TRPG General Chat

Rubiksmoose

4:00 PM

@NautArch just a heads up rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150919/…

goodguy5

@NautArch I'll add in those racial feats after lunch

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, that line doesn't qualify for much. It could remove my downvote, but i' inclined to leave it because i'm ornery :P

Rubiksmoose

hahaha completely fair. Just didn't know if you had noticed.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose My other comment I think may be applicable as an answer. However, I've really only done one pseudo-dungeoncrawl so don't feel good about submitting an answer. But wanting to include dangers during passage seems very dungeon-y. It's just that your dungeon is a trek through the wilderness.

@Rubiksmoose Thanks also for leaving the request for support comment up.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch of course! Thanks for leaving it in the first place!

Mark Wells

4:11 PM

Not entirely sure if my followup to that Mage Hand question would be considered tasteless; if anyone's bothered by it, please say something and I'll revise it.

NautArch

@MarkWells It's not tasty, but it's not tasteless :).

And I'm also not sure it's not a dupe. While you aren't 'taking' the belt (or whatever is holding up their pants), you are also just manipulating and dropping it which seems functionally equivalent.

My gut says this is fine in roleplay situations, but would have no mechanical impact in combat. But I also haven't used it as such so won't answer it.

Hot RPG Questions

4:30 PM

6

Q: How can characters/players identify that a polymorphed dragon is a dragon?

Many dragons (e.g. ancient gold dragons) can polymorph using the Change Shape action: Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it...

NautArch

@MarkWells And now I"m thinking about mage hand wedgies. Thanks Mark.

Mark Wells

@NautArch /bow

A wedgie is definitely an attack, though.

What I'm thinking about is Mage Hand for changing diapers.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah I don't think I've ever run or played anything relevant here. Which seems odd because you'd think it would be a bit more common maybe?

@MarkWells You're thinking of Maid Hand

Mark Wells

(I don't trust my baby's delicate skin to Prestidigitation.)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I think most folks tend to let travel be travel. I've set up a recurring monster attack issue in my world with Aarokocra, but it's really as relevant. THey're just aerial bandits basically.

and my players haven't done much travel...yet.

Which is odd, because they've made some real enemies in the town their in.

The bard thought it would be a good idea to rip off some beggars.

Rubiksmoose

4:34 PM

@NautArch Oh dear lol.

Mark Wells

@NautArch "All the beggars turn into werewolves. Roll initiative."

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah. The beggar king basically forced them to do a job for him as recompense. Which they nearly borked but ended up successful by pure luck. So now they have a benefactor who will want to hire them again.

Of course, they're also in debt to the capt of the guard because she resurrected the bard (because he did something stupid and got himself killed...with help from party members opting not to revive him).

And she did that so she could get them under her thumb to get some off-the-books jobs done.

off-the-books-story-driven-jobs

@MarkWells Ha! i'm much sneakier than that :)

He had zero reason to do it, just wanted to be clever and funny. My plan was originally to have the beggars act like Holmes' Baker Street Irregulars.

But then he made them an enemy isntead of an asset.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch of course! What else would a reasonable PC do?

NautArch

@MarkWells They actually moved further into the Beggar king's territory and were confronted by a few thugs who asked why they were messing with the kids. The rest of the party knew nothing, so engage fight. And then there were several dead thugs in the streets.

Mage in the Barrel

hey i have a rather weird alignment question if someone actively tryies to help but only makes things worse every time they do so what alignment would they be.

G. Moylan

4:41 PM

@MageintheBarrel alignment is fake news /s

Mage in the Barrel

yes i know alignment is dumb but it is on character sheets so it still matters

G. Moylan

@MageintheBarrel if they're trying to do good, then it seems good to me. The end results don't enter into it, it's more about the actions

Mark Wells

@NautArch I'm not sneakier than that, and session 3 started with the party finding the gnawed bones of their characters from session 2. :)

Rubiksmoose

@MageintheBarrel [joking] Good-natured Clumsy?

NautArch

@MageintheBarrel Then they're likely moving into "My Guy" territory.

@MarkWells bahahahaha. LOVE IT.

@MarkWells Session 2 TPK? Dang. What level were they?

Mage in the Barrel

4:43 PM

more like brroken values like fae in traditional mythology even when they try to "help" their viewpoint is so different that their help becomes descructive

Mark Wells

@NautArch level 1. actually not a TPK, they also found the one guy who escaped

he was level 2 now

and a werewolf

NautArch

@MarkWells Level 1 is crazy easy to die. THat's when the bard nearly died. I wanted to give hte party an option to bring him back, but also create a plot hook. They took it.

