TRPG General Chat

7:02 PM

it's a long story. I had 4 players in the final part of our last campaign, and they decided to play a dwarf only campaign, or at least try it until their first death. When I reminded this other player that his dice were still at my house he reminded me how he wanted to play in my next campaign, starting level 1 for once. So I got him in, even if he likes elves a lot - not his ideal character but he could have worked with it.
And then everybody else dies on the same day and he still feels obliged to do the "until your first character dies" thing.

I also said that I would have liked to introduce new characters, unless the old one dies, only at certain points in the story.

I am a fan of a small set of characters being part of the story from the start to the and, but I'm also a fan of "let the dice fall where they fall"

NautArch

What level are they now/

Zachiel

2

NautArch

Just let folks change

if they know they're not enjoying the character and you've only progressed one level, just let them change.

heck, i'd even probably allow that through level 3

Zachiel

Anyway, he's not the problem now. The guy who "let's summon an animal because I have no idea how this works and I want to see it" is. The guy who wants to use every new consumable they find and who uses scrolls and potions before using their own spells loudly bickering with the guy who wants to sell everything to buy durable items earlier also is.

But I think that there's underlying problems.

1) they are used to "combat as sport"

2) they are used to having big HP pools and to hit often, which does not happen at the low levels

3) they do not think in advance about how to win while taking less damage

4) they are wildly uncoordinated, sometimes to irk each other

Yuuki

Sounds like a group I'd fudge a lot of rolls with.

NautArch

7:09 PM

WHy not start at higher levels to avoid that. I don't know PF, but 5e has that issue at low levels and if you've got experienced players, I personally don't think it's necessary to start there.

They feel more like training wheels for folks learning how to play.

Zachiel

@NautArch Because, as usual, I'm playing an official adventure, and I will play it by the book.

NautArch

But if they want combat as sport, and you're not providing that, you'll need to make an adjustment (or they will.)

Zachiel

@NautArch I don't think they even know what it means, but it is what D&D 4e provided.

NautArch

@Zachiel I'm sorry, but if you're going to put a hard line in the sand and be unwilling improvise/compromise, then I'm not sure there's a solution.

Zachiel

The funny part is that once they're out of this in-game day, they will most probably steamroll everything again

MikeQ

7:11 PM

I mean... if I told my DM that I was unhappy with my current character, but they insisted "Nuh uh you gotta play them until they die," then yeah, I'm going to be grumpy and will put my character in progressively dangerous situations. And if that's too much trouble then I will leave.

The in-game story and internal consistency of fiction should never override the players' enjoyment of the game.

6

Zachiel

@MikeQ It's more like "yeah I will keep playing it, but I will put him into unnecessary risks so that all can see that dwarves are stupid." - or something like that. But again, that's not the biggest problem, I started with that because I wanted to sort it out first. The player has been laughing and being funny during all of this.

@MikeQ Maybe I should find players who value internal consistency as much as I'd like it.

NautArch

@Zachiel Or be willing to compromise a bit (as should they.)

But everyone having fun at the table is more important than literally everything else.

Zachiel

Right now, I'm playing this campaign because they asked me and because I didn't want to let the group die

GcL

@Zachiel Sounds like they're enjoying it. What do you think it might take for you to enjoy it as well?

MikeQ

Sometimes people joke and laugh because they're uncomfortable.

GcL

7:17 PM

You'd have to ask them.

Zachiel

people using their characters more like characters and less like pawns, I think. The kind of things I see in play by forum games. Not people being a priest of torag and healing themselves before healing the weaponsmith that was about to die.
People being paladins and making me see that they are, rather than being just another generic warrior. People putting some thoughts about why their character acts the way they act. And in three groups I'm in, I fell like there's just two people who do that, and I'm not among those.

MikeQ

Well, it is a Pathfinder campaign. How combat-focused is it, versus social/roleplay/intrigue? How often do the characters face imminent death?

As a player, it's often difficult to invest in roleplaying a character if it seems really likely that the character could die at any moment.

GcL

@Zachiel That seems like it's putting a lot on the internal states and behaviors of others. Maybe this group of players in this game system isn't a good match for the gaming situation you find fun?

Carcer

horse speed

GcL

@Carcer Is that a duck sized horse or a horse sized duck?

NautArch

7:22 PM

My tables talks a lot about "more roleplay", but in the end, we're a combat table.

