TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:03 AM

@BelfastBiker Glad to have you! Anything particular bring you to chat, or just coming by to see what's up?

It's still the weekend for half the chat, so we're a bit slower than during the week--a lot of people log in here during their workdays.

user15026

@BelfastBiker waves Hello! Welcome to my favourite internet spots.

Anaphory

Hello! Welcome to this sweet spot of internets!

Shalvenay

hey there @BelfastBiker, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

Black Spike

@Shalvenay Hi! Sorry, dropped in'n'out!

Anaphory

Today I shall leave this activity band of the chat and return eight hours backwards over the course of the next 45 hours.

user15026

12:13 AM

I knew it you're secretly some sort of time lord

Anaphory

Yes! Only, I'm really bad at it. As I say, it takes me 45 hours to go back 8. Other people might just wait 37 hours.

Well, at least I get to see Singapore on the way.

BESW

I absolutely loathe traveling for a day or two, only to find that I have to live through those days again once I've arrived.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Not saying I am old, or anything, but in time you won't mind reliving that same day now and again. That's one of those relativity things; The older we get, the faster time appears to move.

trogdor

@BESW lol

Hot RPG Questions

11

Q: How deep is the Underdark? What is its max and median depth?

How many miles under the ground do the Underdark tunnels and caves typically go? One? Five? A hundred?

Anaphory

12:23 AM

@BESW I loathe travelling for a full day or two, full stop. I'm mostly doing it because it currently still is a requirement in academia that if your field has a topical conference on the other side of the globe, you go.

Ben

Morning all

Started playing Legacy on the weekend.

I have a "destination not the journey" outlook on travel. I'd be terrible at road trips haha

Belfast Biker

@BESW @Ash @Shalvenay TY guys! Just realised chat is here lol.

Just checking it out... just finished remaking my level 10 character into a social god, with some nice surprises as she levels... itching for our second session now.

BESW

@Ben I'd be a lot happier traveling if the journey wasn't just being sealed in a pressurized tube and hurtled through featureless space. Unfortunately there aren't any oceanic passenger routes from Guam.

trogdor

lol

BESW

@BelfastBiker oh, very cool. I assume from your tags that you're playing D&D?

I remember the satisfaction of a really good character leveling plan.

Belfast Biker

12:34 AM

@BESW Yes indeed, dnd5e. New homebrew campaign.

@BESW I chop and change so often my characters.... just thought of a couple more tweaks in terms of class levelling order though, lol....

BESW

heh, yeah. These days I play game systems where I can get surprised by how my character progresses without worrying about whether they'll be mechanically effective, but I do remember that process!

You're starting a new campaign at level 10, you said?

Belfast Biker

@BESW Just discovered the Changeling race. I'm in love. :) Yes, level 10, as we finished the ast campaign at level 9 and we all decided to reroll characters.

@BESW In 4 levels, gonna get me a flying griffon for mounting or battle, and a water elemental pet without needing concentration, using magic circle, summon elemental and planar binding....

Shalvenay

@BESW might want to look into freighter travel?

40

Q: Where can I get information on freighter travel?

I want to go from New York City to any destination in Europe on a freighter. The only place I've found information for doing this requires a round trip. I don't want to go round trip. I want to spend some months in Europe and I don't care where in Europe I start.

europe new-york-city sea-travel freighter-travel

MikeQ

Discussion question: If you're homebrewing a setting for heroic fantasy stories, but want to avoid the Tolkien/Arthurian/Volsung thematic assumptions, what do you use for inspiration? Do you draw from existing folklore and mythology?

BESW

@MikeQ There's the whole rest of the world outside a narrow corner of Europe, with their own traditions to draw on.

Belfast Biker

12:42 AM

@MikeQ now I wanna know what Volsung is....

MikeQ

@BESW Right. And it's annoying that so many westerners assume that "heroic fantasy" = pseudo-medieval western Europe. Or if they try to represent something else, it's often a cartoonish exoticized version.

BESW

Of course, you've got to be careful about audience and message and not just rip aesthetics.

For me, I'd first try to define "heroic fantasy" more closely in terms of the goals of myself and my friends in play.

MikeQ

@BelfastBiker It's a large chunk of Norse mythology/lore that has been the inspiration for many western fantasy stories

BESW

Because I think while a lot of people just think about the aesthetics, there's narrative structures and themes which, if absent, would make us feel like the story isn't heroic fantasy even if it retained those trappings.

And that's a bit of a problem, potentially; those structures and themes tend to be absent --or at least significantly modified-- in other cultures' traditions.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ I do Swords and Sorcery, so i start with Fritz Lieber and Michael Moorcock.

BESW

12:47 AM

@MikeQ Netflix has an episodic series about the adventures of Monkey, that might be a fun place to start.

KorvinStarmast

I then look to the inspirations for a lot of old D&D stuff: movies from the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Thief of Bagdad, etc.

MikeQ

@BESW That's what I've noticed. Many of the themes and philosophies and values aren't universal in other locations and eras.

