TRPG General Chat

Black Spike

00:15

Kinda slow Rolemaster game last night. "A few months pass" ...
The locals are electing their next Despot, so we checked out a couple of the candidates.
I've been talked into stealing a prize White Bull, so my country-man's candidate can make a Drum!

Eternallord66

2

Q: Can the 7th-level spell Symbol be used multiple times to create a deadly trap?

I am wondering if it is possible to use the Symbol spell (PHB p. 280) used multiple times to create a deadly trap, where it deals damage twice per round. First of all, can the Death version of Symbol cause damage twice within the same round? From the wording it seems like it could trigger twice:...

Rephrased but still two questions?

ACuriousMind

Had a brilliant Symbaroum game this weekend: In that system, you gain "corruption" whenever you cast a spell, and if you exceed a certain threshold, you become permanently tainted by it. We're travelling with a caravan, and one of the NPCs was about to get killed by an attacking wolf-like creature. Our witch saved him with a spell, but if she rolled a 4 on the d4 for the corruption roll, she'd become tainted.

She rolled a 4.

So in her first real adventure, she sacrificed a part of her innocence to save someone she barely knew. Sometimes the dice just know what makes good drama.

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind cool!

We have a "corruption"/"taint" system in our Rolemaster. I got some when our paladin disarmed an Orc, and I picked up it's spear to poke it with! (I botched my Initiative roll, and the the orc was pretty-much dead by my turn! I still got the Taint! :( )

We've managed to avoid Taint from spells (partly because we bitched like hell at the GMs initial suggestion, and he toned it down somewhat!)

@ACuriousMind Is the Witch Permanently tainted? I cleansed mine

ACuriousMind

00:35

@BlackSpike Yes, the taint there is very much permanent. There are obscure ways to cleanse permantent corruption, but it'll be a long time before any of us has access to them.

And in particular, the taint is visible to those trained in looking for it - in particular inquisitor-like types who don't take kindly to such things

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind Ooooh! Yeah, sometimes the dice just know! :)

(One of our PCs is an Inquisitor!)

(Rolemaster/homebrew settign)

ACuriousMind

Additionally, any further spellcasting will lead faster to more permanent corruption - her threshold is 8 and now she starts at 2 instead of 0, every spell adds a d4 temporary corruption that fades at the end of a scene.

Black Spike

My botch last session was more mundane, but still adds some 'drama' - We spent ages finding/purchasing some so'westers, as we had a rough boat-ride ...
GM: Make a "row the boat and don't get too wet" roll (1-100 + skill)
Me: total: minus 60

@ACuriousMind ouch!

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike That sounds as if there might have been someone better to row that boat than your character!

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind we -all- had to row! Small boat. We got there ... but I'm soaked to the skin, and even more grumpy than usual ...

ACuriousMind

00:39

@BlackSpike And when your permanent corruption reaches the threshold, you're gone - death by becoming an evil NPC, so this is a rather lethal threat.

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind Eeeek!

ACuriousMind

The brief shocked silence when the 4 hit the table was pretty amazing

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind I bet! One of those "Oh ... you rolled -what-?? ... " moment

I don't know Symbaroum ... I hope the Player is OK with being ... kinda messed up and not wanting to cast any more spells ...

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike No worries, we all knew the lethality of the system going into it

Magic is very powerful, but also very dangerous

I think the DM realized how powerful after my cleric obliterated the undead 'boss' with two hits and the witch kept turning everything into harmless frogs :P

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind cool :) Our table tends to be less accepting of such things :( yes, we like good drama, a good story, with ups and downs ... but we also want to WIN

@ACuriousMind hahaha

<Oprah meme> you're a frog! and you're a frog! and you're a frog!

ACuriousMind

00:46

@BlackSpike That, only at the third 'frog' Oprah suddenly winces in pain as demonic forces mark her permanently :P

Black Spike

x0

ooops

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike We've all played plenty of heroic tales and are excited to try something more...limited. 'Gritty' is an overused descriptor but it's what we're going for.

Black Spike

I'm reprising an old "test" character (Healer).
Original was Exalted Healer. Exuberant about stealing people's injuries! Oooh, that looks nasty! Can I have that? <Transfer Wound>
Current: Same powers (transfer wounds to self), but hates doing it. But has a Vow. "Oh, bring me something intersting, at least! I've had 3 broken ribs already this week!"

