TRPG General Chat

GcL

16:00

@Medix2 Yeah... had a brain fart. Sneak attack is just a mess of extra dice.. not doubling the existing dice... that's crit

illustro

You only add the dice once to the attack

Medix2

@GcL Or that Grave (maybe it was Death) Cleric feature that makes an opponent vulnerable to the next damage they take, it's so scary...

illustro

@Medix2 its the Grave clearic

*cleric

Turn an immunity into a vulnerability...

(but it only works on attacks)

Sneak Attack Crit against a vulnerable target

Someone_Evil

I don't think Path to the Grave does anything an immune target

illustro

@Someone_Evil "As an action, you choose one creature you can see within 30ft of you, cursing it until the end of your next turn. The next time you or an ally of yours hits the cursed creature with an attack, the creature has vulnerability to all of that attack's damage, and then the curse ends"

Someone_Evil

16:07

10

Q: How do Damage Immunity and Vulnerability work together?

Normally it's unlikely, if not impossible, for this to happen, however I have come across a combo that may cause an issue. If a character has resistance to Necrotic damage and is cursed with vulnerability, the damage is usually halved, then doubled, effectively rounding odd amounts of damage dow...

illustro

No exception for damage the creature is already an immunity for the creature

It's not possible for something to be both immune an vulnerable to damage (just from english)

it's an either or condition

Medix2

The game doesn't care about that. And in fact the game explicitly calls out the case if being both resistant and vulnerable, which is similarly nonsensical by standard English

illustro

@Medix2 where?

Medix2

"Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage. "

14

Q: Do vulnerability and resistance cancel out?

For example, I am vulnerable to fire and have an item that gives resistance to fire. Do the two cancel each other out, or does one supercede the other?

dnd-5e vulnerability resistance

illustro

Doesn't mention immunity in that section

GcL

16:13

@Medix2 I just have them cancel to avoid the extra calculations.

Medix2

@illustro Ah that's true. But your argument about it being nonsensical isn't valid since having both resistance and vulnerability is possible/valid, despite similarly being nonsensical

GcL

@illustro That's a good question. Can you bestow a vulnerability on an immune target?

Xirema

@NeutralTax I gave it a bit of feedback.

illustro

@Medix2 rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/164010/…

Xirema

@NeutralTax TBH I'm surprised by the range of answers it got. It kind of seems like a lot of people just forgot that sleet storm exists, and that it's also a 3rd level spell.

(I say that because when I thought of the spell, I was certain it had to be 4th level, but then I actually looked it up and discovered it was only 3rd level...)

illustro

16:17

@Medix2 The nonsensicalness of resistance and vulnerability is an exception

you can't use that to say immunity vs vulnerability doesn't follow logical rules

Medix2

The reality is neither of us can use either since it simply isn't logical

Logically, neither combo should exist. But one does, so we can't conclude anything about the other

Someone_Evil

The rules reminder from XGtE might be worth looking at for that Q&A

illustro

@Medix2 yes they do. Just because there is a possible exception for a different feature doesn't mean that other non-exception cases don't follow logical rules

MikeQ

Subjective question: I'm putting together a 5E one shot for folks who are new to the system. Does 2nd seem fair, or should I stick to 1st? If I want to show off the system's strengths, what sort of challenges should I include?

Xirema

@MikeQ "2nd or 1st" what? Character Level?

Medix2

16:27

2nd what?

MikeQ

Yes, sorry. 2nd level. Figured it's low enough that the newbies don't have to consider too much, and can choose a martial class that doesn't have a subclass yet. Also a 2nd level character won't immediately drop to 0 hit points if they slip on a banana peel.

Medix2

I'd recommend first level, just because different classes get subclasses at levels 1/2/3 so 1 and 3 are probably the best options, so for new players, level 1

Ah, well, unless they're all playing martial characters

MikeQ

Hm, fair point. Although 1st level would mean some of the classes (artificer, paladin, ranger, etc) won't be very interesting to play. I suppose I could just remove them as options.

Medix2

Some of that might come down to what classes they want to play, and the complexity they're ready to take on. I always found it annoying that the most complex classes (casters) get even more complicated (subclasses) sooner than the less complex martial classes...

illustro

That damn "Feedback" popup about a question being a possible duplicate is the most annoying feature I've come across

Medix2

16:33

The one that says to edit your question to explain why it's not a dupe?

