TRPG General Chat

goodguy5

15:06

ugh, my ceo sends an email every month and just used the word "pontificate".

Granted it was in the context of "I don't want you to think I'm just here to pontificate from my ivory tower", but still.

NautArch

@goodguy5 not sure that was used badly or incorrectly...

goodguy5

1. the emails are always multiple paragraphs. usually around 10.
1.b. "pontificating from his ivory tower" is EXACTLY what he's doing!

2. imo, any use of the word "pontificate" is bad usage, other than perhaps talking about the meta aspects of said word - and even then it's dodgy at best.

NautArch

@goodguy5 You need to start playing corporate bingo

Pierre Cathé

@goodguy5 unless you're referring to a member of the Roman Catholic Church

goodguy5

All I've eaten today has been zucchini banana bread that my wife made (4 loaves!) and it's starting to catch up to me in hunger points.

Matteo Devi

15:15

@NautArch In the question you just answered, it is ok to post a comment that won't answer the question but mayube provide a solution? (like the comment I posted )

@goodguy5 All I've eaten today is bread, cause my loving girlfriend ate my lunch thinking I wouldn't come home for lunch break.

Only bread left at home. I'm starving >_>

NautArch

@MatteoDevi No, not really. And honestly, it's why I didn't suggest anything other than talk. I haven't experienced anything like that. BUt if you're going to give a recommendation on a course of action, you need to back it up with experience seen or done.

Matteo Devi

@NautArch ok, thanks!

I'll remove it

Xirema

The irony of that spell resistance question is that it makes me think the DM doesn't really understand their own toolkit that well. Like, 5e has the feature "Legendary Resistance" explicitly and specifically to make sure a boss doesn't get insta-gibbed by a Hold Monster spell in the first round of combat. And it's not crazy-uncommon for many boss-tier creatures to innately have some kind of Magic Resistance (Advantage on Saving Throws against spells).

So the need to have all their bosses drink "Spell Resistance" potions is such a circuitous workaround.

NautArch

15:31

@Xirema Yeah, it's unclear why this is happening (or even what level they are). Maybe they're low enough that they're not encountering legendary resistance yet

Xirema

I mean, if my level 3 characters are up against a boss, that boss is definitely getting a single use of Legendary Resistance, regardless of whether the base creature stat block has it or not, along with a Legendary Action that deals a small amount (think 1d6) of damage.

No need to reserve those tools to higher level creatures.

It helps that my entire group consists of WoW veterans, so they're well acquainted with "get out of the glowing circle!" boss encounter design. =P

NautArch

@Xirema really? Do you bump up the CR/XP for that?

Xirema

@NautArch I do milestone leveling, and this is usually in liu of just giving them mooks to boss around.

NautArch

@Xirema ah, okay. THat's just a pretty big thing to give them at low levels. Definitely skews encounters - possibly because of fewer spell slots for the PCs.

Dropping a save or suck spell when you only have 2 spell slots is a big commitment.

goodguy5

team, does "failing your 3rd death save" "instantly kill you"?

NautArch

15:46

@goodguy5 that it does.

Xirema

@NautArch I mean, my level 3 group doesn't have any save-or-suck spells anyways, so half the time the resistance doesn't get used. XD

goodguy5

@NautArch so would death ward save you from your 3rd death save?

NautArch

@goodguy5 I'd say no, because you die from failing a death saving throw, not from getting to 0 hp.

Xirema

@goodguy5 I think your observation about whether damage at 0hp actually counts as damage is more acutely relevant.

goodguy5

@NautArch the other clause. about instant effects without dealing damage

Xirema

15:48

Because have you actually taken damage if your HP hasn't changed?

NautArch

"The first time the target would drop to 0 hit points". You've already dropped to 0hp.

Xirema

You go from 0HP to 0HP and 2 Death Failures.

goodguy5

@NautArch yes. the other clause one sec

Xirema

@NautArch You're missing the second half of the spell.

> If the spell is still in effect when the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage, that effect is instead negated against the target, and the spell ends.