@ACuriousMind I do prefer the 'lower' end of scales .. .something a bit dark, not the High Heroes

Both mine, and our current GM's, campaigns tend to have a "tag-line" of "How much are you willing to pay/risk?" :) "Yes, you can ... but at what cost?"

@ACuriousMind How is the Witch going to move forwards? Now they are Marked? What do the other PCs think of it?

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike We don't know because none of us can perceive corruption (yet)

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind I suppose that's good ... :) for now

ACuriousMind

01:00

All we know is she overexerted herself a bit while casting, but while it's known that that can cause corruption, it's not a surefire sign

Black Spike

We have "Magnus the Eye - Witch Smeller" as a PC ...

ACuriousMind

...he smells with his eye?

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind hehe ... He only has one eye. But he has a "second sense" that can detect Taint.

ACuriousMind

I just know that the eye/smell paradox would be a running joke at my tables

Black Spike

yup

We're generally too focused on not falling to his over-the-top proselytising ... he demands we attend his Church, "cleanse" our selves , CONFESS, etc

ACuriousMind

01:05

ah, that's my character in that aforementioned group :)

Black Spike

:)

ACuriousMind

I took an offer of liquor as an excuse for a lengthy lecture on the evils of excess in the eyes of the sun god

Black Spike

heh

ACuriousMind

They'd have kicked me out were it not for the protection my blessings provide to the campsite :P

Another "GM realized magic is really powerful" moment: GM: "You don't know when this terrible undead is going to appear again and hunt you down." - Me: "Oh, hey, I'm blessing this site so that no undead can enter it." - GM: "...right."

Black Spike

Our Setting has 2 main Religions ... "Pagan" (old-school, on the decline) and "One True God" ... OTG is split into many, many Factions ... and my Divine Healer reckons to speak directly, so ignore the Churches ...

(so get get called a Heretic by all sides!)

SmokeDetector

01:10

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (438): What spells could cure a stroke? by sharon william on rpg.SE

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike In Symbaroum, there were many different polytheistic religions until about 3 decades ago, when in a war against necromancers the sun god proved the most useful and his followers started gaining power and outlawing all religions recognizing other gods than the sun god.

But I'm a changeling - believed to be children of elves - too, so the folks following other religions don't trust me because I'm a priest of the sun god and the other folks don't trust me because I'm not human.

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind and there are no lingering remnants of previous Worship? a whole generation ago, surely that's enough time to convert an entire Culture to The New ways? ;P

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike No, there's plenty of it around! Just not in the open...

Black Spike

Magnus keeps chiding me for using pagan practices ... my people are newly-converted, and keep trying to justify Old Ways under the New Way :) I tell him that pagans are right, but in the wrong way ... we are all followers of the OTG ...

But he has all the Skill ranks in Theology, and I just have 'Novice'

@ACuriousMind Is this a long-term game?

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike Yes, it's supposed to be a long-running campaign, but we're in its beginnings.

Black Spike

01:20

@ACuriousMind cool! I do like to get invested in a game.

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike He's book-smart, you're street-smart ;)

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind I'd like to think so ... I'm just not that smart :P

(But we're good friends, OOC, so a lot is just banter :) )

And although he knows I have a healing vow, we've not tested how mean I can be with it ... I could cast my Major Heal spell ... or I could slap a band-aid on his shattered arm, and say i've fulfilled my duty! ...

We're still early in our game (Session 8). Once a week, we're hoping to hit 50+ Sessions, maybe double that. Depends how it goes

@ACuriousMind Changeling Priest? Trusted by none? That's a concept that's got legs :) Any idea where you're going with it?

ACuriousMind

01:35

@BlackSpike Currently he's mostly driven by a desire to know why the elves do this - why they place changelings among humans. He was the son of a noble house that sent him away to a small abbey far away when the changeling nature started to show, so he feels cheated out of his legacy.

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind Yeah, that must suck!

ACuriousMind

(the elves live in the dark forest Davokar north of the human lands, and all characters needed to have some motivation to explore the dark forest)

Black Spike

"Why the elves do things" ... there's a hiding to nothing! :D

ACuriousMind

Yeah, it's not something anyone thinks he'll be successful with, but the church is more than happy for their weird changeling follower dying while trying to find out.