Carcer

@GcL the beauty of it is that in context it doesn't matter, they go at the same speed

oh wait no ducks can fly

a horse-sized duck is faster than a duck-sized horse

NautArch

@Carcer and they float - just like witches.

goodguy5

Because they're made of wood?

GcL

@NautArch I give out a lot of rewards for non-combat solutions. Like NPCs that come back around to help with situations when it is going to be unavoidably combat heavy and that's the plan.

MikeQ

@Zachiel Another way to motivate player-character investment is to give them more plot hooks that tie their characters to the ongoing plot, so that they seem less like disposable adventurers, and more like they're important characters in an ongoing story

NautArch

7:25 PM

@GcL I'd like to see more of that at mine, but I don't think it's in the cards. It's really pretty much XP for combat and purely by the book. Kinda a bummer, but we have fun so I'm not complaining.

@MikeQ @Zachiel THIS! Investing in your players stories and not just the story can make a huge difference.

GcL

@NautArch Are a lot of the combats player initiated?

NautArch

Although I have tried to do that at times and it's just ....meh.

@GcL No. We had an opportunity to 'initiate', but it wasn't one that I wanted to start up. My new character was new to the group and while some in the group were trying to get us down a evil-ish path I was not having it and did what I could in-game to prevent.

MikeQ

@NautArch It has to be discussed and implemented per player. Some players may be fine playing a disconnected adventurer, whereas others need the story to focus on them sometimes in order for them to invest in return. It may also mean stripping down your own story and NPC intrigue, to make room for the PC plotlines.

NautArch

DM had a 'standard' encounter that then started after it seemed clear we weren't going to go murderhobo on the crew.

@MikeQ and is it the disconnected adventurers that are the problem?

GcL

@NautArch If the DM is just throwing combats at you, then you've got to take it up with them.

Zachiel

7:29 PM

@MikeQ I guess there will be a lot of combat in this one, but maybe because I'm used to play by chat games, I think it still can be done with some flavor. Like the paladin dashing in to save his comrade, not "I will let you die because you did a stupid thing by going in"

NautArch

@GcL Nah, it's just the group. I love combat, so I'm generally okay with it. I'd prefer getting XP for non-combat encounters, too (or even inspiration) but that just rarely happens.

THe combat is fun, and we like it, so it's totally fine.

MikeQ

@Zachiel There's basically no way to enforce flavorful narration. You can encourage it and demonstrate it via your own narration, but that's basically the extent of your control as GM. Players will narrate in whatever ways they feel comfortable.

Zachiel

@MikeQ Well, currently they're fighting for their own life and for the safety of their own town, I would guess that's a big enough motivation (if temporary) but since the characters have been rushed after the TPK there's not much backstory behind them.

MikeQ

See this question, it sounds like what you're describing, unless I've misunderstood

GcL

@Zachiel "Here's a piece of paper with some references for dice rolls. You should care about this." is a hard sell.

Zachiel

7:32 PM

@MikeQ Oh, yes, that's why I was talking about "maybe I should play with people who like it" instead of "maybe I should try to force/encourage it in my current players" ;)

@GcL That's why I tried "roll characters you like, don't worry too much about firepower" and I got an alchemist with 21 Int and 8 HP at level two...

At least he's good at staying back

Not like the paladin who said "I'm one square too far to be able to move and attack, so I will just do something else this turn" and DOES NOT MAKE A 5-ft. STEP TOWARDS THEIR INTENDED TARGET >_>

And they were good at managing tactical positions in D&D 4e.

What's happening?

NautArch

@Zachiel Maybe pathfinder isn't right for them?

Zachiel

@NautArch He's the one who has been playing a lot of Pathfinder before!

I am baffled

GcL

Gotta meet people where they are.

Zachiel

I do not know what to think.

Maybe the TPK demoralized them?

MikeQ

Regarding the new player who keeps consuming consumables too quickly, maybe they're just unaccustomed to the resource management economy of pathfinder?

Zachiel

7:37 PM

That's the same experienced player

GcL

Don't expect them to play characters as you'd like them or want them to be played? Roll with it or find a different game to play.

@Zachiel You'd have to ask.

NautArch

TPKs are a big deal.

MikeQ

Hmm. Odd. Definitely worth discussing with the group then. If these items are intended as backup resources, then say so explicitly, because their behavior indicates they don't quite understand that.

