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12:03 AM
@BelfastBiker Glad to have you! Anything particular bring you to chat, or just coming by to see what's up?
It's still the weekend for half the chat, so we're a bit slower than during the week--a lot of people log in here during their workdays.
@BelfastBiker waves Hello! Welcome to my favourite internet spots.
Hello! Welcome to this sweet spot of internets!
hey there @BelfastBiker, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
@Shalvenay Hi! Sorry, dropped in'n'out!
Today I shall leave this activity band of the chat and return eight hours backwards over the course of the next 45 hours.
12:13 AM
I knew it you're secretly some sort of time lord
Yes! Only, I'm really bad at it. As I say, it takes me 45 hours to go back 8. Other people might just wait 37 hours.
Well, at least I get to see Singapore on the way.
I absolutely loathe traveling for a day or two, only to find that I have to live through those days again once I've arrived.
@BESW Not saying I am old, or anything, but in time you won't mind reliving that same day now and again. That's one of those relativity things; The older we get, the faster time appears to move.
@BESW lol
Q: How deep is the Underdark? What is its max and median depth?

OharHow many miles under the ground do the Underdark tunnels and caves typically go? One? Five? A hundred?

12:23 AM
@BESW I loathe travelling for a full day or two, full stop. I'm mostly doing it because it currently still is a requirement in academia that if your field has a topical conference on the other side of the globe, you go.
Morning all
Started playing Legacy on the weekend.
I have a "destination not the journey" outlook on travel. I'd be terrible at road trips haha
@BESW @Ash @Shalvenay TY guys! Just realised chat is here lol.

Just checking it out... just finished remaking my level 10 character into a social god, with some nice surprises as she levels... itching for our second session now.
@Ben I'd be a lot happier traveling if the journey wasn't just being sealed in a pressurized tube and hurtled through featureless space. Unfortunately there aren't any oceanic passenger routes from Guam.
@BelfastBiker oh, very cool. I assume from your tags that you're playing D&D?
I remember the satisfaction of a really good character leveling plan.
12:34 AM
@BESW Yes indeed, dnd5e. New homebrew campaign.
@BESW I chop and change so often my characters.... just thought of a couple more tweaks in terms of class levelling order though, lol....
heh, yeah. These days I play game systems where I can get surprised by how my character progresses without worrying about whether they'll be mechanically effective, but I do remember that process!
You're starting a new campaign at level 10, you said?
@BESW Just discovered the Changeling race. I'm in love. :) Yes, level 10, as we finished the ast campaign at level 9 and we all decided to reroll characters.
@BESW In 4 levels, gonna get me a flying griffon for mounting or battle, and a water elemental pet without needing concentration, using magic circle, summon elemental and planar binding....
@BESW might want to look into freighter travel?
Q: Where can I get information on freighter travel?

sykhI want to go from New York City to any destination in Europe on a freighter. The only place I've found information for doing this requires a round trip. I don't want to go round trip. I want to spend some months in Europe and I don't care where in Europe I start.