Mage in the Barrel

like in 1 anime the fae literally tries to kidnap a sickly girl and bring her to tir na nog because it'll stop her condition from getting worse

Rubiksmoose

@MageintheBarrel Honestly they could be any alignment. Helping someone doesn't necessarily mean you are doing a good thing. Helping cultists sacrifice the town is not a good act. Could easily be good or neutral for the same reasons. Similarly, lawful and chaotic have no real interaction here either and could reasonably be argued to be anything depending on the exact circumstances and who is arguing it.

NautArch

@MageintheBarrel THe important thing to think about when figuring out alignment/interactions is how it's going to impact the party. If your actions are going to frustrate, then it's quite possible that you're entering into My Guy territory. We've got a player who is clearly on this end of things with all of his characters.

Rubiksmoose

4:46 PM

This sounds more like a simple character trait that helps to define what kinds of things the PC likes to do, but has nothing to do with alignment.

Mage in the Barrel

i don't plan to play one i just thought it'd make an interesting character

NautArch

And it's really frustrating to play with him.

@MageintheBarrel Remember: Interesting needs to be interesting and fun for you AND the table.

Mage in the Barrel

not from a playable standpoint that'd just be a headache for everyone

NautArch

@MageintheBarrel If it's a headache for everyone, then it's unlikely it's fun for them.

Unless they enjoy headaches.

goodguy5

oh hey, @MageintheBarrel, how's the dual character going?

Mage in the Barrel

4:47 PM

interesting on paper but not fun in practice

i got kicked out of my group on the first day

goodguy5

oh no!

what happened?

Mage in the Barrel

the day after the first session i mean

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Hmm, I'd rather not contribute to the "open close" churn at this point.

Mage in the Barrel

I had no idea what the rules were cause I assumed that they'd explain them when we started and had a horrible case of my guy

so i got kicked out

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast If anything, I'd say just try and edit the question to not be casting a net and more asking for usable approaches? Or something.

goodguy5

4:49 PM

aw, poor thing

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between "my guy" and "no, you guys are being unreasonable"

Mage in the Barrel

i'm a weirdo whos attracted to misfortime so it doesn't bother me to much

it was definetly my guy

the main reason why I was attracted to my first gf was cause she was the near embodiment of misfortune

whereas I'm stupidly lucky

Rubiksmoose

New table problem: Whose Guy Syndrome — when the players get their character sheets all messed up and can't figure out who is who.

4

goodguy5

I had this contract mercenary I was playing.

The party agreed to go look for (and retrieve) a scroll or bauble of some kind. We found it and it was clearly magical.

The party wanted to mess around with it, but I wanted to return it, because that was the contract. So I snagged it and ran off.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Okay everyone! Hand your sheet to the person to your left. Roll Initiative.

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose Who's Guy is it anyway?

Mage in the Barrel

4:52 PM

literally the only time I experience misfurtune is when I bring it on myself

goodguy5

@MageintheBarrel like some kind of self shaudenfreude

Mage in the Barrel

no idea what that is

Rubiksmoose

@MageintheBarrel Well that's almost certainly not true! There are plenty of things that are out of our control. We all make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them and be better next time :)

Mage in the Barrel

I sometimes wonder if I suck the fortune out of others given how unlucky my parents are

NautArch

We are mostly captains of our own ships. But unknown shoals do appear. We can try to be careful, but things happen in life that are way out of our control. What we can try and do is manage our own actions as much as possible.

Mage in the Barrel

4:54 PM

and brother

Mark Wells

@NautArch We had that happen once. PC got killed, his ghost possessed another PC. It was interesting for a while, then the player decided he was bored with that character and wanted to start a new one. It became kind of a train wreck.

goodguy5

@MageintheBarrel are you a kismetomancer?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Musical character sheets actually sounds like a kind of crazy mechanic for a 200 word RPG type of thing. Hmmm....

Mage in the Barrel

yeah but when things are out of my control they work out more often than not

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah, that's a way ahead.

NautArch

4:55 PM

@Rubiksmoose I want to say someone had one like that. But I can't remember.

Mark Wells

@Rubiksmoose It's a little like the concept of Better Angels, where you're playing your own character, and also the shoulder devil of the player next to you.

Mage in the Barrel

and I'm very good at predicting stuff so I'm generally preapred

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Although I do think it's clear what they're asking and how to answer. The key now is keeping answers on track.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch At the conceptual level in terms of 'how to think like a DM" I recognize what the asker is looking for. :)

NautArch

5:06 PM

Have a game night tonight. DM asked us if we had our heights/weights written down...

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch RL or in game?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast IN game...but one guy answered with his RL.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh In your goodwill economy question .... I've been thinking of making goodwill 'decay' with time, but I'm worried that would be a downside with no meaningful upside for the character For what it's worth, I think that's a majorly good idea. The gamfication of it, though, may be system sensitive. (IIRC you tend towards GURPS?)

NautArch

4'2, 48lbs. THe party is mostly small creatures.

KorvinStarmast

AH, not RL.