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind Sounds like a win/win for the church: either get some kind of answer, or be rid of a troublesome Changeling!

ACuriousMind

01:42

Yes, precisely! That's why they let him go in the first place - usually novice priests are definitely not sent into the most dangerous part of the known world

Black Spike

(in our game, The Fae are BAD. The Enemy. We're not sure about Changelings ...)

@ACuriousMind All PCs must have a motivation "Explore the Forest" ? Good, good! As a GM, I approve this! "Get with the program!" :)

"I think my PC will go South"
"Sure. Bye, Roll a new PC that wants to go North!"

I run "Fates Worse than Death", a gritty neo-cyber-punk/gutterpunk based on Manhattan Island. Campaign Conceit #1 is "You stay on the Island". You can have a Long-Term goal of "leave Manhattan", but be aware that it is NOT going to happen! :)

ACuriousMind

@BlackSpike The setting is really very focused - south there is just land devastated by the war with the necromancers no one can survive in any more, and west and east are mountains and desert, so north is the only way to go unless you want to settle somewhere.

@BlackSpike Yeah, I like that - focused goals are important when you don't run something sandboxy

Alas, it's getting late here and I should really go to bed - fun talking to you, cya!

Black Spike

@ACuriousMind I like my players to have a level of freedom ... within bounds ... you got the Elevator Pitch: THIS is what the game is about ... get on board.

Yes, there can be a grey-area, pushing the envelope, challenging boundaries ... BUT ...

@ACuriousMind g'night

Hot RPG Questions

03:07

14

Q: How can I let my PCs create new spells in a balanced and fair way?

Assuming the DM is on board with the premise, are there resources that would provide some guidelines on how a PC may create a spell, and mechanics that should be considered for balancing and fairness purposes? How can I let my players develop new spells without breaking the game? Ideally the...

dnd-5e spells homebrew

8

Q: Which is better? Improved critical or extra damage die?

One of the players in my party wants to play a multiclass Barbarian/Fighter, and is on the fence regarding which Fighter archetype to choose. He is using a Greataxe (no dual-wielding). He wants to get the most DPR, and he is between the Champion and Brute (from UA). Due to RP reasons, he's not pi...

dnd-5e optimization fighter critical-hit

3

Q: Could Hold Person be cast as part of a speech?

So, as per the question already asks, my party is facing a more than deadly challenge due to some errors we made and I want my character to give a small speech in which, some part of it will include a hold person cast of the most powerful enemies. Would that be able to work RAW?

dnd-5e spellcasting

Hot RPG Questions

05:10

6

Q: Would a lich remember someone they knew in life?

I am working on a D&D campaign where one of my PC’s long lost elf father has become a lich and must be destroyed. Would the lich be able to remember the people they knew before becoming a lich?

dnd-5e monsters

The Oracle

05:47

0

Q: How should we deal with these multiple related questions about weapons used for Extra Attack/Two-Weapon Fighting?

There are a number of D&D 5e questions specifically asking about what weapons are used when making multiple attacks thanks to the Extra Attack feature, the Two-Weapon Fighting rule, or both: Can you attack with more than one weapon when using Extra Attack? Can you attack with different weapons ...

discussion specific-question duplicates dnd-5e

jgn

07:15

Out of the official sources for 5e rules, how are they ranked from most official to least official?

Mark Wells

08:06

@jgn Alphabetically.

Pierre Cathé

08:24

Morning folks

@jgn not sure there's such a ranking, do you have a problem where two sources contradict each other ?

If so I guess use your best GM's judgment ;)

jgn

@PierreCathé Well, it was raised in the comments of a question. Roll20 was mentioned, which obviously ins't official in any way, but the SRD and DNDBeyond were contradicting each other.

Pierre Cathé

@jgn That thing about the net ? In that case I'd just pick the one that's most convenient for my game and stick with it

jgn

08:40

@PierreCathé me too but it's not really beneficial to say "well at my table...", no one is going to tell their DM "a person on SE said that when they DM they let their players do it!!".

I know it's controversial, but I think people want an answer like "the rules say X" :P

Pierre Cathé

@jgn Well if you want to convince your GM and the rules aren't clear (or are just bad), then you need to make a case on how playing this way or that makes the game better

@jgn That's the answer I never want actually. I want an answer in the form "Your game will be best if you do X"

3

jgn

@PierreCathé True but I think that's still a far cry from "the rules say X" which is how most questions are resolved.

