TRPG General Chat

Axoren

12:57 AM

What makes gm-techniques questions not "opinion-based" enough to be a problem?

Shalvenay

@Axoren Good Subjective/Bad Subjective

Axoren

Okay, I guess I'm really having trouble identifying borderline Gad or Bood Subjective questions, because gm-techniques is obviously a Good Subjective to me

But I've been thinking about that issue in general

A bit over an hour ago, someone asked for input on how to build a system. That's more of a vague question rather than an opinion-based question if it was narrowed down to solid specifics.

But it was closed for opinion-based, rather than needing details and specifics

V2Blast

1:25 AM

@Medix2 To be fair I edited the beginning of that next message in and then edited it back out into its own message so I could expand on it :P

@Axoren Generally you shouldn't put too much stock in the single close reason displayed below the post - I think only the reason chosen by the majority (or a plurality?) of close-voters is displayed, even if the other close-voters chose a different reason. And sometimes people can tell there's some issue with a post, even if they're not sure of the best option from the default close reasons to use.

13

Q: How does the system determine which one close reason should be displayed on a closed question, given the close votes?

When voting to close a question, it's possible for users to vote for any close reason, even if others have voted for different reasons. However, in the end, once the question reaches five close votes for any reason, only one of those reasons can be displayed. How does the system determine which ...

BESW

1:47 AM

@NeutralTax There's a lot of kinds of editing, it's a fascinating field and you can often get good work no matter where you live because you can do a lot of the job via online sharing of documents.

I know people who make it their full-time profession, and others who do it as a side job.

Shalvenay

2:13 AM

hey there @BESW

BESW

[wave]

Miniman

@Axoren I think people are uncomfortable with the new wording of the "too broad" close reason.

It's no longer a statement about the question; instead, it's a request for a course of action.

Which I guess to me implies a promise of "if you do this your question will be reopened", which isn't necessarily true. Some questions (like "how do I write an RPG system") are just inherently too broad.

NeutralTax

2:47 AM

@BESW How do they do it as side job?

What type of positions are those

BESW

I'd recommend searching phrases like how to become an editor.

NeutralTax

yikes, if i don't think of that on my own, not sure if i'm really cut out to be an editor, or really anything in general

V2Blast

3:07 AM

@NeutralTax Heh, I've been considering getting into it as a career myself :)

Shalvenay

@BESW -- found an interesting (~15 mins) video, and another website, to share with you

(will send on Discord if you wish)

Shalvenay

3:32 AM

hey there @Powerdork

KorvinStarmast

Our cleric got stoned again, tonight ....

... this tim by a Gorgon

BESW

@Shalvenay Okay!

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast ooops

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay missed two saving throws in a row, and our only help is a retired PC who now and again does a 'sending' to see how things are going ... and we are on a mission to save this PC's son from being enslaved by a dragon! Yikes.

@NeutralTax it can do neat things. :)

nite all, must get up early, making my love breakfast to get her off to work on Valentine's day. Sweet dreams.

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8:38 AM

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8:55 AM

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9:11 AM

the description of Dungeon:

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STT LCU

9:25 AM

Morning folks. Can you find any obvious flaw in this character's class progression? Starts at level 5, up to level 20 (D&D 5e)
Ranger(Hunter) 5 > Ranger5/Rogue(Mastermind)5 > Ranger8/Rogue5 > Ranger8/Rogue9 > Ranger 11/Rogue9

Is there a different level progression that is more effective?

Miniman

@STTLCU What type of ranger?

STT LCU

9:40 AM

@Miniman archer

a sneaky archer

Miniman

10:22 AM

@STTLCU What subclass, I mean.

STT LCU

Ranger(Hunter) and then Rogue(Mastermind)

Miniman

Ah, ok. So you're going to level 11 ranger for Volley, and the rest is Rogue for Sneak Attack damage?

STT LCU

yes, not just Sneak attack though but also the bunch of other utilities like cunning action/master of tactics, evasion, etc

Carcer

a

stealth archer, you say?