Xirema

@MikeQ Artificer would be fine, they do get their spellcasting at level 1.

illustro

I've selected "No" the linked question does not answer my question about 10 times now, yet every time I navigate to the question it asks me again

Medix2

That might be a cache issue or something else weird going on there. Seems unintended

illustro

It might be because I'm in work, and the work firewall is rejecting the setting of some type of cookie

Someone_Evil

@illustro Do you click to return or use the back feature (of your browser)?

illustro

16:35

However the site should keep a record of answers to questions like that before deciding to show it Again

@Someone_Evil Nope

I click to return

For example, I just clicked to the main page, to look at new questions, and from there, navigated back into my question...and the damn site asked me yet again

GcL

@illustro Would you like to try YouTube TV for free? how about now? how about... now? still no?

Medix2

@GcL Don't worry, you'll have at least infinite more options to express your opinion

MikeQ

@Medix2 I should mention, when I say "new" players, I mean new to D&D 5E. They've had like 10+ years each with 3.5/PF, if not with earlier editions.

illustro

@GcL Yes...wait...why are you still asking me...

GcL

Just wanted to by sure. Oh, while I've got you, how would you like to try YouTube TV ? /S

Medix2

16:40

@illustro Eventually the question will lose all meaning and you'll click yes

NeutralTax

@illustro I had that issue yesterday.

illustro

I'm out for the evening. Not going to return to the site while I keep seeing that question, it's just that goddamn annoying.

kviiri

@illustro This would be the case in normal English, but we're talking about rules texts where these terms have a meaning that's not the same as their plain English usage.

Eg you know how not all attacks are attacks in DnD 5e.

illustro

@kviiri 5e uses the plain English meaning of words unless they are defined elsewhere or a specific exception is provided for in the rules. It was one of the design principles of 5e (which are stored on a web.archive.org backup of the wizards D&D site when they were designing 5e and were kind enough to write about their design principles )

If there is a specific definition or exception provided for in the rules, then that will obviously take precedence

kviiri

@illustro Yes. And vulnerability, resistance and immunity are defined aren't they?

illustro

16:48

The effects of being vulnerable, resistant and immune to damage are

MikeQ

Anyhow, I'm going for a sandboxy design with an in-game time limit, so I can include a variety of challenges even though we won't do all of them, but the players can basically choose which they want to attempt. So far I have: social encounter, basic combat, combat with saving throws, traps, crossing obstacles, skill checks, and scrolls. Anything missing?

illustro

Any interaction between them isn't (iirc)

aside from the resistance vs vulnerability one

kviiri

That's plenty of definition in my books.

illustro

Not in mine, at least not in a game that is explicitly exception based

Anyhoo, I'm out

NeutralTax

@Xirema Thanks for your answer, would like to point out that this would affect bonus action spells and spells cast by a reaction. I didn't feel like I should edit that into the answer, as it would sort of change your interpretation. Do you think you could add a "not counting bonus action spells or reactions, "

Xirema

16:51

@NeutralTax Where exactly is the difference? counterspell can also apply to spells cast as a Bonus Action or Reaction.

Inb4 someone counterspells a counterspell intended to counterspell someone else's counterspell which was going to counterspell a counterspell that was going to counter the spell prestidigitation.

NeutralTax

@Xirema Just the total of 10 spells cast.

Xirema

@NeutralTax Oooh, yeah, alright. I'll revise that sentence.

NeutralTax

I would just add a "not including bonuses actions line." no need to redo the counting.

It's still an excellent answer

really appreciate it

Xirema

@NeutralTax I revised it to refer to the number of rounds instead, since I think that's a more fungible representation.

NeutralTax

Ok

Xirema

16:58

We'll see if someone posts or revises a better answer, since the fact that some people want to call it 6th or 7th level definitely suggest they're seeing something [important or negligible] I'm not.

NeutralTax

I edited out the section about war caster. Should I leave that on site and simply change it on my local doc?

Xirema

But revisiting sleet storm, it's surprising just how powerful it is. Shuts down concentration spells with a high degree of success, and enemy spellcasters probably won't be able to target you with spells in response due to the obscurement.

@NeutralTax Leave it on the site, change it in your document.

NeutralTax

ok i'll revert it

Xirema

General rule is that questions shouldn't be revised if the revision might invalidate answers.

user15026

OMG the Bus Strike is OOOOOVER. Buses resume service tomorrow, they're refunding January bus passes!

MikeQ

17:05

The strike has been bus-ted?

