TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

11:05

@vicky_molokh The provided information should change the tags, because the provided information should go into the body, and the tags should reflect the body, and if the provided information is a system then that should go into the tags.

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener A question may include a system mentioned, yet not be specific to the system mentioned.

Carcer

I think part of this problem is that there is often disagreement on exactly how system-agnostic a question is

it is hardly uncommon that perhaps a querent has a question that they think is obviously not related to the specific game they're playing but in practice it's actually somewhat entangled

BESW

@Carcer Oh h*cking yes this.

Especially for people who think Pathfinder is an example of an RPG that's dramatically different from D&D.

kviiri

Yeah, true

trogdor

@BESW double agree with this

Carcer

11:13

and when the question is about solving an actual problem, keeping the system and the assumptions the system makes/behaviours the system encourages in mind can significantly inform a good answer, even if on the face of it the question is about something entirely non-mechanical like "the rogue keeps stealing my potions!"

trogdor

@Carcer also this

BESW

Yeah, my unexamined and off-the-cuff concept of a system-agnostic style tag is that it should be used not when the system doesn't matter (because let's face it that's describing answers not questions) but when an answer for just one system would not be answering the question.

vicky_molokh

@Carcer Part of the disagreement seems to be about how SA a question can be. People can be on all sorts of positions on the spectrum, such as 'the system is a mere tool of the GM' and 'the system defines roleplaying', and those probably aren't event the endpoints of the spectrum. A person's position on that spectrum is likely to lead to different treatment of SA questions and the tag.

Carcer

indeed

trogdor

@BESW I think I can agree with that

BESW

11:17

SA, as a tag, needs to describe the problem, not the expected solution.

vicky_molokh

System tags already describe solutions seeked, though. E.g. a D&D-tagged question about how to handle falling damage realistically doesn't expect me to give a GURPS answer to it.

Carcer

that's getting a bit pedantic

vicky_molokh

It points out how SA often gets 'denied' the usual protections that other system tags enjoy.

That it has to be done in such a roundabout way is unfortunate.

kviiri

I don't really think it has special protections

vicky_molokh

System tags dictate which answers are acceptable to a question, contrary to how tags are often said to be used on SE.

kviiri

11:21

We have had instances where a querent has tagged their question with several DnD tags, requesting a solution in a "yeah I'm playing 3.5e but if it works for other editions too it'd be fun"

BESW

@vicky_molokh That's.... no. A D&D tag says the problem is happening in a D&D context. The problem defines the scope of expected solutions.

kviiri

And those have been cut back too, because they don't describe the problem well either.

Carcer

system tags describe the domain and context of the problem, yeah

BESW

Tags are sorting categories for questions. Answers must meet the questions being asked. only in the case of system tags is it acceptable, on RPG.SE, for a tag to include information not also described in the question, because that was ruled too pedantic even for us. And it's still not tagging for answers.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh Tags don't describe answers, they describe the question. A question is about a problem in the scope of D&D gameplay. The presence of a D&D tag is indicative of that. Useful answers are relevant to D&D gameplay. On account of that, those same answers are usually not useful to GURPS, but might be.

Rubiksmoose

11:24

@vicky_molokh Correct me if I'm wrong here, by "protections" are you saying that perhaps SA questions come under more scrutiny in the comments then a question tagged with a system tag?

Because I do think that is true in a way, but I don't think that is a negative or wrong thing.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, because it's not a system tag. We have special rules for system tags after a rather brutal set of extremely pedantic meta discussions, and SA is not part of that ruling because "no single system" ain't no system.

Carcer

"I'm having a problem [in my D&D game but I think the solution shouldn't be based on D&D]" is bad use of SA, but "I'm having a problem [which I've observed in several different game systems]" is apt

BESW

If anybody wants to argue that "I have a problem which spans multiple systems" is a kind of system, I'd love to see that semantic ballet in a meta post.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose To paraphrase it in terms of problem scope, questions whose scope is system-specific are accepted for their scope, but questions whose scope is system-agnostic are constantly pestered with request to justify themselves, with many trigger-happy fingers either removing the scope-indicating tag or closing the question with the insistence that all scopes must be system-specific (as was the case with the intimidation question).

doppelgreener

Here's my current thoughts on System Agnostic in brief: it gets used for several distinct purposes (at least five iirc). Not everyone recognises all usages exist. Discussions about the role of System Agnostic get people tripping over each other when they are talking about different usages of the tag. Some usages are valid and useful tagging, some are not and are problematic tagging. Really, I think the tag needs to be divided up.