STT LCU

yes, with a spy background, if that helps

I'm not looking for extreme optimization but rather avoiding basic/common pitfalls

kviiri

10:33 AM

I can't commend on Ranger/Rogue specifically, but it might end up being rather weak for a level 20 character with such heavy multiclassing.

STT LCU

@kviiri that's good feedback. What would make that combination weak at the highest levels?

kviiri

@STTLCU The fact that you have only level 11 in your main class.

You'll have low proficiency, for instance.

STT LCU

that's not how proficiency bonuses work while multiclassing, IIRC. you consider you character level total, not the classes separately

kviiri

Hm, was that so. I could be wrong and it'd make sense

Aye, you're right

Carcer

yeah, proficiency scales on character level, not class level

STT LCU

10:37 AM

so, except for proficiency that we got covered, what else is making that combination weak up top?

Carcer

honestly the biggest thing you're losing from the greater ranger levels is 4th/5th level spells

the rest of the features are underwhelming or things that you basically already get from the rogue levels

kviiri

Yeah, in the long run you'll lose level 4 and 5 spells and one ASI. I think the more immediate problem might be levels 6-10 when you won't unlock new ranger stuff while building up rogue levels

although sneak attack might compensate more than adequately at first

STT LCU

yes, my first iteration was for a Ranger 17/Rogue 3 to keep access to Swift Quiver, but I would probably get an overall better performance with a more reliable package overall

kviiri

But honestly, I'm speaking more from a heuristic POV: in general, multiclasses lose raw power but gain versatility. Rogue multiclasses are more likely to subvert this idea, though, thanks to the sneak attack synergizing well with many other classes

Generally it's worthwhile to also consider the cost of getting a feature late

Not sure how your games play out but we seldom got to even level 10 before campaign fatigue set in (or the game was intentionally canned)

STT LCU

I have no idea how long this campaign will last. Probably not much though

V2Blast

11:03 AM

@STTLCU Correct.

@kviiri Eh, Sneak Attack's actual damage is still dependent on what level you are in the class. You're still sacrificing power for versatility in that sense.

Carcer

@V2Blast I think the point is more that when you're optimising for combat damage a rogue dip is often just straight better than some amount of levels in your main class

V2Blast

ah, fair. depends on your main class and what levels you're giving up but yes

kviiri

@V2Blast Yeah, that's true of course. But it's still something that kicks in with the stuff you'll do in your base class, unlike eg. a Barbarian Sorcerer who will use their action either to blast someone with arcane fire or to hack someone into two with their axe, but not both :)

Carcer

because getting sneak attack is better than anything your other class levels could've given you

Miniman

11:16 AM

Honestly, I'd be more worried about the Ranger levels being underwhelming than the Rogue.

You want Extra Attack, obviously, and Colossus Slayer is nice, but between 5 and 11 of Ranger you're basically only getting the Ranger's thoroughly disappointing spellcasting.

STT LCU

11:59 AM

So maybe I should consider Ranger 5 and then just straight up rogue 15?

Carcer

12:34 PM

Yeah, that probably makes for a better stealth archer - pump your single target damage as much as you can

are you particularly wedded to mastermind, also?

STT LCU

no, but I like the help-at-range-as-bonus-action though

Our party is very small (lore bard, cavalier fighter, and me) and get a reliable source of advantage for the frontline fighter sounded nice

BESW

...does 5e not normally allow help at range?

STT LCU

no, not in combat at least

"Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

NautArch

Yeah, you need to be within 5'. That's the Master minds schtick.

Carcer

mm

I'd probably go scout over mastermind, the extra mobility is very useful for being able to stay at range

but if you envisage getting a lot of mileage out of bonus-action helps, mastermind might be worth it

keep in mind that competes with your other bonus action uses to dash or hide though

and that usefulness will decrease with level as the fighter gets more attacks

STT LCU

12:45 PM

yes, but the synergy with cavalier should reduce the need for me to hide in combat for sneak attacks or dash to escape. True that help only boosts the first attack, though

Axoren

1:37 PM

@Yuuki I just heard that Anthem still has their Christmas Event decorations up.

nitsua60

@STTLCU I ran the numbers on this a few years back and convinced myself that Fighter(Battle Master)/Rogue ended up dishing out more damage. Archery fighting style (which I assume your ranger would also take), precision dice, attacking from hiding, Sharpshooter, and sneak attack all synergize pretty nicely.