NautArch

5:10 PM

@KorvinStarmast definitely not RL :)

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Our Bugbear 1st level Temptest Cleric got one shotted last night when I was DMing. Harpy rolled two 20's and got a 6 on both damage rolls. Cleric goes down, but we ran into the "when does a reaction interrupt an attack" question. I ruled that the Wrath went off. He rolled a 14 as he fell unconscious. Didn't kill the Harpy, but it sure hurt her.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Bludfont's cousin!

@KorvinStarmast yeah, those are tricky. We tend to let those work, too.

KorvinStarmast

Yes, and he's a real fun player to engage with. We were players together in a previous game, he was barb/druid and me CHampion Fighter.

I looked at our q's and a's on that and I find it "too close to call" so I ruled in favor of hte cool cinematid effect. :)

BOOM went the thunder damage as the cleric went down. "Ouch!" cried the Harpy, shaking her head a bit from the blow ...

NautArch

I think the same thing happened to our tempest cleric and we let it slide. But he also may not have siad he was down first :P

KorvinStarmast

What we were scartching our heads over was "is the damage roll part of the attack roll, and thus should he be unconscious and not taking a reaction, or is the "instant" feature overriding ... so I said "BOOM! It activates" and we played on.

vicky_molokh

5:15 PM

@KorvinStarmast GURPS or FATE. But I'm approaching the matter for a 'system-pluggable' angle, much like space credits and gold coins. Starting with thinking how the thing is supposed to look on the abstract layer, and only make the pluggy bits system-informed.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Our player is one I kinda snapped at the session prior. He's been playing with us for over a year and he was still asking "What do I roll for an attack?" and getting his DC info wrong.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh OK, well in that case, at the abstract level, I am even more infavor of it. Gives the PC's an incentive to enage/earn that 'currency" so to speak. A reason to "go and do interesting and helpful things"

@NautArch Is this one of those "put your cell phone down please" kind of players?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Not really. Just one who never really invested any time in learning the rules or his character. But tried to steal stuff in a magic shop in his first session. DM put the kaibosh on that.

kviiri

I can't offer a full answer but I wrote a seminar paper on distributed trust management and I think some of those ideas might be fun to implement as a model of reciprocality in a game.

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri distributed trust management is an intriguing thought / concept. For some reason, my instinct is to say "if you are dealing in trust, management seems to be contra that very concept ..."

A trust relationship is a particular thing, not quite like a contractual relationship.

Even though it seems to also deal in "quid pro quo" elements ...

kviiri

5:20 PM

@KorvinStarmast It got a lot more intuitive for me once I figured that that's how we humans have done it for ages --- we've had some approximations of a centralized trust system but most of how we decide to trust or distrust a person comes from what we personally observe them doing, and what other people that we trust tell us they think about them.

KorvinStarmast

Sounds like a paper I'd like to read. Interesting points there.

But I have to return to real life. shakes fist at the heavens Curse you, RL!

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast This is a major part of it, yes --- in order for distributed trust management to work, people have to share information, but sharing information also compromises a bit of one's privacy. If I tell my friends, or more riskily a stranger that Gary Gray is not to be trusted, I could get in trouble if Gary hears of it. And that's even likely if the stranger happens to be a friend or a co-conspirator of Gary :)

Hence the systems tend to go so that disclosing more information earns you more information.

(at this point I should say that I don't know many places where systems like these are actually applied! Maybe some Torrent networks?)

SmokeDetector

5:38 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted website in answer, link at end of answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (239): How can I get a player to accept that they should stop trying to pull stunts without thinking them through first? by pateljee on rpg.SE

NautArch

5:50 PM

@MarkWells What happened to the pantsing? :(

Mark Wells

6:10 PM

@NautArch I fought reductionism and reductionism won.

NautArch

@MarkWells I"m sorry...was it my pushing for non-mechanical?

Mark Wells

I'm taking some time to rethink it.

NautArch

I think it's a good question either way, to be honest.

I don't think I can submit an actual answer, but I'd probably rule that Mage Hand Legerdemain would be able to do it in a non-mechanical fashion. Maybe even in a emcahnical one.

Mark Wells

The intent of the question is really "If you're the DM, and I say 'I cast Mage Hand and yank the Archbishop's pants down to his ankles', what happens next?"

NautArch

but not a standard mage hand.

@MarkWells I think that's opinion-based...maybe. But I think you start off with can you do it at all. Interacting with individual items is always a bit wonky in 5e.

Xirema

6:19 PM

TBH, I'm struggling to think of good reasons I wouldn't allow a Spellcasting Check contested by Dexterity or Strength (with Athletics) to try to trip someone with Mage Hand. 10 pounds can be quite a lot if well utilized.

Mark Wells

6:30 PM

@Xirema The good reason that comes to mind is "because then everyone would do it all the time". It would be as effective as using an attack, but with a 30-foot range.