NautArch

it's also not an effect

@Xirema I'm not sure I"d qualify as death saving throws as an effect

Xirema

15:49

@NautArch I can't think of any reason not to. Does "effect" have a formal ontology?

NautArch

@Xirema D&D has no formal ontology.

we've been through this :)

But death saving throws are just the result of the dying process. It's not an outside event.

Xirema

@NautArch I mean, does the act of dying itself constitute an effect? I would think it would.

(Although it should be noted in context that the failed saving throw is being triggered by damage, not just a bad roll, per the question that decentdude7 is referencing)

Pierre Cathé

Honestly this is another symptom of designers making unreadable blurb.

goodguy5

if it comes up, I'm ruling that deathward negates (and then nulls) a 3rd failed death save

Pierre Cathé

They could have just written "If u die, u no die" and it would have been all the better

NautArch

15:53

@goodguy5 would they still be at 2 fails?

Would that be a success?

goodguy5

@NautArch yea. Just a skip of that death save.

NautArch

@Xirema I'd still say no, but honestly, if a player pushed me i'd probably allow it. IF they want to drop a 4th level slot for that, more power to them. There are other game effects that are easier/safer/more effective.

If you're spending an action to touch, you may as well use a healer's kit to stabilize.

but want to drop a 4th level spell to NOT stabilize? Yeah, go for it.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (262): Should encounters be adjusted to a full-magic party? by Revenge Deathspell on rpg.SE

goodguy5

so, the example of 2 pass and 2 fail - death ward active
rolls a fail - burns deathward and are now at 2 pass and 2 fail (still).
play proceeds as normal.

Xirema

@NautArch I dunno, it could be a tempting recourse for an Undying Warlock with a bad Wisdom score and no Healer's Kits. =P

Yuuki

15:57

@goodguy5 I feel like 2 Pass 2 Fail wouldn't pull in nearly as much dollars at the box office.

Carcer

@Yuuki 2 Pass 2 Fail: Tokyo Entrance Exams

NautArch

@Xirema Well, if they can't buy a mundane item by the time they have access to level 4 spells,that's another issue :) But again, there are MUCH better things to help that PC. This is not one of them and if someone wants to burn a slot like that, i'd likely just wave it regardless of whether I feel it's necessary.

or rules-allowed.

death avoidance is still a good thing :)

Xirema

I suppose it may be worth mentioning in an answer that the only way for Death Ward to be on a 0hp creature is if the spell is cast on them after they reached that point, where Spare the Dying (a cantrip) or 5sp-worth of a Healer's Kit are (RAW) more effective, and even at my table would only be equally as effective.

There's no effects that reduce max HP without dealing damage, right?

Because that's the only other way a creature could be under the effects of a Death Ward at 0hp.

And most (if not all) effects of "your max hp goes down" also stipulate that if your max hp reaches 0, you instantly die, SOOOOoooo....

Oh, on the subject of "Spell Resistance", my paladin now actually literally has both "Resistance to Spell Damage" and "Advantage on Saving Throws against Spells", due to being an Ancients Paladin (Aura of Warding) and having 3 levels of [Celestial] Warlock→Pact of the Chain→Pseudodragon Familiar's Magic Resistance (which is shared with its master if within 10 feet).

So actually, all that DM needs to do is just retcon that all the enemies the party has been fighting have been paladins with pseudodragon familiars. XD

NautArch

@Xirema Night Hag's nightmare haunting does

Xirema

16:13

@NautArch Mm. Good catch. The latter clause of Death Ward would still take effect before they reached 0HP though.

NautArch

I still don't think it applies, but I'd let it for the reasons above.

Xirema

@NautArch Well, it would kill them without dealing damage. That's pretty textbook.

NautArch

well, here's something interesting...

They have 2 death save fails, and they fail the third, which should mean instant death. But Death Ward kicks in (let's say), and negates the instant death. DOes it negate the third failed save?

Are they still at 3 death save failures and the next round they're dead?

