TRPG General Chat

Someone_Evil

00:02

I mean like [gaming.se] creates a link to Arqade

Ah, [boardgames.se], of course..

nitsua60

@Carcer The challenge is all the knock-on effects. I had to spend two hours on the phone with the airline today to straighten things out for my kid who was supposed to go JFK --> LHR --> Seoul --> JFK and now can't =(

KorvinStarmast

00:53

OK, IMO, this did not need to be closed, since the Des Reasons tag was added before the "they are to be closed" meta was chosen. It's a lore question. But, since I have an answer on that, I will not be hasty in casting reopen votes. Thoughts and inputs are solicited.

Just remove the tag, eh?

Someone_Evil

Tag isn't the problem. The current question is phrased "Have the designers given a reason for the difference?" so the tag is accurate (and removing it does not make it on topic)

KorvinStarmast

@Someone_Evil we went through this before, and I successfully argued that it is a history of game question. And it was reopened

Or are we back to the "should = opinion" thing here?

Someone_Evil

As I understand it (and this was decided before my time on the stack), questions asking for the reasons of designers (for D&D (5e)) attracted too many problems (and problematic answers) and so were decided off topic because the stack wasn't able/willing to deal with the answers and their problem

Therefore we close old questions like it because we don't want to have to deal with new answers to them

(Should I refresh myself on some old metas?)

Medix2

I at least think it should be closed since, as it currently stands, designer-reasons questions are off-topic. And this question quite clearly wants designer reasons: "Why did the designers make it so chromatic dragons can't shapechange? [...] Have the designers given a reason for the difference?"

Whether those sorts of questions should be off-topic is something discussed a good bit across the meta (I can provide some links). That said, it did all occur before I was a member of Stack

nitsua60

01:20

With a really well-sourced and -received answer like yours, @KorvinStarmast, it almost feels like it'd make sense to massage the question (whose querent last acted on site March of 2016) into the history-of-gaming question that is answered. Preserves the value, keeps des-reasons out of the mess.

I mean, I'd still ping OP to ask if that's alright, even with their long inactivity, but if there's no response after a week or two....

(I'm racking my brain trying to remember when on meta we've discussed this sort of thing: "saving" a question. It often causes more trouble than it's worth, but this might be the exception?)

Akixkisu

02:15

@KorvinStarmast that question looks like it should be locked because off topic, but relevant. Though I dislike that mechanic, and I'd rather see it restated as a history of gaming question that meets the answer.

V2Blast

Part of the issue is that it's explicitly looking for designer reasoning/statements - the revision history indicates that that request became more explicit, not less.

There are multiple deleted answers just giving speculation despite the explicit request, which is a major part of why designer-reasoning questions became disallowed in the first place.

I think there's a valid question to be asked about how/whether "chromatic dragons can't shapechange" has changed over the different editions, but I'd suggest simply asking it as a new question if you find the answers there unsatisfying in answering that question.

OP's question was specifically about designer reasoning, and while some answers reference the history of that restriction in supporting their reasoning or speculation, OP's actual question is about designer reasons - not about the history of such a restriction or the lore behind it. It would be inappropriate to change their question years after the fact to ask something notably different.

nitsua60

02:34

@Akixkisu Could always re-ask and self-answer themself, I suppose. (As I sit here, contemplating a self-answer to my own particular question.)

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast I challenged the frame of the question in the answer, due to the querent having no idea of why/where the limitation came from. FWIW. That is kind of why we have a challenge to the frame. The designers were carrying forward a 40+ year tradition, but how is anyone but a grognard (or even a casual expert) supposed to know that? That said, this is the kind of the discussion I was hoping to generate.

This is a kind of XY question, but I can also see it as a designer reasons question that are post hoc not acceptable, but as a history of the game question, it certainly fits. It falls in both buckets.

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast Sure, OP was not expected to know that. But it's also the case that what OP is asking simply is no longer the type of question allowed here. Whether the question is on-topic or not is not dependent on the answer to the question.