Zachiel

@MikeQ I also guess he does that to go against the alchemist player, who's a hoarder.

I mean, I understand the alchemist. I'm usually the hoarder in the games where I'm the player.
If 10% of the resources are supposed to be spent in consumables, it's 10% more gold to buy non-consumables to me. And then he says "I have no idea how much this costs, let's keep it until we find out" and another player says "but it looks like a good tactic to use it" and suddenly they argue and the paladin goes "let's use it. You don't know how much it costs? then you don't know how much you lost."

And the alchemist cringes every time the paladin uses a potion instead of a scroll - but the situation is so dire that they probably will end all of their scrolls and potions anyway and that's why there's lots of it.

NautArch

I pretty much hoarded a couple of big-deal magic consummables for out of game years so that I'd have them for the final battle. Wish I'd held onto one more, but I used it in another very big boss fight.

GcL

7:45 PM

@NautArch My last group of players finished a campaign with more than 20 healing potions and a dozen spell scrolls. I say smoke em if you got em.

NautArch

@GcL Definitely feeling more of that now.

BUt it was fun for the final battle of the campaign to drink a potion of storm giant strength and put the oil of sharpness on my +3 glaive.

I also tended to conserve my spell slots a lot and often had unused ones at end of day.

I"m trying to do less of that now, but of course in my last battle it just didn't make a lot of sense for me to be casting stuff.

Zachiel

Maybe I should play a game that doesn't need consumables

MikeQ

In the last high-level PF campaign, we reached the endgame with a huge list of powerful scrolls and consumables that we never used (or at least, whenever someone suggested we use an item, there was disagreement). We spent the next hour super-buffing ourselves with everything. The GM didn't like that, so the BBEG hit us with a *mages disjunction* to destroy all the buffs (before initiative), and then TPK'd us within 1 round.

And that's why you don't hoard items in a PF campaign.

GcL

@MikeQ I would probably point that out the DM and not play again with them.

NautArch

Yeah, i'd be pretty pissed.

Your party opted to not use stuff until they felt it really mattered. And then it was taken away and death.

GcL

7:49 PM

Punishing players preparation is a pretty big red flag for me.

Yuuki

1-round TPK at the final boss seems like a much bigger red flag.

GcL

That is another one, yeah.

Yuuki

That's a table-ender, in my opinion.

NautArch

@Yuuki You'd throw out your table just because of that? Maybe you just never liked the furniture.

Zachiel

@Yuuki I wish I was able to build 1-round TPK bosses (buy which I mean that I would then proceed to play less lethal bosses), instead I tend to make very one-shottable bosses.

NautArch

7:52 PM

@Zachiel one of my finest moments as a player was killing off a kraken in one round.

MikeQ

For a well-balanced game, restraint is important. It's actually really easy to build a 1-round TPK encounter, since the GM knows everything and can control the world at a whim.

Zachiel

@NautArch one of my best moments as a DM was when the tier 4 swashbucler killed a 280 HP golem in one round and then, next week, the alchemist player (a different alchemist and a different player) was all "what do you mean the swashbuckler isn't built with Pat of War?"

NautArch

@Zachiel I....don't know what that means :(

Zachiel

@MikeQ Ah ok, no I can't control the world as a whim because I limit myself to the characters that the adventure provides, aven if I sometimes change their archetypes and sometimes classes around.

MikeQ

The big problem of a 1-round TPK is that it's anticlimactic, and doesn't give the players a chance to engage with the gameplay. It's basically a cutscene. It feels unearned.

Zachiel

7:55 PM

@NautArch context: Path of War is a third party book with powerful options, and the alchemist player was under the impression that core characters could not be as powerful if they tried.

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: What is the AC of a Warforged Druid when Wild Shaped?

When a Warforged Druid uses Wild Shape, considering I'll be using Incorporated Armor, does this influence Wild Shape's Armor Class? Will the AC be based on the Warforged(E:RftLW, 35) or the Animal? (Or both?)

NautArch

@Zachiel ah

Zachiel

@NautArch maybe it's because one of the players took the most powerful class from Path of War (which is basically Tome of Balttle if you're familiar with official 3.5e books) and thinks that having good AoEs infinite times per day is broken. (Yet it is true that I have problems fighting against that character and he could probably solo the whole adventure)

I mean, 46 AC and decent touch AC, +30 Will saves, can use Will saves for targeted effect that would hit other saves, one extra standard action per turn, teleporting around the battlefield, dealing force or profane damage, flying, slowly healing himself to full after every encounter, a free 150 HP cure every 3 rounds...