Carcer

I would argue that the only sensible interpretation is that the death save itself is entirely negated

NautArch

@Carcer I think that's the desired interpretation, but not sure it's correct. We're trying to make this 'fit', but I don't think it does. We're having to twist it so it does (which is usually a sign it doesn't)

Carcer

16:19

but you could probably justify either way on the rules as written, albeit I do feel that you'd have be being deliberately unhelpfully literal

NautArch

@Carcer Again, I think we're stretching to make it work at all. But given the cost and the much cheaper and more effective alternatives, I'd still allow it because it's 'loose enough' and my goal isn't to kill PCs.

Carcer

@NautArch to be honest if I had to adjudicate it I'd probably allow Death Ward to pop a dying recipient back up on 1hp

NautArch

@Carcer I'm not sure. Death Ward is preventive, not acute medicine (in my mind.) If you want them to get back up, there are other spells for that that you should choose. I'm not going to give it more than it does.

David Coffron

@Xirema Removing a Constitution buffing magic item does

(Like taking off an amulet of health)

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Good point, although I don't think it's legal to drop someone to 0 hit points through only doing that, since the PHB Errata. I guess you could combine it with multiple max-HP-reducing effects.

David Coffron

16:28

@Xirema what errata prevents sthat

Xirema

> If your Constitution modifier changes, your hit point maximum changes as well, as though you had the new modifier from 1st level. — Using Ability Scores, PHB, 177

And the errata made it so that each level must give a minimum of 1 hit point increase, regardless of your CON modifier.

So it's not legal to reduce a character's HP to lower than 1xLEVEL with only reductions to their Constitution score.

David Coffron

@Xirema Right, but a level 1 wizard can close. Constitution of 1 leaves 1 HP

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Wizards need to stop skipping leg day. XD

Imagine having 5HP at level 5. Literally any single hit against you would threaten an instant kill.

Carcer

@Xirema I smell con reduction/gain hit point cheeeese

but I must away

Yuuki

Hmm... if you're reduced to 1 HP, could you debuff your CON and then remove debuff (or re-buff) your CON and gain health?

Doesn't look like it since it says "your hit point maximum changes".

Hot RPG Questions

16:48

11

Q: Over powered shield?

In my current 5e game the DM allowed our paladin to purchase this shield that was homebrewed by the DM: It seems to me that the ability to sacrifice some movement to gain a +5 to your AC on every turn is just insanely op. Am I wrong? I should mention the character level is 5.

goodguy5

17:20

@Yuuki I'm so mad at and pleased by this joke at the same time.

@Xirema maybe some poisons?

Xirema

17:31

@goodguy5 The only one in the DMG (Pale Tincture) doesn't directly affect Max HP, it just deals damage, and says "this damage cannot be healed until the poison is removed"

Himitsu_no_Yami

18:00

I feel like I asked a dumb question but the words confused me when I read them so I asked

Xirema

18:13

@Himitsu_no_Yami I mean, those questions are perfectly valid here.

Himitsu_no_Yami

It still makes me feel dumb though lol

Xirema

@Himitsu_no_Yami Nah, you're fine. Rules language always trips people up, even when they've been familiar with it for years.

I will warn you that it's probably susceptible to downvotes because it has the appearance of not having done the research, but there's not much you can do about that.

Himitsu_no_Yami

Yeah, I kinda expected downvotes for something like this but I needed the answer to know if i'm doing a certain calculation right

Xirema

@Himitsu_no_Yami One thing that's pretty important in 5e: there generally aren't any secret rules. If a feature says "add X to your damage rolls", there's no weird math you need to work out. If there was, the feature would expressly say so as part of its description.

Himitsu_no_Yami

I'm not thinking so much "secret rules" as "english language" being weird

Xirema

18:22

I guess technically the optional rules in the DMG or the variant rules in XGE might constitute "secret" rules, in the sense that the average player probably can't look them up, but those rules rarely alter the core gameplay mechanics without explicitly calling attention to themselves.