BESW

Bollywood fantasy has amazing over-the-top action heroic setpieces with superb human drama.

MikeQ

Ok, how about an adjustment to narrow the discussion a bit: Let's say the intended audience has mostly been fed on Anglo-Euro-centric western fantasy stories, and they'll equate such tropes with "standard fantasy".

BESW

And the goal is to... meet their expectations of standard fantasy without lifting from the obvious/common sources?

MikeQ

12:53 AM

I suppose the goal is to support heroic storytelling while using a setting with different aesthetics, tropes, and values

Anaphory

@BESW Can you give me an outstanding example to start my delve with?

Belfast Biker

We don't really get access to Bollywood movies in N.Ireland, but having seen clips of some of them on youtube, I think a few downloads are in order....

BESW

@Anaphory Baahubali is on Netflix in some areas.

Anaphory

It seems to be on the one I will have access to.

BESW

@MikeQ Okay, so if you replace the aesthetics, tropes, and values of "standard" heroic fantasy gaming... what's left to define it as heroic fantasy?

@Anaphory Ask @V2Blast, though, they're much more likely to be able to make good suggestions for bombastic Indian heroic fantasy films.

@MikeQ Or are you asking... um... how to bring a group of players from one paradigm to another?

MikeQ

1:00 AM

@BESW Well for the "heroic" part, that would be stories about folks who try to help people or overcome great adversity. The trouble is the "fantasy" part.

BESW

Have you read What Sunny Saw in the Flames? In the US it's called Akata Witch.

I think it's a good example of heroic fantasy that draws on a completely different paradigm. It's rooted very firmly in Nigerian traditions, values, aesthetics, and concerns.

Or Journey to the West or any of its derivations by Chinese creators.

Or the Detective Dee movies.

Or stay in that narrow corner of Europe but draw on other sources: Bell Songs is a free RPG that's designed for Rodent Society play (Redwall, Watership Down, Mouse Guard, etc).

MikeQ

@BESW Those are good examples. So essentially, draw from fantasy that draws from folklore?

BESW

@MikeQ All modern fantasy is individuals codifying cultural traditions.

And that leads me to what I think is the strongest recommendation, but also the most difficult: draw on your traditions.

3

Black Spike

Does anyone have recommendations for Bollywood movies? Despite (or possibly because of) growing up in Little India (Central UK), I have only experienced low-budget soap-operas (and bits of the late 80s "Mahabharat")

BESW

Drawing on our own traditions for storytelling can require a lot of self-reflection on what our traditions are, if we didn't grow up with that understanding. What's our own folklore, our cosmogeny, our anthropogeny, our theogeny, what are our stories about why the world is the way it is and what it means and how to behave?

(This is why I'm writing Where Are We Going?, as a reification of my thoughts on that subject.)

@BlackSpike Lagaan immediately comes to mind. It's not fantasy but OMG THE MUSICAL NUMBERS.

A.R. Rahman - Ghanan Ghanan Best Video|Lagaan|Aamir Khan|Alka Yagnik|Udit Narayan

►

MikeQ

1:15 AM

@BlackSpike Makkhi (also called Eega) was pretty entertaining mix of action, romance, and revenge

BESW

(That's a song about the rains coming after a drought, and you can hear the rainclouds coming in the music.)

Black Spike

Thanks. Will look into them

@BESW "Bollywood music" has been an on-and-off background-sound for most of my life, but I've never really -listened- to it.

Belfast Biker

In terms of drawing on your own traditions, you've just given me the idea to homebrew lots of things using Celtic mythology.... My God, i'll never get to sleep and get up for work now...

MikeQ

@BESW Would if I could. I've considered it for more of the socio-political drama aspects of worldbuilding, less so heroic action stuff

BESW

@BelfastBiker Oh yeah, there's tons to draw on there! ...Though I'm not sure I've read very much own-voices literature derived from Celtic traditions... hm.

Shalvenay

1:25 AM

@BESW yeah, a lot of the ancestral European mythologies occupy a weird space in that regard

BESW

It's another of those traditions that other people REALLY like mucking around with.

(I assumed Lloyd Alexander was Welsh until I looked it up a few years ago.)

@Shalvenay It will never fail to amuse me that the Matter of Arthur is predominantly French.

But when I think about one's own traditions to draw on for storytelling, they aren't just the very old stories inherited through culture. They're also the stories from my own family's history, and the mass media that influenced me as a child.

D&D worldbuilding directly quotes 1950s British films and 1970s toys from Hong Kong and 13th century French hagiography.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, that is a good point as well

BESW

There's nothing wrong with being influenced by our environment, so long as we're critical and analytical about how we use those influences and we do everything we can to minimize harm--because some of our influences are rooted in histories of harm and we have to deal with that.

That's why I wrote Where Are We Going? the way I did: it's explicit that the stories which guide us aren't just the kinds of things we think of formally as stories, and through play we reflect on the value of our stories and make conscious choices about how much to let them influence us.

