TRPG General Chat

Derpy

12:02

@vicky_molokh yep, like I said there is a long story prior to that. And it is not like this recent post is the first warning - relationship between staff and the community has been a problem for a while now. What is emblematic is that this last answer is basically (at least IMHO) admitting that they are no longer interested in discussing anything because of the stress and they are just switching to communicate thing since they don't want to expose anyone to the negative feedback

Ludoss

But back from disfunctional group to adventure ideas. In the village I have the idea, that the pcs are asked by a trader to collect metal at the old battlefield. Then they will go into the forest. Perhaps a few wild animal encounters?

MikeQ

@Ludoss Perhaps something that would interfere with their metal-collecting mission?

Carcer

rust monsters

kviiri

Whether or not wild animals are good practice targets for your heroes depends a bit on what type of game you want to play and what kind of a story you want to tell

In rather traditional hack and slash campaigns, animals attacking you is pretty normal fare and you get XP out of them so you can start killing something more dangerous eventually. But if you're into something more dramatic and less XP-grind oriented, things change a bit: you need to have some narrative justification for the animals to attack.

It might be to show that the world is a wild, untamed place where the wilds will devour careless adventurers, or that something is driving their instincts in an unusual direction --- foreshadowing an evil nature spirit, a mad druid, something like that perhaps?

Ludoss

12:18

There should be a neutral nature spirit, who don't want the metall to be collected.

It should send some of the animals like wolfs, bear or rats against the pcs.

He could be the first villian in the adventure.

I don't want a classic h&s game.

kviiri

@Ludoss By neutral, you mean the alignment or?

Ludoss

yes

He should be an enemy to the pcs.

kviiri

Alignments are a really DnD-specific thing though :)

(regarding how you said earlier you're not sure whether you want to run it in DnD, or at least in 5e specifically)

Ludoss

Alignment is a tool to think about how the npcs react?

I can steal it from DnD and use it an another system?

kviiri

@Ludoss Nah, it's at the same time far broader than that and much more specific.

In earlier editions of DnD (prior to 4e) it was quite common for alignment to be a clearly defined mechanical thing that mattered almost everywhere. Some spell would only work against particular alignments, a magic weapon would require a certain alignment, etc.

MikeQ

12:26

For a nature-themed antagonist, there are plenty of fantastical challenges to choose from: plant monsters, hazardous terrain, hazardous weather, etc

kviiri

In 4e and 5e it's more like "broad overview of your morals"

Ludoss

Yes,okay, the spirit is "nature loving".

kviiri

You could swipe it of course, but I personally don't think it's a very good framework so I wouldn't do so.

@Ludoss Yep, "nature loving" describes the concept you're going for much better I'd say :)

Ludoss

and the spirit don't want the metall to be stolen from the battlefield.

Say, the trader wants the pc to collect the metal, they go into the forest and are attacked by animals, which ist strange. They defeat the animals and collect some metal and go back to the village, give the metal to the trader and wait in the tavern, there they heard of the nature spirit.

kviiri

12:43

Sounds like a decent first quest / plot hook

Ludoss

Would prepare another quest for session one, or is it enough?

MikeQ

You may want to prepare other content to flesh out the setting. Also, avoid writing stories that hinge on the player characters making specific decisions; or at least think of some contingencies for when the players do things you didn't expect.

Ludoss

Is the metal collecting hook to less?

MikeQ

The quest is probably enough for a plot hook. I meant preparing details about the town and nearby environment, in case the PCs want to explore.

Ludoss

I have some npcs ideas already, tavern owner, gerneric farmers, the major of the village, etc.

What other points of interest could be in the area? Perhaps a fungus circle where eldarin or feys dance? What else?

kviiri

13:02

@Ludoss This is one of those questions that's quite hard to answer without knowing anything else from the game --- in DnD, an encounter or two against some animals is likely enough to keep the players busy for most of the session, but most other systems aren't quite so slow-paced with their combat.

Ludoss

Some older GM told me to prepare just 1-2 sessions in advance. I have enough material for this I think, so I can start playing, or?