@Himitsu_no_Yami Well, I added a section to my answer to specifically handle Hexblade's Curse; let me know if anything remains unclear.

V2Blast

@Xirema Well, those are optional rules, specifically separate from the default ones, so they're not "secret" so much as a thing presented for the DM to choose whether to use... If they're being used, the DM should generally make that clear

Gwideon

hello

Xirema

Also, the vast majority of "Optional" rules in the DMG are just "here's things we didn't want to set rules for, but players are gonna try to do it anyways, so here's a good example of how to deal with it."

@Gwideon Greetings, human. We've been awaiting your arrival.

Gwideon

sorry not super energetic right now. I'm running off 2 hours of sleep

anyways why would you await my arrival. I'm just a normal boring human

goodguy5

@Gwideon Ah, you're a miner, then.

Xirema

18:35

"Okay, 5e doesn't require use of a grid, but we did coordinate with Roll20, which does use grids, to put in 5e stuff, so maybe some DMs need an easy way to avoid cheesing encounters with diagonal movement..."

@Gwideon We know. All part of the Grand Design.

Gwideon

Miner?

Xirema

"Boring Human"→"Bore + -ing"→"Bore"=="Dig"

The primary currency used in this chatroom is puns.

Gwideon

oh. wow. I'm surprised I've never picked up on that pun

Xirema

Which is why @Yuuki is so much more wealthy than the rest of us.

Yuuki

I dunno, I make puns but the people who print the money aren't the wealthiest people in the country.

Gwideon

18:39

I honestly feel like crap

goodguy5

@Gwideon can you go back to bed? 2 hours of sleep is rough, and get's harder and harder the older you get. and I'm only 31

Gwideon

anyways I'll shut up

no I can't. got school

goodguy5

@Gwideon eh, complain away; I do it plenty and I've only had 1 or two people call me out on it.

Xirema

@Gwideon I'd transfer you some of my "just got back to work after a week-long vacation" energy, but I don't think it works like that. =(

Gwideon

also I lost my dm notebook. all the work I did for my sci-fi campaign and birthday one-shot is probably gone

goodguy5

18:42

@Gwideon nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

any hope of finding it?

Xirema

@Gwideon Oof. That sucks.

Gwideon

don't know

i lost in one of my classes. I've gone back to that class and I still haven't been able to find it

KorvinStarmast

@Gwideon Man, that's rough. Feel much empathy for you.

Gwideon

I don't want to do all that work again

goodguy5

Do you have any kind of contact information in the notebook?

Gwideon

18:44

just my name on the front cover

goodguy5

depending on your school size, that might be enough.

keep an eye out.

Gwideon

i'll see what I can do

Xirema

So over the last week, we discovered that a CR21 Lich is extremely ineffective at attacking a level 10 Paladin with

- Aura of Protection
- Aura of Warding (Resistance to Spell Damage)
- Resilient[CON] (proficiency in Constitution Saving Throws)
- Pseudodragon Familiar [from Warlock levels] (Advantage on Saving Throws against Spells)

Funny how that works out. ;)

goodguy5

that insignia of claws question is a dupe right

Xirema

@goodguy5 Which question would it be a dupe of?

Yuuki

18:49

I should learn ventriloquy.

Gwideon

oh god my head hurts so much

NautArch

@Xirema Any monster worth their salt would kill that psuedodragon with a melee/ranged weapon attack first :)

With those variant familiars....what happens when they die? Can you resummon them?

Xirema

@NautArch You can, you just gotta spend the requisite gold-cost-equivalent of incense + charcoal

NautArch

@Xirema ah, okay. Wasn't sure if the variant worked the same.

Gwideon

i'm gonna get off so it's not just me complaining

Xirema

18:54

You don't even have to spend a spell slot, since the feature lets you cast Find Familiar (and only that spell) as a ritual.

NautArch

That's a pretty nice boost with that variant. Understandable why tables wouldn't allow it.

