TRPG General Chat

Black Spike

00:44

Almost ready for our Rolemaster game on Monday ... but our Forum is down ! xo

Didn't get my Character Gen app written in time :(
Will still work on completing it, just for the sake of it :)

Ben

01:26

@vicky_molokh the idea of using the "11d1" is basically just guaranteed 11 damage each time. Since a d1 only returns one result. The concept is just more of a quirky feature of the particular weapon :)

Morning all!

Black Spike

@Ben hi

Ben

Hows things been going?

Black Spike

meh

yourself?

Ben

Just spent a few days in Central NQ at the Undara Volcano National Park.

Black Spike

Sounds good!

Ben

01:32

I didn't even know we had volcanos in QLD

It was pretty cool though!

Apart from the kookaburras that kept stealing my breakfast! haha

Black Spike

haha

trogdor

Lol

Ah Australia, the beautiful place where the cute animals who aren't horrifying or trying to kill you will instead steal your food

Black Spike

@trogdor Why not both?

trogdor

There is no reason

Both can definitely be achieved

XD

To be fair I think most of the animals/wildlife there isn't trying to kill you, it just happens to be able to

Like snakes

Those aren't looking for humans to bite

Doesn't mean it never happens but yeah

Black Spike

probably true. it doesn't really care ... you just happen to be in the way

@Ben what were the volcanoes like?

Active?

trogdor

01:39

Well for snakes in particular it's more like "oh god look at that huge monster! I need to bite it if it comes any closer than that"

"it could kill me just by accidentally stepping on me in the wrong place"

Black Spike

@trogdor venomous snakes have got a "c'mon then! bring it! you 'n' me! Right here, right now!" attitude

trogdor

Eh I mean, they aren't looking for a fight

Black Spike

But they won't back away from one

trogdor

They are actually smart enough to know we are as dangerous to them as they are to us

No they won't

Because usually if you stumbled on them you put them in a corner

Black Spike

true

trogdor

01:42

And they also know most predators respond to running away by pouncing

Or alternatively giving chase

Ben

@BlackSpike Dormant. Have been for nearly 200k years.

But not extinct.

Black Spike

Not an expert on snakes ... but I learnt how to deal with the feral dogs on our local "low-income housing estate"

Ben

[eerie background noises]

trogdor

Even the invasive brown tree snakes here, which are actually not very good at hurting adult humans at all, still posture when they see someone because what they are saying is "go away, don't kill me or I bite you"

Black Spike

@Ben overdue for an eruption? Eeep!

Ben

01:45

Fun fact: the Death Adder isn't actually deadly.

Black Spike

@Ben Yeah, that's what they want you to think!

Ben

It's venomous, but it's not as lethal as the name implies

The Brown Snake is the one to look out for

trogdor

Even though they know thier venom isn't very effective against something so much bigger than them, it's a survival mechanism to try to ward off a threat

Black Spike

We don't have many dangerous snakes in UK

Ben

Which is extra hard because 90% of snakes in Aus are brown

trogdor

01:47

Which probably partly exists because some other snake species are more dangerous

@Ben not to be confused with the brown tree snake

XD

Ben

Exactly lol

Black Spike

yup. quite common ... I'm a brown snake that's giving you the "c'mon then! I got this!!" .. .you don't know if it's a Deadly Killer, or merely a Painful Inconvenience ...

trogdor

Yeah less venomous species probably evolved to fake it

Ben

The Daddy Long Legs is actually one of the most deadly spiders in Australia, but their fangs aren't actually long enough to pierce human skin

Black Spike

heh

Ben

01:49

The Huntsman on the other hand is not actually dangerous at all, but they still do have a very painful bite, simply because they are large spiders with large fangs.

Black Spike

Daddy Log Legs is one of the few 8-legs I can abide

Ben

I actually had many Hunstman Spiders as pets when I was young

Black Spike

My aunt smashed her car up when she saw a Huntsman on the passenger seat!

trogdor

Ugh

All for talking about snakes but I bow out with spiders

Ben

Lol

Black Spike

01:50

@trogdor agreed. Lets get back to volcanoes

Ben

The normal reaction to that in Aus is "OI! NO FREE RIDES!"

trogdor

@BlackSpike Lol

Ben

The ones in NQ are actually slow flow volcanoes. Not all fire and doom and lava explosions

Shalvenay

@Ben aah, Hawai'i style :>

all they do is sit there and drool lava

Black Spike

All we got is Edinburgh Castle

Ben

01:52

There are a whole bunch of them in the area, around 10-12.

Shalvenay

@trogdor :P I wonder if brown tree snakes are edible?

Ben

One of the attractions is the Lava Tubes, where the initial eruptions filled waterways, they future eruptions burned through all the granite to create massive tunnels, over 30m in diameter

Black Spike

the volcanic "plug" is still there, big pillar of solid rock ... all the actual volcano got stripped away

Ben

@Shalvenay They are

trogdor

I assume they are but there isn't really a lack of motivation to kill them

Ben

01:53

Best grilled.

Black Spike

@Ben That sounds worth a visit!