The other system I am thinking of is PF or SavWorlds, both need some time for combat.

kviiri

@Ludoss Again depends on the system and kind of game you'll be playing --- lots of systems recommend not preparing anything at all (or only painting very broad strokes like the world around the players)

Ludoss

You mean like dungeon world starter?

kviiri

Yeah, PF is essentially DnD and Savage Worlds is equally combat-focused, just quite a bit grittier

MikeQ

@Ludoss Maybe also think of a noncombat encounter? And give the players a heads-up about what to expect, in general terms (e.g. theme, combat emphasis, etc)

Ludoss

13:06

Perhaps they can talk to some elf rangers?

I will try to talk to the players what kind of encounters they expect.

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast Will we get updates to our PDFs for free or have to pay for it yet again?

@Viishnahn I am finding the Artificer to be a bad fit for the Saltmarsh campaign I am running in world of greyhawk, in terms of "low magic high magic" setting.

kviiri

I think in general social encounter should be more than just talking. Can you think of some tension, conflict etc that could be introduced and resolved there?

KorvinStarmast

@jcm A quickling steals something valuable from the party and runs off into the "off the path" zone.

G. Moylan

Elf rangers whose companion has gone missing in the woods!

Ludoss

13:22

Which fantasy system recommand not prepareing anything at all?

MikeQ

@Ludoss Sure, you could present it as: After venturing into the woods a bit, they meet some elves, now they have a choice: convince the elves to guide them to the battlefield, or navigate the woods without a guide (and risk encountering more animals)

Ludoss

ah, that would be fine.

Pierre Cathé

@Ludoss Anything you're not preparing beforehand, you'll be preparing on the spot while playing

MikeQ

@Ludoss Whichever system you choose, remember that the players will need to learn parts of its rules in order to play it. And that takes time.

BESW

@Ludoss There are a lot of systems which support low/no prep, but they generally require playstyles and storytelling attitudes that are unlike what players expect from D&D-like games.

Ludoss

13:29

Which fantasy system do you recommend for low prep games?

kviiri

@Ludoss Dungeon World is a fairly popular alternative to DnD, largely because its design incorporates tropes from DnD and translates them into a more drama-driven, less crunchy format.

BESW

I've had good experiences with Fate games like Masters of Umdaar. Fate is a free system and there are a number of free setting modules for it, including a wide variety of fantasy options.

kviiri

But I should continue that I'm personally not too fond of DW --- I don't fancy those DnD tropes much myself. But some people will.

Viishnahn

@BESW Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't really considered that. I suppose something like Gumshoe could work quite well in a noir campaign set in Sharn or something.

@KorvinStarmast No problem, thanks!

BESW

Gumshoe, Fate, Lady Blackbird... systems don't fit settings so much as they fit themes and stories, so figure out what your themes are, what kind of stories you hope to tell, and find a system which pushes that.

Ludoss

13:34

So DW or Fate Core. In one group we played FC in a scifi setting, but it was prep heavy as far as I know, I was player.

BESW

Fate's prep is variable, depending on playstyle.

Ludoss

Gumshoe? What is that?

kviiri

Oh yeah Lady Blackbird is awesome. It's not the most typical high fantasy setting, though.

BESW

I like to play Fate fast and loose by asking players to share the GM's improvisation load during the play session.

Viishnahn

@BESW The hacks you have to work out are a headache sometimes, like trying to convert detailed weights and costs to more abstract forms. I'll consider it, though my group is a wargaming group first, roleplaying second (for now - we'll see if that lasts)

BESW

13:36

Gumshoe is a relatively complicated RPG system that's designed specifically for mystery investigation stories.

@kviiri Check out Lady Hackbird. Quality not assured.

kviiri

@BESW The first one to catch my eyes is the one about baseball.