Black Spike

1:42 AM

@BESW It does look an interesting concept. Telling new Stories, inherently based upon the Stories we know, and which we find important. Not something my group would be in to at all, but I'd be interested to see how it pans out

BESW

I'm stuck in a bit of a bind on the math right now, and as you know I've got a half-dozen different games in various points of dev so I bounce to another when I get stuck

Right now I'm almost done with Kapok Hearts, it just needs another hard session of writing to turn the token system into a pacing economy, and hopefully it'll be ready for playtesting.

Black Spike

@BESW Do you have play-testers? Another set of eyes to check things out?

BESW

@BlackSpike This chat provides a lot of great feedback!

So far the only game I've recently gotten to the playtest stage is Long Live the King of Monsters!, which some people in chat have playtested aggressively and are being very patient about waiting for the next revision.

Black Spike

@BESW That's good! (I always need feedback on my Apps ... I'm pretty isolated, so need someone else to glance over them)

BESW

@BlackSpike Oh yeah, I know that feeling. I've got a few people I show my professional designs to regularly, I really value being able to do that.

Black Spike

1:56 AM

@BESW Cool! Once I've finished smashing my head on the keyboard, and got my code to -work-, I am at a loss for "is this actually any good?". I need a wider "focus group"

BESW

I have found that sometimes printing it out and hanging it somewhere that I'm going to see it from across the room at unexpected times, can help if I don't have anyone else to bounce the idea off of.

Black Spike

interesting idea

BESW

Looking at it from far away forces me to see the composition as a whole rather than just the sum of its parts, and looking at it unexpectedly helps me see it from different perspectives and attitudes.

Black Spike

I actually made it to the pub last night (first time in ages!), and met up with one of my mates who's been helping me (online). I've had to rewrite a huge chunk of my latest app, and he's given good pointers . First thing he said was "Now you know why the Design Stage is so important" :D

A fresh perspective (either you own, seeing from a different angle, or another set of eyes) is always helpful

BESW

2:20 AM

I have to cultivate some local eyes, because while it's nice to show friends online, I'm designing for local audiences that have their own particular perspectives. I especially enjoy working with Indigenous scholars and artists.

Black Spike

ugh, is OMG o'clock. time to sleep

BESW

ttfn

V2Blast

2:41 AM

@BESW Lol, just because I'm of Indian descent doesn't mean I watch Bollywood movies. You'd have to ask my mom. :P

BESW

@V2Blast See? You've got access to human resources I don't!

V2Blast

lol

trogdor

3:08 AM

lol

V2Blast

Is there a tag that covers something like handouts?

trogdor

like a GM giving out free loot or something?

I don't,... think there is?

there are a few tags for types of items and loot

like Magic Items is a tag

BESW

@trogdor I think V2 means, like, the reference material the GM prints out for players to use at the table.

trogdor

oh

oooooh

Ben

Speaking of, Legacy is the first game I've seen that has a per-class character sheet. We have 4 players, and we each have different character sheets.

Shalvenay

3:27 AM

@Ben ah, never played anything PbtA?

@Ben also, mind describing Legacy a bit to me?

Ben

@Shalvenay I have not

Shalvenay

@Ben because PbtA games, as far as I have seen, basically do the same thing

Ben

So basically, in Legacy, world generation is done by the players, that come up with the cause of the apocalypse, the type of post apocalyptic world, landmarks, dangers etc, and "clans", that live in this post world.

Shalvenay

aaah

Ben

We have 4 players, so we have 4 clans, and one made by the GM, making 5 in total.

So in our game, one is a group of scientists, looking for old world tech and either rebuilding it, or destroying it, depending on whether they find it to be useful or dangerous.

Another is a group of seafarers, that have hidden out under the ocean in old subs and sunken ships, the separate themselves from the mutated creatures that live on the land.

There is also a society of anthropomorphic and sapient rodents and critters, living in a massive hive city.

And then mine was a group of nomadic, evangelistic-type cultists that believe that the whole world needs to burn, in order to rebuild it. "From the ashes, new growth shall prosper".

There's a bit of mucking around with inter-clan logistics... who has rivalries, and bonds, etc, then form there, players choose which of these clans they want to be a member of - either our own, or any of the ones they felt they wanted to be a part of that each f the other players came up with (we all chose to be members of our own clans).

The final step is picking a class. Hunter, Seeker, Sentinel, etc, and we are given a character sheet based on the class choice we make. Each class has specific abilities, statuses, etc.

So, we have a scientist, a scavenger, a pyromaniac and a sapient, anthropomorphic Capybara.

Shalvenay

3:40 AM

@Ben cuddles the anthro-capybara

Ben

There was a bit of an argument as to why a Capybara would be member of a society comprised of vermin and scorpions in trench-coats, but ultimately, since they are classified as "rodents", it made sense haha

And yes, the DM made a note of "2/3 scorpions in a trench coat". So I daresay we'll be seeing him at some point.