NautArch

^

I"d also still very much only consider legerdemain to work anything like this.

It very much seems like a 'trickster' move, and not a mage hand move.

Mark Wells

That, or I'd consider an Eldritch Knight version of legerdemain that lets you do magical jujitsu with a mage hand.

NautArch

@MarkWells Ooh. Yeah, I'd consider that, too. But then wizards may complain that everyone but them gets it.

Xirema

Two reasons why it wouldn't be:

1. A "Spellcasting Ability Check" never allows anyone (except Bards) to add Proficiency to the roll
2. It consumes your whole action, whereas the traditional Shove Attack Action only consumes one attack.

NautArch

but still, as a wizard I'd generally rather do damage just knock someone prone.

Mark Wells

6:34 PM

I shed a single salty tear for a thing wizards don't get.

NautArch

@MarkWells hahaha. Yeah, im really enjoying my wizard so far.

Xirema

@NautArch Also this.

Carcer

it's all situational innit

the vagaries of the initiative order are such that knocking someone prone might be a better use of your action than hitting them

NautArch

@Xirema Actions are valuable, and knocking prone isn't that valuable. But I play at a table with flanking, so advantage is easier to get and it doesn't mess with the ranged attackers.

Carcer

also, mage hand doesn't consume any of your limited spell resources to use

NautArch

6:35 PM

@Carcer just your action, which is valuable.

Carcer

@NautArch Yes. But granting your melee monsters advantage on all attacks until the start of the enemy's next turn might well be a better use of your action than 1-4d10 damage.

NautArch

@Carcer RIght, but that's where our use of flanking comes in. If they're close enough to hit, the're likely flanking and have advantage anyway.

Carcer

yeah, if you're using flanking it doesn't really mean so much.

V2Blast

I wonder if they playtested any of the suggested "action options" and such that they put in the DMG before they published it

Xirema

Giving [on average, half] your allies Advantage works out to something like a 15%-30% DPR improvement for each character that makes a [melee] attack, at the expense of your own action.

NautArch

6:38 PM

I'm also not sure generally that I'd give a mage hand the power to push. It's still just 10lbs that it can lift. A high spellcasting modifier implies more if going against someone's athletics/acrobatics.

Xirema

In a party of 5 or 6 players, I guess that would work out to being good enough to use.

NautArch

@Xirema It also kinda turns into a free grease.

Xirema

But in a party of 3-4 players, I think it would be far more situational, since the odds that your personal DPR is less than 7.5%-15% of the rest of the party combined is... questionable.

@NautArch One you have to keep using your action to invoke, though.

Mark Wells

@NautArch One that you can't set on fire, though. :)

Xirema

@MarkWells Well, you can't set the Grease spell on fire either....

Mark Wells

6:42 PM

@NautArch To keep this in perspective, a lifting capacity of 10 lbs corresponds to a Strength of less than 1. Good luck tripping anyone with that.

NautArch

@Xirema okay fine. A free Earth Tremor.

@MarkWells I will cut you :P

@Xirema 'twas a joke.

Mark and I differ on how we approach creative usage, and that's okay. Especially if we give each other a good natured hard time about it.

@MarkWells Woof. Really?

Mark Wells

Isn't it? 15 lbs per point?

NautArch

If that's the case, then definitely no to spellcasting vs acro/athletics.

GcL

@MarkWells I've seen professional sports players trip over painted lines! /S

NautArch

@GcL that's a fumble.

Mark Wells

6:45 PM

@NautArch If you wanted to create some kind of an obstacle with it, like pull up a loose floorboard or a rope, I'd handle that as a trap, and give you a Dex save to avoid it

GcL

@NautArch They were clearly pointing out to the referee that the line jumped up and grabbed them. They seemed very emphatic and upset over the issue.

Xirema

@MarkWells Appears to be about a 2.5% chance

NautArch

@MarkWells Like in GcLs answer?

Or something to actually go prone?

Xirema

I would argue that a wizard trying to use Mage Hand to trip someone is going to be a lot more competent than a 1Strength attacker trying to trip someone.

Because tripping someone isn't about pure force, it's about how that force is applied.

V2Blast

@MarkWells carrying capacity is 15 lbs per point of Strength. Push/drag/lift is up to twice that, though speed is reduced to 5 feet if above carrying capacity

Mark Wells

6:51 PM

How many people has he tripped this way? Do they teach this technique in wizard school?

Carcer

Yeah, but ten pounds of force is... really extremely little

for anything larger than medium size it's probably utterly inconsequential no matter how well-placed it is

Xirema

Hmm. I'm willing to bet that if I secretly strapped a ten pound weight to someone's shoe while they weren't paying attention, I could trip them at least 10% of the time.

NautArch

@Xirema But you can't choose to 'trip'/shove someone with Dex. It's always strength.