BESW

@Ludoss If you're interested in low-prep styles of play, I recommend reading the Lady Blackbird "Running the Game" advice even if you never intend to play Lady Blackbird.

user15026

Oh yes, I feel like that would be helpful.

user15026

@kviiri that one made me the most immediately curious because it's not something I'd ever think to play

kviiri

@Ash The link gives me 403: Forbidden :(

BESW

13:51

In particular I benefited a lot in ALL my games from applying the sections "Listen and Ask Questions, Don't Plan," and "Say Yes and Look for the Obstacles," as well as the "Script Change" section from Playing the Game.

kviiri

I stumbled upon a system called The Regiment which is an Apocalypse World hack about being on a military expedition. Eyeing it now for potential ideas

Interestingly for a PbtA, this seems quite interested in having some tactical crunch in there too.

user15026

15:16

@kviiri aww boo :(

KorvinStarmast

19:12

@BESW Kapok Hearts. Organizational suggestion. Your table lists the Setting, Objective, Obstacle. The text above it orders those three as Objective, Obstacle, Setting. My suggested edit: Setting, Objective, Obstacle to mirror how you set the table up. Word smithing suggestion, very much up to you. Replace "kid" with "Child." But you may have a "feel" reason for kid as a choice there.

nitsua60

@BESW I have hopes (perhaps unfounded, who knows) that the healthy and, frankly, inspiring work we see happening in some of the Network sites--the "laboratories of Kindocracy," I believe Madison called them?--might contain wisdom that could be brought to bear on the evident cultural difficulties found over in the money-making side of things.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Sorry, the place that I noted "kid" was in the same paragraph as the other text edit suggestion.

nitsua60

Personally--and having given little reasonable thought to what this would actually mean/do--I wonder of "sharding" the SO database into ten or so fragments might be a way forward.
It's probably a horrible idea for a thousand should-be-obvious-reasons, but I still wonder....

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Do you mean the SO base site be split into more sites based on ... a criteria? There are already a few topic dedicated sites on the pro side ...

nitsua60

I think of it in a slightly different frame: I'm not sure "the staff<-->community relationship" exists in the first place, to even be broken. The last year of SO seeming to spiral a little badly in some places reminds me uncomfortably of a tough couple-year difficult patch I had with my stepmother-in-law.
I believe we both wanted good things, and cared sincerely, and had very different experiences informing our perspectives, and a lot of frustrations we hadn't really expressed or heard from each other. And we didn't have an established and effective practice for communicating these things, …

KorvinStarmast

19:23

Ubuntu, the Apple POwer users, Arduino, code review ...

@nitsua60 heh, yeah, I suppose it does.

@nitsua60 I have read with interest that link from today about the SO hot decision, and when I see comment streams that are 100+ long I know that there is intense interest in the topic ... but as I don't use SO nor SO meta, I have absolutely no basis for an opinion on that.

The SE Meta discussions have similarly interesting issues raised with long comment streams, and I find my distaste for long comment threads to just get more ingrained.

nitsua60

It's a thought I had when reading a recent blog post by Taryn about rebuilding servers techspeak techspeak virtualized techspeak failover 2017 cluster.... One $noun holds 5 databases that are SO/MSO; the other $noun holds the 400 or so databases that are the rest of the network.
And every huge angst-explosion I've read on SO-side always mentions that the things that seem to work elsewhere "just don't scale to SO." Naively, I'm sitting there looking at Taryn's numbers thinking, "maybe you just need to make SO smaller."

KorvinStarmast

Waxy, Seven, Mxy, Doppel and various old school RPGSer's did a nice job of teaching me the value of comments discipline as practiced here.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I have no informed basis, either. But that's not seeming to stop me from offering the opinion anyway!

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 My brother could probably tell me what kind of server architecture might be viable, but I don't have enough deep Server/DB knowledge inside my head to offer an idea.

I was saddened to see the comment about SO employees having sleep problems, etc, based on how they are being "communicated with" on meta. And her honest post about "why" attracts down votes. (Reflexes at work, I wonder?)

About a decade ago, I was a member on a site where three of my favorite moderators (a forum) quit in rapid succession. I found out through a friend, who volunteered to stand in for a few weeks, why they had done so. They were not just getting hateful PMs and comments in forum threads, a few of them had been getting phone calls from people who had tracked them down.