Shalvenay

@Ben would there be anthrosquirrels in their ranks as well? XD

because I'm sure that there are quite a few folks who'd call squirrels "vermin", and they're definitely rodents...

Ben

I'm not sure. Maybe they were the reason for the fallout...

Rick and Morty: Morty's Mind Blowers - Morty Talks to Squirrels

►

Shalvenay

@Ben squirrel gnaws wire, blows world up

The Ultimate Victory of CyberSqurrel1!

Glazius

@Ben One thing I like about Legacy is how it's willing to troupe it up. If the capybara wants to go do something nobody else particularly cares about, you can all make quick characters who look pretty sharp in their 1940s fedoras and play out a couple scenes.

(all from the capybara's clan, that is)

Ben

3:51 AM

@Glazius Yes, that was mentioned actually. It makes for quick one-off side adventures to switch it up every now and then.

V2Blast

4:17 AM

@BESW Correct. For instance, NPC statblocks for PCs to play (in 5e, I think SKT provides some of these in handouts), or other supplementary material for PCs to have access to (e.g. the Essentials Kit comes with handouts/cards for all the included quests and magic items). I searched afterwards and only found a few questions that included the word "handout" specifically", but maybe there's a slightly broader/different tag that covers the topic.

on a different note:

52

Q: How to randomly generate a village or town for old school D&D game?

There is a lot of material written on random generation of dungeons for play. But inevitably characters have to return from the to spend those ill-gotten gains. And where else but a nearby settlement, be it village, town, or city? Obviously the larger the settlement the more involved or recurs...

dungeons-and-dragons osr generator civilisation

This is a question from 2010. It got closed as a shopping/tool-rec question, but as mxy points out in a comment, the question itself asks for methods, not tools: "But does anyone have some good methods for quickly generating or stocking a village or town?"

The question itself seems fine, and exactly the sort of question we want people to ask. The issue, I think, is that all but one of the current answers (including the accepted one) are tool recommendations, and mostly don't include much more than a link to the resource.

BESW

4:48 AM

Hmm. I'll vote to re-open. How about leaving comments on each of the insufficient-if-the-link-dies answers asking for improvement, and maybe deleting the worst offenders?

Hot RPG Questions

6:20 AM

2

Q: What's so great about Shalantha's Delicate Disk?

In a recent comment, Hey I Can Chan mentions that he has found the spell Shalantha's Delicate Disk (Lost Empires of Faerun, p. 33) to be sufficiently powerful that he avoids using it when DMing due to balance concerns. What's so impressive about this spell? Is it: The ability to pre-cast spel...

spells dnd-3.5e

linksassin

6:41 AM

@V2Blast The props tag might be the closest thing we have.

V2Blast

7:00 AM

@linksassin Hmm... Doesn't seem like a great fit

linksassin

@V2Blast Agreed, but I don't know if we have anything better

V2Blast

yeah

linksassin

The line between handout and prop is kinda blurry. I take props as things made to look like they belong in the game. But handouts to be purely information.

However things like maps are a grey area.

kviiri

7:21 AM

Blurry lines are ok :)

BESW

7:43 AM

materiel

accoutrements kit paraphernalia tackle stuff-what-you-can-fiddle-with

A_S00

today in "tags that sound like euphemisms"

BESW

pull-it-out-and-bang-it-on-the-table-so-everyone-can-see?

Hot RPG Questions

9:40 AM

10

Q: Does a creature in flight affected by the Haste spell fall when the spell ends?

The final sentence of the Haste spell reads: When the spell ends, the target can't move or take Actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it. (PBH p. 250) If a creature such as a wyvern, pegasus, griffon, etc. is flying while hasted (that is, under the affect of ...

dnd-5e spells movement flight falling

Hot RPG Questions

10:40 AM

5

Q: Does a "melee spell attack" use my spellcasting ability, or my Strength?

The spell "Flame Blade" makes a fire sword that you can perform a melee spell attack with. As a druid with higher Wisdom, I would rather have it be based on that than my Strength, but I'm not sure if I would use my Wisdom or Strength, considering it is a 'melee spell attack. Would I use my Wisdo...

dnd-5e spells druid attack melee-combat

Shalvenay

11:31 AM

hey there @PierreCathé, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

Pierre Cathé

@Shalvenay Hi, been here a few times already but thanks for the welcome ;)

BESW

[wave]

Welcome back. What's new?

Pierre Cathé

@BESW Thanks, I've been helping my friends make their first D&D character sheets this weekend

BESW

Cool!

Someone_Evil

@PierreCathé What did they land on as a character?

Pierre Cathé

11:49 AM

@Someone_Evil One is playing a half-orc-turned-mercenary, one is a dragonborn despot who realised that oppressing people is wrong and left all of it behind to master martial arts, and one is a fish-esque tiefling who was raised by fishermen and after a catastrophe at sea was cursed with sinking any boat he steps on, and turned to the worship of Poseidon to seek forgiveness

One player still hasn't made their character

I'm going to run them through Curse of Strahd. I know it's not supposed to be a newbie adventure, but they have experience in another rpg system

So I figure they'll be fine after the intro mini-adventure that'll help them learn the system

BESW

12:09 PM

@PierreCathé What's the other system?