Mark Wells

@Xirema Next question, can you tie someone's shoelaces together with Mage Hand?

NautArch

@Xirema isn't that...grappling?

Xirema

6:55 PM

@NautArch It's the same Ability Check contest. XD

Strength(Althletics) vs Opponent's Strength(Athletics) or Dexterity(Acrobatics)

David Coffron

@Xirema I don't know about that. Almost certainly stumble, but I think (unless that person is break into a sprint), they would catch themselves

NautArch

@Xirema Totally fine then. What did we decide on mage hand's strength? -4 modifier?

Xirema

@DavidCoffron 90% of the time, I agree. ;)

@NautArch -4 or -5.

NautArch

@Xirema And there's the problem of a shove/grapple being an attack. Which mage hand can't do.

Mark Wells

@NautArch Right, but (and here's where you and I might be incomprehensible to each other), why can't it? What about it makes it unsuitable for attacking?

goodguy5

6:59 PM

I think it says it can't

Mark Wells

I model it as being incapable of delivering enough power. It can push things, but it can't strike them.

Xirema

@NautArch I mean the RAW definitely prevents it. No argument here.

NautArch

@MarkWells Yup :)

But let's go with maybe for discussion's sake.

Mage hand in general is a utility spell for wizards. Turning it into a combat option makes it much better.

A must have, rather than just an option.

goodguy5

@MarkWells The hand can't attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds

NautArch

@goodguy5 @MarkWells It being unable to activate a magic item is kinda weird. That doesn't take much force.

PUsh this button on the immovable rod. No. Well, bugger off, mage hand.

Mark Wells

7:01 PM

@NautArch I have to assume magical items know whether there's a live hand on them or not. It's not just a button, it's a ritual object.

goodguy5

@NautArch If nothing else, it's to prevent people from activating magic items remotely

NautArch

@MarkWells ooh, that's a good point.

Mark Wells

Like a touchscreen, but instead of capacitance, it responds to your soul :)

NautArch

@MarkWells ohno. we talking souls now? :D

goodguy5

What if I attune a magic item specifically to my mage hand? and it takes a slot?

Mark Wells

7:03 PM

I'd totally let you do that, if you agree not to activate it with your real hand. I like Skerples' idea of cantrips as special-purpose extra limbs attached to your soul.

NautArch

@MarkWells I"d also probably limit it to items without attunement.

David Coffron

@MarkWells What if my sever my mage hand for the Hand of Vecna?

GcL

@MarkWells I think the wizarding term is 'umph'. There's only so much 'umph' that can be put into a cantrip. All the mage hand umph goes into lifting objects and turning door knobs.

David Coffron

@NautArch Maybe not, but perhaps the button only registers if you have a certain amount of impulse (maybe the mage hand moves at a constant speed regardless of the weight of the object it is manipulating)

GcL

Seems like a lot of space here for some home brew cantrips. Hand of the Bruce cantrip: spell attack for 1d8 bludgeoning.

goodguy5

7:15 PM

"Mage fist, no, not bixby's"

GcL

@NautArch Does the arcane trickster grant you a mage hand that can use magic objects? or is that just pick locks and pockets at range?

NautArch

@goodguy5 Yeah, that's true as well. If you want mage hand to knock things down, you want Bixby.

David Coffron

@NautArch Bixby just made a way to channel more of The Weave into a mage hand xD

GcL

Bigby ?

David Coffron

@GcL THat's the romanized spelling ;)

NautArch

7:17 PM

@GcL Bill Bixby. My little martian.

or david banner. whomever you prefer.

goodguy5

@GcL haha, I was just talking to someone about my samsung "assistant", bixby. My mistake

Rubiksmoose

@GcL Nah, haven't you heard of all the Samsung-themed spells?

NautArch

@GcL doesn't look like that's one of hte options.

Mark Wells

@GcL "Witch Slap"

GcL

@MarkWells There's a lot of Lee-way in the spell, so sure.

NautArch

7:19 PM

criminy. Why is a standard micro form factor optiplex cheaper than a thin client?

David Coffron

@NautArch What? That is more nouns that I don't know the meaning of to even context my way through xD

Carcer

I cast ~~Samsung's Note 7~~ Fire Bolt!

David Coffron

@Carcer Ooph

Although it is probably a great example of heat metal

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch When it comes to knocking things over, I prefer my Banners in the Bruce variety.

william porter

or Spontaneous Immolation

Mark Wells

7:22 PM

@DavidCoffron Good question! Grafting the Hand of Vecna directly onto your soul is maybe not the best idea, but I'm liking "permanently sacrifice a cantrip" as a cost for things.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Like this?:

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Hahahaha so close.

NautArch

Sometimes I think Kryan puts up challenging answers just to have us think differently - which I think is kinda cool.