Shalvenay

@trogdor yeah, might be good to have a use for all that snake meat though ;)

Ben

I'm not usually one for geology, etc. But it was impressive

Black Spike

Dang, google-fu fail. "Thrud The Barbarian" ... "Careful, Thrud, that snake is poisonous!" ... "I thought it tasted funny!" ... can't find pic

Ben

Sounds like a job for @BESW

BESW

01:57

In the 80s some mainland scientist tried to convince the locals here to eat the snakes, in order to keep the population in check. It was... not well-received.

Black Spike

Was it India that put a Bounty on some snakes, to try to reduce them ... ended up with people breeding them ...

V2Blast

oh my

BESW

Oh yeah, that sort of thing happens a lot.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, bounty hunting kind of has a strong tendency to backfire in unexpected-at-the-time ways

Ben

"Free food? Sounds like an opportunity for a farm!"

BESW

01:58

@BlackSpike May I console with you Conan the Librarian?

Black Spike

@BESW Excellent!

Black Spike

02:15

ok, time for bed. Catch y'all on the flip side

Ben

Ciao ciao

Powerdork

02:43

How are folks?
I feel good about giving a lore answer using new canon.

Ben

@Powerdork Sufficiently caffeinated

V2Blast

03:25

About to stream our D&D 5e actual-play podcast in about half an hour: https://www.twitch.tv/events/wASQQYDGTRWp9jF9Rm9qeA

In a universe adjacent to our own lies a world known as Runia. This world, once peaceful and idyllic, is now threatened by a monstrous being from its prehistory. A group of adventurers known as Whiskey Company have risen up to do what they can to fight this entity known only as Nagat. They have trekked far across the mortal realms in search of the shards of Barrinoth, the Titan of Justice, in hopes of returning him to his full power.

trogdor

03:52

@BESW I mean, he was a (probably) white guy telling people to eat snakes I can't imagine a very good response to that

Helwar

04:08

@V2Blast went in there to favorite the show in case I can watch it sometime, didn't expect the welcome :)

V2Blast

:D

Ben

04:33

@trogdor Just an FYI, this got flagged :/

Powerdork

How curious.

Ben

I'd say it's because of the "white guy" part of it. There's a mod bot that looks for keywords for this kind of thing, not just other users. The downside of this is that it doesn't pick up context

trogdor

Mm fair enough

Ben

04:53

The quality of said bot even makes me worry about repeating the same phrase for the potential that my last comment also gets flagged. Lol

BESW

Ah yes, the siliconite Dalek-like mantra of AUTOMATE! AUTOMATE!

Hot RPG Questions

3

Q: What is the most damaging one handed melee weapon?

I'm looking for the most damaging weapon (meaning does the most damage to HP on a successful hit) that can be wielded in one hand. I am looking for an answer for both magical and mundane weapons. The only stipulations I have are that it must lack the two-handed property and must be found in one o...

Ben

05:10

@BESW DELETE

Ben

05:53

Question about Booming Blade.

I haven't found an opportunity to use it yet, as it requires the target to move.

So to me, this seems like it needs to be used in conjunction with other things. Disengage, or some other feat that allows for movement away from the target

CTWind

General tactic if you can get it on a rogue is to hover 15ft away, run in, booming blade, bonus action disengage, go back out to 15ft. It's also effective if you're trying to act as a 'tank' to keep enemies off of your allies, since it's harder for enemy creatures to chase. Bonus action movement spells like misty step can also be a decent pairing, or long-duration movement effects like blink.

Ben

Yeah. I have a Fighter/Sorc, and it seems like I need to use another spell in order to use this effectively :/

CTWind

Yeah, cantrips will generally not keep pace with extra attack if available, as casters are meant to be weaker when not expending resources compared to martial classes.

Rogue it's nice on because even if you don't get the followup damage due to them moving, booming blade is around on par with a mundane mainhand & offhand attack.

Ben

06:09

Yeah. I am focussing more on the Sorc levelling, using the fighter as the primary level, but I just don't see Booming Blade working out

kviiri

@Ben These things are a bit two-sided --- it might seem that the cool extra damage is useless because it never fires because the targets are smart enough to not move, but on the other hand there could be a use for pinning targets in place with such a deterrent

Ben

We have a monk, a fighter, and a bard, currently.

So I don't see there being much need for moving

kviiri

06:25

4e does a lot of stuff with the idea of deterrence. Fighters, Paladins, Wardens and other Defender classes are all about "don't hit my friends OR ELSE"

vicky_molokh

07:26

@kviiri I wonder to what percentage it accounts for the 'D&D4e is WarCraft' meme.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh i dunno, I never played World of Warcraft and the other games of the series in minute quantities as well, but I would believe the relatively clear division between party roles did contribute to that.

vicky_molokh

What with the concept of classical tanking is we know it seemingly being a product of computer games.

BESW

@kviiri I always thought of it as forcing bad choices.

kviiri

@BESW yeah, exactly

I like it

@vicky_molokh Hmm. That's some food for thought. I mean, suppressing and pinning enemies is of course nothing new in war games or warfare, and tanking is a relatively straightforward step forward from that... but I guess not that straightforward.