Pierre Cathé

@BESW Le Donjon de Naheulbeuk, a French free rpg

I was their GM weekly for about a year

kviiri

The intro adventure can be quite lethal. My party survived it without casualties, but two out of our four characters were unconscious and the other two had only one HP remaining each.

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri Yeah judging by their prior adventures, they'll need to learn caution as well

BESW

@PierreCathé I thought that was an audio series.

There's a game system?

kviiri

@PierreCathé I think the major lethalness factor there has little to do with caution, but that might help later on in the adventure.

Pierre Cathé

12:12 PM

@BESW Yeah, it started as an audio series parodying ttrpgs and the guy making it decided to make a freely downloadable rpg based on the series

BESW

Interesting. What kind of system is it?

Pierre Cathé

@BESW he went on to make comic books and novels about it, and is currently working on a video game adaptation

@kviiri Yeah I'm not yet ready to run it anyway, I'll work on that

@BESW It's based on the german rpg The Black Eye, using a d20 for challenges and several d6s for damage. The atmosphere is rather silly, with (optional) arbitrary cosmic punishments, cartoon-style villains and colorful npcs (who opens a tavern in the middle of a dungeon ?)

kviiri

From a player's POV, I felt the introductionary adventure that comes with CoS is one of those adventures where one might be screwed by taking too long, or be screwed by rushing in. And you only know which is the case when it's too late :)

BESW

Ah, yeah, I'm passingly familiar with TBE, from folx in this chat mostly.

Pierre Cathé

@kviiri Honestly I'll be gentle with them there, and if they get in over their heads I plan to give them a safe retreat

@kviiri my goal is not to kill them before the actual campaigns even begins

@BESW It's good fun really, and it's possible to do some more serious stories too if you're prepared to do a little world-building, but I don't enjoy that much and we've been through all of the free adventures so I steered them towards D&d and bought an adventure for that :)

BESW

12:21 PM

I'm toying with a homebrew Bike Kids system, mashing up Bubblegumshoe and Kids On Bikes with, I dunno, probably some super stripped-down version of Fate.

The goal is Encyclopedia Brown/Nancy Drew/Three Investigators style cozy play.

Pierre Cathé

Sounds fun, some kind of mystery investigation?

goodguy5

Hi team

@DavidCoffron could you look over this answer when you have time?

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/152136/34716

BESW

Yeah, low-key mysteries, no murders, probably not anything more than petty crime, bullying, that sort of thing?

goodguy5

and anyone else particularly crunch-savvy in 5e. I think that they've got a new best answer, but I'd like someone else to confirm.

BESW

I'll be using the Bubblegumshoe/Kids On Bikes collaborative worldbuilding/relationship mechanics, so the whole group will be deciding what it's gonna be like.

But I know this group likes to keep things low-stakes, focused on relationships.

Pierre Cathé

12:28 PM

Got it, so pretty roleplay-heavy

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer (171): Is there a list of wizard spells by level by school? by Ariana Antonio Grande on rpg.SE

BESW

@PierreCathé Very. One of the things I really like about Bubblegumshoe is that its mechanics push relationships heavily: there's a lot of stuff teenagers can't do because they don't have the skills or resources, and your relationships give you access to those things, but you have to spend time maintaining the relationships or they become strained and start to make problems for you instead.

This group has also been spending a lot of time playing Golden Sky Stories, where you get XP for being helpful and adorable, and you spend XP to increase your relationships which generate the points you need to improve skill checks and use mystical powers.

Pierre Cathé

Nice, I'll look it up

BESW

The rest of the Bubblegumshoe system is, I think, a bit over-engineered for the effects it produces. ALL skills use the "spend points to do extra cool stuff" system but there's no ludonarrative hook for regular skills that aren't rooted in relationships.

So you just wind up with a lot of bookkeeping. You can tell a system's overworked when a few years later they release two system variants which cut the whole points-per-skill mechanic and just say "you get three points per refresh, use 'em for whatever."

The Oracle

0

Q: How to handle sub-tags that lack appropriate parent tags?

So, a new user just posted a question that had the warlock tag, without any other tags. The warlock tag is defined as such, on its page: This tag is for questions pertaining to the D&D warlock class, in editions where it exists. I attempted to add the appropriate parent tag to the question ...

discussion tags

BESW

12:39 PM

@TheOracle We should take D&D out of the warlock tag wiki.

5

NautArch

@BESW That's not a bad idea :)

Someone_Evil

Either take D&D out, or include a note on it being applicable to other systems

BESW

A lot of tags have system-specific wikis that just wind up being wrong, I think generally it's a poor implementation.

goodguy5

Especially because I think warlock is a system

BESW

Every now and then we wind up with arguments about using a tag for a system other than the one in the wiki, even though the system the tag's being applied to does use that term.