Discussion question: If you're homebrewing a setting for heroic fantasy stories, but want to avoid the Tolkien/Arthurian/Volsung thematic assumptions, what do you use for inspiration? Do you draw from existing folklore and mythology?
@MikeQ There's the whole rest of the world outside a narrow corner of Europe, with their own traditions to draw on.
12:42 AM
@MikeQ now I wanna know what Volsung is....
@BESW Right. And it's annoying that so many westerners assume that "heroic fantasy" = pseudo-medieval western Europe. Or if they try to represent something else, it's often a cartoonish exoticized version.
Of course, you've got to be careful about audience and message and not just rip aesthetics.
For me, I'd first try to define "heroic fantasy" more closely in terms of the goals of myself and my friends in play.
@BelfastBiker It's a large chunk of Norse mythology/lore that has been the inspiration for many western fantasy stories
Because I think while a lot of people just think about the aesthetics, there's narrative structures and themes which, if absent, would make us feel like the story isn't heroic fantasy even if it retained those trappings.
And that's a bit of a problem, potentially; those structures and themes tend to be absent --or at least significantly modified-- in other cultures' traditions.
@MikeQ I do Swords and Sorcery, so i start with Fritz Lieber and Michael Moorcock.
12:47 AM
@MikeQ Netflix has an episodic series about the adventures of Monkey, that might be a fun place to start.
I then look to the inspirations for a lot of old D&D stuff: movies from the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Thief of Bagdad, etc.
@BESW That's what I've noticed. Many of the themes and philosophies and values aren't universal in other locations and eras.
Bollywood fantasy has amazing over-the-top action heroic setpieces with superb human drama.
Ok, how about an adjustment to narrow the discussion a bit: Let's say the intended audience has mostly been fed on Anglo-Euro-centric western fantasy stories, and they'll equate such tropes with "standard fantasy".
And the goal is to... meet their expectations of standard fantasy without lifting from the obvious/common sources?
12:53 AM
I suppose the goal is to support heroic storytelling while using a setting with different aesthetics, tropes, and values
@BESW Can you give me an outstanding example to start my delve with?
We don't really get access to Bollywood movies in N.Ireland, but having seen clips of some of them on youtube, I think a few downloads are in order....
@Anaphory Baahubali is on Netflix in some areas.
It seems to be on the one I will have access to.
@MikeQ Okay, so if you replace the aesthetics, tropes, and values of "standard" heroic fantasy gaming... what's left to define it as heroic fantasy?
@Anaphory Ask @V2Blast, though, they're much more likely to be able to make good suggestions for bombastic Indian heroic fantasy films.
@MikeQ Or are you asking... um... how to bring a group of players from one paradigm to another?
1:00 AM
@BESW Well for the "heroic" part, that would be stories about folks who try to help people or overcome great adversity. The trouble is the "fantasy" part.
Have you read What Sunny Saw in the Flames? In the US it's called Akata Witch.
I think it's a good example of heroic fantasy that draws on a completely different paradigm. It's rooted very firmly in Nigerian traditions, values, aesthetics, and concerns.
Or Journey to the West or any of its derivations by Chinese creators.
Or the Detective Dee movies.
Or stay in that narrow corner of Europe but draw on other sources: Bell Songs is a free RPG that's designed for Rodent Society play (Redwall, Watership Down, Mouse Guard, etc).
@BESW Those are good examples. So essentially, draw from fantasy that draws from folklore?
@MikeQ All modern fantasy is individuals codifying cultural traditions.
And that leads me to what I think is the strongest recommendation, but also the most difficult: draw on your traditions.
Does anyone have recommendations for Bollywood movies? Despite (or possibly because of) growing up in Little India (Central UK), I have only experienced low-budget soap-operas (and bits of the late 80s "Mahabharat")
Drawing on our own traditions for storytelling can require a lot of self-reflection on what our traditions are, if we didn't grow up with that understanding. What's our own folklore, our cosmogeny, our anthropogeny, our theogeny, what are our stories about why the world is the way it is and what it means and how to behave?
(This is why I'm writing Where Are We Going?, as a reification of my thoughts on that subject.)
@BlackSpike Lagaan immediately comes to mind. It's not fantasy but OMG THE MUSICAL NUMBERS.
1:15 AM
@BlackSpike Makkhi (also called Eega) was pretty entertaining mix of action, romance, and revenge
(That's a song about the rains coming after a drought, and you can hear the rainclouds coming in the music.)
Thanks. Will look into them
@BESW "Bollywood music" has been an on-and-off background-sound for most of my life, but I've never really -listened- to it.
In terms of drawing on your own traditions, you've just given me the idea to homebrew lots of things using Celtic mythology.... My God, i'll never get to sleep and get up for work now...
@BESW Would if I could. I've considered it for more of the socio-political drama aspects of worldbuilding, less so heroic action stuff
@BelfastBiker Oh yeah, there's tons to draw on there! ...Though I'm not sure I've read very much own-voices literature derived from Celtic traditions... hm.
1:25 AM
@BESW yeah, a lot of the ancestral European mythologies occupy a weird space in that regard
It's another of those traditions that other people REALLY like mucking around with.
(I assumed Lloyd Alexander was Welsh until I looked it up a few years ago.)
@Shalvenay It will never fail to amuse me that the Matter of Arthur is predominantly French.
But when I think about one's own traditions to draw on for storytelling, they aren't just the very old stories inherited through culture. They're also the stories from my own family's history, and the mass media that influenced me as a child.
D&D worldbuilding directly quotes 1950s British films and 1970s toys from Hong Kong and 13th century French hagiography.
@BESW yeah, that is a good point as well
There's nothing wrong with being influenced by our environment, so long as we're critical and analytical about how we use those influences and we do everything we can to minimize harm--because some of our influences are rooted in histories of harm and we have to deal with that.