I wonder if some of that is going on with some of the SO mods?

nitsua60

19:46

@KorvinStarmast No idea. Hope not--nobody needs that crap.

V2Blast

@KorvinStarmast Wayfinder's Guide is a "living document", so if you've bought that, all future updates/changes to it will be free.

@nitsua60 Is this the site's first anti-motto? ;)

nitsua60

@V2Blast Let's lob it at one of the proper mottoes and see what results =)

Ludoss

What is a good system for a scifi exploration campaign?

nitsua60

20:02

@Ludoss What are some systems you've liked or not, and what stood out about them?

Ludoss

I like a lot of systems. My favorite is Savage Worlds for this game. I looked at Taveler, Gurps Space and FC, but they dont fit. I want a buy system for chara gen, and the rules shouldnt be super complex.

I have no xp with WH40k or Starfinder.

JohnP

@Ludoss Have you looked at the Cortex and Cortex+ systems? They were developed for the Serenity/Firefly rpg.

Ludoss

No, is it good?

JohnP

I like it, although I've only had very limited experience. Cortex and Cortex+ are distinct systems, both developed by Margaret Weis productions (Dragonlance fame).

dice roll pools are used to compare against a static target, and the pool comes from your primary stats.

Well, primary stats + any advantages + any disadvantages (complications). These can be inflienced by using plot points, which are awarded for good game play, successful conflict resolution, etc.

Char creation is also point buy.

KorvinStarmast

I have a copy of the Firefly RPG and it's still just sitting on the shelf. :( Such is life.

JohnP

20:11

@KorvinStarmast I wouldn't mind doing a firefly campaign. The couple scenes we did as a trial were kind of fun. The book has pregens of the major figures from the show to use.

Ludoss

I will get my hands on it, if I see it.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Yeah, that's kinda how I felt.

@JohnP I think it would be fun, yes I do. :)

JohnP

@nitsua60 I've been in situations where that has happened. I was a mod on a martial arts forum where a lot of the members were (semi) known to other members, and some got calls about why they posted what they did, etc. It ended up shutting down the board.

Ludoss

I want the pcs to be part of an exploration ship, finding remains of an old "imperial" base. what could the pcs find in this base? old computers, roboter, connection arrays, old fighter, etc?

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast Maybe I'll take the FF book with me to the cabin this weekend. Mug of coffee, or a beer, and a RPG book seems like a good way to spend time watching the grandparents play with the tots.

@Ludoss You...just basically described half the plot of Firefly the TV series.

Ludoss

20:15

They find old bases in firefly?

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss yeah, and in the movie Serenity.

JohnP

Independents lost the war to the Alliance, and one of the independents cobbled together a ship and a crew and flies the spacelanes taking semi legit to outright shady jobs to survive outside the alliance.

Western set in space, hidden bases/worlds, derelict ships, reavers, lots of fun. I highly recommend watching Serenity.

KorvinStarmast

@JohnP Rumor has it that Joss Whedon played Traveller in the early 80's, and that it informed his creative muse for Firefly.

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast huh. I hadn't heard that, thanks!

KorvinStarmast

If you look at the design of the space ship in the earliest three books, and I think one of the first two supplements, and the floor play of Firefly class ships ... it's kinda close.

V2Blast

20:18

@JohnP Ooooh.

KorvinStarmast

@JohnP When I first watched "Alien" the movie, all I could think of was "huh, someone did a Traveller module."

@JohnP When I watched the firefly three dvd set, I went "huh, someone made a Travelelr campaign."

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast Of course, there's a stack for that

KorvinStarmast

(I only heard of the Traveller/Whedon campaign later on)

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast I never really played traveller.

But, @Ludoss, I think the Serenity RPG would fit probably 90% of what you're talking about right down to a 'T'.

KorvinStarmast

@JohnP When it first came out, we were all very excited. But it had to share time with board games, miniatures, D&D, AD&D, and all kinds of other stuff. None of our Traveller campaigns lasted very long, and a few just blew up. Oh well.

JohnP

20:21

@V2Blast inorite??