Carcer

I think he just has strong opinions about game design

NautArch

7:38 PM

@Carcer My biggest concern with them is he foists those strong opinions, and sometimes does so at the expense of other opinions. I just tried to address that here.

Carcer

Mmm. He has strong opinions about design and balance, he has experience to back them up, but he's very stubborn and not afraid of stating his mind in extremely blunt ways. It seems to have gotten him in trouble before.

NautArch

@Carcer But there are definitely folks who agree. My biggest problem with that answer is that he's proposing a homebrew barbarian without actually saying he's tried it. I'm debating about forcing that point, but I'm not sure it's worth my time/effort.

He's unlikely to change, and all it's likely going to do is create bad feelings.

G. Moylan

The issue that I've had with some of his answers is they come off - at least to me - as condescending. "why would you ever think or do that, that's dumb" is the vibe I get from a lot of his stuff

Carcer

Yeah, choose your battles. I'm not inclined to get into a proper argument with him about it either.

Xirema

TBH it's kind of a bad answer. There's a lot of features in the game expressly designed around enforcing or otherwise piggybacking off the constraint that, until level 15, a Barbarian needs to continuously take or deal damage to maintain their rage, and removing that component drastically changes the balance of those features.

Saying "this mechanic is dumb, you should just ignore it" is a bad answer unless you're also prepared to explain how you plan to deal with the incidental consequences.

Someone_Evil

7:50 PM

As that comment thread is now longer than the answer (and so wordy it might be worth preserving), should it be moved to chat?

NautArch

Just frustrating. I mean, i can disagree fundamentally with how folks make rulings and we can still get along (amirite @MarkWells?)

Carcer

@G.Moylan I can reassure you that you're not the only person who gets that impression from him. As mods have said in this context before, you can flag comments/answers if you think their tone is overly aggressive/condescending etc, and there's no harm from a declined flag if the mods think you're being oversensitive.

Xirema

It's like the Holy Grail of trying to remove Bonus Actions from 5e: everyone thinks they've found the perfect solution, and then someone says "what about Bonus Action Spellcasting?" and only in that moment realizes what kind of a quagmire they've found themselves in.

Carcer

and that's probably where we should leave that

G. Moylan

@Someone_Evil I flagged it for that

NautArch

7:52 PM

@Xirema It's an unsupported answer, but while i'm fairly quick to flag those, this seems potentially problematic.

G. Moylan

@NautArch I'll take the hit, I did it

because I didn't see any sign of support other than "this is dumb you should do this instead"

NautArch

On to rosier discussions. I"m still narrowing down a feat for when I hit level 4 on my wizard. Debating between Lucky, Resilient (CON), and Fade Away. Leaning Fade Away, but Lucky seems appropriate for divination, too.

Carcer

Resilient (Con) is just very good, especially if the +1 con bump will put you up a modifier

maintaining concentration in the face of adversity is extremely valuable.

william porter

Spell Focus or Varisian Tattoo are always nice as well

Carcer

I think you're in the wrong edition, william

william porter

7:56 PM

I think I'm in the best edition :P

NautArch

@Carcer It'll bump it. And my super low AC of 10 could really use a bigger HP buffer.

Carcer

that's probably what I would go for myself then

NautArch

But I do have a good Con in general, just no proficiency. I don't currently have a lot of concentration spells, though.

But in the next 4 levels, I likely will.

Rubiksmoose

@williamporter lol

Xirema

Carcer

7:57 PM

you will want to pick some up for sure

NautArch

@Carcer Although again, with my low AC, my goal is not be hit as opposed to make the save.

william porter

@Xirema Reminds me of all the feat tax rulesets in PF.

Carcer

true. I'm not sure how you optimise that

NautArch

@Carcer Fade Away helps a bit. I'll get hit once and then can GTFO.

william porter

Only 23 days :hype:

NautArch

7:59 PM

@williamporter until...?

william porter

PF2E

NautArch

Lucky won't even necessarily stop the initial hit. But it couldh elp with forcing a failed save on something of mine.

ohwait, no it can't.

Carcer

that's what your portents are for

NautArch

My WIS is crazy low, so lucky could help with spell attacks against me.

@Carcer yeah, that's generally how i've used them. Make sure my allies save and my enemies don't.

Carcer

@NautArch generally the best use of them I feel, barring rare occasion when you can give your pally pal an autocrit and dump a big smite for massive damage

NautArch

8:02 PM

@Carcer Yeah, I had a crit saved last day but couldn't give it to the pally. I used it for a save against our fighter.

Had the fumble paired with it, but also couldn't give it to an enemy. Used it for a fail against levitate.

Carcer

being able to give someone an auto-20 on a death save could well be a clutch moment, too

NautArch

oh snap! THat's what I used it for! And it was the pally!

Someone_Evil

Forcing a fail against levitate seems like pretty good value

NautArch

Popped up and killed the guy in front of him.

@Someone_Evil Yeah, no more saves after the first fail.