Xirema

At any rate, with a +9 to Constitution Saving Throws, the only two saves a paladin will be bad at are INT Saving Throws (which no one uses) and DEX Saving Throws, which Liches only have two of (Fireball and Disintegrate).

V2Blast

@NautArch which variant familiar are we talking about?

NautArch

@V2Blast pseudodragon

Xirema

@V2Blast Certain creatures in the monster manual have Variants for when they're used as a Familiar, which permit them to extend some of their benefits to their master. Pseudodragons (which can be acquired by Pact of the Chain Warlocks) are one such creature.

V2Blast

18:58

That's what I thought. The "variant: familiar" sidebars in the MM are meant for actual monsters of those types, making a contract/agreement with a caster to serve as their familiar. It has no interaction with the find familiar spell.

(unless the DM chooses to house-rule otherwise, of course.)

Xirema

@V2Blast Why wouldn't it?

V2Blast

8

Q: Can variant familiar imps and quasits reform their bodies?

The variant familiar forms of the imp and the quasit as described in the Monster Manual are not the same as familiars summoned by the spell Find Familiar, or of the sort summoned by a Pact of the Chain Warlock. They are intended to be actual demons or devils (not a spirit), and a DM-controlled NP...

dnd-5e familiars

NautArch

16

Q: Why can't the "Variant: Imp Familiar" be found with the Find Familiar spell?

The Find Familiar spell describes a familiar The Find Familiar spell description explains what a "familiar" is. It describes its properties — acts independently, can't attack, can deliver spells, can be dismissed into a pocket dimension, etc. The PHB uses "familiar" as a term, expanding its pro...

dnd-5e spells familiars

V2Blast

and that one, yeah

NautArch

I had a feeling it wasn't supposed to work like the normal one.

sorry @Xirema

but <happy trombone> if your DM allows it?

Himitsu_no_Yami

19:01

So, with that question of mine answered I was able to fully recalculate the average burst/nova damage of a character I made and assuming I did everything right at level 7 assuming no advantage or disadvantage I got 102.15 average damage. If anyone is curious on how I managed to get that damage I can put details in The Elemental Plane of Math

i'm really proud of myself for making it at such a low level

NautArch

@Himitsu_no_Yami what's the build/sequence?

Himitsu_no_Yami

Warlock 5/Fighter 2

Xirema

@NautArch This answer is incorrect, though?

NautArch

@Xirema incorrect or just that the tweets aren't as supportive?

Xirema

@NautArch Both. "The feature doesn't say it can be used by players" well, okay, but Druids regularly take advantage of features from creatures they wild-shape into without needing explicit text in each beast's statblock saying the feature can or cannot be used by a wild-shaped Druid.

NautArch

19:04

@Xirema yeah, taht does seem wrong. Pact of the Chain is explicit.

Xirema

Like, I absolutely get any DM that doesn't choose to apply that rule, but saying "well, it's a completely different creature even though we didn't separate it into its own statblock" is not a sound argument, IMO.

NautArch

@Xirema definitely not! And the pact of chain specifically says you can use one of those things instead.

so..you can.

wait tho...

which pseudodragon is it? The standard stat block or the variant familiar? My hunch is that it's the standard stat block. And the variant familiar isn't for pact of chain.

Gwideon

oh god I'm so stressed. I um checked for my notebook and I still can't find it. I'm afraid someone took it. It shouldn't be this hard to find.

NautArch

@Xirema Yeah, on dndbeyond it links to the standard stat block. The variant is a special monster that isn't aprt of find familiar.

I think you're using hte wrong stat block for your character.

Gwideon

but then why would someone want to steal a notebook

NautArch

19:09

@Gwideon I doubt someone did. THat's just one of many possibilities. 1)it's not where you think it is, 2)someone picked it up and threw it out, 3)someone picked itup and is trying to figure out how to get it to you, 4)someone picked it up and stole it.

