-completely?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov needs more focus

Someone_Evil

There's a heavily implied "That's provided by the rules". If you think there's ambiguity about that, ask for a clarification

BESW

2:03 PM

@doppelgreener Yeah, but we should probably remember to be careful about it, as there's a lot of personal harm potential.

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov there's another super downvoted post where a mod left a comment that was basically "This answer is just the worst, but I'm leaving it undeleted so people can see and learn from just how bad this take is."

Thomas Markov

How do I find it :p

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Other questions have asked similar things in my experience

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov Presumably it'll be one of the ones not far behind that one on data explorer

Medix2

Like "All the ways to get Paladin exclusive spells without being a Paladin" or "All that ways to add ability modifiers to AC"

Thomas Markov

2:06 PM

found it

-30

A: How can I politely ask a player to leave my game?

That’s an easy one. Handicap his character forcing him to develop his RP skills. This can be done a million different ways. ex: forced polymorph, death with new creation requirements, equipment loss, forced individual diplomacy, Stat losses, unusual poisoning/enchantment, charmed/cursed equipmen...

doppelgreener

I have intentionally not deleted this, as I believe (at time of commenting) -7 downvotes is more instructive than no answer. This is an abysmally wrong answer, however. — Brian Ballsun-Stanton Dec 7 '13 at 7:00

that's the one

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 "an upsettingly fair point" has to be one of my new favourite phrases

There's plenty of reasons why you'd want a small-table-large-book scenario

Someone_Evil

And in "Don't bother too much about individual (down)votes", that answer has 3 upvotes to its 33 34 35 down

Medix2

Yeah at which point I say buy a bigger table (make a bigger grove)

@Someone_Evil That statement may become more and more incorrect over the next few minutes XD

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 But what if you want the whole grove covered by one of the effects?

Someone_Evil

2:10 PM

@Medix2 Fortunately, I have the powers to deal with that :)

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage I don't think there's any benefit to that tbh

OH you're the same person. I was so confused how you just somehow stumbled upon my comment

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 Ah yeah, I have a different name on one stack, but it happens to be the one that's linked to chat

@Medix2 it means that there're fewer 'safe' routes to entry

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage But nothing is gained by entering?

There's no difference between grove patch 1A and grove-less patch 1A if they're both always non-spiked

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 I imagine the reason for creating a grove is to make it difficult to enter because something unrelated to the spell is inside

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage But then the size of the Grove doesn't matter, only the thing inside it

Like

I don't think there's any downside to making your grove larger

Thomas Markov

2:15 PM

"what if the book is bigger than your table" - brilliant.

Medix2

Just make the table bigger imo, I don't see any downside to doing so

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 maybe were casting it on a small natural park inside of a city full of buildings.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Then how does spike growth fit??

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov theres a good point

Thomas Markov

the park is a 20 radius circle:p

Medix2

2:18 PM

@ThomasMarkov Then make the Grove 35 feet long and everything works

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 I can only imagine how upset the council gets if you fill their park with thorny bushes

Medix2

Since the grove moves around and ignores buildings, any space in which you can fit spike growth can also be fit in a 35-foot grove

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 even with a 90 foot park, I might want to center the spike growth less than twenty feet from the boundary. Or I might want my point of origin for the gust of wind to be less than 60 feet from the boundary.

Would it be helpful to add diagrams for the other two options?

Medix2

At which point what you're wanting is for an effect to extend well outside your designated grove

doppelgreener

@Someone_Evil Don't worry about individual downvotes. Do worry about very large numbers of downvotes.

AncientSwordRage

2:22 PM

@doppelgreener also replace individual with initial and it's still true

@Medix2 perhaps you want to minimize the area for people dispelling the grove

Thomas Markov

Still the same question, and should have the same answer.

Medix2

Grr now I want to post and self-answerd a question on all the ways to turn into a beast...

@AncientSwordRage I doubt that considering dispel magic has a range of 120 feet

Thomas Markov

wait did op delete the question?

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 Or detect? I'm not sure

having to resize one or the other seems arbitrary

Someone_Evil

@AncientSwordRage Detect has 30 ft radius

Medix2

2:25 PM

If somebody really wanted some horribly contrived park-planner and homeowners association hate avoiding druid grove complete with deadly spikes, I'll let them have it

AncientSwordRage

I can't put my finger on why it feels wrong but it does...it's why I haven't got a good answer to the question or the comments here

Medix2

I do see what you mean, there is the point where I question the applicability and occurance of such a ruling needing to be made and also said myself that the rules are ambiguous and people are free to rule either way and I can see both making sense

Darn editing on mobile where the send button somehow resends the message...

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Yes, and don't follow them up on it (unless it's reposted)

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil I dont even know how I could do that lol

Medix2

Invite to a chat is my only guess which just sounds like a bad idea

KorvinStarmast

2:32 PM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica both, please

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica that distinction seems to be lost too often

doppelgreener

47 mins ago, by BESW

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica At this point you've completely changed the subject of the conversation and I'm gonna ask that anyone still interested in it move to the Not A Bar.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener no.

doppelgreener

FWIW, the initial topic is still fine for conversation

but around the point it was getting derailed, that part's moved elsewhere

i think, in hindsight, you were responding to before that point, sorry

NautArch

2:48 PM

Given the conversation, I do think it's best to shift to NAB for any of it.

doppelgreener

I cannot in good faith relegate discussion of WotC's and its place in our community (specific or broad) to merely NAB, so I will not be able to move to NAB for just anything to do with that.

NautArch

@doppelgreener This isn't about the specifics of WoTC and their actions, but about the more general discussion of death of the author.

Carcer

eh, the topics are a bit intertwined

NautArch

If we dig deeply into the responses, they could be. BUt if the discussion is about WoTC's actions and less about directing people what to do about it against WoTC, I think it's okay.

people can make their own decisions based off the education.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener have you found this yet? It's bugging me because I know I saw it here or somewhere...

doppelgreener

2:53 PM

You do realise we, as a community, will need to examine our own actions in context of us amplifying WotC and enabling it to continue in its present course?

@Rubiksmoose Not yet.

BESW

And let's be crystal clear that there are certain "opinions," such as those espoused by an author who's getting mentioned in our reference materials, which are just debunked psuedoscience leveraged to legitimize debates about personhood. When talking about "free speech" and such, this chat considers those subjects the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded theater.

Nobody's cancelling Wizards of the Coast, that is literally not an achievable action. It's people like Orion Black who are being driven out of the industry by WotC and its adherents. Let's not get that muddled up in hypotheticals that ignore where the influence and power is concentrated.

@doppelgreener This conversation is long overdue, but not really surprising that rpg.se hasn't been willing to face it yet.

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