That's why I wrote Where Are We Going? the way I did: it's explicit that the stories which guide us aren't just the kinds of things we think of formally as stories, and through play we reflect on the value of our stories and make conscious choices about how much to let them influence us.
1:42 AM
@BESW It does look an interesting concept. Telling new Stories, inherently based upon the Stories we know, and which we find important. Not something my group would be in to at all, but I'd be interested to see how it pans out
I'm stuck in a bit of a bind on the math right now, and as you know I've got a half-dozen different games in various points of dev so I bounce to another when I get stuck
Right now I'm almost done with Kapok Hearts, it just needs another hard session of writing to turn the token system into a pacing economy, and hopefully it'll be ready for playtesting.
@BESW Do you have play-testers? Another set of eyes to check things out?
@BlackSpike This chat provides a lot of great feedback!
So far the only game I've recently gotten to the playtest stage is Long Live the King of Monsters!, which some people in chat have playtested aggressively and are being very patient about waiting for the next revision.
@BESW That's good! (I always need feedback on my Apps ... I'm pretty isolated, so need someone else to glance over them)
@BlackSpike Oh yeah, I know that feeling. I've got a few people I show my professional designs to regularly, I really value being able to do that.
1:56 AM
@BESW Cool! Once I've finished smashing my head on the keyboard, and got my code to -work-, I am at a loss for "is this actually any good?". I need a wider "focus group"
I have found that sometimes printing it out and hanging it somewhere that I'm going to see it from across the room at unexpected times, can help if I don't have anyone else to bounce the idea off of.
interesting idea
Looking at it from far away forces me to see the composition as a whole rather than just the sum of its parts, and looking at it unexpectedly helps me see it from different perspectives and attitudes.
I actually made it to the pub last night (first time in ages!), and met up with one of my mates who's been helping me (online). I've had to rewrite a huge chunk of my latest app, and he's given good pointers . First thing he said was "Now you know why the Design Stage is so important" :D
A fresh perspective (either you own, seeing from a different angle, or another set of eyes) is always helpful
2:20 AM
I have to cultivate some local eyes, because while it's nice to show friends online, I'm designing for local audiences that have their own particular perspectives. I especially enjoy working with Indigenous scholars and artists.
ugh, is OMG o'clock. time to sleep
2:41 AM
@BESW Lol, just because I'm of Indian descent doesn't mean I watch Bollywood movies. You'd have to ask my mom. :P
@V2Blast See? You've got access to human resources I don't!
3:08 AM
Is there a tag that covers something like handouts?
like a GM giving out free loot or something?
I don't,... think there is?
there are a few tags for types of items and loot
like Magic Items is a tag
@trogdor I think V2 means, like, the reference material the GM prints out for players to use at the table.
Speaking of, Legacy is the first game I've seen that has a per-class character sheet. We have 4 players, and we each have different character sheets.
3:27 AM
@Ben ah, never played anything PbtA?
@Ben also, mind describing Legacy a bit to me?
@Shalvenay I have not
@Ben because PbtA games, as far as I have seen, basically do the same thing
So basically, in Legacy, world generation is done by the players, that come up with the cause of the apocalypse, the type of post apocalyptic world, landmarks, dangers etc, and "clans", that live in this post world.
We have 4 players, so we have 4 clans, and one made by the GM, making 5 in total.
So in our game, one is a group of scientists, looking for old world tech and either rebuilding it, or destroying it, depending on whether they find it to be useful or dangerous.
Another is a group of seafarers, that have hidden out under the ocean in old subs and sunken ships, the separate themselves from the mutated creatures that live on the land.
There is also a society of anthropomorphic and sapient rodents and critters, living in a massive hive city.
And then mine was a group of nomadic, evangelistic-type cultists that believe that the whole world needs to burn, in order to rebuild it. "From the ashes, new growth shall prosper".
There's a bit of mucking around with inter-clan logistics... who has rivalries, and bonds, etc, then form there, players choose which of these clans they want to be a member of - either our own, or any of the ones they felt they wanted to be a part of that each f the other players came up with (we all chose to be members of our own clans).
The final step is picking a class. Hunter, Seeker, Sentinel, etc, and we are given a character sheet based on the class choice we make. Each class has specific abilities, statuses, etc.
So, we have a scientist, a scavenger, a pyromaniac and a sapient, anthropomorphic Capybara.
3:40 AM
@Ben cuddles the anthro-capybara
There was a bit of an argument as to why a Capybara would be member of a society comprised of vermin and scorpions in trench-coats, but ultimately, since they are classified as "rodents", it made sense haha
And yes, the DM made a note of "2/3 scorpions in a trench coat". So I daresay we'll be seeing him at some point.
@Ben would there be anthrosquirrels in their ranks as well? XD
because I'm sure that there are quite a few folks who'd call squirrels "vermin", and they're definitely rodents...
I'm not sure. Maybe they were the reason for the fallout...
@Ben squirrel gnaws wire, blows world up
The Ultimate Victory of CyberSqurrel1!
@Ben One thing I like about Legacy is how it's willing to troupe it up. If the capybara wants to go do something nobody else particularly cares about, you can all make quick characters who look pretty sharp in their 1940s fedoras and play out a couple scenes.
(all from the capybara's clan, that is)
3:51 AM
@Glazius Yes, that was mentioned actually. It makes for quick one-off side adventures to switch it up every now and then.
4:17 AM
@BESW Correct. For instance, NPC statblocks for PCs to play (in 5e, I think SKT provides some of these in handouts), or other supplementary material for PCs to have access to (e.g. the Essentials Kit comes with handouts/cards for all the included quests and magic items). I searched afterwards and only found a few questions that included the word "handout" specifically", but maybe there's a slightly broader/different tag that covers the topic.
on a different note:
Q: How to randomly generate a village or town for old school D&D game?