Axoren

I remember calculating the effective impact of Sharpshooter being +3ish average damage, worse if you have higher base damage without it.

-5 ends up being -25% average weapon damage in cases where you're not +5 from 95% accuracy or -5 from 5% accuracy.

For example, a Rogue at 20 with Sharpshooter would gain an effective 0 average damage from using Sharpshooter on every attack, simply because their base damage is 10d6+5.

kviiri

@Axoren My understanding of it says it's even worse than that

Axoren

@kviiri It can only be worse than that in specific cases.

kviiri

eg. if you need 11 or better to hit, that -5 means you need 16 or better to hit, meaning you lose half the hits and therefore half the damage (before accounting for the bonus on hits)

Axoren

1:52 PM

At the very least, you ignore non-total cover and don't take disadvantage at long range.

@kviiri You were already losing half of the hits before using Sharpshooter

Carcer

okay

Axoren

Your situation, you were losing 50% of your average hit damage. Then, you lost another 25% of your average hit damage.

kviiri

@Axoren How does that matter? We're comparing sharpshooter to non-sharpshooter, aren't we?

I don't see the point of comparing it to a hypothetical character who never misses.

Axoren

What do you mean how does that matter? Picking Sharpshooter is a decision in and of itself.

Not having disadvantage is a way to avoid an effective -3 penalty at long ranges

Avoiding 3/4 cover is like having a +2 or higher in certain situations you'd normally miss more.

These have an impact on certain cases where average DPR would be lower

kviiri

Okay, sorry, I meant the -5 penalty specifically.

Axoren

1:55 PM

The -5 penalty makes you miss 5 more times out of 20.

So, if you take 5/20 of your weapon's average damage roll, that's how much damage your remove from your Average DPR

kviiri

Yes, which in my example means losing 50% of the hits one would've scored otherwise.

Axoren

5/20 * weapon dice

You're looking at the average DPR in a case where you already have a 50% chance to hit

So you've already cut the average DPR in half

Now, when you deduct 5/20 * weapon dice, it reduces your already adjusted average DPR in half

kviiri

Yes, is there a problem with that? It's rare that a character is sure to hit.

Axoren

When really, the only thing Sharpshooter did was remove 25%, not 50%

Yes, but it is also rare to have an exactly 50% chance to hit

Assuming that you're targeting a 10 or 11 AC makes it harder to evaluate damage options across all situations

kviiri

Well ok, say you hit on a 12 or better, so 9/20. Sharpshooter's -5, when used, cuts that to 4/9. You lose ~56% of your normal damage output.

Axoren

1:59 PM

And if you hit on a 9, you lose less of your situational damage output.

Medix2

45

Q: Are features that allow −5 to attack to get +10 to damage mathematically sound?

Some class features, monster traits, and feats allow you to take a −5 to your attack roll in order to gain a +10 to your damage roll. At first glance this looks really good, but when will it deal more damage than not using it on average? For instance if you have a total attack bonus of +8 and yo...

dnd-5e feats class-feature statistics

Axoren

It's not normal you're assuming a specific situation.

kviiri

@Axoren What is the "specific" situation I'm assuming?

Axoren

That you hit on a 12.

Medix2

When to use such a feature is based on expected damage, hit chance, and (dis)advantage

kviiri

2:01 PM

@Axoren Yeah, but that's just for illustration for the point that you lose more than 25% of your hits when choosing to take the -5.

Medix2

Ceribia's answer in particular has tables explaining exactly when you should and shouldn't use a -5/+10

Axoren

To talk about the effect of Sharpshooter as an expected deduction rather than percent difference is more meaningful, because it does not change based on your needed to-hit.

kviiri

@Axoren I disagree, because the proportional effect on one's damage per round does change based on the target number and numbers that don't reflect that are unnecessarily obfuscated.