BESW

11:28

@vicky_molokh If you are actually trying to get a problem addressed, please stop using language like "trigger-happy" and assume good faith on the part of the users working to curate the site. If you are just venting frustration, please stop using language like "trigger-happy" and go be angry somewhere else if you can't.

doppelgreener

I am not sure how to approach that on meta yet. It could involve more than one question.

BESW

@doppelgreener This seems like a reasonable working theory but I can't figure out a methodology for it that won't collapse in practice.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Hmm. My computer is being very slow, but I think that the highest voted meta when I asked about SA did indeed take this position (from Mxy).

doppelgreener

See to talk about how we can divide it up, we first have to agree it even has distinct usages and what they are.

So I feel like I need to ask about that first to get some agreement???

BESW

I think one problem with sys-ag is simply that people type "system" into the tag line and it pops up. Same problem we've had with dungeons-and-dragons and problem-players.

Rubiksmoose

11:30

18

Q: How is the [system-agnostic] tag supposed to be used?

Coming off my discussion about this meta I have realized that I have no idea how the system-agnostic tag is supposed to be used correctly. Or, I thought I did but that not everyone agrees. Or maybe nobody ever agreed in the first place and I'm just catching on. This has been a hot meta topic bef...

@BESW I definitely think that is true. And likely a problem that was underlying the many problems of [rules-as-written] as well.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose iirc there's some usages that never got articulated there, so I'd be volunteering some more.

vicky_molokh

I would be open to / like to find a different term, but 'trigger happy' was the one I could find so far. I used it as a shorthand for 'prone to hastily doing stuff that may be detrimental to someone (in this case typically the asker)', metaphorically comparing it to pulling the trigger of a gun first and sorting things out later. Such as resulting in a closure of a question and leading to loss of momentum. If it made the wrong impression, I apologise.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose That argues it's a placeholder because the site expects a system tag, not that it's fulfilling the function of a system tag. Which isn't a distinction without a difference although you can squint and miss it.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Fair point! It's been a while since I read through it and I think that is a good read on it.

BESW

I feel like a LOT of problems with sys-ag would get resolved if we could use the same "ask for clarification" culture that would kick in if, say, somebody tagged a question wizard but didn't mention a wizard in the text.

Rubiksmoose

11:35

@BESW I wonder (and this is off-the-cuff, not something I've given a lot of thought to) but something like problem-in-multiple-systems (terrible name) might be one acceptable split off of it.

BESW

But because it looks like a system tag and it smells like a system tag, sys-ag gets a difficult comment culture because we privilege system tags in ways that sys-ag... doesn't work for... because a system tag implies some VERY SPECIFIC contexts which sys-ag is incapable of doing.

Rubiksmoose

^

BESW

Using it as a placeholder for system tags puts it in a limbo that we don't have a constructive community culture to deal with.

Like wizards or spells, we can't rely on system-agnostic alone to convey meaning; it needs to get clarified in the question text. We make an exception for system tags because we found that in practice it's silly and obstructive to require question text saying "I'm playing D&D 4e." dnd-4e suffices.

When we slap system-agnostic into the system tag slot as a placeholder... that doesn't change the need for the tag to be explained like any other non-system tag.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Can you give an example of what you'd like to see here as far as clarification culture? I ask because it almost seems like that is already happening (and may be one source of friction for some) and I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

@BESW I think you may have actually answered my question right there.

And I really like that thought process. It actually aligns with my head cannon for how to deal with the tag, though I would not have put it as neatly I think.

BESW

I'm still not sure we need a sys-ag tag at all. It's not a very useful thing to be able to search for, in my experience, and it's not exactly something one can be an expert in either. BUT experience has also shown that the user community expects it and will probably re-create it if we burn it.

Rubiksmoose

11:42

Whenever I see a question tagged SA without any mention of the system or overarching frame for the question I try to ask questions that might lead the OP to explain why they tagged it as such. Often that involves asking if they are playing in a certain system.

BESW

This tells me that either I'm wrong or the community is wrong and I'm gonna beat my ego back with a stick and assume I'm missing something.