@PierreCathé Well those answers are allowed so long as they are in the form of "the rules say X and that is best" :P

Pierre Cathé

@jgn Damn that's harsh :'(

jgn

@PierreCathé You know how it be uwu

Pierre Cathé

I guess we haven't had the same experiences though, in some of the games i've played some rules just make everyone miserable, like "Cool idea ! But oh wait there's rule X" all the time, so we learned just to ditch those rules

Anyhow work is not going to do itself, have a good day everyone !

jgn

08:55

@PierreCathé Same for me, I just meant that on the site answers like "it would be cooler if you did X" are not very welcome, maybe they can slip by if there is no rules answer and you have significant personal experience to support the idea.

Good luck with your work!

V2Blast

@jgn In terms of formats, (the latest versions of) the physical books are always the ultimate rules source. The SRD is definitely not one:

10

Q: Is it fine to cite the SRD in answers even if WotC does not consider it an official rules source?

Based on a discussion on an answer. Jeremy Crawford has said: The sword of sharpness deals an extra 14 slashing damage when you roll a 20 on its attack roll. The SRD incorrectly says otherwise. Note that the SRD is not an official rules source for D&D. [Agree with the man or not, we have t...

discussion dnd-5e citations

Roll20's free compendium content is the SRD content, so it is similarly wrong where the two differ

DDB's compendium content should generally be accurate (it doesn't have the same technical limitations of certain fields only allowing certain types of data that, e.g., DDB's standalone item/monster listings do), but where it differs from the physical books (e.g. the Tools table), the physical books take precedence

Carcer

wot, no errata

V2Blast

(also, looks like the PHB compendium version on DDB does actually now include "Vehicles (land or water)" with asterisks in the subsequent columns and the note "* See the ”Mounts and Vehicles” section.", as the physical PHB does - it's only the basic rules compendium version of the table that's missing that row, although the basic rules PDF from WotC does contain that row.) I've asked on the Discord whether this discrepancy is intentional.)

V2Blast

09:32

@jgn: BTW, regarding the net, I don't know if the person who brought the "0 bludgeoning" discrepancy up on DDB's forums was you or someone else on RPG.SE or if it's just a coincidence (:P), but a DDB staff member confirms here that it is indeed a technical limitation:

> The damage is "-" as per the Player's Handbook and Basic Rules.

However, the underlying system we used to build weapons requires a quantity (that is set to zero).

Please consider this a display issue, where the zero should be read as equivalent to a dash.

If a net is added to a character sheet, even with a bonus to damage, it will still display as doing no damage.

jgn

@V2Blast It was me lol

doppelgreener

10:18

Fantasy Flight Games has laid off its tabletop RPG department

5

Joel Harmon

12:42

@jgn Of course, many systems feature the Rule of Cool: a rule stating the DM-equivalents can override any other rule if they think it would improve the game.

Carcer

13:08

"rule zero" is the common one for "the DM can do whatever they want"

my understanding of the "rule of cool" is "the rules don't support/actually forbid this but I'm going to let you do it because it's awesome"

goodguy5

Rule of Cool is a sort of passive usage of Rule Zero.

Carcer

so the one is a strict subset of the other

kviiri

13:23

@jgn Hehe, anecdotally that's not really unheard of :) some people have really grandiose expectations about strangers on the internet and their advice

ThePuzzlerThree

hi

kviiri

Hello

goodguy5

Morning, Puzzler. Did you get a chance to look over that question about Ront?

nitsua60

13:46

@kviiri New site motto? "Grandiose expectations about strangers on the internet!"

5

=)

KorvinStarmast

@jgn I'd suggest going PHB + errata first, all others subordinate to that.

goodguy5

14:05

I just had a great back-crack. I think I could smell which colors tasted like which letters for a second.

Gwideon

14:21

hello

kviiri

Hi

Gwideon

how is everyone?

kviiri

Casually thinking about leaving work because I'm not getting much done anymore

Gwideon

okay

goodguy5

@kviiri like for the day, or forever?

Eternallord66

14:46

My office is so quiet and everyone is upset. I may leave work early today.