I think there is a place for additive probability modifiers but in the end-user side they sadly just often muddy the mathematical waters.

Axoren

@kviiri That's why I don't use the proportional effect. It's not useful at the build level

And it's STILL useful at the battle level

Medix2

I don't think there's much reason to apply math to sharpshooter without known average damage and an exact hit known hit rate

Axoren

2:08 PM

"This decision will result in me doing X less damage."

Rather than "This decision will result in me doing F(Enemy AC, X)% less damage."

Medix2

The numbers you will actually need to roll throughout a game in order to hit are not even close to being evenly distributed

nitsua60

@Axoren This is why I'm recommending precision dice. When you've got a half-dozen d10s that you can throw on to attack rolls per short rest... that's pretty impactful.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Often one would calculate it for the range of damage and AC possible (or some representation of those). See the table dumps for which Plane of Math was created

Axoren

Using the additive effective damage does not assume AC distributions

Since it does not, it is ALWAYS valid

kviiri

Eh. I don't follow that logic.

Medix2

2:10 PM

@Someone_Evil Yes except that never reflects play because the set of possible values aren't weighted according to how frequently they show up

kviiri

"It doesn't use a parameter that is needed to get the correct result, so it's always correct."

Axoren

Let's say that a Fighter does 1d10+5 damage, an average of 10.5 damage on a hit.

Someone_Evil

But the distribution of AC you meat will depend on Adventure/DM

Axoren

A -2 to hit is an effective -1ish damage.

Medix2

The fighter can crit so that average is technically wrong, but continue

Axoren

2:11 PM

Whatever your normal DPR is against a specific situation, getting another -2 is simply an -1 to your average DPR

@Medix2 Crits never disappear when you take a -1 to hit, so their damage never leaves the average DPR calculation

nitsua60

@Axoren (another -2 to hit, you mean?)

Medix2

False? For example, if you can only hit on a crit, a -2 to hit +X to damage will do nothing but increase your damage, (I think?)

Axoren

@nitsua60 To crits disappearing? Crits never disappear. Crits are your MINIMUM AVERAGE DPR

If you take a -20, your average DPR is exactly your critical damage/20

Medix2

Taking a -20 doesn't mean you only hit on a 20

nitsua60

@Axoren I don't know why you're shouting at me? I'm asking, in the message of yours that I replied to, what the -2 refers to. Are you talking about maluses to your hit roll?

Axoren

2:13 PM

@Medix2 That's true, the original statement I made is that this holds when you hit on between a 5 and a 15.

@nitsua60 Not shouting. Just emphasis and didn't want to hit Shift+8

Sorry

nitsua60

No worries.

Axoren

* = Capital 8

Medix2

Capital numbers exist and I won't stand for you disgracing then in this way (sarcasm, but they do exist, sorta)

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Well, when I have a nation called 8, I know what to name its capital. * 8^)

Someone_Evil

Btw, you can reply to specific messages by clicking on the arrow that appears on the right when you hover over a message. It makes it clearer what you are responding too, especially when there are multiple things being said/discussed

Axoren

2:15 PM

@Medix2 However, the cases between 5 and 15 on the d20 are the cases when the effect of penalties are at their WORST

nitsua60

@axoren Can I try and summarize what I'm understanding of your argument, to see if I'm following you?

Axoren

You're free to.

I definitely won't stop you.

@Someone_Evil It's so slow to context switch from using the versatile keyboard with two hands to using an object interaction to pull out my mouse.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren If we can have pieces of 8, we can have the paises of 8. (Spanish for country is paise and pirates sailed on the Spanish Main!)

Medix2

@Axoren Easy, become the object of hatred of pianists everywhere and spontaneously have three arms

Axoren

3 arms, but only 10 fingers across them

Never claimed to have 3 hands, or even any at all.

KorvinStarmast

2:18 PM

@Axoren and now we discover who Cthulu is disguising himself as ...