MikeQ

Sounds like a 1-person equivalent of a tier 4 party. Are they an adventurer voltron?

Zachiel

Can apply either true sight or see invisibility + 50% miss chance to himself and the whole party (not at once)

There's a reason core pathfinder has no feats to use Dex instead of Str for weapon damage. There's also apparently a reason why all nauseating effects have Fort saves (to which undead are immune, while they aren't immune to Will saves.

I like path of war, but I'm more like "saves? They will pass them. I will just go more damage"

That's why I'm playing a 3.5e cleric who only self-buffs, and it's apparently weaker than a barbarian, damage-wise...

MikeQ

8:08 PM

@GcL As it should be. This GM and I already had clashing styles before this. I no longer play in this person's D&D/PF games.

Zachiel

@MikeQ As people tell me it is not. People I trust.

But I probably don't have enough manuals unlocked to make it truly so.

Or maybe I'm against using the dirtiest tricks to make it so (like being immune to your own antimagic field)

MikeQ

Are you referring to path of war stuff? I was responding to @GcL 's comment about punishing player preparation.

Yuuki

> Legendary Anti-Resistance. Three times per day, if the target of a spell, ability, attack made by this creature succeeds on a saving throw, it fails instead.

Zachiel

@MikeQ oh whops, no I was talking about barbarians doing more damage than clerics ^^' My fault!

MikeQ

@Zachiel That makes more sense lol. I've never built a clericzilla, but supposedly they really shine in martial combat at late late levels.

Yuuki

8:15 PM

Can you use your Turn Undead to fuel divine metamagic?

I can't remember if that's core for min-maxing Cleric or not.

Probably is.

Zachiel

@MikeQ I'm level 20 and it still does not shine.

@Yuuki It is, but we don't have nightsticks, so I can persist at most 2 spells pre-epic

I have chosen to go just one spell pre-epic, catching up later, and it's greater visage of the deity for a +4 to str, con, wis and cha.

this allows me, together with the animal domain that gives me shapechange, to rival a barbarian's strength, but if I don't want to be dispelled by everybody and their grandma, I'm going to end up with just a few fighter levels, and I have no access to domains that grant me useful feats, and I have no access to either a way to turn my attacks into touch attacks, nor to knowledge devotion.

People who played a quickened spell version of it are having a better time but I want to have my buffs up all day long.

Yuuki

8:32 PM

I don't recall shapechanging being part of a cleric build.

Zachiel

@Yuuki Well it is good. More strength without spending levelup ability points on it. Worth more than a feat I guess.

I'm lookng at the internet now and...

paizo.com/threads/rzs2mg16?I-want-to-learn-about-CoDzilla#8

It looks like it's just persistent divine power and righteous might? That's it?

How is that anything-zilla at all?

> Divine Favor (Quickened), and either Divine Power or Righteous Might. Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) is used if you want to make it extreme, and really make the Fighter redundant.

This is from the same thread but... ok, you still have spellcasting, you are versatile, but you're no uberchager of any quality. you're not better than a fighter because, you know, a fighter has a ton of feats that you, as a cleric, don't have.

MikeQ

From what the 3.5 minmaxers have said, the theory is that each powerful prepared spell is worth 1-2 fighter feats, so it balances out, or something

Yuuki

Are you pure Cleric with no prestige classes?

NeutralTax

Can anyone think of anything more terrifying than carsized insects

MikeQ

@NeutralTax Brain aneurysms?

Zachiel

8:45 PM

@Yuuki yes. I wanted Hierophant to get some spells but consensus of the DM staff is that it's not the right flavor for a fighter-type cleric, and the game I'm in cares deeply for this sort of things.

NeutralTax

Those are pretty bad.

Yuuki

@NeutralTax Insect-sized cars.

Imagine tiny bits of metal flying at your feet at 80 mph.

Zachiel

The idea is to find any cleric PrC that they are ok with and that gives me +2 caster level, add that feat that gives me +1 caster level for each non-cleric level (up to 4) and be a cleric 22, fighter 4, exotic weapon master 1.
I have 4 or 5 feats left after taking power attack, PrC prerequisite competence and the divine metamagic package... and they might be two metamagic feats to go into epic improved metamagic (all metamagic costs -1, min 1), or one extra turning, ancd then maybe somatic weaponry (but I'm trying not to) and then I have no idea of how many combat feat I really need to be e…

NeutralTax

@Yuuki Yikes

its like less deadly bullets

What do you guys see in the picture?