Yuuki

Cheer everyone up with this:

True Facts: Mating Dance of the Ostrich

►

Eternallord66

@Yuuki That won't work. It's not a good day for most people here.

goodguy5

@Eternallord66 why?

Eternallord66

We found out a coworker died last night. She was a friend to a lot of people.

goodguy5

D:
Condolences

Eternallord66

15:02

Thanks. It's just bad and worse circumstances.

Anyway what does everyone know about the new book? I'm a little lost about it.

goodguy5

@Yuuki the pangolin/anteater one is even better

@Eternallord66 the essentials? or is there something else?

Medix2

@V2Blast I'm finding more questions that I'm not sure how they relate to your recent meta

Eternallord66

@goodguy5 Laeral Silverhands

There is another coming in March. Title to be announced January 9th. Both books are supposed to be released on March 17th according to Amazon. Silverhands is $29.99 and the other is $49.99

Someone_Evil

@Eternallord66 Silverhands doesn't appear to be a book as such: dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/…

kviiri

15:21

@goodguy5 the former, but of course the world might end suddenly making the latter also true

kviiri

15:38

Over six hours of daylight today, luxurious

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri Should only get better now

SmokeDetector

15:55

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (340): Can you throw a net without disadvantage using crossbow expert? by selena on rpg.SE

Medix2

If I have a question that received two upvotes and have now changed my mind on the actual answer, should I delete the answer and post a new one?

Sdjz

@Medix2 I'm confused, is this a self-answer?

Medix2

No I answered this question quoting certain Crawford tweets and then found contradicting/clarifying ones that go against that answer

Currently, I've updated my answer, completely reversing its stance. I'm just unsure whether it's alright to keep those 2 upvotes even though they went to a very different answer

I may just make two answers, one saying one thing and the other the other

Xirema

@Medix2 My general stance is that if you're reversing your stance on an issue, you should post a new answer, rather than revising the existing answer. Whether or not you should delete the old answer is up to you, with respect to whether you think it's wholly unsubstantiated, or just an alternate interpretation you no longer agree with.

Medix2

I think I'll go ahead and do that then, makes a lot of sense to me

Xirema

16:06

@Medix2 Only other thing I'll say is that, in my opinion, Designer Intent a'la Crawford Tweets should never headline an answer unless the question is "what did the designers intend?" (and those questions are usually off-topic here anyways...) It's okay to cite those tweets/claims if you've already answered the question and are in the (often RAW-adjacent) territory of "okay, but does it REALLY make sense to follow the RAW here...?" or are otherwise justifying your argument.

Medix2

Yeah the thing is I disagree with the RAW and so I'm left going to intent and then what I felt the intent was, was apparently incorrect

NERDmaster

hello my loyal subjects

:)

Medix2

[begins disloyalty]

Yuuki

@Medix2 Personally, I'd advise making a new answer.

One of the guidelines to editing is that users should not make edits that radically change the intent of the post. This includes edits by the original user.

I've rejected a number of edits by askers or answerers on their own posts because the edits made fundamental changes.

NERDmaster

anyone played genesis LPmud?

Medix2

16:15

And now I'm thinking about moving the "what do the rules say" and "how I run my tables" to their own third answer.... Maybe I should just make a single answer saying "It depends on the trigger of Two-Weapon Fighting" and delete the others..

goodguy5

16:35

I like your answer

I was typing mine and posted it, then I saw yours. Was actually thinking about deleting mine

Medix2

Yours actually addresses the handed-ness confusion which I forgot to do

Medix2

17:00

@NERDmaster The Lars Pensjö computer game? I played it a while ago

Gwideon

17:18

hey can I show off another thing I've made

nitsua60

@kviiri s/daylight/sleep and you'd have me smiling =)

Xirema

@Gwideon Only if you defeat this ninja.

Medix2

17:35

[pulls gun out of hammer-space]

Gwideon

defeats ninja

Rubiksmoose

@Medix2 [pulls hammer out of gun-space]

Gwideon

i'm still working on this artstyle for a story telling animation

so um yeah

goodguy5

17:52

cute!

Rubiksmoose

@Gwideon I like it!

Medix2

@Gwideon Something about "questioning" looks a bit off to me. But the others definitely convey their described emotions. One thing though, I'd very much avoid the word "special"

Rubiksmoose

@Medix2 I thought the same thing. It could just be me, but more often then not I've seen it applied to non-neurotypical people.

goodguy5

It reminds me of the Fry "not sure if" meme

Gwideon

@Medix2 i would never use it in that context. I do use it in a script to describe a character who consistently makes bad decisions (which was intentional on the players part) it was the best word I could think of to get that across

Xirema

17:58

Whoops, missed the context.