Axoren

I'm actually worried now how long nitsua60 has been silent

nitsua60

We're looking at two ways of considering damage calculations. On the one hand, we can calculate DPR using hit bonuses, roll distributions, and we therefore need to take into account ACs. On the other hand we can look at damage per hit, and factor hit bonuses/maluses onto those read as damage bonuses/maluses, thereby abstracting away the effect of ACs. (Outside of the truly extreme cases of only needing, say, lower than a 3 or higher than an 18 to hit.)

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren he may be typing ... see?

nitsua60

Is that how you're seeing it?

Axoren

@nitsua60 In a sense, this does abstract ACs away better than the %difference way of modeling it, and that's exactly the point behind it.

From this, we can calculate additive effects directly on the average DPR of any appropriate situation

KorvinStarmast

2:21 PM

@V2Blast our occasional salt marsh is beginning to lose momentum, particuarly as our BugBear Tempest cleric's player just got his with a RL double whammy at work. If you can visit with me in the back room ... later ... that would be cool. (Our next session is 24 Feb, as I am traveling this weekend)

nitsua60

Then let me walk you through the problem I'm having, and see if you can set me straight. Assume a fighter does 10.5 expected damage on a hit (ignoring crits).

By this analysis the -5/+10 of SS/GWM would argue, what: the -5 to hit "counts" as -2.5625 damage?

NautArch

Leaving theory, as someone who played a GWM character, I nearly always took the -5, but chose to offset it with Bless (and less so after I got a higher modifier magic weapon).

Axoren

@nitsua60 The -5 has the effect of removing 5 normal hits out of 20 possible outcomes.

nitsua60

Yes.

Axoren

So the effect of the -5 has a 25% * 10.5 effect. I'm going to assume that that's your -2.5 because I don't feel like pulling up the calculator.

nitsua60

2:25 PM

Right. But there's also +10 damage. So the "expected damage" by this method is now 10.5-2.625+10 = 17.875.

Axoren

If you calculate your DPR for the specific situation you are in, you can deduce that 2.5 as the effect of the -5.

Yes.

Wait

Okay, we missed a step

nitsua60

So doesn't this argue that it's always better to choose -5/+10? But we know that's not correct....

Axoren

We should be calculating the base damage of the weapon in the case where the -5 applies as not 10.5

But 20.5

Someone_Evil

That still leaves the expected damage as ~15, which means always use

Axoren

Let me revisit this real quick, there's a mistake in the argument definitely

For low base damage, the effect is positive.

However, the actual effect we came up with is wrong.

Because you're losing 5 opportunities to hit, which would normally be 10.5 damage each.

But you're gaining 10 damage on all the times you do hit

Medix2

2:28 PM

Don't you need to know how many of each there are then (your chance to hit)?

Axoren

There was a way around that

But I need to revisit my notes

nitsua60

@Axoren Makes more sense. So "standard" is 10.5, SS/GWM is something like 20.5- one-quarter of these BOOM hits, or 15ish. Still comes out to "always swing for the fences," which I'm pretty sure isn't right.

Medix2

Unless your average damage is ≤ 10/3 nah wait I messed that up

Axoren

I see, so if you calculate your average DPR without SS/GWM, you have X.
If you apply SS/GWM, you have (X - 2.5ish) + 10*(hits - 5)/20

I'm trying to remember how we got hits out of the formula

Someone_Evil

X is already a function of hits

Axoren

2:34 PM

Yeah, but expanding it to simplify the formula we have above means we can't handle the Attack Bonus penalty at an update level for the average DPR

The idea is that if you already know what your average DPR is and you gain or loss attack bonus, calculating an additive effect on your average DPR is ideal

But the thing that's screwing me up is we had something like that for the weapon damage

I've got like 3 notebooks on the discussion me and my group had over it

In any case, the total effect of the +10 is somewhere between +0 and +10 to average DPR based on hits.

So that's really the only thing that needs to be calculated on the fly based on AC

You if we calculate the tipping point for the formula above, the point at which the +10 counteracts the -2.5, is at 10 hits.

If using SS/GWM would result in a 50% chance to hit or more, your average DPR will go up.

Medix2

Which is false

Axoren

How is it false?