@Rubiksmoose Right: this is a positive comment culture, probing and clarifying questions to get more detail about the situation.

A negative comment culture would be demanding that the user pick a system.

vicky_molokh

Also, I'm reminded that last time this topic came up, mxy pointed out that the chat is a very narrow self-selected group and not really representative of the community. And on one hand I want to offer moving it to meta, but on the other that feels like bringing up an issue again and again despite it having voted resolutions in the past, until an irreversible result wins.

BESW

It's a comment culture form of the XY problem, which derives from treating sys-ag as a system tag.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW (unless of course, the question obviously needs a system, in which case we'd close as unclear until that information is provided or clarification is given for why it is not needed)

vicky_molokh

(And then again, meta is a narrow self-selected group too, judging by the numbers of votes and views.)

BESW

11:45

@Rubiksmoose Right, but the same probing and leading questions can differentiate one from the other without confrontation.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW Ah I see the part you were stressing now. Yeah. We should really never be taking that tone for any comment. Agreed.

kviiri

Meta is far less narrow than the chat. The chat is about a dozen active people plus another dozen semi-active, meta posts regularly get votes well beyond chat attendance. (and hot meta posts are visible on the main site, unlike the chat which is so well hidden I'm pretty Voldemort should've stashed his horcruxes here instead of Gringotts)

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh With regards to chat, I think that is a very good thing to conisder in general when trying to extrapolate information gathered either here or in meta. Meta being the much broader sample.

Carcer

does renaming system-agnostic to "game-agnostic" mitigate some of the discussed issues

Rubiksmoose

@BESW perhaps it is unhelpful that Mxy's meta says in the title that SA is a system tag even though their answer doesn't strictly posit that. However I think that is almost certainly a result of the culture around the tag and hasn't had any appreciable influence on it.

vicky_molokh

11:50

@Rubiksmoose I think how much one will say the question obviously needs a system will depend on where one stands on the 'system-matterism scale'. Which means that people low on the scale asking SA questions will more often get questions closed by users who are higher on the scale. Essentially it'a gaming assumptions/culture clash, and of course that's a frictional thing to happen.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh As you say though, it is a scale. I don't think there is any generally correct and defensible position on the matter and therefore is best left up to voting to decide what is correct. That seems to be the system working as intended (even if it might be frustrating for one whose question is going through it).

BESW

Chat solves nothing, but it CAN be a decent place for brainstorming ideas that get put on meta--so long as they're explained fully on meta without needing readers to reference chat.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Mostly as intended, but like in all democracies, it sometimes produces situations when the majority decides to ban something the minority has a use for even though the majority isn't harmed by this thing.

Carcer

@BESW chat sometimes solves things, be fair

BESW

If needed, I can reinstate the old meta incentive.

Rubiksmoose

11:53

@BESW I feel like chat is a great place to raise the visibility and find problems, but is useless for solving them.

So basically, we are just a bunch of rabblerousers

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Possible cause of confusion about the is/isn't a system tag: imagine a questionnaire with a line that says 'religion'; do you find it acceptable to write 'atheist' or 'agnostic' into it? Some people will say yes, others will say no because atheism isn't a religion. A way to resolve the disagreement is to rephrase the line to ask for something like 'religious affiliation or lack thereof'.

Carcer

chat's not really the place to solve broad stack-wide problems, but it's often very good for solving specific problems with individual questions.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I'm really not sure I see anyone banning anything honestly here. What do you see that is being banned?

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Not meant to be taken that literally. More referring to de facto policies, such as closure of roleplaying-oriented questions because their scope isn't system-specific.

Rubiksmoose

Gotcha.

vicky_molokh

11:56

Voting-based effects are of course not guaranteed to pass.

They can vary depending on who's awake right now etc. etc.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I mean, I disagree that there is any such defacto policy or even that that happens systematically, but I understand what you are saying.

BESW

Let's not drag that old chestnut out again. The last time, it became clear that "system matters" was not being used in a Forgian way because those two words aren't always an archaic motto, people often use them without all that baggage, and most of the closures were because of actual lack of clarity and substance and not an imagined vendetta against roleplaying.