"silly", I think, might be the right term.

Gwideon

yeah i guess

I just don't intend to offend anyone

user15026

What sort of emotion are you trying to convey? We might be able to help you come up with a better word.

Medix2

Hmm... Accident-prone definitely doesn't cut it... Yeah I'd just say be careful, since while intent matters, things can come across in different ways

goodguy5

zany, came to mind when I saw it

Medix2

Oooh that's a word!

Gwideon

18:03

it's more that the character is odd and can be rather unattentive (missing that he could solve the entire situation with one spell) or just making some rather idiotic decisions. ahhh I don't know how to describe it.

of course this was from a campaign where the group lovingly named themselves "Idiots in space"

maybe I should send over the script to make sure it doesn't appear to be offensive or anything

sorry

i'm not good at this

docs.google.com/document/d/…

I guess I was going for odd

Medix2

Nah nah, you're definitely coming from a good place, and describing tendencies/emotions is very difficult (it's why we've got a billion words)

The art is good too :)

Gwideon

thanks.

Medix2

Okay that was fun and funny to read. Really liked how you described your own actions and other things like "promptly rolls another 1"

Maybe the phrase "lost in thought"? Distant? (instead of special)

Gwideon

thanks. I tried my best to capture the utter ridiculousness of the situation.

@Medix2 Hmmm yeah that might be better

goodguy5

19:06

@DavidCoffron in that locate object answer

Are any other physical descriptors valid?

Such as, if they found out it was a "Red gem" or even a "4-inch red diamond"?

GcL

@goodguy5 I think calipers would be a fine addition to an adventuring pack. "Hey, remember that red gem?" "The 10.15 cm gem or the 10.0 cm gem?"

goodguy5

XD

"Choose between the standard adventurer's pack, or the engineer's backpack"

Eternallord66

I believe I just answered a question correctly for the first time since the question was asked. Can anyone point out if I'm wrong in that assumption?

23

Q: Can you benefit from the Defense fighting style while not using armor AC calculation?

Let's assume a Lizardfolk fighter, with the Defense fighting style, wearing leather armor. Lizardfolk, per Volo's p. 113, get Natural Armor: You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC ...

dnd-5e racial-traits armor-class fighting-style lizardfolk

GcL

@goodguy5 That just means we need to create a slide rule as well.

@Eternallord66 It's always wrong to assume a question has been answered correctly. /S

goodguy5

@Eternallord66 I don't think so.

Upper_Case

19:11

@Eternallord66 I'm not sure that holds up

GcL

@Eternallord66 You're assuming the lizard folk isn't wearing armor. The character IS wearing armor, but opting to use their natural armor calculation for AC

goodguy5

^

GcL

"You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC"

that explicitly covers the condition where you're wearing armor but want to use your natural armor instead.

Upper_Case

I think that the point of the natural armor / worse regular armor is that even if an attack beats your regular armor it still has to contend with the natural armor. So the armor that "counts" is the one with the higher AC

GcL

@Upper_Case I run the description as follows: A lot of armor or padding is moving in such a way that it takes the punishment instead of you. If you're not doing the things that put the armor in the way of harm, then it's not really helping you much.

Upper_Case

19:14

The Defense fighting style is about behaving in a way that makes you harder to hit and/or makes hits less severe, presumably by using the armor to absorb and deflect blows (hence the requirement to be wearing armor). The Lizardfolk can still use the regular, worse armor that way, even if their natural armor is better

GcL

So the lizardfolk could be behaving in a way that is depending on their natural armor for protection instead of their leather ~~armor~~ fancy thick clothing

@Upper_Case I concur

Upper_Case

@GcL I'm bad at semi-synchronous chats... but I think we're on the same page

Xirema

19:25

So the problem with your interpretation is that there's no such thing as flavor text in 5e. "When you aren't wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier" is then followed by "You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC"

That's an inherently confusing set of sentences, but the only way to logically interpret it is to say that the second clause is negating the first. Otherwise, you're either arguing that one of those clauses is intending to be ignored/not treated as rigorous rules language, or else you're accepting a ru…

MikeQ

It's only applicable when the lizard is both wearing armor and not wearing armor

goodguy5

@MikeQ Schrödinger's lizard

MikeQ

Exactly. The lizardfolk is neither armored nor unarmored, until they are observed

David Coffron

@goodguy5 Yeah. As long as it is a "kind" of the generic one

GcL

@Xirema That's not unclear to me. When not wearing armor... AC is Nat AC. If the armor you wear has a worse AC, you can choose to use your natural AC.