Xirema

@Ash Hopefully it succeeded. What were they striking over?

kviiri

@illustro The rule definition of vulnerabilities and resistance is not consistent with plain English though. See eg. Werewolves who in plain English'd be "vulnerable to silver" (as they're generally impervious to weaponry otherwise) but in DnD terminology is not vulnerable, just not immune to it.

user15026

@Xirema Better wages and better conditions, and it sounds like the Region agreed to give them both things!

Xirema

@Ash Yay!

user15026

they're putting in protective stuff on all buses, adding to the cameras, changing their discipline system, and wages are going to increase across the board.

user15026

17:07

So I am happy for them and also for me as a rider.

user15026

I am a little sad they're only refunding half of each January bus pass, but I get their reasoning, the strike was half a month.

Carcer

yeah, pro-rata refund seems fair in the circumstances.

I'm glad it's settled though and you can get back to normal

nitsua60

17:29

@MikeQ Then I think I'd go with 3. A couple more spell slots and everyone having some archetypal class features is nice.

Carcer

@nitsua60 [reads up] agree, I think people familiar with 3e should have no trouble grasping 3rd level characters in 5e

the hard part will be shedding edition baggage but that's the same no matter what level they're at

goodguy5

three is the sweet spot for new characters if the players are at all savvy.

2, for everyone else

NeutralTax

Any idea what percent of the questions relate to non dnd systems, and what percent of the questions are non 5e?

Rubiksmoose

@NeutralTax Be pretty easy to find out actually.

Medix2

Are you wanting to include duplicates and closed questions, what about deleted ones? A lot can be done using the search function and the autogenerated "number of questions your search resulted in" thingy

Rubiksmoose

17:39

I'm guessing 60%-70% for [dnd-5e] over the last 3 years

Medix2

IIRC 40% of all questions are dnd-5e

NeutralTax

I guess Id want to include see the results from both

Im kinda guessing 80% dnd related

Carcer

I mean there is an API you can query to find that out isn't there

NeutralTax

"find that out isn't there"?

Carcer

"There is an API you can query to find that out, isn't there?"

apologies for my minimalist approach to punctuation

NeutralTax

17:42

its fine

Sdjz

data.stackexchange.com

but it seems a bit overkill in this case, the search function with a few filters should work fine for counting question totals

NeutralTax

What language or system does it use? or rather where can i find documentation

goodguy5

I can't help but wonder what dnd 6e is going to be like

Sdjz

data.stackexchange.com/tutorial

It's SQL

Carcer

@goodguy5 surely the next edition will be D&D 5.5

MikeQ

17:45

@nitsua60 @Carcer Hm, also good points. Perhaps I should just ask the players what level they'd like. I kinda wanted to avoid 3rd level because that's when 2nd level spells kick in.

NeutralTax

I'm not expecting a new edition for a long time

MikeQ

@Carcer Definitely, I'll be very sure to clarify what things don't carry over from 3.X. When I started 5E, my DM didn't do that, and I kept assuming that certain mechanics worked like in previous editions, which led to a lot of confusion.

NeutralTax

So what's the biggest thing everyone would like tweaked in 5e

Carcer

@MikeQ it definitely took me a while to decouple much of my 3e knowledge, yeah

goodguy5

@Carcer nooo. that was just the one time

it might, however, be 5.75

Carcer

17:48

@goodguy5 no that's when Paizo does it

goodguy5

ah, I see.

Though, I wonder what Paizo's "5.75" would be like.

I'm trying to think of things that are finnicky in 5e that could be streamlined more, while simultaneously making things more broken at higher levels

Carcer

pretty much the same except that monk abilities would be limited based on how accurately the writer can throw knives?

NeutralTax

Wait so make the monk suck more?

doppelgreener

Questions that are D&D or Pathfinder or Starfinder: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/search?q=[*dnd*]%20or%20[dungeons-and-dragons]%20or%20[pathfinder*]%20or%20[starfinder] — That is 30,002 out of 38,037 questions, so about 75%

Carcer

@doppelgreener roughly what I would've expected

NeutralTax

17:51

It definitely doesn't feel like the non DND questions get answered as much. Granted I don't really deal with them, so I wouldn't know.