KorvinStarmast

I've still got my copy of Snapshot, which is a board game used to run tactical combat during a Traveller like encounter.

In the right hands, I think a Firefly campaign would be great.

I'll go and get my brown coat ...

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast - Hey, quick question - Do you know how reavers get their spears clean?

KorvinStarmast

They Wash them, or stick them in the Wash.

JohnP

ah, ya heard it.

KorvinStarmast

That one was too easy to figure out. :)

JohnP

20:23

@KorvinStarmast That's the rub, I don't GM well enough yet to run a good campaign.

The actual line I was told was "They run them through the Wash"

KorvinStarmast

@JohnP You'll get better by doing, and I know some pretty forgiving players ...

Ah, yes, better joke: "run them through the Wash."

nitsua60

You can play Firefly in Traveller: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/86782/23970

=D

KorvinStarmast

Yes, but I never got Traveller beyond the original game. Mongoose - 2 is the current, yes?

Hmmm, that animated object grappling question has the potential for some NSFW answers, I hope all show admirable restraint.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I believe there's an active fork. MGT2 is a current one, and Miller is also publishing his own T5.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Oh, which means I have expertise rank of ZERO in both. Yay me.

Ludoss

20:40

Okay, I think I will watch the firefly series to get an idea for my scifi campaign.

JohnP

@Ludoss IIRC, the series was aired out of order, and the DVD's I don't think are in order either. Check a list for viewing order, and then the movie Serenity is kind of a capstone/wrapup to the whole thing.

Ludoss

I have seen Serenity. It was nice.

I also seek ideas for a fantasy campaign playing in a trade town.

I want to start the adventure with an earthquake. And the pcs should look for info about the earthquake, then they will be guided to different town. On the journey they will pass a village where strange things happens.

JohnP

@Ludoss I...swear I've played that campaign.

Ludoss

And who was the boss monster?

KorvinStarmast

Aftershocks is a nice touch for an earthquake adventure, since the tremor opens up a crack in the ground that leads to a hole that leads to .... a cave complex/dungeon!

For us, the boss monster was a Wraith and a bunch of skeletons.

(Daggum OD&D wraiths drained PC levels! Arrrrggghhhh)

The 5e ones don't.

Ludoss

20:51

I want the earthquake to break an underground seal and free an aboleth, who runs amok.

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss OK, that's not a beginning adventure, that's a higher tier adventure ...

Ludoss

it is level 4

The players said that the world is too peaceful.

It is for level 4.

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss You want level 4 PCs to take on an aboleth, or do you want the to "eventually" take on an aboleth and grow in levels as they work their way to the BBEG/Aboleth?

JohnP

@Ludoss I don't think we got that far, but what I'm remembering is the Rise of the Runelords, Pathfinder Adventure Path series. pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rise_of_the_Runelords

Ludoss

@KorvinStarmast I want the heroes to become lvl 5 and defeat the BBEG aboleth.

KorvinStarmast

20:55

@Ludoss I guess that will work. Best wishes.

:51165604

JohnP

@Ludoss How many heroes? Aboleth is considered a deadly encounter for 4-5 level 6 PC's.

See this analysis

Ludoss

Four heroes (sorc, pala, bard, fighter)

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss what magic items do you intend for the party to have, if any?

JohnP

@Ludoss - I guess that might work. Best wishes.

@KorvinStarmast - pssst...I got 10 GP on the aboleth at 20:1.

KorvinStarmast

@John Heh, I ain't bettin' against you.

Ludoss

21:00

They got magic +1 weapons (3 of them)

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss The problem for the PCs to solve is this: How do you sneak up on an aboleth? FIgure that out, and you've got a shot at beating it.

Ludoss

But lvl 5 pc have a ton of hp and it is just a small aboleth?

JohnP

@KorvinStarmast What about the slaves?

ACuriousMind

@JohnP Does an arboleth live in trees?

KorvinStarmast

@Ludoss I don't know what you mean by "a small aboleth" the one I am looking at now is CR 10, and "ton of hit points" for level 5 makes me laugh out loud.