Medix2

When to use SS/GWM requires knowing your expected damage and not just your hit chance

Axoren

The formula above was for a 10.5 expected damage on hit

So, you're right that it's not a general formula

This is true for a Glaive, for example

goodguy5

we need a 3d function here

Medix2

2:41 PM

24

A: Are features that allow −5 to attack to get +10 to damage mathematically sound?

The maximum damage where it's a good trade off varies with the number you need to roll to hit a target The maximum damage per hit where a damage trade-off is viable can be calculated as Let \$P_1\$ = Percentage to hit before trade-off Let \$P_2\$ = Percentage to hit after trade-off ...

goodguy5

where z is expected damage

Axoren

4d if you count not having max stat

Medix2

In reality a 30% to hit after GWM/SS with 10.5 damage means you should use it

Wait I might have just read the chart wrong... Unsure if the damage totals take a +10 or not so your calculation might have been correct

Axoren

This chart is for Maximum damage

NautArch

derail: Just noticed druids shouldn't wear armor made of metal, but are proficient in medium armor. Of which only hide isn't metal. But is likely going to be less AC then choosing light armor.

Axoren

2:43 PM

I need to reread it because I was misreading it too

@NautArch Get Half-plate made out of Stone.

Medix2

Yes but you can just look at which numbers are ≥ 10.5

Axoren

Dwarves make it, I'm pretty sure

goodguy5

or dragonscale

or ironwood (not sure if that's a thing in 5e)

Someone_Evil

@NautArch One could also have special versions of medium armors made of non-metals (say bone). I think this was suggested in a dev tweet at some point?

Carcer

@Axoren dragonscale is also not metal

Axoren

2:45 PM

@Carcer That's true, but expensive.

Rocks are free.

Carcer

@Axoren [imperial bureaucracy intensifies]

Axoren

Survival Mantle is also made out of insect parts and gives you free protection from Corona.

It's Magical Half-plate

NautArch

@Someone_Evil ooh, that's a good idea. It just seems a bit unfair.

and not well planned (surprise surprise WoTC)

Axoren

Also, where are you guys finding Dragon Half-plate? That's gotta be rarer than Dragon Scale armor (very rare)

NautArch

I like the idea of using some sort of chitin they may have found

Someone_Evil

2:47 PM

@NautArch I think it falls into magic item territory a lot of a time

NautArch

@Someone_Evil There's a magical non-metal medium armor?

Axoren

@NautArch Survival Mantle

It's a magical Half-plate made out of bug

Medix2

Alternatively, just refluff one of the already existing armors since they're already horrible departures from what historically existed

NautArch

@Axoren is that homebrew? It didn't show up in the search.

Axoren

Volo's Guide, Page 81

Someone_Evil

2:49 PM

@NautArch I meant that "Special-bone breatplate" can be given/found as a reward in the space of magic item rewards

NautArch

yeah, i think the refluff of scale makes most sense.

@Someone_Evil we're starting at level 4, so I'll just give it to her

Someone_Evil

If they're a moon druid, their own AC won't matter half the time anyway, so there's little harm

Axoren

@NautArch Survival Mantle is unlisted rarity, so it might not be best for low level magic armor, but that's all up to you. It has a HUGE defense against gas-based everything.

NautArch

@Someone_Evil and they are

Axoren

Dropping its Base protection would probably make it an uncommon

NautArch

2:51 PM

I think i'll just refluff scale mail to Chitin mail

Axoren

That'll cap them at AC 16, which is fairly standard for a druid.

Someone_Evil

I'd say that's high for a Druid. What is your standard based on?

Axoren

Most druids don't go all-in on Dex because they're either summoning loads of animals (Shepard), being loads of animals (Moon), casting loads of spells (Land), or raising lots of undead (Spores)

Carcer

@Axoren have you got a location for that I can triangulate on D&Dbeyond

Axoren

@Carcer I don't have Volo's on Beyond

It's Page 81 on Volo's

Someone_Evil

2:53 PM

Mind Flayer section

Axoren

@Someone_Evil I don't know how you can't end up with 14 in Dex using Point-buy or the standard array

It's just such a nice place to put that 14.

Carcer