Adam FlynnThere is a lot of material written on random generation of dungeons for play. But inevitably characters have to return from the to spend those ill-gotten gains. And where else but a nearby settlement, be it village, town, or city? Obviously the larger the settlement the more involved or recurs...

This is a question from 2010. It got closed as a shopping/tool-rec question, but as mxy points out in a comment, the question itself asks for methods, not tools: "But does anyone have some good methods for quickly generating or stocking a village or town?"
The question itself seems fine, and exactly the sort of question we want people to ask. The issue, I think, is that all but one of the current answers (including the accepted one) are tool recommendations, and mostly don't include much more than a link to the resource.
4:48 AM
Hmm. I'll vote to re-open. How about leaving comments on each of the insufficient-if-the-link-dies answers asking for improvement, and maybe deleting the worst offenders?
2 hours later…
6:20 AM
Q: What's so great about Shalantha's Delicate Disk?

A_S00In a recent comment, Hey I Can Chan mentions that he has found the spell Shalantha's Delicate Disk (Lost Empires of Faerun, p. 33) to be sufficiently powerful that he avoids using it when DMing due to balance concerns. What's so impressive about this spell? Is it: The ability to pre-cast spel...

6:41 AM
@V2Blast The tag might be the closest thing we have.
7:00 AM
@linksassin Hmm... Doesn't seem like a great fit
@V2Blast Agreed, but I don't know if we have anything better
The line between handout and prop is kinda blurry. I take props as things made to look like they belong in the game. But handouts to be purely information.
However things like maps are a grey area.
7:21 AM
Blurry lines are ok :)
today in "tags that sound like euphemisms"
2 hours later…
9:40 AM
Q: Does a creature in flight affected by the Haste spell fall when the spell ends?

GalendirThe final sentence of the Haste spell reads: When the spell ends, the target can't move or take Actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it. (PBH p. 250) If a creature such as a wyvern, pegasus, griffon, etc. is flying while hasted (that is, under the affect of ...

10:40 AM
Q: Does a "melee spell attack" use my spellcasting ability, or my Strength?

Random Level 3 DruidThe spell "Flame Blade" makes a fire sword that you can perform a melee spell attack with. As a druid with higher Wisdom, I would rather have it be based on that than my Strength, but I'm not sure if I would use my Wisdom or Strength, considering it is a 'melee spell attack. Would I use my Wisdo...