Carcer

yeah, exactly, that's some pretty good bang for your portent right there

hey, that murderhobo answer has become my joint-highest-voted answer yet.

NautArch

8:10 PM

@Carcer nice!

I think my prone snake is still the highest. haven't checked in a bit.

ah ,nuts. DM faking dice rolls just beat it.

Carcer

(and yet, still shy of the dizzying heights of a "great" answer... I'll get you one day, gold badge)

NautArch

ha, that DM one got me Great Answer.

3 short for prone snake.

heh, thanks :P

it's definitely the far side cartoon that got me there.

Carcer

I didn't cast the first upvote

Someone_Evil

I did

NautArch

feeling the love

Carcer

8:15 PM

gentlefolk

the first rule about upvote club

G. Moylan

DING!

NautArch

@G.Moylan HUNDO!

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I've done what Dale_M recommends dozens of times, both as player and as DM, since I was weened on the "give 'em enough rope" school of DMing. Sometimes it worked, often we died a horrible death. I do not understand why you deleted that answer.

G. Moylan

@NautArch I was excited just to get a couple of gurus :P

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast see some of this discussion

G. Moylan

8:29 PM

one day I'll get a hundo of my very own! Hopefully not for that "religious player" answer but that's currently my closest

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I guess that fleshing the answer out with more text is our usual recommendation. Thanks. Just got back from RL and was puzzled at the quick slam on that. But maybe I should not be.

(I really like Chris' answer ...)

G. Moylan

what question is this?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I tried suggesting that... :(

@KorvinStarmast oh wait, it's either undeleted or were you talking about a different question?

Carcer

@NautArch rpg.stackexchange.com/a/151396/28402

it's a traditional Dale M one liner

NautArch

@Carcer ah, yeah. My hunch is that there's a point of frustration there about oneliners.

KorvinStarmast

8:35 PM

Brevity is the soul of wit

Carcer

we have agreed as a community we're looking for answers which explain themselves in a bit more depth than that

frustrating as it sometimes is when a full answer to a question is "Yes, you have literally quoted and correctly interpreted all the relevant rules"

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer the point is that Dale is right (albeit overly terse): failure is an option in a lot of different play styles. Anyhoo, my draft is on hold while I deal with RL a little bit. Check with you later.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Right, but unsupported. Talk about why failure is an option. When you've done that to a player, how did it work out? How did they feel? etc.

Just stating something is an idea, supporting it is an answer.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast right or wrong had nothing to do with it though. We don't delete answers for being wrong (except in very very exceptional cases) and that has nothing to do with why I deleted this one.

Like I said last night:

19 hours ago, by Rubiksmoose

An answer can very easily be factually correct and also a poor answer for this site (and/or bad in other ways).

Xirema

Who was it that said that one of the worst things you can do to a good idea is make a poor attempt to defend it?

G. Moylan

8:46 PM

@Xirema I dunno but that sounds like a good idea

GcL

@Rubiksmoose But that was past CubicAntelope! What about current AntleredBoxPuzzle? and it's nary sparing any consideration for the stance of future HornedSquarePrismEnigma!

Xirema

@G.Moylan You're right! I think anyone who disagrees is a $^% ^@%&&@#$% #$^%ing $^%&^ @#^ %^&@#$ who $#$&^&** in the @ $%$&#^& #$%$ $@ $% &%$ # with a %#&%^* pig!

GcL

@Xirema Your hands are like... two rows high. Bring it down a few keys

G. Moylan

@Xirema "My name is D-U-D-E-T-H-A-T-H-A-S-S-E....."

GcL

@Carcer Awww... I liked that answer

Carcer

8:51 PM

@KorvinStarmast ya, terseness is the problem. Dale is usually (but honestly not always) right, but he very rarely supports his answers with any substance

GcL

It is an approach some DMs take. Works well for canned stuff and one shots.

Carcer

I've made an edit to rpg.stackexchange.com/q/151357/28402 that might want sanity-checking from others

Xirema

> You're right! I think anyone who disagrees is a sad loathsome working sloth, the fellow who provided us him, I believe hurt us in our I [sic?] with a sloppy pig!

Rubiksmoose

@GcL those guys are jerks. I definitely wouldn't listen to them.

Xirema

I did what I could, but I don't have experience playing Mad Libs on Nightmare Mode. O_o

Carcer

8:58 PM

@Xirema just fill in the blanks by drawing random black cards from CaH

okay

using a CaH black deck as a deck of many things is my new favourite idea

Rubiksmoose

Sorry got pulled away. Tl;Dr the answer was deleted because it failed to adhere to the site requirement that answers be backed up. It doesn't matter how long or short, right or wrong your answer is - it must have some form of support.

Carcer

must

RFC standards here Rubiks

Rubiksmoose

Lol

G. Moylan

@Carcer oh jeez what would that even mean? Stuff on the card starts happening?