Rubiksmoose

Agreed. At the very least discussion on the matter has been hashed out many times in the past and always devolves into the formation of battle lines and no new information ever surfaces.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I'm bringing up the example that I am familiar with on my own skin because I think it's perfectly illustrative of how this process can go.

goodguy5

D:
They're about to cut off my power

Rubiksmoose

12:01

@vicky_molokh My intent was not to start an argument, just to clarify what I was saying.

Carcer

@goodguy5 did you go mad with it? Is it an intervention?

vicky_molokh

@BESW I'm open to an alternative term for the spectrum, but I think admitting that different people give different weight to the role of the system in RPGs is useful.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 oh no!

Carcer

@vicky_molokh Theoretical vs. Applied

BESW

@vicky_molokh Sure. That's a reasonable stance. It's not the one you took. Again, you're jumping straight into assuming bad faith and accusing people of deliberate machination.

goodguy5

12:03

ha They're cutting down some big trees on my block.

vicky_molokh

@BESW It's indeed not one I took back then, and I was wrong.

BESW

Then don't bring it up now as an example of "situations when the majority decides to ban something the minority has a use for."

vicky_molokh

@BESW Ah, that's a separate matter from the 'Foregite' angle.

BESW

I'm not going to re-litigate the last ten minutes of conversation. Just be careful, because you're associating "system mattersism" and "banning" and "closure of roleplaying-oriented questions because their scope isn't system-specific" more directly than perhaps you realize.

vicky_molokh

I'm not sure how else to describe a call to burnination, such as in the case of RAW: some people find a need for a tag, but more people decide that it should be burned. And given the way talks have gone in the past, I'm wary of SA getting the same treatment as RAW should a sufficient plurality assemble.

BESW

12:08

So it looks like you're referencing that old conspiracy theory, and people remember it and it's not casting a good light on your actual solid points here.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh It is good to remember that there is a difference between eliminating a tag and banning the content that had previously fallen under that tag. The latter has happened of course (sys-rec eg), but not with RAW and I have not seen it proposed by anyone for SA.

BESW

Yeeeeah, burning a tag isn't the same as banning the content.

And yeah, RAW was ugly and regrettable and I wish it had fallen out differently. I think it might've been salvageable if it hadn't gotten so personal.

But at the end of the day the Stack Exchange can't handle everything. We DID ban (not just burn tags for) setting research questions for non-RPG-specific settings, for example.

(We were getting questions about historical telephones.)

Rubiksmoose

@BESW oh dear...

vicky_molokh

With RAW, I don't worry about the question types getting closed because obviously lots of people still support the existence of such questions. But with SA, I worry that not only may the content be detagged, but also that there's a real possibility of questions with system-agnostic questions getting closed for their agnosticism.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh It is definitely valuable to consider how the content will be affected when a tag is removed. I think it is important to remember however, that nobody has actionably actually proposed the elimination of the tag in recent memory (that I am aware of).

RAW might actually be a good counter example to what you fear.

vicky_molokh

12:13

Question closures are plurality-based, after all: it only takes 5 closers and 4 openers for a question to stay closed. This of course interacts in interesting ways with the distinction between 'I find that I cannot answer the question' vs 'I think nobody can answer this question and it is unanswerable'.

Rubiksmoose

Because there have been no reduction as far as I can tell in questions that previously would have been tagged RAW, and certainly no increase in the closure of such questions.

BESW

@vicky_molokh I have never seen any lack of support for SA content. But... I don't think support is even the issue. What you see as a populist run against content, I see as a reluctant (FIVE YEARS we tried everything we could think of to keep system recommendations) admission that some topics are just impossible for the community to ask/answer within the scope of the Stack's requirements.

@vicky_molokh Unanswerability is an unacceptable close reason. That is absolutely clear.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW ^ and also seems to be a completely different topic to me.

BESW

Yeah, I don't think you intend it but this is starting to feel like goalpost-moving rather than a wide-ranging discussion about a nuanced topic.

You bring up a problem, we start talking about it, and you bring up another tangential problem instead.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose It's a reference to 'roleplaying advice [for solving this problem] cannot be given without a system', so I think in practice it's very relevant to the topic, but perhaps I really should take steps back.

BESW

12:17

@vicky_molokh Where is that said?

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh but that is different than what you said. In that case, the question is missing information needed to answer the question up to stack standards. The lack of possible answers available to give has nothing to do with it.