11:31 AM
hey there @PierreCathé, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)
@Shalvenay Hi, been here a few times already but thanks for the welcome ;)
Welcome back. What's new?
@BESW Thanks, I've been helping my friends make their first D&D character sheets this weekend
@PierreCathé What did they land on as a character?
11:49 AM
@Someone_Evil One is playing a half-orc-turned-mercenary, one is a dragonborn despot who realised that oppressing people is wrong and left all of it behind to master martial arts, and one is a fish-esque tiefling who was raised by fishermen and after a catastrophe at sea was cursed with sinking any boat he steps on, and turned to the worship of Poseidon to seek forgiveness
One player still hasn't made their character
I'm going to run them through Curse of Strahd. I know it's not supposed to be a newbie adventure, but they have experience in another rpg system
So I figure they'll be fine after the intro mini-adventure that'll help them learn the system
12:09 PM
@PierreCathé What's the other system?
@BESW Le Donjon de Naheulbeuk, a French free rpg
I was their GM weekly for about a year
The intro adventure can be quite lethal. My party survived it without casualties, but two out of our four characters were unconscious and the other two had only one HP remaining each.
@kviiri Yeah judging by their prior adventures, they'll need to learn caution as well
@PierreCathé I thought that was an audio series.
There's a game system?
@PierreCathé I think the major lethalness factor there has little to do with caution, but that might help later on in the adventure.
12:12 PM
@BESW Yeah, it started as an audio series parodying ttrpgs and the guy making it decided to make a freely downloadable rpg based on the series
Interesting. What kind of system is it?
@BESW he went on to make comic books and novels about it, and is currently working on a video game adaptation
@kviiri Yeah I'm not yet ready to run it anyway, I'll work on that
@BESW It's based on the german rpg The Black Eye, using a d20 for challenges and several d6s for damage. The atmosphere is rather silly, with (optional) arbitrary cosmic punishments, cartoon-style villains and colorful npcs (who opens a tavern in the middle of a dungeon ?)
From a player's POV, I felt the introductionary adventure that comes with CoS is one of those adventures where one might be screwed by taking too long, or be screwed by rushing in. And you only know which is the case when it's too late :)
Ah, yeah, I'm passingly familiar with TBE, from folx in this chat mostly.
@kviiri Honestly I'll be gentle with them there, and if they get in over their heads I plan to give them a safe retreat
@kviiri my goal is not to kill them before the actual campaigns even begins
@BESW It's good fun really, and it's possible to do some more serious stories too if you're prepared to do a little world-building, but I don't enjoy that much and we've been through all of the free adventures so I steered them towards D&d and bought an adventure for that :)
12:21 PM
I'm toying with a homebrew Bike Kids system, mashing up Bubblegumshoe and Kids On Bikes with, I dunno, probably some super stripped-down version of Fate.
The goal is Encyclopedia Brown/Nancy Drew/Three Investigators style cozy play.
Sounds fun, some kind of mystery investigation?
Hi team
@DavidCoffron could you look over this answer when you have time?

Yeah, low-key mysteries, no murders, probably not anything more than petty crime, bullying, that sort of thing?
and anyone else particularly crunch-savvy in 5e. I think that they've got a new best answer, but I'd like someone else to confirm.
I'll be using the Bubblegumshoe/Kids On Bikes collaborative worldbuilding/relationship mechanics, so the whole group will be deciding what it's gonna be like.
But I know this group likes to keep things low-stakes, focused on relationships.
12:28 PM
Got it, so pretty roleplay-heavy
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer (171): Is there a list of wizard spells by level by school? by Ariana Antonio Grande on rpg.SE
@PierreCathé Very. One of the things I really like about Bubblegumshoe is that its mechanics push relationships heavily: there's a lot of stuff teenagers can't do because they don't have the skills or resources, and your relationships give you access to those things, but you have to spend time maintaining the relationships or they become strained and start to make problems for you instead.
This group has also been spending a lot of time playing Golden Sky Stories, where you get XP for being helpful and adorable, and you spend XP to increase your relationships which generate the points you need to improve skill checks and use mystical powers.
Nice, I'll look it up
The rest of the Bubblegumshoe system is, I think, a bit over-engineered for the effects it produces. ALL skills use the "spend points to do extra cool stuff" system but there's no ludonarrative hook for regular skills that aren't rooted in relationships.
So you just wind up with a lot of bookkeeping. You can tell a system's overworked when a few years later they release two system variants which cut the whole points-per-skill mechanic and just say "you get three points per refresh, use 'em for whatever."
Q: How to handle sub-tags that lack appropriate parent tags?

nick012000So, a new user just posted a question that had the warlock tag, without any other tags. The warlock tag is defined as such, on its page: This tag is for questions pertaining to the D&D warlock class, in editions where it exists. I attempted to add the appropriate parent tag to the question ...