JohnP

21:03

@ACuriousMind Ah, boo on you. :p

ACuriousMind

arrrr, I couldn't resist :P

JohnP

aight, I gotta get home to watch the monkeys. @KorvinStarmast - I'll read through serenity again and let you guys know.

@ACuriousMind All good :)

Ludoss

hmm, perhaps the aboleth is a bit too heavy for the group, as they are tactical inferior.

KorvinStarmast

Multiattack. The aboleth makes **three** tentacle attacks. *Melee Weapon Attack* +9 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (2d6 + 5) bludgeoning. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or become diseased. The disease has no effect for 1 minute and can be removed by any magic that cures
disease. After 1 minute, the diseased creature’s skin becomes translucent and slimy, the creature can’t regain hit points unless it is underwater, and the disease can be removed only by heal or another disease-‐curing spell of 6th level or higher. When the crea…

On the other hand, if you want a TPK, it's the perfect set up.

RL summons me, cheers!

kviiri

@Ludoss Your mileage may vary but I would advise against single-boss encounters anyway, and instead pick an easier boss and give them some allies

The DnD combat model being deliberately simple in terms of damage, there's not much feeling of progress when just bashing away at a single monster. It takes a dozen hits and then it's dead, but not much happens to it in between.

Whereas with a boss + minions, the minions getting offed gives the fight a feeling of progress

It also makes the tactical scene more refreshing because with a single foe, many characters will have a very limited set of sensible actions to take. "I hit the boss" isn't very exciting to repeat every turn

Ludoss

21:15

okay, I havent planed the endfight against the aboleth, but I can add some minions.

The first adventure of the campaign shouldn't end with a fight against an aboleth. I think, I want just a sense of danger in the campaign.

Ludoss

21:42

I think I will save the aboleth story for later, when the pcs are level 8-10.

inthemanual

I don't like 5e combat very much at all

Ludoss

okay, which system is better at combat?

Or which combat system do you like?

inthemanual

I don't have serious enough experience in any other system to truly say.

I just find that i dread combat encounters in 5e.

Ludoss

Have you gmed yet?

BESW

If you want complex tactical combat that's tightly designed, D&D 4e is probably one of the best options out there. But that's because it doesn't do much except that.

inthemanual

21:47

I almost exclusively GM

BESW

Personally I tend to prefer simpler systems where physical combat uses the same rules as other kinds of conflicts and the mechanics are more enmeshed with the narrative.

inthemanual

5e combat feels like trying to find a delicate balance between a long, drawn-out slog against an enemy (or enemies) with lots of hitpoints but low damage, or a swingy, quick fight against a glass cannon enemy.

the only consequence the players typically end up with is a loss of HP or other resources, and the combat itself rarely has an effect on the story, typically serving as just a way to slow down the pace or serve as an obstacle or challenge for the players, rather than their characters.

Ludoss

hmm, I want short (5 rounds), interesting combat, with danger. I don't want the pcs to be instant killed.

BESW

yeah, D&D tends to fall into the cycle where you fight in order to get better at fighting, and combat is its own justification.

Which is fine if that's what the group wants, but I like scenes with a bit more.... character.

Ludoss

I tried a non-combat adventure, it was difficult to handle and the pcs used a lot of violents.

inthemanual

21:56

@BESW

oops

I'd like something where combat is more story, less game

when I want gamey, I've got vidya, i've got Gloomhaven, i've got other options.

Ludoss

do you play homebrew or bought adventures?

inthemanual

both

Ludoss

Which system?

BESW

The only time I've ever used pre-made modules in a D&D-like context was re-skinning 4e modules.

inthemanual

5e

BESW

22:03

There's a ton of options depending on what you want. Fate's the obvious one, but Katanas & Trenchcoats, Mouse Guard, etc., also put a lot of focus on the story reasons for why the fight is happening.
And then there's games like Bubblegumshoe and Golden Sky Stories where physical combat rules exist but aren't expected to be used very often because that's not the kind of story you're telling--but when they do get used, it's in service of story.
Or games like Lady Blackbird and Bell Songs where there's no distinct rule for conflict, it just uses the same story-pushing mechanics as all the othe…

inthemanual

I've tried to get my group to explore Fate and bgs, but both didn't work out so well.

most of them tend to like the fighting and gameyness of D&D, I believe. Getting the specific subset of my group that could go for a more story-serving RPG all together to play tends to be a bigger challenge than any other part of running the game.