Akixkisu

@nitsua60 absolutely.

KorvinStarmast

If they ask the simple question "why can chromatic dragons not do this but metallic can"(which is the real question) then it fits. That's the problem.

Medix2

That's true of any closed question, no? That some sequence of edits would make it open-able?

KorvinStarmast

02:45

But it's also not a hill worth dying on.

Akixkisu

@Medix2 no. Some questions are always off-topic.

KorvinStarmast

@Medix2 Some yes, some no. And as it's an old question, there is some merit in the position that "the world has moved on"

(ref to Stephen King, Dark Tower, Roland of Gilead ...)

Akixkisu

Clear up comments, save the text from the edit box, lock and re-state seems the like the best way to go about it.

V2Blast

That'd likely have been closed as unclear, because, well, it's not clear whether they're asking for designer reasons (as this question is) or about lore reasons or something else. If specifically looking for designer reasons, it'd have remained closed. If OP was asking about lore, the question could be edited to focus on that specifically and then reopened.
But the generic/unclear "real question" you propose seems like exactly the kind of question that often drew in speculation (as this one did) and caused designer-reasoning questions to be forbidden in the first place.

Medix2

At least to me "What have the designers said about X?" and "What are the historical reasons for X" are very different questions

KorvinStarmast

02:48

@V2Blast Hmm, we have a lot of valid lore questions. There was lore before the FR existed. :-)

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast Okay? I don't see how that contradicts what I'm saying.

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast You and I may not agree on the reason that DR question are dead ... but I am glad that they are.

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast I'm just going off the reasoning stated in that meta about the problems they caused. I wasn't here when they were allowed :P

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast I am not aiming for a contradiction. There isn't an on off switch here. Questions can fit into mutiple buckets.

@V2Blast The problems are a comparatively recent thing; weirdly, they weren't a problem for a long time and then all of a sudden they were. And I should probably stop there.

@V2Blast anyhoo, I got a good consensus, the world has moved on, that can Q sit as is.

V2Blast

I'm already typing a thing so feel free to ignore it/not feel compelled to respond :P

KorvinStarmast

02:54

happy to read it in any case. :)

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast Sure, but... Let's say question B asks for the lore reasons behind a certain thing, and question C asks about the designer reasoning given for a certain thing, and question A just asks "why does this thing [exist/work the way it does]?" Originally, both B and C were allowable questions here, so question A wasn't as much of a problem - albeit potentially unclear, since we can't provide as good an answer if we don't know whether they're asking about just B, just C, or both.

Questions B and C are entirely different from one another - essentially, one's asking for in-universe reasoning, and the other's asking for out-of-universe reasoning.

KorvinStarmast

Is A still good in your illustration?

@V2Blast Bingo, nicely put.

and on that positive note, nite all. :)

V2Blast

Good night!

Originally, a question could ask any one of A, B, or C, and theoretically it was fine... Though as I mention, while A was presumably allowed, sometimes a querent asking question A was specifically looking for an answer to B or specifically looking for an answer to C.

[For simplicity, we can assume that type-A questions have no other subsets of questions except type B (lore) and type C (designer reasons).]

nitsua60

dnd-5e is Artificer the only "real" class not in the PHB? What're the provenances of Blood Hunter and Gunslinger? (Are those things?)

V2Blast

However, questions of type C ended up being disallowed. This also means that we can't just leave question A vague - given the above assumption, it's asking either B, C, or both. Thus, for type-A questions, we need the querent to confirm which of those things they want to know (potentially closing the question as unclear in the interim, if it is not clear which they're asking).

If it's unclear whether they're asking for B or C, or even if they're specifically asking about C, we can explain that questions about C are no longer allowed. Then, the querent can choose whether they're interested in B as well, and potentially edit the question to focus on B. But we can't decide for them that "oh, question C is no longer allowed, so I'm going to change your question to B". They have to decide that for themselves.