Covers both cases.

The "You can" makes it pretty clear that it's optional for the wearer. You can do the thing when the conditions are such.

Xirema

19:30

@GcL Well, it's contradictory clauses. "If you're not wearing armor, your AC is 13 + dex", and "when you are wearing armor, you can use this AC instead of the armor". So why write "If you're not wearing armor" for the first clause?

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron How specific can you get, then?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I added a bit. Gonna depend on the GM. I'd say one qualifier that is standardized

goodguy5

"Where is the nearest crowbar with a tine bent 2 degrees off model?

GcL

@Xirema First case covers when you're not wearing armor. Second sentence covers when you are wearing armor. That's pretty comprehensive to my ear.

Xirema

Why not just write "Your Natural AC is 13 + Dex. If you're wearing armor whose AC is lower, you can use this AC instead."? Simple and clean.

Someone_Evil

19:32

@Xirema To help people learn/remember that they can choose which AC to use if they have more than one

probably

David Coffron

I can search for a blue gem, red gem, 10 karat gem, but not a "gem of 10 cm" or "gem with a scratch on it".

goodguy5

too much "casual wine friday" at the wotc office, probably

GcL

@DavidCoffron You need those calipers we were talking about!

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron why not?

GcL

@DavidCoffron You could construe scratched gems as a kind of gem.

But probably not.

David Coffron

19:33

@goodguy5 Because this GM says that is not a "kind" of gem, but a "description" of a gem. I would not begrudge a different GM saying otherwise though

goodguy5

mostly to the 10 cm question, but either really

why is "10 cm" not a kind of gem?

GcL

Also, color probably isn't actually a kind of gem... rubies, saphires, diamonds... etc seem like they come to mind.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 Because it is not a way gems are sorted, which is how I define "kind"

MikeQ

@DavidCoffron Is color or weight not a description?

goodguy5

hrm, I think I'm just convincing myself that I disagree with you on this.

David Coffron

19:34

@MikeQ They would be both

GcL

@goodguy5 In an ontological sense? because it's a quality of the gem and not a defining class of gem?

I'd probably let 'em have it. Magic is pretty magical.

Medix2

Unless there's lead around

GcL

Also, who wants to get into a discussion about classification systems while playing?

MikeQ

Yep these sound like physical qualities of a gem. You could categorize the set of all gems into "Red gems vs non-red gems" or "Scratched gems vs non-scratched gems".

Medix2

Now I'm imagining anti-magic field's are filled with lead dust particles

goodguy5

19:36

lead dust?

seems dangerous

David Coffron

@GcL Then how far can they go? All the way? For an extreme: "the gem that was held by Robert Handelfelt for 4 months before being used to purchase a horse"

GcL

@DavidCoffron Seems like you're familiar with that item.

So you win on a different account

MikeQ

@DavidCoffron Well you could rule differently for those sort of external qualities - history, current position, current owner, etc

David Coffron

@GcL That's a whole other discussion

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron Well, he purchased that horse with 5 gems, the nearest of which is _____

Medix2

19:37

I don't think knowing an item's history makes you familiar with it

Upper_Case

Lots of gems are varieties of beryl in the first place, so we're already dealing with sub-categories

GcL

@DavidCoffron I just used the dictionary definition. Also, if someone wants to roll a history check for familiarity... bonus points for remembering that history was a skill that they could use.

Medix2

I think I see why the rules didn't explicitly define these words, it'd be a mess

David Coffron

@GcL History doesn't relate to individual objects AFAIK (unless they have historic significance)

GcL

@Medix2 ontologies can be very useful, but gosh they're a pain in the butt to create decent or good ones.

Medix2

19:38

Individual object history is more what legend lore is for iirc

David Coffron

> Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.

GcL

@DavidCoffron True. I can see that.