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: Does a creature have cover when moving through an ally space?

Suppose in the following position A has a reach weapon (and is an enemy of both B and C, not sure if that changes anything). C has soft cover from A, but is also out of reach. Now, C moves closer to A - through B's square then into the empty square. Movement into the empty square would normally p...

BESW

Ah, yeah, I've heard a lot of people have that struggle.

I wonder what they'd think of War of Ashes.

ACuriousMind

@inthemanual This depends a lot on playstyle. Combats in any system can have goals other than "obliterate the enemy", and it has always puzzled me why D&D seems to have this tendency to encourage fighting for the sake of it. (I mean, it's not a surprise that D&D involves a lot of fighting, but it is surprising to me why so many seem content to let that be the goal)

BESW

'cause, like, Fate doesn't have to be non-fighting. You can easily run a Fate game that's wall-to-wall combat but it's still driven by character and motives.

inthemanual

22:09

yeah i get that

Ludoss

If I strip an aboleth of its servent touch and reduce hp, then I think some lvl 4-5 pcs can handle it.

BESW

But I have experienced the struggle of un-learning D&D habits so that kind of play can happen.

inthemanual

our attempt at Fate more-or-less got sabotaged. we had a player arrive late, who'd really missed the worldbuilding, the "what's this about", and all the rest of the "what's expected" that went on in our session 0, and sidelined the whole thing because his understanding of Fate as a "you can do anything" system thought that applied to his character, and not the type of story and settings the system can handle, and my explanation fell quite flat when trying to correct that understanding.

Ludoss

What are D&D habits? Like a monster is correct in the mm?

inthemanual

"we need to fight to gain XP, so we must fight to make progress"
"players are only in service and control their own characters, not the story as a whole"
"winning the encounter matters more than the encounter being interesting"

@BESW mentioned not too long ago about letting players have some of the improvisational debt of the DM. That's something that's not expected in D&D but cna be relatively commonplace in other systems.

Ludoss

22:16

ah, in my old dnd group these were no dnd habits.

BESW

When I ran a Lady Blackbird table at a convention earlier this month, people were startled and then delighted to learn that I was expecting them to help define the world and guide the plot actively rather than reactively.

inthemanual

I think my group tends to enjoy the medieval fantasy genre as well, so when we tried to break out of that with Fate, a lot of them didn't really know what to expect.

BESW

Fate can do that.

Ludoss

You can play high fantasy with fate core, it is an universal system.

BESW

I know somebody who switched from D&D 4e to Fate in the middle of a campaign because it fit the story better.

inthemanual

22:26

i know Fate can do that, but we were already doing that with D&D so we decided to try to do something that "only fate can do", which ended up being too obscure for us to keep up with.

Ludoss

Fate is interesting because of the fate point economy and the aspects.

BESW

Ah, that's reasonable.

KorvinStarmast

@inthemanual That change in structure, from the old "1 gp = 1 XP" which could reward completing a question with a lot less combat, made quite the change to the "feel" you describe. 5e has not reached that far back to get the "feel" to change.

Ludoss

D&D 5e is not a bad system, you can rule to expend the inspiration and get something like fate points.

BESW

And it's not like Fate is the all-singing, all-dancing solution to everything. There's a TON of stuff out there.

In my experience, Fate is really bad at supporting games where everyone at the table isn't on the same page about the setting and tone of the game.

Ludoss

22:29

A system change in middle of a campaign is difficult.

ACuriousMind

I find Fate exceedingly hard to play because it doesn't really tell you when you should be rolling/invoking aspects. It requires very pro-active usages of its systems, because otherwise you end up not using its systems at all - many sessions I've played in resulting in almost ignoring fate points entirely because people didn't want to use them unless they felt it was really important

BESW

Yeah, I consider Fate less of a system engine (that strokes one-two-one-two on its own) and more of a system toolbox (that you have to reach into actively every time).

inthemanual

@KorvinStarmast I'm not sure I follow.

