TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:35

user15026

So true. :P

Black Spike

true

But sometimes seems like the only route I can get ANY response ...

Carcer

01:10

hey you 4th edition knowing people, can anyone casually contradict my assertion that familiars in 4e don't possibly offer any hit point benefits?

BESW

There's a familiar that increases your healing.

But no, 4e was very jealous about its hit point progressions.

Carcer

yeah, I found the Familiar's Vitality thing in Heroes of the Feywild

but there wasn't anything else that seemed to be in that ballpark

BESW

4e just didn't want PCs to have significant HP differences, and what differences there were it wanted to be able to predict very accurately. That let them balance monster powers more predictably.

Carcer

fair enough

I will continue happily in the knowledge my answer is probably right

Hot RPG Questions

01:33

7

Q: How is Challenge Rating (CR) calculated for a mixed group of multiple monsters in regards to the Treasure Table?

I understand that encounters are balanced around exp thresholds in the DMG (e.g. https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/105360). With that said, there are loot tables in the DMG 136-139 that have "Challenge Rating" ranges for how loot should be distributed. I understand CR is not supposed to be summed...

Powerdork

@Carcer Not raw hit points, but there's a utility 6+ feat power, Shielding Familiar, that lets you sacrifice your (passive) familiar to take half damage from an attack. (It comes back after a short or long rest, like any destroyed familiar.)

Axoren

04:04

At Level 13 Rogue with Expertise in Thieves' Tools, Stealth, and Deception can always commit the highest form of XGE's Downtime Crime with 100% success.

This makes my job hard, because that means I need to pick up new theft rules for downtime or allow a really valuable money sink to exist.

I don't like the idea of just saying "No stealing"

nitsua60

@Axoren Thieves' guild? (Traditional money sink.)

There's a lot of bribes to be paid....

Axoren

I meant money faucet*, my bad

How do you mean to use the Thieves' guild in your example?

The party needs to bribe for what?

I probably need to come up with stealing rules that scale well into high-level campaigns.

Or just put a limit on how much wealth is "available" during downtime theft.

Because a free 2k GP every workweek is too much to get at no risk.

nitsua60

04:23

@Axoren Sorry--I meant it'd be a sink. You want to run a guild, there's expenses, there's carrying loafers, there's bribing officials...

MikeQ

Maybe instead of many many crimes (that add up to lots of cash), the thief is able to execute increasingly elaborate heists (for reputation)

nitsua60

How do you handle reputation?

That's the kicker: with higher ability/notoriety, should also come increased awareness.

Axoren

If they don't get caught, there's no association with that infamy and the character

nitsua60

Why not?

"Everyone knows the Jackal did it!"

Axoren

"Who is the Jackal?"

nitsua60

04:24

You start getting crimes ascribed to you that you didn't even pull.

MikeQ

Dunno if there's a mechanic for measuring reputation, but if the wizard has reached the ability to learn the arcane secrets of the universe, then the rogue has reached the ability to steal the emperor's hat, or break into Mordenkainen's vault, or steal a pirate ship. Doesn't need to have any mechanic consequences, just for narrative sake.

nitsua60

@Axoren Vetinari knows....

Axoren

The way I see it, if the character pulls off a flawless heist, makes nothing but successes on checks given, there's no way someone without magic or godly eagle eye can attribute the crime to them

nitsua60

@Axoren I should back up: what do you see as your job? Are you trying to stop a player from doing this? Are you trying to allow it and have it make sense? Are you the player and trying to do it yourself?

@Axoren The authorities don't have magic or divine connections?

Axoren

If they have no history committing crimes, there should be no way to stick a random crime onto someone who's given no reason to be suspected.

nitsua60

04:26

@Axoren Tell that to untold now-exonerated former prisoners?

Axoren

Getting a free 2k GP isn't engaging and it causes party wealth imbalance if they keep it to themselves.

MikeQ

They invest the money in an extradimensional off-shore bank, thereby preventing party loot imbalance

Axoren

I want the crime rolls to have at least a chance of failure, as well as a bit of suspense.

Maybe I should make a Heist deck?

Instead of calculating complications post-heist, I'll calculate them during heist.

nitsua60

@Axoren Then all you have to do is say that in this setting there's a higher degree of difficulty in committing these crimes than is implicated by XGtE. Why? I can think of a half-dozen reasons it could be.

Axoren

The main thing is I want these heists to be side-non-spotlight content.