Odds are It's #1.

goodguy5

@Xirema one about druids wearing magic items. but I can't find it

NautArch

but #2 is also a likely possibility

Himitsu_no_Yami

I was slightly off on my math actually it's actually 105.5925 average damage

Gwideon

i hope it's not 2

Yuuki

There's always that platitude "things you lost are in the last place you look". Because you aren't going to keep looking for something after you found it.

Gwideon

19:10

i've checked both the classroom's I was in before I realized the notebook was gone

NautArch

@Gwideon it might not have been with you earlier than that

Xirema

@NautArch I'm looking at the statblock in the Monster Manual, there's no separate statblock for the familiar variant. It's just a text blurb above the statblock that says details about what changes if the Pseudodragon is serving as a familiar.

Gwideon

no I remember writing in it this morning in one of those classes. sorry this is probably annoying and i should probably just shut up.

Xirema

Actually, the implication of the text is that the only difference between a "Pseudodragon" and "Variant: Pseudodragon Familiar" is that the latter is willing to serve as a familiar, the former unwilling.

NautArch

@Xirema dndbeyond.com/monsters/pseudodragon

that's the pseudodragon stat block you should be using

Gwideon

19:14

sorry

Yuuki

@trogdor Pits are especially great for carbon dioxide because you can just store your food in them!

NautArch

this is the one you are using: dndbeyond.com/monsters/pseudodragon-familiar-variant

Xirema

@NautArch I'm trusting that what you're linking to says what you say it says (I can't view DNDBeyond links on my current network), I'm just saying there's no evidence in the sourcebooks that they're entirely different creatures.

NautArch

@Xirema ah, the familiar variant (which is the familiar that signs on tow ork with you, and isn't summoned as part of find familiar) is different. It has that magic resistance trait and some other stuff.

But that is different than the normal pseudodragon form that is summoned as part of find familiar

Xirema

@NautArch Well, here's how it's worded in the MM:

> Some pseudodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar. Such pseudodragons have the following trait.
Familiar. The pseudodragon can serve another creature as a familiar, forming a magic, telepathic bond with that willing companion. While the two are bonded, the companion can sense what the pseudodragon senses as long as they are within 1 mile of each other. While the pseudodragon is within 10 feet of its companion, the companion shares the pseudodragon's Magic Resistance trait. At any time and for any reason, the pseudodragon can end its service as a familiar, ending the telep…

NautArch

19:17

@Xirema Right, that's the Pseudodragon (familiar variant).

But that's not what you summon.

you summon a regular old pseudodragon

ACuriousMind

@NautArch Nah, the "tow ork" is who you call when your wagon has broken down ;)

(sorry)

NautArch

@ACuriousMind perils of typing too fast :P

Yuuki

@NautArch And without an proportionate amount of fury.

Xirema

I mean, "some pseudodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar" doesn't mean they're an entirely different creature. It just describes disposition.

Yuuki

2 Fast Not Furious Enough.

NautArch

19:19

@Xirema But it does. THat's the variant of a pseudragon that isn't summoned. It comes along for the ride as it's own creature. Not the spirit you summon that takes the form of one of the options listed.

And that's also probably why the DNDbeyond entry links to the standard pseudodragon

It's more powerful because it doesn't just come back. Once it's dead. It's dead.

Xirema

I'm just not seeing the evidence that this feature is divorced from all Pseudodragons, except in their individual willingness to serve as familiars.

NautArch

@Xirema and the direct evidence that dndbeyond links to the standard pseudodragon isn't enough to start with?

Xirema

@NautArch It's not, because I don't understand why they think that the variant constitutes a whole entirely new statblock.

V2Blast

@Xirema That's the thing. Find familiar doesn't summon an actual pseudodragon; it summons a spirit that can take the form of one. Actual pseudodragons are what's described by the "Variant: Familiar" sidebar.

(I do agree that the distinction is confusing/not obviously explained in the books.)

NautArch

@Xirema It's also different in that at any time, it can end its service. This is a specific creature acting as familiar (some pseudodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar". This is not a familiar summoned. It's an animal acting as famililar.