BESW

Attacking a defender means that your attack has less impact: defenders are harder to hit (your action may be wasted because you miss), have more HP (your action whittles off a smaller percentage of the countdown to removing a character from combat), and use healing resources more efficiently (your action causes less resource attrition) than any other character.

vicky_molokh

07:30

Yeah, tanking is very much a case of forcing the enemy to make the tactically unsound decision.

BESW

But every defender has features which penalize attacking their allies instead of them, including granting free attacks to themselves or their allies, granting positional advantages, granting buffs to allies or debuffs to enemies, etc.

vicky_molokh

Normally the tactically sound thing to do is either to focus on the flimsy but DPSsy target, or on the real-time healer, depending on which contributes more to total damage done over the course of combat.

Because the less DPS the enemy has, the more losses you will take.

And taking out tanks has minuscule effect on DPS.

Things can get trickier with tanks that are designed around stuns, slows, debuffs etc. rather than taunting/aggroing.

Nyakouai

Morning!

kviiri

Hi!

vicky_molokh

But if I understand and remember correctly, D&D 4e tanks mostly had taunt- or psudo-taunt-oriented mechanics.

kviiri

07:34

@vicky_molokh They have the "Marking" thing, which behaves slightly differently class-by-class, but the basic effect is invariably that attacking anyone else than the guy who marked you is penalized.

Nyakouai

@vicky_molokh Think you mixed things up

Pierre Cathé

Morning

vicky_molokh

Woops.

Argh, now I can't edit it.

BESW

Every 4e defender has a variation on "if you attack someone other than me, you take -2 to your attack roll," and a feature that is triggered by someone doing that anyway.

kviiri

Some non-defender classes have that too, but nowhere nearly as prominently. Limited to some individual powers as opposed to class-wide feature.

Nyakouai

07:34

It's okay, we get the point ;)

vicky_molokh

This isn't to say that tanking can't produce interesting tactical play.

It totally can.

It just feels very gamist in many implementations (particularly in aggro-generation systems of computer games).

kviiri

Yeah, 4e is very gamist in that sense, I'm not disputing that.

But I think there's merit in that!

vicky_molokh

There is.

There's a certain feeling of confidence in having a system of highly defined causes and effects that work no matter what.

kviiri

I certainly prefer it to games that feel like they're just avoiding a clear design direction.

Hot RPG Questions

5

Q: Does the Warforged's Heavy Plating AC calculation have a minimum required Strength score?

I want to play a warforged fighter/wizard, and I was wondering because of the confusing armor explanation for warforged. Do I have to have a strength of 15 or 13 for the Heavy Plating, since heavy armor has a required strength?

dnd-5e ability-scores armor racial-traits warforged

kviiri

07:46

But the confidence thing certainly does appeal to me too, I like having an idea of what my actions will or might do before I commit to them

trogdor

08:09

@BESW I really love how it actually worked really well too

V2Blast

08:25

@Ben It's great via Magic Initiate on my Swashbuckler rogue. Also may work well with front-line casters that have the Mobile feat.

@vicky_molokh Very true

kviiri

I had to tear off a bit of band aid today respective to Yet Another DnD Campaign I wanted to quit

I feel there's a bit of a shame culture for "campaign drop-outs" but I need to observe my own needs for now

BESW

08:42

@kviiri Absolutely, don't make your recreation into a chore.

Nyakouai

@kviiri And some people actually think this shaming is a good thing. Strangely, they're also often toxic people

vicky_molokh

Now I'm not sure how to react to those two statements. On one hand, I agree that shame isn't an acceptable tool. On the other, I always had the impression that on average, people tend to very often drop out of campaigns in a careless manner, with neither prior warning nor a postmortem of what they think could've been improved or how the issue could've been prevented.

E.g. a lot of campaigns I've been in ended because one week, a GM just decided 'I have a different better idea of a campaign, so I'll just cancel or not show up for this one anymore'.

I wonder if these are just two extremes that somehow feed each other.

kviiri

For background reference, I joined this campaign with a very heavy pinch of salt that I might not be able to commit, but they welcomed me in regardless because they didn't have enough players otherwise

Nyakouai

I'm in the process of dropping out of a game, I've given notice and explained that the GM style and mine aren't compatible, without criticism. He then proceed to thoroughly lecture me, claiming it was weak willed and childish. When I messaged him about the matter, saying I didn't trash his style, so I would appreciate him to badmouthing my character, he answered "I see your point, but you must admit that seeing a player go is tough on a GM and I'm allowed this"

kviiri

@vicky_molokh In a sense, both stem from what I feel is often an unproductive desire to base one's idea of a game over an excessively long campaign. If the GM keeps having new ideas, it sounds like they'd be happier running shorter games?

vicky_molokh

08:55

Tough on the GM? O_ò

Miniman

@Ben That's an urban myth.

vicky_molokh

It's certainly inconvenient, but come on, it's such a ubiquitous part of GMing that one has to be emotionally if not plot-wise ready for it.