Either they're done out-of-session, or they're doing quickly during downtime resolution, so that every player has time to state their case and what they're doing before the next campaign beat

There's plenty of great ways to handle Spotlight heists that get the whole party involved.

I need something that works quickly and well for downtime.

i.e. Snack Break in Town

@nitsua60 Increasing the DCs might work

MikeQ

04:34

@Axoren That's what I was suggesting. Ask the player what sort of heists or skullduggery they got into during their downtime. Not to play it out, but more like they're adding to their character backstory. Maybe they could leverage that later for plot purposes.

Axoren

@MikeQ Hmm, maybe.

That would need a bit of down-to-earthing, in case someone just decides they robbed Mask or something.

But I kind of depend on Downtime for party income.

MikeQ

If they propose an overly risky plan, you could ask for some check to determine the outcome.

There are also given bounds for possibility. No acrobatics checks to jump to the moon, etc.

Axoren

Of course, but a player is not always aware that what they think is reasonable is a moonshot.

I'd like to have a system that gives them some ballpark targets and if they want to go to space, it's gonna be Adventure, not downtime.

Joel Harmon

@Axoren At level 13, according to DMG, the characters are shaping the fate of nations, and perhaps the world. 2k/wk doesn't seem too bad on that scale, but that's a lot of weeks to steal the gold you could get from a level-appropriate dungeon.

@MikeQ There is an optional rule for Renown (DMG 22)

Axoren

@JoelHarmon I don't do gold piles for every encounter. Players get paid for their service, or they gain titles and land, or they acquire large winfalls in Vaults during the adventure. But for the most part, there aren't just loads of Vaults sitting around unless we're in Faerun.

nitsua60

04:42

This seems to me like another symptom of the breakdown in D&D's "transition to power-player" roots vs. today's "adventure until I'm L20" support. (I.e. lack of support for anything other than adventuring.) The characters' power levels at 13, say, are such that they can be shaping the fates of nations. But the current game doesn't help you do that at all, and the power levels are inherited from a game that basically forced that.

Axoren

At Level 13, characters are expected to retire because god damn has life been rough

nitsua60

I rant on that ^^ a little bit in my top answer ever: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/76079/23970

Axoren

Either that, or get a cushy General job.

Joel Harmon

@Axoren I mean you're doing this for half a year, without getting caught, before you can buy a high-end Very Rare item.

nitsua60

@Axoren If the game had rules for warbands, or armies, or settlements or kingdoms....

Joel Harmon

04:44

Or, you know, stroll in to a dragon's lair.

Axoren

@nitsua60 It doesn't need those for your characters to retire as Generals. It's just like Morrowind, where once you hit that quest state, they stand there in that one spot in new armor eternally

Joel Harmon

@Axoren You could always try and spin side quests back into the main plot.

nitsua60

(I mention settlement rules because I want to say that 3.5 or 4 had statblocks even for towns/cities. Which would give some indication of how impactful pulling a 2Kgp heist would be. How many times can that happen before status quo breaks down?)

@Axoren Except... then why have levels 14-20, if you want people to retire at 13?

Axoren

I do let that happen for big capers. Like when my players decided to rob a Dwarven Adamantine mine, but ended up there for like a couple of months

Joel Harmon

e.g. "Sitting on the lord's desk next to the key to his vault is a Macguffin Deed. Do you take it?"

Axoren

04:46

@nitsua60 I don't want people to retire, but that's generally when characters do

nitsua60

In any case, I'm out for the night. Be well, all!

Axoren

Players go until they're blue in the face

@nitsua60 Take care

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 There are optional rules that kinda cover some of this, but D&D is first and foremost a small-party combat system.

(as you well know, really)

Axoren

Also, @JoelHarmon I think you're trying to solve a not problem. The party can always decide to go rob a dragon. Then it's a small coordinated effort to get all their loot out of the lair and back to civilization, which is when I'd give them a few days of downtime to spend their share and do some side-stuff.

A thief can then use their downtime to case a noble's home and steal 2000 gp, which is about how much the whole party got from the dragon's hoard.

Joel Harmon

@Axoren In which case, the raw 2k gold from a con job can be preemptively deducted from the dungeon loot, if you like.

Axoren

04:52

@JoelHarmon But then it comes down to "Thief Sharing"

Should the Thief have to share?

It is obviously great teamwork if they do

But I don't like to enforce that

Joel Harmon

If the rogue is in a party, they've already decided that pooling resources is wiser than going it alone, so I'd say implicitly yes, they should share.