BESW

Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. If the user is using a particular system, is there a good reason to NOT provide that information in case it's useful? The more detailed a question is the better answers we get. And if the user is using multiple systems, then it's probably sys-ag though mentioning the systems in the question is still gonna be super useful.

But for myself, I will absolutely need to know something about the game being played before I give RP advice. The choice of game is part of the social contract which sets RP expectations.

But now we're back to sys-as as a system tag. Hello, ouroboros.

Rubiksmoose

hah! when you said that I looked to find a user called ouroboros briefly.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Short version of this (and IIRC some comments now deleted). Single-handedly closed essentially for the agnostic scope, reopened, closed again, reopened again. The system info was clarified in the very first iteration.

Rubiksmoose

We can point to many questions of many types that have been (possibly errantly) closed (not even getting into whether that was the case here) and reopened in many tags. We've talked about this example before, but one example does not a trend make.

You do have to remember that people are human and do make mistakes. They can also disagree.

The question is open now, the system from your point of view came to the correct conclusion. I see no issue.

vicky_molokh

12:26

Oh, most definitely. I just think it's useful to have failsafes against that.

Rubiksmoose

Voting is our failsafe and, failing that, (diamond) moderation.

SE believes, correctly or not, in the wisdom of crowds. If this was a case where you could show us that the majority was tampling and stifling these questions systematically, I would move to pursue corrective action as soon as possible to make sure that we address it.

And I know our diamond mods and community would as well.

BESW

Yeah, I don't see how this is related to handling the system-agnostic. This tangent seems to be based on concerns that if people don't like a subject they'll push it out of the Stack. The example is... a question that had confusion and then stabilized as open in less than 24 hours and hasn't been successfully challenged since.

Topics like RAW are red herrings here, we spent YEARS trying to make them work despite the struggle creating obvious and lasting rifts in the community.

Ben

@Whambulance yeah not too bad. Been a hectic week... More to look forward to next week, but it's the weekend now. So, some respite for the time being

Evening everybody

BESW

The only time I can think that we've ever sincerely tried to kick out a subject because it was considered objectionable by users, we burned a tag for an RPG that was explicitly a fascist recruitment tool which encouraged physical violence against real people, and pre-emptively agreed it would never be an acceptable topic for questions. And we still left a question open that only referenced the system tangentially to the problem being asked about.

vicky_molokh

@BESW The way I see it, it wouldn't've had to deal with such a cycle of being temp-closed at all if it were a question with a system-specific scope.

(Not sure if I used the tense right.)

(Would/were/had/etc.)

BESW

12:40

@vicky_molokh Right. Because system agnostic questions are difficult to scope, and the confusion about the tag makes it artificially harder. That doesn't mean there's a vendetta against them.

It's just the nature of the beast. We like roleplaying questions, but the Stack Exchange format requires that ALL subjective questions jump through some extra hoops that rules-focused questions don't.

Rubiksmoose

Think of it this way: system (and the tags themselves to a certain point) provide a ton of information that helps to frame the question. Questions claiming to be SA lack this information most of the time and thus the community has to work a bit harder to make sure they are scoped right. And with that ambiguity comes even more room for disagreement.

BESW

It's a problem with the Stack Exchange's ability to handle subjective questions, which is "fixed" with a set of poorly documented policies rather than structural reform.

(And yes, you got the tense right. Brava!)

Put it this way: a lot of Stack sites would've just closed all roleplaying questions as off-topic long ago, regardless of system tags, on the justification that answers can't be easily voted on as right or wrong, just popular.

RPG.SE has spent many years learning how to bypass the Stack's objectivity fetish in specific ways to enable RP questions to survive and even sometimes flourish, by insisting that answerers provide experience-based support for their solutions and show how that experience makes their solutions rel🐘 to the asker's situation.

...but this also means casting a much more critical eye on RP questions to be sure they provide enough context for that kind of support to be possible.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW complete tangent that I could probably Google: "brava" is gender neutral form of "bravo"?

vicky_molokh

This looks like a reference to Good Subjective. Is it still considered an obscure and incoherent principle?

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Feminine, but yes.

Rubiksmoose

12:51

@BESW gotcha! thanks.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Does the documentation still link to a dead third-party parenting website to explain it?

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I parsed "dead parenting website" in a very strange way. Time for some tea I think.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose I think I've seen that movie.

Carcer

@Rubiksmoose it's batman's blog

Rubiksmoose

@Carcer hahahaha

vicky_molokh

12:53

Hmm. So it does.