I think we had some issues with tags for Fate terms that people couldn't imagine weren't used by other systems too.

@goodguy5 That does ring a dark glass, faintly.

goodguy5

12:43 PM

I've never seen those words together in that order, but I know what you mean.

BESW

Sorry, Fun With Idioms. "Ring a bell faintly" and "through a dark glass." Two idioms for vague impressions.

Anybody here read/played Kids On Bikes?

goodguy5

@BESW the closest I've been able to find so far is an old periodical for Fighting Fantasy under the name "Warlock".

BESW

I mean, at the very least all the D&D-likes, Pathfinder, 13th Age, Dungeon World, they've got warlocks.

goodguy5

I *THINK* I was thinking of this, a pc game:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlock:_Master_of_the_Arcane

Rubiksmoose

@BESW That was my thinking as well :)

goodguy5

12:54 PM

Ruf des Warlock

Ruf des Warlock (kurz: RdW) ist ein Fantasy-Rollenspiel, das 1990 zuerst von „Fantasy Games Bonn“, dem Entwicklerteam, und dann 1992 vom Games-In Verlag veröffentlicht wurde. RdW ist nach eigener Angabe „Ein Rollenspiel für Fortgeschrittene“, und richtet sich explizit nicht an Rollenspiel-Einsteiger. Das komplexe Regelwerk ist sehr eng an die Spielwelt Tanaris geknüpft, die zum großen Teil in Abenteuerbänden ausgebaut wird. Die Bücher des Rollenspiels stehen in dem Ruf, viele Anleihen von anderen Rollenspielen zu verwenden, sich eines eigentümlichen Humors zu bedienen und sehr viele Anglizismen…

also, google translate is garbage

"The Warlock's Call" is closer than "Call of Warlock" imo.

NautArch

I know it's technically not funny, but the meta on No, really. I'm playing 1e was kinda funny :)

goodguy5

And lastly, this obscure system:
https://rpggeek.com/rpg/9917/warlock-black-spiral

oh! And Wyverns and Warlocks.

BESW

I feel like TERRORSAUR is a game about warlocks but that's probably arguable.

Also they're immortal pterosaur warlocks so there's that.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Objectively the best kind of warlock.

kviiri

I was thinking on a "warlock" pun based on either locks as hair or access control device, which reminded me of captain Dread from Monkey Island II

BESW

1:02 PM

After you've played an immortal pterosaur warlock bent on vengeance against humanity for daring to claim it's not a dinosaur, any other kind of warlock just doesn't satisfy the same way it used to.

G. Moylan

morning, everyone

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch minor suggestion: if you could fit the idea of requiring OP to explicitly give us system info I think your answer will cover all of the querent's concerns. Your edits thus far have made my in-progress answer pointless and that would be the only thing at this point that I might have stressed a bit more. (even though removing the system stuff from non-system tags is the long-term solution to that being an issue, we still need a short term policy on that)

kviiri

Hi

Rubiksmoose

@G.Moylan Morning!

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I thought it was explicit, but I want heavy handed now :) HOw's that?

@kviiri howdy!

@G.Moylan top o the morn!

Rubiksmoose

1:07 PM

@NautArch Perfect!

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose @Someone_Evil brings up a good point. DO we need a meta to update the warlock tag or can someone with rights just go and do it?

Someone_Evil

I'm guessing such a discussion might want to establish a policy/guideline to not have system specific non-system tags in general and that we should clean up the old ones. There's a good chance there are more than the warlock tag that needs a washing.

Pierre Cathé

It might be useful to update the text on the "Ask a question" page to actually say that system-tagging is required, because it currently doesn't. Worse, the grey tags in the box that serve as an example don't include a system tag

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch From my POV for just this tag this meta should suffice. It's not a big change and voting on this answer should suffice as community acceptance on that point. If someone wanted to doublecheck their wording or ask for improvements a Meta certainly wouldn't hurt.

G. Moylan

@Someone_Evil I noticed the various warhammer tags are a bit of a mess, the other day. They need some work to bring up to standard. some of them have blank wikis. I was going to do it this past weekend but I had a lot going on

kviiri

1:16 PM

So my big brother's first DnD session went on for like, 10 or so hours, including chargen. Not sure if they had any session zero stuff or so

Rubiksmoose

@PierreCathé Well system tagging isn't actually required though. Only for questions that need a system.

kviiri

I got only rather slim details of him but he noted that he had really shoddy luck with his attacks, except with improvised weapon stuff like rolling a beer keg at a foe.

Rubiksmoose

@PierreCathé Related suggestion: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/7681/…

NautArch

@kviiri that's always a bummer. A night of bad rolls can be unfun.

goodguy5

I want a game where you play as warlords, but like many old non-anglo-saxon cultures, approval from the matriarchs was required before the war could begin.

If you failed, the campaign remains locked.