Otherwise, the next time they go down in combat, the party may decide it's better to loot the corpse for the shocking amount of gold, rather than help their friend.

Axoren

That's not a fair comparison, I feel.

Joel Harmon

It's really up to you and your play group to talk over.

Axoren

Because the Rogue is not denying them their shares when it comes to party effort. The Rogue is simply keeping something they worked solely for.

For the most part, everyone's comfortable with downtime rewards being player specific.

This is a talk we've had.

Joel Harmon

There are other classic options to deal with this, though, including nobles getting annoyed that someone keeps stealing from them and deciding to do something about it, directly or indirectly. Alternately, becoming a target for thieves yourself.

Axoren

04:56

However, I foresee when we get a few more levels, there's gonna be a BIG difference in how I have to handle it

And I don't really want to turn it off.

These are all things I can do in-story for dealing with the player's wealth imbalance.

I still have to deal with the fact that if other downtime activities aren't appealing, I want there to be something thiefy to do during downtime that is easy to adjudicate.

Every session, we have a good 15-minute break where people are doing downtime activities and submitting them.

For anything funky, I handle it manually

But for the most part, it's simply stuff, like doing odd jobs, selling expensive items, shopping, etc.

Akixkisu

05:47

@Axoren I'm a little confused about as why the rouge would gain 2k/week - could you break that down?

Axoren

@Akixkisu XGE's downtime rules for crime list a heist of 2k GP at a DC 25, making 3 rolls of that DC allowed you to pull a heist that successful

Akixkisu

@Axoren it caps at 1k.

Axoren

@Akixkisu Then it was a typo and I kept going with it.

1k GP is still a lot to get for free guaranteed.

Akixkisu

@Axoren why are all of these nobles okay with money leaving their table on the regular?

Axoren

You're all trying to make a story out of it, I'm trying to keep it as a downtime activity.

Akixkisu

05:51

Generally while your rogue doesn't fail their heist, that these heists are happening should have concsequences.

Axoren

I agree.

Akixkisu

One of those is that one of these days your rogue is making their check, and nobles moved away their wealth into different places.

Axoren

Okay, so you've just made the current system even worse. That doesn't help me, lol

Akixkisu

So they gather their information, and it turns out there is no 1k wealth to be reported.

How so?

Axoren

I want there to be at least something thiefy available as a downtime activity that isn't just "there's nothing for you to do, go learn basket weaving"

But the XGE Downtime activity falls off towards the level the party is reaching

Akixkisu

05:53

Nah, you can steal steal from less rich people or whatever wealth the nobles want to be at hand.

Axoren

Falling off as in becoming too successful as its written

Akixkisu

Just reduce it at your leisure.

Axoren

I see what you're saying, have wealth run out.

I already have a system for that.

Akixkisu

There are also plenty of other downtime activities that a rogue can do.

Axoren

However, the main problem is that there's no challenge, suspense, or risk of failure here

Of course, they and do downtime as a Locksmith, do assassination contracts

But thief work gets pulled off the table because they're too good at it? I'm not happy with that as an option

Akixkisu

05:55

Change the dc

Increase security.

Axoren

I'm worried that Changing the DC will lead to the Skyrim problem, where players never feel like they're getting better at anything.

At this point, I think I have an idea I can roll into it and adapt it

I'm gonna work on something those three aspects I mentioned: challenge, suspense, and risk of failure without having the Skyrim problem

Akixkisu

Would they auto a DC 30?

Axoren

At 13, they would auto a 25 and have a 25% chance at a 30.

This is without advantages

And it's probably going to involve random "events" happening during the heist

Akixkisu

Are you talking about a player in your campaign?

Axoren

A player, yeah

Akixkisu

05:57

Confused about the phrasing.

Axoren

They already have expertise in the skills that XGE's crime rules indicate

I'll probably use cards or a table, because at the end of the day, Snack Break should not be a mechanically heavy part of the session

And a player can up the difficulty by choosing to deal with more random complications. Risk --> reward.

Akixkisu

I thought the baseline was the issue.

That there is no chane of failure.

Axoren

Yeah, but escalating the DCs for the same rewards seems cheap

I'm not content with just saying "You've hit this point where you can easily succeed, so now I'll make it harder."

Akixkisu

I'm kind of confused about your line of thought, they have benefited from the 1k too much for a while, and a natural consequence of their activity adjusts the dc, like any dc, might be adjusted naturally.