BESW

vicky_molokh

Though the idea seemed to be good enough to stand without going through the links.

BESW

@vicky_molokh Until the Stack cares enough about their principle that is the only thing holding together massive amounts of their content, to update the dead links in their documentation, I'll maintain that it's obscure. And RPG.SE has spent a long time learning specific forms of Good Subjective which let us retain otherwise unsustainable content in the Stack Exchange format.

vicky_molokh

I'm not sure subjectivity is on its own a key or even a significant point in the issues SA questions have to overcome. Maybe I'm wrong, but in a way they seem to be on a similar level to, say, design patterns, heuristics and code smells in terms of objectivity/subjectivity.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh Note that BESW was talking about RP questions not necessarily all SA ones.

vicky_molokh

12:56

But then again of all the stacks, I only interact with RPGSE to a significant degree, while on others I just read some main questions.

BESW

I'm trying to addressing your concerns that SA roleplaying might become an endangered subject if the SA tag is challenged.

We've got practices in place specifically to protect that kind of content, and you ran afoul not of an attempt to eradicate the content, but an overzealous attempt to protect it.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Maybe I'm extrapolating my personal experience about endangerment, multiplied by some statements on metas, into a bigger threat than it is.

BESW

An overzealous attempt, please note, which was course-corrected in under 24 hours and hasn't been challenged since.

vicky_molokh

Also in a way I'm trying to do something to ensure such an overzealous case doesn't happen again (which is of course impossible to do with a 100% guarantee).

Rubiksmoose

Honestly before I even started considering my thoughts about removing the tag, I'd like to look at some data and/or hear from people about actual concrete issues with the tag. There certainly seems to be some potential indications, but I'm not entirely convinced that there is anything that needs fixing there yet.

Just my personal view on the matter.

vicky_molokh

13:00

For all of the discussion we had, I wonder how much of anything anyone said is 'metaable'? (And I expect that my statements so far mostly or completely aren't.)

BESW

@vicky_molokh The system is working pretty well. We labour under arbitrary and quantitative-obsessed Overlords, but I don't see any evidence that anybody wants to remove subjective or system-agnostic or roleplaying content. We have disagreements about how to protect it from the Stack system's overemphasis on quantitative answers, but everybody wants to protect it.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh And I do think that is a valuable concept. I do think there are perhaps more valuable and productive ways to do so.

@vicky_molokh It's hard to say since we've covered quite a wide range of topics.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Well, ones that seem to be causing some friction: seeing SA as a system/scope tag vs. seeing it as not; whether multi-system is a subset of SA . . .

BESW

@vicky_molokh We were working toward an understanding of the system-agnostic tag and how its role on the site as a placeholder for system tags has clouded its other uses and created bad comment culture around it, but then you wanted to talk about... whatever this has been...

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I think if this issue means a lot to you (which it clearly does) and you see issues with it (which you also seem to) my recommendation would be to start accumulating some evidence to help people see that problems you are and to help us determine the magnitude of any of those issues. And then bring it to meta.

We always work best when working from concrete, demonstrable issues.

vicky_molokh

13:03

@Rubiksmoose Or prove to myself that my concerns are unfounded.

Carcer

@vicky_molokh it's probably easier for everyone else if you just do that one

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh that would be another potential (and valuable!) outcome I think. Peace of mind is certainly a good thing to have over an issue that is weighing on you.

Carcer

[SARCASM ALERT]

Rubiksmoose

@Carcer thank goodness you said that. I was a bit taken aback.

Carcer

@Rubiksmoose yeah, I realised belatedly that that might not have gone down the way I meant it to.

kviiri

13:07

0

Q: Counting fails and successes in dice pools in Anydice

I'm trying to figure out probabilities for a d6 dice pool mechanic where [5,6] are successes, and [1.2] are fails causing the player to lose that dice from the pool. I've been using "output [count {1,2} in Nd6]" to get the probability of either result happening in N sized pool. But these are ind...

anydice

^rats, looks like a fun question but just as I'm about to leave work :(

Carcer

paging Ilmari Karonen

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh It's worth noting that I'm not sure that SEDE data is going to prove anything concretely by itself since most of the issues seem to come at the level of what is or is not an issue. For example if 20% of SA questions get and remain closed as "Unclear" we'd have to determine if those question were actually unclear or if there was some issue that led to an unjust closure. So data should come with a hefty helping of analysis of particular cases I think.