Nyakouai

Yeah he is a poor victim. A poor victim that railroad, have avatar in game, favorise players and use bs to justify his plot, but a poor victim nonetheless (Not that I said any of that leaving, as I didn't want more drama)

And about kviiri, I hardly see how you can be surprised and shame someone that warned beforehand that they might have to drop. If you're not okay with that, don't play with the person at all...

kviiri

@Nyakouai Yeah the GM didn't shame me, he was a bit sad but nowhere near what you endured

Nyakouai

The other players did?

kviiri

08:59

I have this recurring trend where it's the other players that are the worst (although still nowhere near as bad as yours)

vicky_molokh

@kviiri IME those cases all involve incomplete campaigns rather than short ones though, and those incomplete ones initially advertised as mid-to-long ones. Often even individual arcs went unfinished.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh What do you mean by "incomplete"?

Nyakouai

I wouldn't say it was bad. He is toxic, therefore his opinion ceased to matter to me. More than an eye-roll and a shrug would be a waste of time in answering him.

vicky_molokh

@kviiri I mean not reaching an finale/epilogue/ending of the campaign or even arc.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh But isn't that something that would be rectified by aiming for complete campaigns of sustainable length, instead of those years-long megacampaigns people read up on the internet about?

(hence my suggestion of shorter campaigns or one-shots --- pardon me if I'm misinterpreting what you mean)

vicky_molokh

09:01

Follow-up on an earlier statement:
In terms of the two extremes feeding each other, here's what I mean, as a hypothesis:
People hear of ghosty dropouts, and so associate dropouts with unreliability and lack of communication, becoming biased against them. Conversely, people who plan to leave hear of others ranting about leavers and so become wary of the prospects of talking about the act.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh Yeah, I can believe that

vicky_molokh

@kviiri I mean I don't think I've seen those GMs ever deliberately try to make those campaign intentionally short from the very beginning. Similarly, I don't think I've seen such players ever say 'I want to join a campaign for 4-12 sessions and then leave; can that be arranged?' when LFGing.

Nyakouai

@vicky_molokh Problem is, you rarely knows if/when you will be available for X sessions. How often are sessions cancelled because someone has a plan this week or event Z happens and people can't attend? Factor life in that and it's quite hard to say for how long you'll be tagging along, imo

Unless you plan to move at a precisely define date, such as for an internship or change of workplace, etc

vicky_molokh

@Nyakouai People who outright come up and say 'sorry, my timetable changed and I can no longer attend' are a different matter.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh That's exactly my point, maybe they should

vicky_molokh

09:15

@kviiri I wonder why they seem not to.

BESW

@Nyakouai This is exactly why I moved from long-form campaigns to one-shots and episodic structures.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh My guess is that it's driven more by gaming culture than actually being the smart thing to do.

BESW

My friends couldn't make long-term commitments and no matter what I did to make a long-term D&D-style campaign welcoming to irregular attendees, they chose to not come at all rather than come irregularly.

vicky_molokh

As a fan of average and long-term campaigns, I'd be very much happier if there was a way to have people play in accordance with interests - short-campaign fans in short campaigns, long-campaign fans in long campaigns.

BESW

The best compromise I've found within the same group is to run a Scooby-road-trip type of campaign: episodic one-shots that are tied together not by plot or setting but by having the same core of characters with frequent and sometimes recurring guest characters.

Monster of the Week is an obvious system choice.

Hot RPG Questions

09:27

7

Q: Where does an unaligned creature's soul go after death?

In the DMG section on "Bringing Back the Dead" (chapter 1, p. 24), it describes what happens when a creature dies: When a creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. I...

dnd-5e planes soul

Pierre Cathé

@BESW It also works well with a Batman-style gallery of recurring villains

BESW

See also:

The Lonely Man Theme - The Incredible Hulk TV Series

►

kviiri

@vicky_molokh I think a proper first step would be trying to shift the culture more in a direction more amenable to shorter games, but there's a few sizeable obstacles. For starters, no game commands as much attention as DnD does, and DnD is oriented towards much longer term gaming.

BESW

(Campaign with one regular attendee.)

The other obvious alternative is to play games where "one player = one character" is not the default formula.

kviiri

Once the "norm" that a good game must be long is shaken, people ought to gravitate more towards the kinds of campaigns they actually like because they start actually realizing they have a choice.

While currently it's all too easy to believe that there's one kind of game and that's a zero-to-hero megacampaign lasting for several dozen sessions, and failing to keep up with that expectation just means you have to try harder.

vicky_molokh

09:34

@kviiri Kneejerk reaction (which may or may not be informative at this point): my experience with the things described above comes from non-D&D gaming.

BESW

@kviiri Been there, burned out.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh I know, but we're still talking about a culture where DnD has shaped, and continues to shape, this kind of expectation.

vicky_molokh

Now that I think of it, that one time when I participated in an explicitly short campaign (4 or 5 sessions), it was a D20 Modern one (not D&D, but some similarity).

Then again, an anecdote does not statistics make.

kviiri

Anything longer than a single session isn't too bad in DnD, or I'd assume in other d20 systems. Four or five sessions is already long enough I wouldn't mind having to do the DnD 5e char creation routine for that --- although I'm considerably faster at that than many of my peers. Practice!