KorvinStarmast

@inthemanual If you gain levels by earning XP without fighting as much, then fighting does not become an end in itself. A lot of OD&D and AD&D 1e play included when to "pick your battles" with the aim to always be "recover the treasure" since 1 GP = 1 XP. And Monster Xp was a hell of a lot less per dead monster than it is now. Go look at the tables in the AD&D 1e DMG, or in the original game.

The overwhelming "big pile of XP" came from treasure, not monsters dead.

Ludoss

The old gold pieces for xp is long gone.

KorvinStarmast

22:34

@Ludoss I am painfully aware of that, having played all editions but 4

inthemanual

That makes some sense. I ran my 5e games on Milestone XP anyway, but my players still always felt compelled to fight whenever there was something fightable.

KorvinStarmast

@inthemanual They have been conditioned to do that with CRPG's and video games and the d20 engine built in 3e.

It's the new reality, so it goes.

Ludoss

So RL calls. cu

KorvinStarmast

cheers! :)

inthemanual

Understandable. That reality is the habit i was trying to describe above.

ACuriousMind

22:36

@KorvinStarmast Years back, I lured my friends into our first RPG session with the promise "It's like a CRPG, but you can do anything you want, not just fight things by default"

KorvinStarmast

@inthemanual I am pretty sure all of us are quite familiar with that reality. :) The best convention/module scenario I was in back in the 1970's had 8 teams. (Points scored for various accomplishments, time limit). Our team came in second. the winning team had one battle. the BBEG at the end. They spend the entire 2.5 hour session avoiding combat and searching out the Big Bad. We had three combats, and had not quite enough resources left to kill the big bad. A vampire.

The other six teams never reached the Big Bad.

@ACuriousMind how did that work out?

I have been giving XP out for "accomplished X" since I was GMing Empire of the Petal throne in the late 70's. But I was also weaned on the DM is not a slave to the rule book principle ... styles differ a lot.

ACuriousMind

@KorvinStarmast Very well! I'll never forget the dwarf stopping in the middle of combat to appraise the candle holders while his comrades were trying to use illusions to lead their attackers into a moat. By my standards today, it was a very poorly prepared session, but it was enough fun to keep us going for about three years until we all went off to university.

I still play a session or two with these people when we find ourselves back in our hometown (usually around Christmas), and we have occasional online sessions

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ACuriousMind

Other exploits of this group include summoning a demon to convince a feudal lord that his bathtub was haunted and an orc-smuggling ring. I'm not sure they ever ended a combat by actually killing all enemies

Black Spike

22:56

We tend to do flat Session xp. Or Milestone.

V2Blast

@BlackSpike I've done milestone in basically every campaign I've played in except one

(and the West Marches game I'm in uses XP too)

when I started DMing LMOP, I used XP because that's what it suggested

but at the start of the last chapter, it basically tells you to do the math yourself for calculating XP, and at that point I just told the players "you'll level up when you finish this section"

Black Spike

@V2Blast It works for us. And avoids people 'chasing XP'. Play the story/characters/plot. XP is just somethign that happens along the way :)

V2Blast

yeah

Black Spike

23:13

One thing we've done for current game (which I know doesn't work for every table, but is good for us) is XP/Session. Whether you turn up or not.

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BESW

I've pretty much abandoned levelling-up style XP as a thing I want in my games.

Black Spike

@BESW Do PCs 'progress' i.e. gain Skills, become more proficient ?

BESW

Depends on the game I'm playing. I prefer games where things change rather than just having numbers and features accumulate.

Black Spike

@BESW I pitched an idea a while back to our group, that included some of their numbers reducing. Or maybe even never increasing. It was not received well ...

BESW

I'm especially allergic to numerical increases.

inthemanual

23:59

Fate has numerical increases to a small extent, but most "levelling" is done through your aspects evolving, if i understand correctly.

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