nitsua60

@vicky_molokh [blushes, raises hand] I've done that. Read a question, terminology's so similar, the situation presented wasn't obviously PbtA, written up an answer, posted, then noticed the system tag and deleted the answer.

vicky_molokh

Yeah, that's the hard part. Then we go down the rabbit hole of agreeing or disagreeing with whether the closure was fair.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh But at least we'd be looking at and talking about the same concrete examples which very much helps even if the judgements made are subjective. It would be a big step forward in this discussion. And, with a preponderance of examples, when we agree it can't just be dismissed as a one-off case.

BESW

13:10

Here's a great example:

nitsua60

@kviiri That strikes me as a bad tag wiki, inasmuch as it's trying to dictate the form of answers. But I'm cognizant that I'm an outlier (I think) on the site in this regard: I can't remember ever seeing a sys-ag question that made me think "that's about system-agnosticism," rather than "that's an instruction to answerers."

BESW

Should there be in-game consequences for taking too long to plan? is closed as too opinion-based because... it is. It's totally subjective and while you could give some solid experience-based answers there's not really enough information to tell which experiences will be useful...

BUT ALSO it's an XY problem because the problem is How can I avoid players spending too much time planning? which is almost exactly the same scenario but describes the problem rather than asking us to approve or disapprove a specific solution the asker came up with. And it's open.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh My advice: when you see an issue, note it in some sort of running document along with screenshots and contextual information. Be sure also to note cases where there also aren't issues.

BESW

I see this a lot with subjective questions.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW same

nitsua60

13:18

@vicky_molokh Sure, a GURPS answer isn't expected, but that's not to say it can't be a good one. "you want to deal with falling damage more realistically in D&D? I've been down this hole before, and I can lead you out. Let me tell you about a little something we in the 80s called 'GURPS.'" If that answer leverages expertise with GURPS and how that applies (informed by expertise) to OP's D&D game, nothing wrong with it.

2

BESW

Here's one that I'd be tempted to tag freeform and online-roleplaying, untag as sys-ag, and vote to re-open. But I'm tired and braindead so I won't right now.

nitsua60

System tags don't force answers to be in any form: they provide a lot of information in a compact way, and are very helpful to site users both in evaluating answers and in finding Q/A they're interested in.

BESW

A lot of closed sys-ag questions are actually requests for recommendations or brainstorming.

kviiri

@nitsua60 Good

nitsua60

(Okay, I'm catching up and seeing that many others are making the same points; sorry for the repeat.)

Carcer

13:26

the politics are being exciting today

Rubiksmoose

@Carcer ...in a good way or a terrifying way?

Carcer

well, Theresa May has announced she's going to resign in a fortnight

it's kind of a mixed bag

Ben

We just had a round of voting. One guy has been trying to get into parliament for years, and even now he still can't get in.

Rubiksmoose

oh man, that is big.

Carcer

it was entirely expected at this point

if she didn't resign herself, the tory backbench was going to change the party rules so they could immediately have another go at forcing her out

but it's a mixed bag

Rubiksmoose

13:29

(I'll admit that I don't follow politics across the pond nearly at all)

Ben

vicky_molokh

/me checks the news. Oh good, today politics aren't as 'interesting' as the last few days.

Carcer

on the one hand, Theresa May is an awful person and an even worse prime minister who's been doing sterling work ruining the country and making a hash of the entire brexit situation

on the other hand, none of the people who could possibly replace her as tory party leaders are better, and some of them are the dangerous combination of being more malicious and more competent

vicky_molokh

(Short version of the last few days: a comedian won both rounds, was inaugurated the president, and dissolved the high council as promised, leading to two months of not sure what yet, but those dissolved now care more about reelection than about doing their jobs for these two months.)

Carcer

yeah, Ukraine is having an exciting time too huh

vicky_molokh

13:32

Extremely.

BESW

Oookay let's take a moment to remember that Be Nice includes being nice to people who aren't using the Stack Exchange and that this set of rooms in particular tries to hold to a standard of kindness and respect and dignity above and beyond the superficial civility of the Be Nice policy.