Xirema

19:26

@V2Blast Which is fine; but are Druids unable to use variant features of a beast whose shape they take?

Yuuki

@V2Blast So... a pseudo-psuedodragon?

V2Blast

@Xirema What "variant features" of beasts do you mean?

NautArch

^ was just about to ask that

V2Blast

@Yuuki lol

Yuuki

"I know who I am. I'm the familiar dressed as a familiar pretending to be another familiar!"

NautArch

19:28

@Yuuki that doesn't sound...familiar

Xirema

@V2Blast First example I could find was Giant Lizard, which has variants that allow it to climb or hold its breath, which aren't part of the base creature statblock.

Yuuki

@NautArch I may have mangled it a bit.

goodguy5

@Yuuki When I'm pushing goodbaby5 in his stroller, I'll often exclaim "TOO FAST",
then pop him up on two wheels and follow it up with "TOO FURIOUS!"

He likes it alright now, but I think he's going to love it when he becomes goodtoddler5

NautArch

@Yuuki I'm so ashamed I didn't catch that

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 lol

Yuuki

19:31

@goodguy5 That's when you don't have to follow it up and he'll yell it himself.

goodguy5

@Yuuki 😍 (:eyes_as_hearts_emoji:)

V2Blast

@Xirema Then I'd say no, druids can't Wild Shape into those specific variants. (If they could, there'd be literally no point in Wild Shaping into the nonvariant form of a Giant Lizard, because the Giant Lizard variants' traits are just extra on top of the regular stats.)

@goodguy5 hahaha

Xirema

@V2Blast Well, there is a point: Druids are specifically limited to "Beasts they've seen before". If they've only ever seen Giant Lizards that do not have these features, they would indeed not gain those features, but if the only (or last) Giant Lizard they've seen does have these features, there's no reason they wouldn't be able to take that specific form.

V2Blast

@Xirema True. Though that part makes the two situations less comparable :P

Also, IIRC, both Wild Shape and find familiar say the DM has the creature's stats

NautArch

And I think that situation is different.

It's confusing rather than helping

Xirema

19:38

@V2Blast Granted. But the description on Pseudodragon doesn't state anywhere that it's some physical or physiological difference between the Familiar Variant and the regular version. I'm only seeing a psychological difference. And Find Familiar doesn't expressly limit it to "it must take the form of a creature you've seen before".

Like, a Pseudodragon is a Pseudodragon. It doesn't magically become a different species just because it's smart enough to know better than to serve as someone's familiar. =P

V2Blast

@Xirema The point is that find familiar summons a "spirit", and you choose which form it takes. The "VARIANT: PSEUDODRAGON FAMILIAR" sidebar states that "Some pseudodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar." What I'm saying is that a "spirit" is not actually a pseudodragon, regardless of the form of its body.

NautArch

But it does. The pseudo you summon with the spell is a regular old pseudo. The familiar is a special monster that might make a deal with someone as its own creature and can rescind that deal at any time.

goodguy5

btw, what's the difference between half dragons and dragonborn in 5e canon?

V2Blast

And as NautArch says, the spell governs how the spell works - the sidebar explicitly says "At any time and for any reason, the pseudodragon can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond.", which is clearly not meant to describe what a spirit summoned by the spell does because the spell says "Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands."

NautArch

And most importantly, the spell/pact doesn't say it summons the variant. It summons the pseudodragon.

The variant is different and is named differently with the variant stated.

V2Blast

19:44

> When a dragon in polymorphed form mates with another creature, the union sometimes produces half-dragon offspring. A creature might also transform into a half-dragon as a result of a mad wizard’s spell or a ritual bath in dragon’s blood. In all these cases, the result is a creature that combines the essence of a dragon with the form of its original race.

goodguy5

@V2Blast fair enough. thanks!