Yuuki

A blue-black dress.

MikeQ

9:00 PM

Looks like Yanny and not Laurel

BESW

It's clearly a beautiful young woman.

Yuuki

@BESW Oh I've been meaning to ask since we talked about cold-brew coffee that one time, do you add anything to your cold-brew? Like sweeteners or (soy) milk?

NeutralTax

yeah but actually what do you guys see

Yuuki

@NeutralTax How Can I See Things If My Eyes Aren't Real?

NeutralTax

yeah but actually what do you guys see

MikeQ

9:03 PM

I see a computer screen with a chat room

BESW

@Yuuki I like any kind of coffee with (brown) sugar and (plant) milk.

GcL

@Yuuki How did we get back to Jaden Smith so quickly?

Yuuki

A bunch of German text.

GcL

@NeutralTax A poorly designed set of sheers.

NeutralTax

@Yuuki related

goodguy5

9:04 PM

@NeutralTax a mad duck

GcL

@Yuuki Probably a wanted poster. "Do you know the designer of this tool?" "Wanted very dead"

NeutralTax

BESW

@NeutralTax A reproduction of a famous Ambiguous Image type illusion from an 1892 issue of Fliegende Blätter, artist unattributed.

Yuuki

@BESW I feel like I need more sugar than is healthy for coffee to taste all right.

GcL

@Yuuki That might be a clue that you don't actually like coffee

Yuuki

9:06 PM

@GcL Well, I had figured that but I've been trying out different methods of making coffee to see if that changes things.

Because coffee definitely smells great.

GcL

@Yuuki Adding a little bit to mostly milk?

Decreasing the amount of milk over time.

Yuuki

One part coffee to 3/4 parts soy milk seemed pretty good to me.

I also caramelized my sugar.

MikeQ

Start with 3/4, then gradually reduce the proportion every time you have coffee?

Yuuki

Eh, I'm not so much looking for ways to adjust to drink black(er) coffee, just for ways to make coffee palatable.

So if I find a proportion I like and don't think is unhealthy (like way too much sugar), I'll just stick with that.

MikeQ

Hm. If you only like the scent, and like the taste, then maybe invest in some coffee-scented air fresheners, and drink tea instead

BESW

9:11 PM

@NeutralTax The responses you're getting indicate that most people here are familiar enough with the illusion that we can see either/both intended image by choice. Most illusions reach that point of saturation-through-familiarity, where neither image option is dominant for a familiar viewer.

Yuuki

Honestly, even though I know about the dress one and have seen induced versions (where they add some color swatches to "force" one of the color schemes), I still have trouble "choosing" one color pair or the other at a given time.

Rabbit/duck is easy though.

As is lamp/faces.

kviiri

How about spinning dancer?

Yuuki

Rotating dancer takes some work though.

But doable.

GcL

@kviiri Is it a tiny dancer or is it Tony Danza? It's always Tony Danza for me.

BESW

Oh yeah, the dress one is... less a classical optical illusion and more of a test to see if you've been trained or had immersive experience in the effect of lightning on color.

Yuuki

9:14 PM

Lightning on anything tends to result in fire and melting.

BESW

It's not a "can you see this ambiguity" test, it's a "can you understand this context" test.

Bah, autocorrect.

GcL

@Yuuki on the other hand, lighting off things tends to make them explode.

Zachiel

@GcL This reminds me the time an Italian mom ordered a Little Pony cake for her daughter and got a cake with a print of a Little Tony photo

Yuuki

9:40 PM

Shalvenay

11:32 PM

geeknative.com/70088/…

^^ D&D (looks like 5e?) char sheets for dyslexic folks

Carcer

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/164821/… wants punting to meta

Shalvenay

@Carcer done

Carcer

:+1:

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Q: Can Paladins ritual cast?

In the D&D5E Player's Handbook, the Paladin's description states that they "learned to draw on divine magic and cast spells as a cleric does." The cleric is capable of ritual casting, and thus it would seem as though the paladin should be capable of ritual casting, since the Paladin's spe...

dnd-5e class-feature paladin spellcasting rituals

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