...I think that's enough rambling by me. :P
---

@nitsua60 Yes, artificer's the only published official 5e class outside the PHB. The Mystic was in UA at one point but they're not moving forward on that version - it may or may not reappear in in the future.

Blood Hunter is a homebrew/third-party class by Matt Mercer, and Gunslinger is a homebrew/third-party Fighter subclass by Matt Mercer. They're both published on DMsGuild and D&D Beyond, and have special listing on the latter thanks to an advertising partnership with Critical Role, but neither are official. See this Q&A:

25

Q: How "Official" is the Blood Hunter class?

I saw a question recently about the Blood Hunter class, which confused me because the D&D Beyond page for it is very visually distinct from pages for Homebrew, but everything I've seen indicates that D&D 5e has been extremely reticent to introduce whole new classes, instead opting to create more ...

nitsua60

03:11

@V2Blast Gotcha--thanks.

nitsua60

03:24

Puzzle of the day:

Serious question: is there any way to cast a spell attack without adding your proficiency bonus? "Proficiency in spellcasting" isn't a thing that comes from class: the rules of spells say, without reference to class, that your "attack bonus with a spell attack equals your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus." (There's no check to see if you're proficient in anything.) Magic items, too, after discussing which ability modifier (if any) apply say "your proficiency bonus does apply." (Emphasis mine.) But I'm wondering if there's some squirrely edge-case I can't think of? — nitsua60 ♦ 2 mins ago

Medix2

Can't that one Barbarian do that? Wait nevermind, I'm wrong

V2Blast

@nitsua60 Probably not unless something in the game explicitly says so (e.g. some magic item that lets you cast a spell you don't know, but doesn't add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll if a spell attack or doesn't include it to the spell save DC if it requires a saving throw). Not sure any such item or game feature exists, though.

Medix2

Wouldn't this happen with magic items with set DCs?

Okay nevermind, apparently I can't think tonight

nitsua60

@Medix2 Well, that's sort of analogous, for saves. Hadn't thought of that.

Medix2

03:46

@nitsua60 Yeah I don't think you ever wouldn't add your proficiency bonus for attack rolls given that it says: "You add your proficiency bonus to your attack roll [...] when you attack with a spell." (link)

V2Blast

well, yeah, anything with a fixed spell attack modifier or DC is not accounting for your proficiency bonus regardless.

though I figure it generally accounts for the proficiency bonus of someone or something in determining the number

nitsua60

@V2Blast Yeah--I just can't think of anything with a fixed spell attack. DC, sure.

V2Blast

@nitsua60 Spell scrolls? :P

Medix2

I wonder if you add proficiency bonus to a spell scroll..... technically

nitsua60

@V2Blast Sure--it's indexed to the spell's level, not the caster/reader.

Medix2

03:49

I guess a "determined spell attack bonus" probably isn't modified by your proficiency bonus

Do the Wand of Winter and the Dodecahedron of Doom count?

Oh, the Dodecahedron won't count because it does the casting

Hot RPG Questions

10:28

4

Q: Is there a to-hit modifier for the Flame Blade spell's attack?

I'm not sure what to roll to hit with Flame Blade; is it just a straight d20? The description says: You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with the fiery blade. On a hit, the target takes 3d6 fire damage. What do I do when I want to attack with Flame Blade?

dnd-5e spells attack-roll

nitsua60

14:25

56

Q: Planned maintenance scheduled for Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 14:00 UTC (9AM US/Eastern)

tl;dr; Planned service interruption that will impact all Stack Overflow/Stack Exchange sites, Jobs, Chat, and Teams. All sites will be read-only for up to an hour on Saturday, March 7, 2020. Enterprise cloud-hosted instances will not be impacted. Short Version: There will be a service degradati...

discussion featured announcements maintenance

nitsua60

15:05

> Official - Subject to Final Review
JUSTICE BREYER: Let me see I have if right. Your argument is that 1605 -- this --
that this section is really about 1605(a)(7) --
MR. CURRAN: Yes.
JUSTICE BREYER: -- and your cases are big A.
MR. CURRAN: Yes. And there's nothing -- you can look throughout all the 2008 enactment, you will not see a whisper of a suggestion about the temporal application of claims under 1605A. They don't exist. That's why my friends are resorting to the pending action transition provisions, which are irrelevant to what we're talking about.