Carcer

the cards are often just a description of something physical so it makes the described thing appear

for the more conceptual ones I'm not sure

Rubiksmoose

9:03 PM

Anyways @KorvinStarmast I'm honestly happy to hear your concerns and thoughts at some point if you want. But that's why I deleted it.

(and I'm more than willing to reverse and own up to it if I made a mistake of course)

Of course if you think I made a mistake, Meta might be a better place so I can take my flogging publicly and someone can sell popcorn ;)

[end of whatever that random string of thoughts can be called]

V2Blast

9:28 PM

@Rubiksmoose Mmmm, popcorn.

Mark Wells

@Carcer You mean the white deck, right?

Carcer

@MarkWells whichever deck is the one with the things that go into the other things.

it's been a while since I played and I forget which way around they are.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Sorry, I just realized that this happened yesterday, I am late to the party. red face

Someone_Evil

@Carcer That would be the white then. But I'm now trying to imagine how to use the prompt cards in a game...

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose no flogging, I've got an idea to expand a bit on the premise, but as I re read the question I identify two problems: one between player and DM, and another between player and All Of The Other Players. I need to address both, and I think challenge the frame. With that in mind, yeah, the deleted answer was too terse on technical grounds as well.

(And it's gonna be a different flavor from Chris's wonderful answer. )

Mark Wells

9:42 PM

@Someone_Evil What you need is a sphinx.

"If you wish to cross the Forbidden Pass, you must answer my riddle! What always livens up a party?"

G. Moylan

@MarkWells "shooting guns into the air while b-"

Hot RPG Questions

10:12 PM

10

Q: Can the Mage Hand cantrip be used to trip an enemy who is running away?

Can the mage hand cantrip be used to trip an enemy who is running away? How should I rule if my player is attempting to grab hold of the ankle of a humanoid creature that is running away? Would it change anything if the hand was positioned in front of the creature, and as said creature runs past...

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Ben

10:27 PM

Morning all

Shalvenay

hey there @TannerSwett, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

Ben

@MarkWells "I can do this..." [Slides thumb off and on again] ”Magi-"

Carcer

@MarkWells a suspicious lack of dragons

(memorable white card from a dragon age themed custom deck I recall)

BESW

"We Forest Three," a solo TTRPG by Jamila R. Nedjadi. Create a Witch Seeker. Enter the Forest, a shadow of what once was, that threatens to kill your City. A story steeped in Filipino folklore and legends, see if you survive SISTERS THREE...or if the sisters decide your fate.

> WE FOREST THREE aims to provide a dark reflection, told thru the lens of magic and folklore. Your journey doesn't end when your character dies, but when their SOUL loses RESILIENCE. They emerge from the Forest as something that's not quite human anymore. A fate worse than death?

This Twitter thread follows Nedjadi's process creating the game and explaining its goals and design principles.

user15026

Just reading the thread gives me creepifying shivers so I don't think I could play it but I like that it exists.

trogdor

10:42 PM

just reading the description is a little like that

Tanner Swett

@Shalvenay Thanks :D Hey, where do I know you from?

Shalvenay

@TannerSwett xD The Hangar, mostly

Tanner Swett

That's the one :D

I'm glad that my first RPG answer was pretty well-received, even if it doesn't really fit the guidelines for answers here.

BESW

[wave] Hi!

Carcer

@BESW but am I filled with DETERMINATION?

BESW

10:48 PM

@Carcer No, but you have BRAVERY, INNOCENCE, and KINDNESS.

Carcer

well that's certainly one undertale path covered

BESW

I love the risk/countdown mechanic. Instead of health, you have a map, a light, and secrets. You assign each of them a die at the beginning: a d10, a d8, and a d6. When you fail a roll and the Forest threatens you, you can roll to use your light, map, or secrets against the Forest. If you get 4 or higher, you succeed.

V2Blast

@TannerSwett Welcome!

BESW

But if you roll 1-3, you succeed... and the die is reduced by one size. If you roll 1-3 on a d4, you lose that resource and succumb to its loss in ways which change you permanently. (Narratively your character changes, and mechanically you lose RESILIENCE. If your RESILIENCE hits 0, the Forest decides your fate.)

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Q: Are there any balance issues in allowing two half-feats to be taken without the Ability Score Increase instead of a feat?

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BESW

10:54 PM

Also: the Sisters Three are not enemies.They are your only hope. You journey into the Forest to supplicate them.

Someone_Evil

(On the back of Tanner's comment above) Should we maybe give more merit to stating "I have no specific experience with X" in an answer as part of 'back it up'?

It doesn't back up the answer per-say, but it does contextualize the answer with experience, making it easier for readers to judge its usefulness/applicability

Carcer

I've now given myself the mental image of a siren fast rapping into a bottle held like a microphone. It's time for bed

5

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