BESW

It doesn't have to be D&D to be D&D-like in ways that are r🐘 to the conversation. High sunk costs in character creation, for example, as @kviiri points out. Or heavily level-gated access to appealing features, especially when coupled with an implicit zero-to-hero narrative which makes starting at higher levels feel like missing out on story.

SmokeDetector

09:44

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (62): What would +1/+2/+3 items be called in game? by Garmin map updates on rpg.SE

vicky_molokh

@kviiri We were handed sheets based on our concepts and got the opportunity to adjust them somewhat. We were . . . IIRC it was either level 5 or level 8, and there was no advancement throughout the adventure.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh Yeah, pre-made sheets are a classic solution. Of course it just means someone else has to bear with the work, but then again there's usually someone who'll do it quite fast.

BESW

@kviiri The Stargate SG-1 RPG has you completely re-do your equipment choices at the start of every adventure, and everybody has different rules for equipment based on their class, rank, division, etc.

(It's a d20 Spycraft derivation.)

Speaking of which, there's news of a new SG-1 RPG coming out next year, with a D&D 5e chassis.

vicky_molokh

Eclipse Phase 2e has PCs often re-choose the 20 or so equipment items and commonly their bodies each mission. I'm yet to try it.

BESW

If I were ever going to play Eclipse Phase (but eh, vanilla cyberpunk), I'd probably want to go with the Transhumanity's Fate version just on bookkeeping streamlining alone.

vicky_molokh

09:59

I am GMing THF version because I found 1e to be unwieldy. 2e is looking better.

I'm definitely not running it like vanilla cyberpunk though.

Generally, transhumanism has *post-*cyberpunk flavour, though it's less pronounced in Eclipse Phase than e.g. in Transhuman Space because . . . well, certain choices of all sorts between presentation, focus, PoVs used, implied reliability and not of narrators etc.

BESW

[shrug] That's a distinction without a difference for me.

vicky_molokh

Well that was unexpected. One has a negative stance on self-modification, and a bleak vision of future. The other has a positive one, with the vision of future that is more optimistic. Among other things.

But then again, different things/distinctions/etc. do and do not matter to different people.

BESW

They share a lot of focuses and themes that I'm uninterested in or tired of, and most transhumanism I've encountered is looking at the future from the past and skipping over the present.

doppelgreener

10:18

From what I understand, cyberpunk is both, but there was a point around the 1970s when cyberpunk literature began transitioning from 'self-modification bad' to 'self-modification good'.

But it's always had entries from both flavors, including entries like Ghost in the Shell which say "can be good, but let's explore and consider the dangers and problems that come with it."

vicky_molokh

@BESW Would you be willing to elaborate on the future viewed from the past bit? Not being interested in some themes is straightforward enough, and skipping over the present and near future when designing a far-future setting to avoid WSoD damage is a familiar technique. But the look at future from the past seems to be a thing more characteristic of more reactionary stances than that of transhumanism and/or post-cyberpunk.

BESW

We've talked about that before.

Mar 31 at 10:45, by BESW

A very popular thing for "classic" scifi to speculate about is how technology will change our values: will it drive us to commodify human experience or free us from material limitations on valuing all life; make us atheist and sow existential despair or uplift us and make us more optimistic and faithful?

Mar 31 at 10:46, by BESW

And sure, sometimes you get awesome stuff out of that, like Leckie's Imperial Radch.

Mar 31 at 10:48, by BESW

But authors like de Bodard and Okorafor take their cultures' values and project them across the stars to see what their perspectives can do with the future.

Mar 31 at 10:53, by BESW

So, you know. Transhumanism's fascinating, but it rarely manages to even acknowledge the diverse possibilities of humanity.

Mar 31 at 9:32, by BESW

Cyberpunk, in particular, is based in a vision of the future as a remixed and intensified present, specifically intensifying capitalist and individualist values. This is completely unlike the visions of augmented humanity we see in stories like Binti and On a Red Station, Drifting, where humanity's relationship to natural and technological innovation is framed in the context of collectivist cultures and family obligations.

doppelgreener

(I've finished Binti now! I can follow that bit! Yay)

vicky_molokh

I remember those views, though I did not think that this falls under the umbrella of viewing-future-from-the-past.

BESW

Transhumanism and cyberpunk both tend to be stuck in the past in terms of people, even if they're staying current with technology.

vicky_molokh

10:27

I always saw that as a major difference between the two. Cyberpunk: 'You have shiny tech, but the people using them suck as always'. Transhumanism: 'You have shiny tech; also you can make people using them better by way of tech'.

BESW

Both of which are centering the tech and asking how it influences people, failing to ask the question I find interesting, and which is absolutely central to modern reality: how do people influence technology?

doppelgreener

The major difference is in the "punk" bit. At its core, cyberpunk is about a world of advanced tech following the lower, gritty, underground parts of life in that world, and specifically about the people in that underground using the tools of society to fight back against it. At its core, transhumanism is simply about exploration of humanity surpassing its current biological limitations.