12:39 PM
@TheOracle We should take D&D out of the warlock tag wiki.
@BESW That's not a bad idea :)
Either take D&D out, or include a note on it being applicable to other systems
A lot of tags have system-specific wikis that just wind up being wrong, I think generally it's a poor implementation.
Especially because I think warlock is a system
Every now and then we wind up with arguments about using a tag for a system other than the one in the wiki, even though the system the tag's being applied to does use that term.
I think we had some issues with tags for Fate terms that people couldn't imagine weren't used by other systems too.
@goodguy5 That does ring a dark glass, faintly.
12:43 PM
I've never seen those words together in that order, but I know what you mean.
Sorry, Fun With Idioms. "Ring a bell faintly" and "through a dark glass." Two idioms for vague impressions.
Anybody here read/played Kids On Bikes?
@BESW the closest I've been able to find so far is an old periodical for Fighting Fantasy under the name "Warlock".
I mean, at the very least all the D&D-likes, Pathfinder, 13th Age, Dungeon World, they've got warlocks.
I *THINK* I was thinking of this, a pc game:
@BESW That was my thinking as well :)
12:54 PM
Ruf des Warlock (kurz: RdW) ist ein Fantasy-Rollenspiel, das 1990 zuerst von „Fantasy Games Bonn“, dem Entwicklerteam, und dann 1992 vom Games-In Verlag veröffentlicht wurde. RdW ist nach eigener Angabe „Ein Rollenspiel für Fortgeschrittene“, und richtet sich explizit nicht an Rollenspiel-Einsteiger. Das komplexe Regelwerk ist sehr eng an die Spielwelt Tanaris geknüpft, die zum großen Teil in Abenteuerbänden ausgebaut wird. Die Bücher des Rollenspiels stehen in dem Ruf, viele Anleihen von anderen Rollenspielen zu verwenden, sich eines eigentümlichen Humors zu bedienen und sehr viele Anglizismen…
also, google translate is garbage

"The Warlock's Call" is closer than "Call of Warlock" imo.
I know it's technically not funny, but the meta on No, really. I'm playing 1e was kinda funny :)
And lastly, this obscure system:
oh! And Wyverns and Warlocks.
I feel like TERRORSAUR is a game about warlocks but that's probably arguable.
Also they're immortal pterosaur warlocks so there's that.
@BESW Objectively the best kind of warlock.
I was thinking on a "warlock" pun based on either locks as hair or access control device, which reminded me of captain Dread from Monkey Island II
1:02 PM
After you've played an immortal pterosaur warlock bent on vengeance against humanity for daring to claim it's not a dinosaur, any other kind of warlock just doesn't satisfy the same way it used to.
morning, everyone
@NautArch minor suggestion: if you could fit the idea of requiring OP to explicitly give us system info I think your answer will cover all of the querent's concerns. Your edits thus far have made my in-progress answer pointless and that would be the only thing at this point that I might have stressed a bit more. (even though removing the system stuff from non-system tags is the long-term solution to that being an issue, we still need a short term policy on that)
@G.Moylan Morning!
@Rubiksmoose I thought it was explicit, but I want heavy handed now :) HOw's that?
@kviiri howdy!
@G.Moylan top o the morn!
1:07 PM
@NautArch Perfect!
@Rubiksmoose @Someone_Evil brings up a good point. DO we need a meta to update the warlock tag or can someone with rights just go and do it?
I'm guessing such a discussion might want to establish a policy/guideline to not have system specific non-system tags in general and that we should clean up the old ones. There's a good chance there are more than the warlock tag that needs a washing.
It might be useful to update the text on the "Ask a question" page to actually say that system-tagging is required, because it currently doesn't. Worse, the grey tags in the box that serve as an example don't include a system tag
@NautArch From my POV for just this tag this meta should suffice. It's not a big change and voting on this answer should suffice as community acceptance on that point. If someone wanted to doublecheck their wording or ask for improvements a Meta certainly wouldn't hurt.
@Someone_Evil I noticed the various warhammer tags are a bit of a mess, the other day. They need some work to bring up to standard. some of them have blank wikis. I was going to do it this past weekend but I had a lot going on
1:16 PM
So my big brother's first DnD session went on for like, 10 or so hours, including chargen. Not sure if they had any session zero stuff or so
@PierreCathé Well system tagging isn't actually required though. Only for questions that need a system.
I got only rather slim details of him but he noted that he had really shoddy luck with his attacks, except with improvised weapon stuff like rolling a beer keg at a foe.
@kviiri that's always a bummer. A night of bad rolls can be unfun.
I want a game where you play as warlords, but like many old non-anglo-saxon cultures, approval from the matriarchs was required before the war could begin.