Carcer

@NeutralTax there's a combination of factors. D&D is far and away the most popular system we deal with, so there are lots of questions and also lots of people with the knowledge to answer those questions

the popularity of it also means that it's very often a newbie's first system and so they are more likely to have simple questions about the system, whereas the player distribution of most other system families probably trends towards people who have more general RPG experience and don't need to ask as many questions

and the questions they do ask are more complicated and resolving them isn't as simple as quoting a rule from the PHB that the querent hadn't noticed, or whatever

doppelgreener

Also, the overwhelming majority of our D&D questions are "what happens when these two mechanical pieces come into contact?" where the answer is not immediately clear. There's usually competing answers as to what the outcome is, and where the answers agree on the outcomes they might disagree on the reasons, and where the answers agree on the reasons they might disagree on the best way to explain it.

Carcer

the office lights have gone off because I've been sitting in a chair by myself for too long

time to go home

doppelgreener

yep

that's the "go home already" signal

Himitsu_no_Yami

@doppelgreener You're forgetting the ones that agree on the reasons but disagree on the outcome

doppelgreener

17:57

Good call

nitsua60

18:29

@NeutralTax I'm really disliking the proliferation of subclasses over the last year or two. It's making classes less like classes, because if I want a cleric I can choose Cleric or divine soul this or celestial patron that or just a paladin who uses their spell slots on spells rather than smites. But grumpy old grognards complaining about bloat six years into a D&D edition...? Not exactly new =\

Xirema

@nitsua60 I feel like it's a much more elegant solution to the problem that Prestige Classes tried to solve.

goodguy5

^

And I prefer it to the "mix and match" subclasses of pathfinder

Xirema

I will say though, for how long 5e has been out, the fact that our only new class is the Artificer is a bit lacking.

kviiri

@nitsua60 I can emphatize. When choice is limited, I don't feel like I must stress about finding the one thing that perfectly fits my concept.

nitsua60

@Xirema Many (incl. you, it seems) see it as an elegant solution to a problem; I'm saying I don't see an underlying problem and, rather, see a problem being caused.

Medix2

18:42

tbf, classes would by far be the hardest thing to make. And with only 1-3 subclasses it'd be FAR behind the rest

MikeQ

@Xirema WOTC has attempted a few revisions of the psion (mystic). Most other old-edition classes can likely be replicated as subclasses.

Medix2

Though... Looking at how many official and UA subclasses each class has it's kinda interesting how unequal it all is

nitsua60

@Xirema I'm not trying to criticize you--I'm not sure how that's coming across.

Xirema

@nitsua60 You're allowed to disagree with me, lol

At the very least it feels like there's a lot of unused design space left on the table still (Wisdom or Intelligence caster that casts like a Warlock? 1/3rd caster using Wisdom or Charisma?)

nitsua60

Since 4-class D&D there's been a pretty vocal contingent that thinks that classes should be distinct-feeling silos, and another pretty vocal contingent that wants much more optionality than the first. Thus has every edition warred!

Medix2

18:45

@xirema Those are, idk, very bland requirements. Just "a 1/3 charisma caster" is so unspecific. Might as well just say that in your campaign some other, already existing, 1/3 caster now uses Charisma

Xirema

@Medix2 It's more of a "why doesn't this exist yet?" Like a 1/3 Wisdom Barbarian seems like a no-brainer.

nitsua60

> The Ages come and pass, and the Wheel of Design turns and turns. In the 80s there were four classes, and Beginner D&D. It was not the first D&D, nor the last, but it was a Beginner D&D.

@Xirema I'm pretty sure I've played a Barbarian with a Wisdom score of 1/3--what are you talking about!?

(he he he)

JohnP

shout alert.

Xirema

It's like when you look at a consonant chart and realize that there's like 10% of the chart consisting of sounds that humans are perfectly capable of making with their mouths, but which no language in existence has ever made use of before.

JohnP

AAAAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHGHGHGHGHGHGHAGHASERASDFH #"@($&!@(#&$%!@(&(&!!!!!!!!!!

Medix2

18:46

Fus Roh Da?

JohnP

Ok. I feel better. slightly.

NeutralTax

@nitsua60 That's a sentence i have not heard for a long time

Medix2

@Xirema YUP

nitsua60

@Xirema (And to me a Barbarian casting anything makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth.)

> "If you want to hit things *and* cast spells, then you're an elf, dammit!

-me, ca. 1985

Medix2

Well... Some of that is that old research didn't care to make distinctions where they should have existed. So some of the sounds DO exist, there just aren't agreed upon symbols and when a language has, say, one uvular sound and nothing else near it, people used to just transcribe it as velar because it was easier and typographically possible

goodguy5

18:53

I don't know why I keep not learning this lesson:
Never allow a repairman into my home when my wife is around

Xirema

On the subject of subclasses, I had to turn down a homebrew subclass a player wanted to use because it was too weak.

goodguy5

@Xirema I made one, actually

lemme find it

Xirema

What was really stunning was that the subclass was full of features that were just like "deal an extra +X damage" features that didn't actually change how the barbarian plays, it just boosts their numbers, and it still came out kind of terrible.