Transhumanism is just a phenomenon without necessarily any kind of story conventions attached to it, and can show up in all kinds of narratives.

trogdor

@doppelgreener ooh nice, I only read it earlier this year XD

Carcer

cyberpanto

doppelgreener

So, transhumanism occurs within cyberpunk, or cyberpunk is a variety of narrative within the subset of available transhumanist narratives.

Carcer

10:31

"I'm in their system - but where's the ICE?" "It's behind you!" "Oh no it's not" ...

vicky_molokh

@BESW Agreed that transhumanism does focus on tech affecting people. And yeah, it's totally reasonable that your interests lie elsewhere.

BESW

@doppelgreener I'd argue most cyberpunk thinks of itself that way but fails to be truly radical in the sense of the punk movement it's stolen its name from.

doppelgreener

@BESW i'd 100% agree with that in light of recent entries

nowadays it's just a narrative genre rehashing subsets of its own ideas

BESW

And yeah, we're definitely bumping up against "genre is not actually a thing" and dangerously generalizing categorical truths based on the most prominent and least innovative representative elements.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I recently ran into an observation that original punk wasn't about fighting or changing society, but rather about doing your thing. I'm not 100% sure how accurate that observation is, but I find it interesting in the context of changing leanings associated with the same word.

BESW

10:33

That's... not anything like my understanding of punk.

doppelgreener

I got the impression it's a bit of both, but yeah, maybe it was just the one in the beginning.

My understanding is the "doing your own thing" and the anti-establishment behaviour went hand in hand all the way back.

BESW

As I understand it the original punk social movement was very much about re-appropriating the products of society in ways that actively threaten the assumptions of the society which made them.

Which, sure, "doing your own thing" would be a nicely patronizing pat-on-the-head way of describing that while robbing it of all intention.

Peter Greenaway was famously enamoured of punk aesthetics, but disillusioned with punk philosophy as purely deconstructive.

Wait, no, I'm thinking of Derek Jarman. Sorry, I get the Tempest directors mixed up.

One of those guys who filmed an anachronistic version of The Tempest indoors in a big historical house with a bunch of male nudity, you know, they all blur together.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener Anti-established certainly. But there is a difference between individualistic anti-establishment attitudes of not giving a damn about social norms (with the possible side effect but not goal of disrupting current society), and the collectivistic society-changing attitudes that strive to become the new establishment (as an end-goal). The discussion I ran into was saying that the source of the movement was more about the former than the latter.

doppelgreener

Both of those summaries sound extremely wrong.

Punk seeks to challenge current society standards. It doesn't aspire to become mainstream, that's antithetical to the very mission of punk; as mainstream changes, so does punk.

I'd extremely loosely compare it to the role of satire: use tools a situation gives you to hold a mirror to it and challenge it.

BESW

When punk gets systemic power, even a tiny bit, it doesn't know what to do with it. It either loses the power or ceases being punk.

vicky_molokh

10:49

@doppelgreener That makes sense, and seems to be aligned more with the former.

@BESW Yeah, the attitude of the two punks I knew in school during the 90s seems in line with that description - no idea what to do in case of success (for a value of 'success' that relates to getting dominance in society) and no big plan about how to achieve it.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh The former is wrong too: a movement inherently about challenging societal norms cannot be one that doesn't give a damn about them. By being all about challenging them, it extremely gives a damn about them.

BESW

That's why Jarman was disillusioned with them; he saw them wielding a powerful tool, very effectively, in alignment with values he shared... but with no sense of what to do next when they succeeded.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener Hmm. Good point. If it is about challenging the norms because they are there (rather than because they got in the way), then yeah, the former category is inapplicable to them.

BESW

...I could put together a recommended film list for getting a sense of punk, but it'd be deeply NSFW.

Derpy

.... just realized that today is "Talk like a pirate day"

doppelgreener

10:58

It is! Yarr

Carcer

I always talk like a pirate

trogdor

lol

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh really the group I can imagine more fitting the former is the Amish :U

BESW

It's also important to remember that punk is a music scene first. It's a subculture with strong political ties, but always a musical scene first and its particular ideologies depend on when and where you're looking.

eg, British punks were more anarchic than USA punks, but both tended towards nihilist ideologies.

Punks on Film: The Difficulty of Portraying Punk On Screen

►

kviiri

Our history teacher played us Estonian punk music from the late 1980's / early 1990's

BESW

11:11

(Amusingly, Jarman himself made the film that's often considered the best British punk film--but many punks hated it.)

kviiri

I recall one song was Tere Perestroika! ("Hail, Perestroika!") that sounded like it was a snide commentary on the benefits of Perestroika, with perhaps a hint of seriousness.

"Perestroika" or "re-structuring" was a late Soviet era policy that included greater individual freedoms both politically and economically. Before that, music was heavily regulated, making punk technically illegal.