Axoren

They haven't yet, but Reliable Talent has a HUGE impact on success, removing 50% off the base rate of failure.

It's such an iconic feature of the class that saying "You can't use it here" feels cheap.

Glazius

06:08

Sorry if I missed it, but what is everyone still spending money on?

Axoren

Crafting special-purpose magic items that aren't rolled for

And at the end of the day, downtime is supposed to be like the time we handle it during. Downtime is a snack where as a D&D session is a meal.

I just want a way to keep Downtime interesting for this player and the upcoming plateau I foresee, as well as the extra Oomph in wealth that comes from his upcoming stats

In another game with the same group, we recently made a Robe of Eyes out of Xanathar's Eyes using the downtime crafting rules. It made two of the players fairly poor, so they started dealing drugs as part-time work.

This is the kind of stuff money gets used for in our groups.

Hot RPG Questions

06:27

5

Q: If an artillerist-artificer has 2 protectors, does the temporary hp given by the protectors stack?

This is a somewhat loaded question that I could have stated more neutrally, but I didn't. Premise: the artillerist has a choice of 'cannons' to use. One of those choices is the protector which does the following: The cannon emits a burst of positive energy that grants itself and each creatur...

dnd-5e class-feature archetype artificer

MikeQ

In your games, is downtime played out at the table? Or handled in between sessions?

Medix2

"Every session, we have a good 15-minute break where people are doing downtime activities and submitting them." (link)

MikeQ

06:44

Jan 29 at 19:36, by MikeQ

Sorry no, unfortunately I can't read

Medix2

I mean, there's a good chunk of text above us, so you're good

Akixkisu

07:07

Does anybody else get XY vibes from this? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/165615/…

Hot RPG Questions

07:25

2

Q: Are creatures with the immune to poisoned condition immune to poison damage?

For example Flesh Golem is immune to the poisoned condition... would that make them immune to poison damage?

dnd-5e monsters conditions immunities poison

Medix2

@Akixkisu I don't know... I think the problem is that the players are able and allowed to do exactly what the GM is wishing they weren't doing.

I'm also unsure how well received your comments were; it's a bunch of split up questions that require terse answers which, at least for me, results in them coming across a bit aggressive/annoyed/snarky (or something not the best)

kviiri

08:04

Yeah, I get a vibe of "combat should be an option, but not a default option" or "...but not the only solution"

It's a hard message to get across with lots of DnD culture still being built around never trusting your GM.

Akixkisu

08:21

@Medix2 interesting - they are direct questions and each set of question depends on what the querent answers, how would you go about asking them?

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: When did familiars stop giving bonus hit points?

When I first started playing D&D, familiars used to give their Wizard bonus hit points equal to the familiar's own hp. For instance, if your familiar had 2 hp, you got a bonus 2 hp. However, if your familiar died or was killed, you lost double its hit points. At the time, Wizards had a d4, so lo...

dungeons-and-dragons wizard familiars hit-points

Medix2

@Akixkisu Oh if they had an order I suppose that's fine. It just seemed like a rapid-fire series of questions that the OP had to answer individually instead of all-at-once

SmokeDetector

09:45

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (261): When can you prepare a recently casted spell? by Mervin Julie on rpg.SE

Hot RPG Questions

10:19

3

Q: Where in 5e does it state that the Plane Shift spell's target plane has to be the plane that its tuning fork is attuned to?

Judging from previous editions, the Plane Shift spell's target plane and the plane its material components are attuned to both have to be the same plane. But, does it actually say that anywhere in this edition? I haven't been able to find it.

dnd-5e spells spell-components

nitsua60

13:02

But that's true of anyone who devotes themself to the downtime profession they're going to practice. Doubly so a class that has sacrificed a lot of other-class opportunity costs to get a feature called Expertise and a lot of skill slots. They're a skill-monkey, and the downtime rules as written revolve completely around skills.
IIRC there were stealth, sleight of hand, and deception rolls you mentioned? Has the rogue really maxxed both DEX and CHA? If so, they've given up a lot of other opportunities.

Someone_Evil

There should really be more to a heist than sneaking around. You need to do more than not be seen.

Would the skill challenges from 4e be worth looking at/adapting. It sounds like those would work really well for downtime activities

BESW

I really like Downtime in Bell Songs.