War-lock

David Coffron

1:20 PM

@goodguy5 Looks right at first glance. Double checking in a spreadsheet in my own way ;)

nitsua60

@Someone_Evil any single edit is certainly something that an editor could go and do, but if the thought is to do a widespread effort to remove "system restrictions" from tags then that should probably be its own meta. Something like "here's the issue, here's what I see problematic about it, here's a list of tags that I'm proposing should be edited." — nitsua60 ♦ 2 mins ago

Pierre Cathé

@Rubiksmoose But questions that don't require a system should be tagged [system-agnostic] shouldn't they ?

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron Thanks, boo.

@PierreCathé I think there's a meta somewhere about "should we require system tags?"

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 Moreover, I actually think such a proposal would probably be a really good one to hash out on meta.

goodguy5

Which I think the answer should be "yes, or sys-ag"

Pierre Cathé

1:22 PM

@goodguy5 Yeah I'm reading through it

Rubiksmoose

That tag does have a bit of a messy history though.

@PierreCathé That get's a bit hairy. But the long and short of it is that no we don't require the SA tag on all questions not about a particular system.

NautArch

@goodguy5 That's an interesting question. Does "i'm not concerned about a specific system" also mean "applies to any system?"

Pierre Cathé

@goodguy5 that answer is actually downvoted : rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/7686/45757

goodguy5

@NautArch Then a third option. "non-system" or something

Pierre Cathé

@Rubiksmoose Yeah I can see that

nitsua60

1:23 PM

I want the SA tag on questions that are about system-agnosticism, not on questions that are trying to tell people how to answer. Not sure that's a majority opinion, but it's strongly held in these hooves.

NautArch

I'm kinda of shocked that i haven't found a question asking "what is an action" for 5e.

nitsua60

Because tags are supposed to describe what the question's about, not dictate the form of an answer.

goodguy5

@nitsua60 I don't understand

Rubiksmoose

@PierreCathé oh man, that was my first meta answers lol

nitsua60

@goodguy5 putting dnd-5e on a question doesn't tell someone how to answer, it tells readers what the question is about. Most people answer with 5e experience, but there's no prohibition on answering "I have the same problem when I play $foo, here's how we've solved it, here's how I can know it'll be helpful to you."

goodguy5

1:30 PM

right.... I agree

I feel like I missed something.

Are you for or against tag requiring?

nitsua60

But often in the history of system-agnostic people (posters, commenters, voters) seem to be arguing that the tag should mean "I'm looking for answers that don't mention system." That's not the question being about something indicated by the tag, that's the tag trying to force answers into a certain shape.

@goodguy5 I am for tags describing the content of questions.

goodguy5

you can't blame the tag for people's usage of it.

and I also agree.

nitsua60

If we had a rule "any question not mentioning one of [this list] must have sys-ag," then lots of questions would be tagged sys-ag for no good reason. Why should "how do I calculate X in anydice" be tagged sys-ag? It's not about anything sys-ag.

Pierre Cathé

It seems like nothing concrete came from that meta discussion, even though most people on there seem to agree that something should be done, maybe the question should be discussed again ?

kviiri

@nitsua60 I agree with this. I think some stuff is so fundamentally detached of existing systems, eg. that Anydice example or something "What game introduced <element X>" that sys-ag would just feel weird.

BESW

1:36 PM

Urrrrgh not the system tag / system agnostic tag debate again. It's so messy, nobody seems able to dig down and clearly define their assumptions.

Pierre Cathé

@BESW sorry for digging that up, it just seemed to me like it was almost always the first thing a new user is told (after welcome) and maybe a better UI could help

BESW

Like, any discussion of sys-ag has to start with a clear understanding that the way Role-playing Games handles system tags is an exception to standard tag protocol, because if we call system-agnostic a system tag then we're bringing all those exceptions into play and I honestly don't think anybody actually wants that.

goodguy5

@nitsua60 Then we need more tags to group questions into.

system, sysag, calculations (or dice or whatever)

as many as it takes.

BESW

Also I'm seeing more people talking about parent/child tagging and that is not a thing.

But clearly I am too grumpy for this conversation, all my holding-my-mouth-right spoons have gone into other things recently. So I'll bow out.

NautArch

@BESW Thanks to Rubiks/Nits, I addressed that in my answer ;)

Is it bad that I dislike questions that may be considered 'cheese'? The twisting of rules to do things that we know we really shouldn't.

goodguy5

1:41 PM

@NautArch only if you downvote them

nitsua60

@BESW Actually (and unfortunately, IMO), the highest-voted answer on the meta How is the sys-ag tag supposed to be used really seems to argue that sys-ag should be treated like a system tag.

Pierre Cathé

Honestly I wasn't trying to start a debate over system-agnostic, just to allow new users to know that they are expected to tag questions about a specific game beforehand

NautArch

@goodguy5 I can vote how I want, durnit!

nitsua60

@BESW Have a good evening/night!

goodguy5

@NautArch I don't want to sling around downvotes, but your drunk answer seems like.... not an answer.

nitsua60

1:43 PM

@NautArch Nope. Now, if you didn't like actual cheese, that might raise some eyebrows....