KorvinStarmast

12:50

Great things to read on RPGSE this morning
I just totally love that we're talking about an "unaligned agnostic frog soul"
"we need only concern ourselves with impious frogs"

3

@BESW The Ramones struck me as having no particulary ideology, given the friction within the group

@kviiri One of the things I like about the Ghosts of Saltmarsh is that it gives the collection of modules/adventures in bite sized pieces so that each is a choesive whole, but they can be woven together into a campaign. It's a little bit of "best of both worlds"

@BESW Good point on zero to hero narrative structure. Traveler (original) didn't seem to fall into that, though one was always trying to get a bigger/cooler ship ...

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Well, one does need a bigger boat....

vicky_molokh

@KorvinStarmast There are probably a bunch of iconic games that don't. E.g. Call of Cthulhu has a downward spiral; in World of Darkness Vampire the Masquerade, you don't normally have a hope of becoming an elder (unless you diablerise) and the progression isn't that huge. Paranoia. Teenagers from Outer Space. Etc.

goodguy5

13:06

That reminds me:

I need to get this weekend's session plotted out

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Heh, we ran into a bigger boat in ToA but we were not prepared to handle it. (The Frost Giants' boat) :)

Hot RPG Questions

7

Q: How do I deal with too many NPCs in my campaign?

I'm a first-time GM using the Fate Core system. I got into RPGs to help me work on my storytelling while having fun with my friends, so I've been GMing a homebrew campaign for about a year now. Unfortunately, my players also happen to be my friends who I usually talk to about my storytelling, so ...

gm-techniques fate campaign-development

NautArch

THat power word kill question. I totally get it.

KorvinStarmast

And it already has a good answer.

NautArch

not just a good answer, a great answer

Never thought about it in those ways, but still considering making a "I generally agree with OP" answer.

at the level that spell comes online, odds are your party can kill it in one round if it's under 100hp.

kviiri

13:16

Power Word: Maybe die

vicky_molokh

@NautArch It's still controversial design to have an ability that's not useful on its own when you can't guarantee/expect combinations to always be on the table.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh situational spells are situational, though.

and there are a LOT of those

kviiri

@NautArch yea, esp if you have a 9th level slot to spare. I can kinda see some rule of cool appeal in avada kedavra'ing it instead of summoning gigantic explosion but that's about it.

NautArch

what's the point of water breathing if your campaign never encounters bodies of water for encounters?

kviiri

Yeah. And PW:K consumes a very limited resource while doing something a bajillion other spells already do: inflicting carnage.

vicky_molokh

13:18

@NautArch Situational are, in many systems, but here we seem to be talking about a spell that isn't worth its slot unless combo'd, even under specific situations. Are those as common?

NautArch

@kviiri It's primary use is you're fighting something that can wipe out your party and the party is very low on HP at that stage in the fight. YOu cast it when you think the enemy has been hurt a lot but that if there's one more round, the party may not survive.

That's the non-combo situation where it shines.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Compare it to the original spell from Greyhawk: Power Word — Kill: A spell like the Blind except that is will kill instantaneously any creature up to 50 hit points That was when monsters had their HP rolled, and a 9 HD monster might have 45 HP.

vicky_molokh

@NautArch Ah. At least to the degree. The amount of hurtness of the target being hard to estimate is probably still a major discouraging factor. And the need to have it prepared, for book mages.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh When an ancient dragon recharges its breath weapon and the party is already low on HP is an example of what @NautArch is referring to, I think.

NautArch

@vicky_molokh Yup, absolutely. Just because there's a situation doesn't mean it's a good spell. I personally don't like it, but my group did use it near the end of our campaign effectively.

KorvinStarmast

13:21

@NautArch Do tell. What was the situation?

vicky_molokh

Overall this reminds me of UselessUsefulSpell in terms of design.

Pierre Cathé

Also, Power Word Kill allows you to instantly kill all humanoid NPCs in the MM, except the gladiator

kviiri

Suggested additions to DnD 6e include Power Word: Thrill for causing excitement to targets with less than 300 hp remaining, Power Word: Chill for massive cold damage, Power Word: Bill for summoning Clinton to inflict damage on the bad guys and... well you get the idea

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast We were fighting Lady Fierna along with some very tough bodyguards while another servant of hers had opened up a gate to summon something awful from I think the outer planes.

Our sorcerer, doing what he does, went up alone and was fighting her along two with body guards.

She had been damaged a lot, but was still incredibly powerful. He pointed his finger, and boom. She dead.

Meanwhile, my paladin was taking on the Gate guy and saw the gate open up. Cast Dispel Magic on it and rolled well. Gate gone, creature never had time to get out.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I thought that Power Word: Bill would be something from the Electric Company. :)

kviiri

13:26

@KorvinStarmast Oh my! That's a good double pun there

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Gutsy Sorc.

@kviiri :) The coffee just kicked in. :)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast gutsy/stupid. He went down multiple times each session.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Ah gutsy-stupid, one of the more frustrating alignments

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, they can make a mess of tactical plans (our Barbarian in our first 5e campaign did a lot of that ... but at least he was consistent so I learned how to plan around him)

@NautArch Was your DM using the Mords version of Fierna? She's kinda tough.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Very much so. In some ways it did help because it drew enemies away from the party. And he was powerful enough and had a high CON for good HP soak to take them on.