(source)

Good to know we're not the only ones who struggle with this.

Hot RPG Questions

15:37

6

Q: How does a Fighter's Extra Attack feature work?

The features bonus for a fighter leveling up to level 5 state that the character is bestowed with an Extra Attack. Extra Attack states that: Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn Does this mean: I roll a D20 once, ...

dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter

NautArch

16:30

@nitsua60 I went to school with her (Alisa flatow)

nitsua60

@NautArch I don't know the back-story: I assume she's either a legislator or the victim of a terrorist attack?

NautArch

@nitsua60 victim of terrorist attack

when she was an undergraduate student

nitsua60

Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

NautArch

I was a year behind her, but had friends who were friends with her.

Medix2

@nitsua60 I do believe the Wand of Winter solved your puzzle

NautArch

16:48

I'm not sure if this is an X-Y problem or if there's something else going on. But I've got a strong feeling that the question isn't quite what they want to ask.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Didn't you previously discover that unregisted users can't even flag their own answers (such as for undeletion)?

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil good call. Though this one is registered as far as I can see on mobile, they wouldn't have enough rep to flag.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose If we're talking about the same one (who answered a 3.5 question), they aren't registered (according to my browser)

Rubiksmoose

Oops! Correct again. I didn't click on the profile tab. Still, same issue.

I suspect this was intended as a comment

That answer I mean

Someone_Evil

17:06

Yeah, best guess is it was a reply to the comment thread which needed scourging anyway

Rubiksmoose

I can't remember now but I vaguely recall that flagging your own post was allowed in some cases?

Someone_Evil

49

Q: Allow new users to flag comments on their own posts

Something that has always bothered us about the new user experience was the amount of guidance we've got out there telling folks to flag rude or abusive comments, but not allowing new users to do it, because .. it's complicated. Let's un-complicate it and let new users flag any comment on any po...

discussion status-completed new-users comment-flags

kviiri

17:41

Hm, seems like we're hit by some honest promotion for once. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/165670/…

What's the protocol for these?

Someone_Evil

I was wondering the same thing. Flagging as spam seems meaner that it deserves

kviiri

Yeah, the spam flag includes not disclosing the author's affiliation which that post does. And the majority of the spam guidelines seems to assume it's an answer, not a question.

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil I just went ahead an diamond-deleted it, so no repercussions on the account regarding spamming. Seems like the best way to handle it.

I'll work on a comment to explain why in the hope that they may want to interact normally on the site. We could certainly use more DW questions and answers.

kviiri

Yeah, my heart always skips a beat when DW is mentioned x)

Even though I don't particularly like the system personally... I like that it exists I guess?

Someone_Evil

It seems to be marked as spam regardless (its content are not directly shown to me). Are you sure there are no repercussions?

Medix2

17:54

I'm looking back at my question on "Attack action vs attack" here and I'm wondering if the question part comes across poorly. It seems very "I know the answer but I'm asking anyway" and I'm wondering if I should edit it into something that sounds like a real question, or just leave it as is

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Since I deleted it, it seems to have marked a couple spam flags as "helpful" (since the post was removed and that's what happens to flags when a post is removed), but the post itself was not spam-deleted. I just checked and there are no throttles on the account for spam.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Neat, just checking

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Happy you did! It's good to have a double check.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 I think it's fine. Its a self answer, and a fairly common question to be referred to following other rules questions/misunderstandings

@Rubiksmoose Btw, is there a easy way for you (diamonds, or 25ks) to see the (average) daily views on this question in particular? I feel like it gets enough traffic to warrant being protected

It also just has a lot of views

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil hmmmm not as far as I know. I could with SEDE maybe?