V2Blast

forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-dragon

as opposed to dragonborn, which are their own separate species

(probably some historical out-of-universe distinctions too in terms of how/when they were each added to the game)

MikeQ

Dragonborn are created from the character creation menu in Skyrim

V2Blast

boooooo

goodguy5

@V2Blast but Dragonborn (the species) was birthed from a Dragon ritual, right? To serve Dragons? Or at least in editions past.

Xirema

19:47

@V2Blast So why is the spirit unable to take the form of that variant, and inherit all its abilities? It's not like the Pact of the Chain feature says "the creature may take the form of a pseudodragon (its base form only)"?

goodguy5

(I say, before reading the wiki page)

V2Blast

@Xirema because that "variant" is not an inherent type of existing creature. It's how the existing, real creature's stats are modified when that real creature makes a pact to serve as another NPC's familiar.

NautArch

@Xirema because it says you can summon a pseudodragon. And not the Pseudodragon (familiar variant.)

THe latter is it's own thing, with it's own block and own rules regarding how it works with creatures.

Xirema

@V2Blast I think that last part is where we're getting tripped up. There's no text saying it behaves differently based on whether it's a player or NPC.

V2Blast

If you want a better explanation than that, you can ask Crawford yourself :P

JohnP

19:49

Sadness - Robert Garrison (Actor) passed.

NautArch

@JohnP no more legs to be swept

JohnP

@NautArch I was actually wondering if it's too soon for "body bag" memes. :p

Xirema

@V2Blast If he wants to errata that players can't benefit from that feature, I'm happy to accept it. But if it's not written as an actual rule, I cannot agree with that argument.

NautArch

@Xirema I think we've provided you with several explanations backed up by the difference in how they work and that it the pact of chain link on dndbeyond takes you to the standard pseudodragon.

It seems pretty clear to me that you don't summon variant familiars. YOu make deals with them.

V2Blast

@Xirema I mean... No offense, but I don't care whether you accept it. The intent of me saying "ask Crawford" is so you stop asking me. Explanations have been provided, whether you accept them is up to you :P

I've had a long several days

Xirema

19:52

@V2Blast Fair enough, I'm not here to agitate anyone.

NautArch

@Xirema And if you ever put your familiar variant in a situation they don't like, your DM can have them break from you and now you're without a familiar to summon at all.

Yuuki

@JohnP If he passed away, it's not likely that he'd be in a body bag, though I don't know how funeral proceedings work.

JohnP

@V2Blast {_}] Have a stein.

goodguy5

> Yet another, less popular tale told that Io was killed in the war between the gods and the primordials and that the dragonborn sprang from his spilled blood.[16][22] A slight variation on this was common among the dragonborn of Tymanther, who believed they were bred by the dragon lords of Abeir for a cruel fate as slaves.[23]

V2Blast

@JohnP Haha, thank you. Never seen one depicted in ASCII before :P

JohnP

19:52

@Yuuki He had a line in the karate kid where he yells "Get him a body bag!". It's a joke.

V2Blast

@goodguy5 Yeah, I've seen that on the FR wiki. Basically a few conflicting origin stories of dragonborn (in-universe, anyway), no single defining one

Yuuki

@JohnP No, I know that but I'm wondering if the fact he likely wouldn't have been in a body bag would mitigate the inappropriate timing of body bag memes.

JohnP

@V2Blast I started my online experience with dial up BBS door games in the late 70's. You pick up a few things along the way.

V2Blast

haha

NautArch

@Xirema I'm also unclear with what evidence would be enough for you. It seems like we've covered a lot of reasons, but you just don't agree with them.

V2Blast

19:54

@goodguy5 but that still seems different from the "ritual bath in dragon's blood" aspect of the half-dragon ritual.

goodguy5

@V2Blast oh yes, for sure

anyway, have fun, folks. work done

JohnP

I was actually one of the first groups that had a compuserve account.

@goodguy5 later days.

NautArch

@Xirema But crawford does seem to imply that DMs can approve it: twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1037769655778127872?lang=en

but he also says elsewhere that the variant is for NPCs only

But either way, it's a DM call and the standard seems clear that the non variant is the one

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