@KorvinStarmast I think he was using her a bit, but also some homebrew changes. Very tough. We were level 20 at the time.

Her minions were tanky, too. And we had just finished fighting a demogorgon.

and it's minions.

KorvinStarmast

13:30

@NautArch Do you mean that there is more than one of those? Yikes! I thought that he was one of a kind.

kviiri

Yeah, I was just going to ask whether demogorgon is a species or a proper noun.

KorvinStarmast

But it sounds like a grand kind of battle for a clvl 20 group. Epic and such.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Yeah with the right group and the right tone it can be fine very tough though.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast That it was. If there's one thing this group does well, it's combat :) Both in DM's generating it and players playing it.

All a lead-up to the final fight against Belial.

KorvinStarmast

Aah, the real BBEG. :)

NautArch

13:38

And he had a link to an outer plane thing that basically gave it I think resistance to all damage (maybe invulnerability). We had to kill both within a short time frame of each other and then follow it back through a gate to finish off Belial. Whomeer did that was unlikely to return. I was supposed to go (because killing Belial was my vengeance oath), but I wasn't closest and it wasn't my turn:(.

But I had saved a lot of consumables over years for that battle.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Doubtless all packed into a bag of holding? :)

NautArch

Nah,, 20 strength can haul a lot :)

Potion of Storm Giant Strength, Oil of Sharpness

On my +3 glaive

KorvinStarmast

I look at a level 20 Vengeance Oath Paladin, with what you have there, heh ... that's a nice set up.

NautArch

and i had my capstone going

DM wouldn't let me bring my steed, though.

goodguy5

ugh. been a busy morning.

I hate logging in to a bunch of proverbial fires.

Any firemen here to confirm whether or not fighting literal fires is any more or less stressful first thing in the morning (compared to any other time)?

Nyakouai

14:00

Former reservist policemen, fire was actually one of the not "oh shit" time among the calls you can receive

(Mostly because we can't do sh*t, so can't speak for the firemen... So nvm that, I guess)

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Based on my firefighting training in the Navy, and having been on one ship that had a real fire (one dead in that one) ... I'll offer the idea that real live fire fighting is a seriously stressful business. The people who do it as a profession get mad props from me.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast fires at sea. woof. much more dangerous than fires on land.

a woman who used to work for me, her husband was a navy submarine firefighter

i guess id idn't need to say navy

Nyakouai

@NautArch Funny how it ranks by means of transportation. Ship < plane < submarine fire ?

Probably?

KorvinStarmast

Fire at sea: you are pumping water into a vessel that tries to keep water out of it. Fire in an airplane: you have a finite time before you have to be on the ground. (Airline rule of thumb I have heard is "if you aren't on the ground in less than ten minutes it may be too late" .... but that depends on who you are talking to) Submarine fire: like a ship, but you are already under water. 8^0

Rubiksmoose

@Nyakouai < zeppelin? ;)

NautArch

14:17

I can't believe I just figured out that user Ifusaso is If You Say So.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch .... ohhhhhhh! Well me too I guess

NautArch

The game I had to drop out of due to scheduling problems I may get to hop in as a special guest in November. Excited to play my goblin monk again :)

Derpy

@KorvinStarmast There is a theme park "near" where I live. It's similar to the Universal Studio parks, but a lot smaller. There is an U2-Submarine "simulator" ride.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose hahaha, i feel better now.

Derpy

You are cramped in a very small place that replicates the interior of a small submarine. And then they simulate an attack

you don't get any fire, but you do get A LOT of hull breaches.

And Water.

Much Water.

People coming out of the "experience" look like they just came out from a washing machine.

NautArch

14:26

@Derpy I dislike those rides. If I want to go to a water park, i'll go to a waterpark and not have my camera/cell phone.

Derpy

@NautArch to be fair, at least they do have a disclaimer sign outside the ride

But I get your point

NautArch

@Derpy yeah, i went on one at legoland florida and they had the disclaimer, too. But i'm also not a fan of leaving my expensive electronics in open cubbies until i finish the ride.

Derpy

That said, now that you mention it... the park is indeed split between Universal Studio syle movie themed rides and what basically is a waterpark.

So yep, it is very possible that the people going on the submarine ride were already wearing swimwear.

But if you were one of the visitors that just came for the Movie park and not for the Water park.... hope you saw the sign.

Nyakouai

@Rubiksmoose Uh... Maybe between plane and submarine. Doesn't atmosphere in submarine above 1 bar, making things even more flammable? Need to check now

@NautArch Ooooooooooooooh

A "submarine sinking simulator"... As if you needed to combine more phobia in one place ><'

goodguy5

Forbidden lands core game free today only
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/258593/Forbidden-Lands-Core-Game

NautArch

14:37

@Nyakouai i'm feeling better and better about how long it took me :P

G. Moylan

14:51

hey folks

NautArch

@G.Moylan howdy!

Rubiksmoose

howdy

JohnP

@Nyakouai Quick search suggests internal atmo in a sub is normal, not raised. Few exceptions when deploying periscope and breaching, but essentially it's 1 atmo.

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