Medix2

I did that too, Weaver Wizard: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/161806

goodguy5

myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=299818

Xirema

18:56

I had to point out that the official Path of the Storm Herald was basically just a better version of the same essential concept they were trying to play.

goodguy5

and in case anyone is stuck behind a firewall:

Barbarian - Rage Mage Primal Path
The Rage Mage taps into the primal magic that flows through the material plane and forces it to their will. In battle, they use this force to bring ruin to their foes.
Features at 3, 6, 10, and 14

Spellcasting
Starting at 3rd level, you can augment your martial abilities with the ability to cast spells.
These spells come from the Druid spell list. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability. This functions in all other ways like the Eldritch knight spellcasting ability

Xirema

It's just odd to see something like that. I'm used to players showing up with an overpowered homebrew and having to gently turn it down. This one I'm like "look, if it really speaks to you I'll let you play it, but this official subclass is just better in every conceivable way."

goodguy5

man, I haven't looked at that in a while

MikeQ

Ok so other than shuffling around mechanics for the sake of completion (e.g. "what if it worked exactly like warlock but cast spells with wisdom"), what other types of characters would fit the system that can't be done with existing classes?

goodguy5

healer monk

Xirema

19:03

@goodguy5 There's a very recently published UA for that...

goodguy5

so UA counts?

Xirema

@goodguy5 I'm assuming in context what we're looking for is something WotC hasn't tried to do, regardless of whether their attempts were successful or not.

goodguy5

okay (and I didn't know about the monk anyway)

JohnP

@goodguy5 Why is that?

Xirema

@MikeQ The issue I'm bumping up against while trying to ponder this is that most of the character archetypes I might consider playing that aren't possible with any specific class mostly just amount to multiclassing. So I'm guessing we need to disallow multiclassing for the purposes of our consideration?

MikeQ

19:08

@Xirema Not necessarily. I think with the 5E modular design, most multiclasses could be approximated by a subclass of class A that gets features similar to those of class B. I don't know if it would warrant a new class, like in older editions (like how ranger was like fighter+druid, and bard was like fighter+mage+thief)

Xirema

Otherwise pretty much any variant of "Magesword" is covered, whether you're going the low magic "Fighter but with a few support spells" of Eldritch Knight, midrange "even split between magic and melee" of the Hexblade/Battle Smith, or the "magic but knows how to swing a sword if they need to", a'la the Valor Bard or Bladesinger.

goodguy5

She always stresses me out with a bunch of questions and the endeavor always goes south.

Today a plumber was coming to replace a faucet and she kept texting me about how awful it was that we were without water. how long is it going to take? what are they doing?

A word I hate to use, but nagging.

and then I get all flustered and I'm asking the guy how long he's going to be and I'm sure they get flustered and it's a pain

MikeQ

You may be without water, but hey at least you have air and earth. Some people don't have access to those amenities and are instead forced to live in deep space.

Sometimes the planet goes missing, and they have to wait several years for the repairman to show up

goodguy5

I'll be sure to mention that to my wife

Yuuki

21:37

> Warlock: "Man, these summoning circles are so complicated and I don't even understand what they're saying. Like, what does this part in the middle say?"
> Patron: "'Get your butt over here.'"

Bradley Lindsey

22:50

Fumble stories?

Barbarian int 18 fumble nat 1 forgot how to hold axe then slipped out of his grip and hit the rogue for like 23 damage.

BESW

The Tale of The Dwarven Cleric, or I Poke Him: 101 Stupid RP Tricks, Volume One.

Dec 26 '12 at 12:06, 7 minutes total – 36 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jun 25 '13 at 19:03 by BESW

I haven't played in a system with that "natural 1" kind of fumble in ages.

Bradley Lindsey

23:38

I'll have to check it out.

But yeah crit pass and fails with possible multiple confirms is the only way I've ever played.

But then only have 1 or 2 pathfinder and maybe 4 or 5 3.5 sessions under my belt. All with the same group and never made it far into any of the campaigns.

The Tale of The Dwarven Cleric, or I Poke Him: 101 Stupid RP Tricks, Volume One.

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