BESW

@NautArch I understand the appeal of cheese from a system mastery perspective, and I think it's valuable to know where your system breaks regardless of whether you want to break it (treading lightly is only possible if you know where the weak spots are!), but I also do have a personal dislike for the... gleefulness... that pervades some cheese discussions.

nitsua60

@PierreCathé No worries! Conversation's good =)

NautArch

@goodguy5 It's a frame challenge. It didn't belong as a comment, but it was important enough for me to want to post.

I also didn't want to say "don't do this", because they may be okay with it. BUt it's the core of their concept and I think it's likely to be problematic.

BESW

@PierreCathé It's a legit problem that's been ongoing for a while, it's good to get fresh eyes on it!

NautArch

@BESW And I think there's a difference between fun cheese and cheese that just pushes boundaries because.

@nitsua60 Heck no. I gave up alcohol because of migraines but I won't give up cheese.

BESW

1:46 PM

@NautArch <insert "my grain alcohol" joke here>

goodguy5

^ha!

Sir Cinnamon

Morning folks

BESW

Oh gosh it is almost technically morning.

goodguy5

@NautArch Hrm... I'm still not sold, but the current question is "review" not "is this balanced", so you get a pass.

BESW

I probably shouldn't have taken that afternoon nap.

KorvinStarmast

1:47 PM

@BESW Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? The Seven Samurai (but toss in a little magic/Kami influence?)

Sir Cinnamon

any nap after 3pm is dangerous

NautArch

@goodguy5 My answer is an implicit "don't do this". But some folks really like that level of management so I didn't want to say it explicitly. But I still feel like (and OP seems to agree) that this may not be as simple as it seems.

nitsua60

Speaking of morning, I've got a bit of 5e headcanon to share: the reason charges on magic items (and many other features) refresh at dawn is that the magical north pole isn't quite aligned with the rotational north pole. So the magical north pole traces out a circle on the Weave every day. There's one strand of the Weave that sits a bit proud of the rest, so the magical north pole "twangs" on it once a day, sending a magical surge through the Weave.

3

KorvinStarmast

@BESW you can also tap into Persian and Meso American heroic and literary traditions, as MAR Barker did in Empire of the Petal Throne.

BESW

@NautArch So, like... flavored cream cheese is fun, but casu marzu is just too far?

goodguy5

1:51 PM

@nitsua60 that only works for globes

but still interesting

nitsua60

@goodguy5 Or discs?

Carcer

@nitsua60 if you're gonna get weavey the canonical answer to why anything magical in FR behaves the way it does is that Mystra died

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Wait, I thought that the default D&D world was flat? (recalibration necessary)

goodguy5

@nitsua60 Reese's Cup shape, actually. (my homebrew world)

nitsua60

Or, really, anything rotating? Or anything in a cosmology that has a daily cycle? It could be the sun twanging the weave, if your sun moves to create days and nights?

Carcer

1:52 PM

hang on

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I go with topologically-toroidal, locally spherical.

Carcer

does 5e's fluff actually expand the concept of the weave to beyond FR?

BESW

My version of the Points of Light setting had the Material Plane as a convex disc, like Captain America's shield.

Carcer

because in my head the Weave is an FR-exclusive setting detail

NautArch

@BESW Yeah, not fun when it's based on bugs :)

KorvinStarmast

1:53 PM

@nitsua60 The sun rises and sets. As with some ancient mythological traditions, it s pulled across the sky by a chariot driven by (some wonderful being). That being's horses leave hoof beats, which hit a resonant frequency of the Weave

@Carcer Technically in terms of 5e mechanics, from Chapter 10, no, but the Weave did start in FR IIRC.

Carcer

it's definitely original to FR yes

BESW

@nitsua60 New headcanon: magic effects refresh because Ra trips over the reset button on his way back to the sky from the underworld after fighting Apep all night.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Or, Ra sighs after his fight with Apep, and the force of his exhalation moves the weave to recharge wands.

(I like that better than clumsy-Ra as headcanon)

Carcer

okay yeah, 5e seems to use the weave generically after noting that it's what FR specifically calls raw magic

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Well, in that case, the world is a donut.

goodguy5

1:56 PM

TIL that the shape of a Reese Cup is a ridged Frustum

Carcer

I must note that if Ed Greenwood was responsible for this headcanon we'd probably be one letter away from twanging the weave

Pierre Cathé

@KorvinStarmast Or Ra makes a new sun every day and recycles the old one to power wands

Carcer

@PierreCathé green energy

that's one way to stop global warming

KorvinStarmast

@PierreCathé Works for me. With Ra, you get value for your worship! X^D

BESW

@Carcer <insert hair insert joke ~~hair~~ here>

Carcer

1:59 PM

@BESW pffbt

goodguy5

Thank you....

New lore in my world

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