Medix2

As a GM though I definitely rule more often on the "benefitting the players" side of things

GcL

@DavidCoffron What about stuff civilizations lost? misplaced? possibly set down thinking they'd totally remember to get back to that later?

Why does this gem have "TODO" scrawled on it in chalk?

David Coffron

@GcL Last time I lost a civilization I got quite a few write ups

GcL

19:39

That's how you get ants, right?

JohnP

@DavidCoffron If you lose civilization, can't you just restart the game?

@KorvinStarmast - Nice edit on that wall 'o text.

David Coffron

@GcL No, that's awakening magic:

Upper_Case

@JohnP Yeah, but the "Dan Quayle" ranking will really sting

David Coffron

If the object I'm trying to locate is an immovable rod can I ever find it since it doesn't really have a position if it doesn't interact with the majority of forces? /s

MikeQ

@Medix2 For knowledge checks, it can be fun to make the players explain why and how their character would know of something seemingly unrelated

David Coffron

19:44

@MikeQ I usually require that the knowledge be connected to the characters background in some way before allowing a check at all (and then the check is just your ability to remember the knowledge you have)

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron I think I've seen somewhere a comic wherin the character activates the immovable rod for the first time and it zooms off into space, as the planet moves away from it.

MikeQ

@DavidCoffron That's a bit limiting, right? Besides, it's plausible that a character could learn of something outside of their areas of expertise.

Medix2

@MikeQ Oh definitely. Yeah I'm always for having the players describe what their character is doing and then I say what check is appropriate. Something always irked me when a player says "I roll Nature to see if X"

David Coffron

@MikeQ Hm? I'm pretty lenient on what's related

But if you are in an uncharted territory then there is no way you could have heard of the religion already.

If you are from a place that interacts with the region in question then I'd allow a history check, but if your backstory is "an isolated tribe of hunter-gatherers" and you are rolling history to try to recall the last emperor's surname, then you are out of luck

MikeQ

Maybe they learned it from a friend of a friend, or saw it mentioned in the footnotes of some unrelated text

David Coffron

19:50

@MikeQ Seems like a stretch

The skill is supposed to let you "recall" lore, not suddenly know something that it is out of bounds of realism, but that's just my take

How many people do you think could readily name each of the past civilizations in their homeland? By the rules the average person could name 50% of the past civilizations on average

Someone_Evil

@DavidCoffron Define civilization

GcL

I don't mind giving rolls that are essentially "jump to the moon". Want to check if the character knows something unknowable?... sure roll it. Less than 45? Huh... character has no clue.

MikeQ

Ok, sure there's the caveat of not allowing rolls if you think the outcome should be impossible, or if a possible success could break the story

Rubiksmoose

@GcL I've gotten annoyed at DMs allowing rolls with no chance of success in the past though.

GcL

Sometimes I let a DC 15 or above give them the knowledge that they couldn't imagine anyone living knowing the thing... which sometimes makes speak with dead kind of useful.

Rubiksmoose

19:55

Though there certainly is a style preference at work for some of that.

GcL

@Rubiksmoose Depends on the players. Many just want to know it's not knowable. Some people really like rolling dice.

Upper_Case

@Rubiksmoose That's the flip side of allowing players to suggest very tenuous rolls

MikeQ

The weird thing about checks is that a successful roll doesn't necessarily give the player what they are expecting, especially when you're dealing with hidden information. It's inconsistent, seemingly by design.

Rubiksmoose

@GcL Fair enough lol. And I guess the frustrated feeling also flips both ways. Rolling a max on a check only to hear it failed frustrates some players (why even make me roll it then?). I guess for some it could also be kind of exciting knowing that it was that tough. I still am pretty solidly in the former camp though.

JohnP

Back to my suitable oneshot/module for beginners, @goodguy5, can you run LMoP with 3 players? Or would 4 or 5 be safer?

GcL

19:58

@Rubiksmoose I don't mind that. Usually a subtle clue like, "It doesn't seem possible to the party members" can get the point across. Frequently that's too subtle though..

@JohnP How do you feel about TPK?

JohnP

@GcL That bad, huh? Well, they're n00bs, they need the creation practice.

GcL

@JohnP There's a bunch of commercially available one shots that are pretty well written for beginners. Like 6 page pdfs that are a breeze to read and run. Lemme see if I can dig up the couple I ran a while ago

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