Everybody gets to pick one thing they do from the list of: Train (you and another character get +1 skill); Connect (you and another character talk about something important, get +1 bond); Feast (everyone restores all Rascality, describe the revelries you participate in); Lick (everyone loses all Wounds, describe how you take care of them and yourself); Build (add something to your Home or repair something in it); or Chronicle (record your adventures).

Played Puppy Day tonight. We adopted a snack-stealing fanihi (fruit bat), a hyperactive carabao (water buffalo), a glow-in-the-dark dragon, and a cactus with a severe underbite.

Sooo I have a free digital copy of SLAVA Prvo Izdanje that I won by accident (didn't intend to enter the contest, just amplify it). Anybody want? Must have a Twitter account to claim.

KorvinStarmast

15:44

@goodguy5 Pork, Okra, Beef

KorvinStarmast

15:56

@Axoren use complications

@nitsua60 doesn't Colville's pdf have some of that? I need to go and look ...

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast The stronghold & followers stuff is definitely in that theme, and I'm anticipating kingdoms & warfare being a nice completion.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 he's working on that, right?

nitsua60

Honestly: I like Colville's Strongholds & Followers, and it's not much that I wasn't already bringing as a 1e-/2e-accustomed player/gm.

@KorvinStarmast yup.

kingdoms-and-warfare.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 I guess I need to back the kick starter then ... oh, by the way, the blackmoor movie got delivered this week. :) All the old school twin cities guys made it as they feel that the Arneson group side has not gotten a fair narrative of how D&D grew. I am hoping that it is good ...

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast What do you mean, "delivered"? Is it something being made? Or that already exists?

KorvinStarmast

16:09

The KS began nearly a year ago. The DvD finally arrived at my house.

( I am also waiting for some wall maps of original Blackmoor stuff ...)

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Ahh, cool.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 called "secrets of blackmoor" and when I am done watching it, I can mail it to you if you are interested in watching it. (I'll figure out a return postage paid deal with USPS ... )

I am beginning to believe that my original Chivalry and Sorcery book has disappeared into the ether ... during a Navy move over 20 years ago

sad face been cleaning out attic and garage and such ... sigh ... but I still have all of my Conan the Barbarian books.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast That would be neat. I also wouldn't mind sending it back to you myself--return postage isn't necessary =)

I could even send you a prepaid envelope!

KorvinStarmast

16:43

@nitsua60 OK, I'll send it (probably media/book rate if USPS will let me) and you can return it. Give me a week or two to sit down and enjoy it (we have company this weekend, so that's out) and then I'll send it along.

nitsua60

17:04

@KorvinStarmast There's no rush. Honestly, it might be May before I get a chance to catch my breath, at this rate =\

(Public health officials are telling schools to be prepared for possible closure, and I'm a curriculum director....)

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Oh dear, Corona virus stuff?

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Yup. Not that it's likely we'd have to do that, but it's be irresponsible not to do what we can to prepare for that.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 oh, yeah, planning is a thing. Got it. We have contingency plans where I work for hurricanes, terror attacks, active shooters, and continuity of operations ... such is life

kviiri

18:10

Heh, I was reading some DnD 4e materials of mine and found another of those "monster stats before bounded accuracy" moments

Dispater hits you with his Smiting Rod! Take 2d8 + 10 damage.

(Well, okay, damages not scaling that much is not really the most antithetical thing to bounded accuracy, but still it's a clear contrast to what scales in 5e)

Hot RPG Questions

19:20

4

Q: How to best deal with cliques at the table during "downtime"?

How to best deal with cliques at the table during "downtime"? I know that it's natural that some players will develop stronger bonds with other players at an RPG table. This is a natural course of both in-game role-playing as well as talking out of character (OOC). However, I've come across a...

roleplaying group-dynamics problem-gm downtime

V2Blast

22:08

@nitsua60 Oof. Stay healthy.

nitsua60

22:58

@V2Blast That's... the hope. I'm scheduled to be in JFK and LHR next week, keeping a cloooose eye on things.

(I'm no more worried about the English countryside or even London than I am about rural New England or my dinner in Manhattan the other night. The airports, however....)

Carcer

23:31

@nitsua60 wash your hands and try not to french any other travellers, you'll be fine

@Someone_Evil jinx!

Someone_Evil

And I think you said it better (and got the magic links to work) so I deleted mine

Carcer

to be honest I'm kind of surprised I got the magic links to work first time

I was expecting to have to edit

Someone_Evil

23:57

What is the magic link for Board and Card games?

MikeQ

https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/

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