If you failed, the campaign remains locked.

1:20 PM
@goodguy5 Looks right at first glance. Double checking in a spreadsheet in my own way ;)
@Someone_Evil any single edit is certainly something that an editor could go and do, but if the thought is to do a widespread effort to remove "system restrictions" from tags then that should probably be its own meta. Something like "here's the issue, here's what I see problematic about it, here's a list of tags that I'm proposing should be edited." — nitsua60 ♦ 2 mins ago
@Rubiksmoose But questions that don't require a system should be tagged [system-agnostic] shouldn't they ?
@DavidCoffron Thanks, boo.
@PierreCathé I think there's a meta somewhere about "should we require system tags?"
@nitsua60 Moreover, I actually think such a proposal would probably be a really good one to hash out on meta.
Which I think the answer should be "yes, or sys-ag"
1:22 PM
@goodguy5 Yeah I'm reading through it
That tag does have a bit of a messy history though.
@PierreCathé That get's a bit hairy. But the long and short of it is that no we don't require the SA tag on all questions not about a particular system.
@goodguy5 That's an interesting question. Does "i'm not concerned about a specific system" also mean "applies to any system?"
@goodguy5 that answer is actually downvoted : rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/7686/45757
@NautArch Then a third option. "non-system" or something
@Rubiksmoose Yeah I can see that
1:23 PM
I want the SA tag on questions that are about system-agnosticism, not on questions that are trying to tell people how to answer. Not sure that's a majority opinion, but it's strongly held in these hooves.
I'm kinda of shocked that i haven't found a question asking "what is an action" for 5e.
Because tags are supposed to describe what the question's about, not dictate the form of an answer.
@nitsua60 I don't understand
@PierreCathé oh man, that was my first meta answers lol
@goodguy5 putting on a question doesn't tell someone how to answer, it tells readers what the question is about. Most people answer with 5e experience, but there's no prohibition on answering "I have the same problem when I play $foo, here's how we've solved it, here's how I can know it'll be helpful to you."
1:30 PM
right.... I agree
I feel like I missed something.