On the other hand, it only has 3 deleted answers and only 1 (maybe 2) of the answers would have been prevented by protection.

Mark Wells

18:10

@Medix2 I'll say I've always disliked that the question is phrased that way, because that phrasing leads away from the correct answer (which is that it doesn't matter whether the "A" is capitalized).

And the question is pretty heavily cited, and every one of those citations repeats the misleading question for more eyes to see.

Medix2

@MarkWells I mean... The difference is "the Attack action" and "an attack"

But also at this point, changing the title isn't going to fix a lot of the citations

kviiri

As long as the answer clarifies the point, it's fine IMO.

Medix2

Which is why I hesitate to change the title to "What is the difference between "the Attack action" and "an attack"?" (Many citations would still have the previous title)

kviiri

@Medix2 I think the mistake might actually even be good to have in the title, since it's been repeated often-enough that people are going to ask about the difference between "Attack" and "attack" anyway.

Rubiksmoose

@Rubiksmoose rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/165670/…

Medix2

18:35

Can people without 10k+ rep see comments on their own deleted answers? (I assume they can)

Ah apparently there's a recently deleted section, somewhere

Someone_Evil

Do you mean the one in the mod tools?

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Nah something mentioned here

I was just unsure whether a comment on a deleted post would be accessible by the owner of the post. It seems like it is

And now I realize that was a math stack post... My search continues, though I'm mostly just finding questions about 10k+ members ...

V2Blast

19:10

ello ello

kviiri

@V2Blast sup

V2Blast

the ceiling

Rubiksmoose

19:26

@Medix2 I think so...

kviiri

@V2Blast ayyyye

nice one

Hot RPG Questions

20:25

3

Q: Am I correctly understanding how the Smite spells work?

As I understand the smite spells (searing smite, for example), they are pretty bad (at least at level 1-2). You have to use your action to cast them (so no attack this turn if you are not a fighter), keep your concentration until your next turn, and wait until you touch an enemy with your attack...

dnd-5e spells paladin

7

Q: What happens when Aid ends on a target who has suffered maximum hp loss?

The spell aid temporarily raises a target's hit points and maximum hit points by 5: Each target's hit point maximum and current hit points increase by 5 for the duration. A vampire's bite, for instance, causes necrotic damage with a rider that reduces the victim's maximum hit points: Th...

dnd-5e spells hit-points

Medix2

22:35

Is this question a duplicate of any of the things I've linked in comments? It's hard for me to tell if the OP is just unhappy with the answers while the questions are still the same. Any ideas?

Rubiksmoose

23:24

Nothing like trying to improve on one of your more controversial answers months after posting it and attracting more downvotes lol. Still stand by it though. I'm not even sure how it's controversial besides that it doesn't exactly match what seems to be peoples first intuition. [shrug]

Akixkisu

@Medix2 Link 1 and 4 both answer the question.

@Medix2 but technically neither is a dupe.

Rubiksmoose

That was kind of my quick take on the matter too

Someone_Evil

@Akixkisu I don't know if I just didn't notice you for a period or you had less activity, but I've been glad to see you back on the site. Oh, and congrats on hitting 10k, you now get to see all the spam we get :p

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil thanks, life gets busy, and then one has to prioritise, so less to no activity :)

@Rubiksmoose what answer?

Someone_Evil

23:42

@Akixkisu I believe they are grappling with this one (pun intended)

Akixkisu

Hm, that is such a good answer. But that is how downvote traction works.

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil hah! that's the one.

@Akixkisu Yup, that's how the game goes.

Akixkisu

Though to be consistent it seems more correct to write (30/2)x2−15=15

Compared to difficult terrain which is 30-15x2=0.

@Rubiksmoose Maybe it would visualise it for some people if you also added a line with encumberance to showcase the change after a character drops their heavy gear.

Transcript for