Are you for or against tag requiring?
But often in the history of people (posters, commenters, voters) seem to be arguing that the tag should mean "I'm looking for answers that don't mention system." That's not the question being about something indicated by the tag, that's the tag trying to force answers into a certain shape.
@goodguy5 I am for tags describing the content of questions.
you can't blame the tag for people's usage of it.
and I also agree.
If we had a rule "any question not mentioning one of [this list] must have ," then lots of questions would be tagged sys-ag for no good reason. Why should "how do I calculate X in anydice" be tagged sys-ag? It's not about anything sys-ag.
It seems like nothing concrete came from that meta discussion, even though most people on there seem to agree that something should be done, maybe the question should be discussed again ?
@nitsua60 I agree with this. I think some stuff is so fundamentally detached of existing systems, eg. that Anydice example or something "What game introduced <element X>" that sys-ag would just feel weird.
1:36 PM
Urrrrgh not the system tag / system agnostic tag debate again. It's so messy, nobody seems able to dig down and clearly define their assumptions.
@BESW sorry for digging that up, it just seemed to me like it was almost always the first thing a new user is told (after welcome) and maybe a better UI could help
Like, any discussion of sys-ag has to start with a clear understanding that the way Role-playing Games handles system tags is an exception to standard tag protocol, because if we call a system tag then we're bringing all those exceptions into play and I honestly don't think anybody actually wants that.
@nitsua60 Then we need more tags to group questions into.
system, sysag, calculations (or dice or whatever)
as many as it takes.
Also I'm seeing more people talking about parent/child tagging and that is not a thing.
But clearly I am too grumpy for this conversation, all my holding-my-mouth-right spoons have gone into other things recently. So I'll bow out.
@BESW Thanks to Rubiks/Nits, I addressed that in my answer ;)
Is it bad that I dislike questions that may be considered 'cheese'? The twisting of rules to do things that we know we really shouldn't.
1:41 PM
@NautArch only if you downvote them
@BESW Actually (and unfortunately, IMO), the highest-voted answer on the meta How is the sys-ag tag supposed to be used really seems to argue that sys-ag should be treated like a system tag.
Honestly I wasn't trying to start a debate over system-agnostic, just to allow new users to know that they are expected to tag questions about a specific game beforehand
@goodguy5 I can vote how I want, durnit!
@BESW Have a good evening/night!
@NautArch I don't want to sling around downvotes, but your drunk answer seems like.... not an answer.
1:43 PM
@NautArch Nope. Now, if you didn't like actual cheese, that might raise some eyebrows....
@NautArch I understand the appeal of cheese from a system mastery perspective, and I think it's valuable to know where your system breaks regardless of whether you want to break it (treading lightly is only possible if you know where the weak spots are!), but I also do have a personal dislike for the... gleefulness... that pervades some cheese discussions.
@PierreCathé No worries! Conversation's good =)
@goodguy5 It's a frame challenge. It didn't belong as a comment, but it was important enough for me to want to post.
I also didn't want to say "don't do this", because they may be okay with it. BUt it's the core of their concept and I think it's likely to be problematic.
@PierreCathé It's a legit problem that's been ongoing for a while, it's good to get fresh eyes on it!
@BESW And I think there's a difference between fun cheese and cheese that just pushes boundaries because.
@nitsua60 Heck no. I gave up alcohol because of migraines but I won't give up cheese.
1:46 PM
@NautArch <insert "my grain alcohol" joke here>
Morning folks
Oh gosh it is almost technically morning.
@NautArch Hrm... I'm still not sold, but the current question is "review" not "is this balanced", so you get a pass.
I probably shouldn't have taken that afternoon nap.
1:47 PM
@BESW Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? The Seven Samurai (but toss in a little magic/Kami influence?)
any nap after 3pm is dangerous
@goodguy5 My answer is an implicit "don't do this". But some folks really like that level of management so I didn't want to say it explicitly. But I still feel like (and OP seems to agree) that this may not be as simple as it seems.
Speaking of morning, I've got a bit of 5e headcanon to share: the reason charges on magic items (and many other features) refresh at dawn is that the magical north pole isn't quite aligned with the rotational north pole. So the magical north pole traces out a circle on the Weave every day. There's one strand of the Weave that sits a bit proud of the rest, so the magical north pole "twangs" on it once a day, sending a magical surge through the Weave.
@BESW you can also tap into Persian and Meso American heroic and literary traditions, as MAR Barker did in Empire of the Petal Throne.
@NautArch So, like... flavored cream cheese is fun, but casu marzu is just too far?
1:51 PM
@nitsua60 that only works for globes
but still interesting
@goodguy5 Or discs?
@nitsua60 if you're gonna get weavey the canonical answer to why anything magical in FR behaves the way it does is that Mystra died
@nitsua60 Wait, I thought that the default D&D world was flat? (recalibration necessary)
@nitsua60 Reese's Cup shape, actually. (my homebrew world)
Or, really, anything rotating? Or anything in a cosmology that has a daily cycle? It could be the sun twanging the weave, if your sun moves to create days and nights?
1:52 PM
hang on
@KorvinStarmast I go with topologically-toroidal, locally spherical.
does 5e's fluff actually expand the concept of the weave to beyond FR?
My version of the Points of Light setting had the Material Plane as a convex disc, like Captain America's shield.
because in my head the Weave is an FR-exclusive setting detail
@BESW Yeah, not fun when it's based on bugs :)
1:53 PM
@nitsua60 The sun rises and sets. As with some ancient mythological traditions, it s pulled across the sky by a chariot driven by (some wonderful being). That being's horses leave hoof beats, which hit a resonant frequency of the Weave
@Carcer Technically in terms of 5e mechanics, from Chapter 10, no, but the Weave did start in FR IIRC.
it's definitely original to FR yes
@nitsua60 New headcanon: magic effects refresh because Ra trips over the reset button on his way back to the sky from the underworld after fighting Apep all night.
@BESW Or, Ra sighs after his fight with Apep, and the force of his exhalation moves the weave to recharge wands.
(I like that better than clumsy-Ra as headcanon)
okay yeah, 5e seems to use the weave generically after noting that it's what FR specifically calls raw magic
@nitsua60 Well, in that case, the world is a donut.
1:56 PM
TIL that the shape of a Reese Cup is a ridged Frustum
I must note that if Ed Greenwood was responsible for this headcanon we'd probably be one letter away from twanging the weave
@KorvinStarmast Or Ra makes a new sun every day and recycles the old one to power wands
@PierreCathé green energy
that's one way to stop global warming
@PierreCathé Works for me. With Ra, you get value for your worship! X^D
@Carcer <insert hair insert joke hair here>
1:59 PM
@BESW pffbt
Thank you....

New lore in my world

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