Carcer

But your comedian at least has the important job experience of having played a president on TV, so it could be worse

vicky_molokh

Oh, it could be worse. It also could be better. But most of all, either of those two options could've been clearer. Right now I don't know what to expect, things are so unpredictable.

Carcer

@BESW I believe I'm showing her exactly as much respect as she deserves, keeping in mind the active role her policies and her party have played in the unnecessary suffering of the most vulnerable parts of British society.

but I will concur this is probably not the appropriate place to have that conversation

nitsua60

@BESW An impressive bit of throwing out the bathwater but saving the baby, that was. (In my opinion.) It helped that OP was very cooperative and engaged in the meta about it, I think.

BESW

13:38

@nitsua60 yeah, they were like "OMG our game system is WHAT!?"

nitsua60

@Carcer Anyone know Julia Louis-Dreyfus' plans for 2020?

Ben

13:56

"If you are reading this, stage 3 of my evil plan is complete"

user15026

14:15

@Ben saw your message about asking me about something related to LGBTQ stuff but I fell asleep, was it still something you wanted to poke at?

user15026

(if so, NAB might be best, poke me there)

BESW

@Ash Conversation starts here

user15026

(never mind, found it, catching up, will post thoughts)

David Coffron

I did this analysis a while back regarding custom weapons and the balance apparent in the DMG. Is there a stackable way to present this info as related on balance implications for questions like this

Ben

14:35

@Ash it's all good :)

Hot RPG Questions

14:54

1

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One of my players suggested using the levitate spell as a weapon in our last session. Following his logic, he’ll levitate an enemy 20 feet up and then slam it into a wall or the ground or keep pushing him up and then slam it for a “falling” damage of X feet. I’m uncertain whether the spell can ...

dnd-5e spells damage

doppelgreener

15:06

@BESW blows my mind such a fundamental thing isn't actually described decently anywhere

22

Q: Add guidance on Good Subjective answer citation to the help center

Good Subjective, Bad Subjective underpins the current network approach to subjective questions. It lays down the principles found at the bottom of What types of questions should I avoid asking? which help us distinguish what kinds of subjective questions we do and don't accept. Something it also...

feature-request help-center citation subjective-answers

I've requested it, and it also blows my mind I'm apparently the first to do so

@Ben I'll also put up my hand that I am also trans and open to discussing the topic. @Ash I'm interested to see what you have to say.

(not the same kind of trans as your friend though, here I mean just as in being in the transgender umbrella)

Carcer

what flavour?

doppelgreener

@Carcer genderfluid

Was a wild ride getting there

Also, strawberry

Carcer

mm, yeah

Derpy

user15026

@doppelgreener I made a pile of words in NAB

Carcer

15:16

I think I only have one friend who's expressly genderfluid

I know several who are in generic defiance of the fundamentals of modern computing though

goodguy5

@Derpy amazing

Derpy

for a second I feared Firefox started to auto-convert strings to emojis like Skype does. Luckily enough, that seems to be just @BESW wanting to scare us. "rel🐘"...

Carcer

BESW always does that

doppelgreener

@Ash whee! Reading time

Derpy

@Carcer yep, I kinda guessed so, but you know.. it is Friday, my brain didn't put the two things together and went instead for the worst possible scenario.

goodguy5

15:19

🔨 nailed it

Derpy

@HotRPGQuestions that summoned back some old memories about Morrowind and that mage that apparently was testing the "Scroll of Icarian Flight"

Clue: the scroll actually worked as a really high jump.

like... Hulk level of jumping.

... without the required side-powers.

(like surviving the fall)

Ben

@Derpy relelephant? :P

goodguy5

15:36

👂🐘

Ben

@Carcer Actually I believe it was @Miniman that started the "r🐘🐘" thing haha

@goodguy5 yeeeeaaasss

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 did you get your power back?

goodguy5

surprisingly never went out? I guess I'm on a different line than the house diagonally from me.

Rubiksmoose

Oh well that's a nice surprise eh?

goodguy5

yea!

Ben

15:41

Noice

My power went out. But that was just after I hit the switch and climbed into bed.

goodguy5

:-\

Ben

Oh, also: good morning!

I should not be awake right now. I can say that much. Lol

goodguy5

Good Australian morning!

*NZ

Ben

It is currently 1.45 in the am.

goodguy5

oof

Ben

15:43

Tomorrow... Well... today is Saturday, so not a major problem

goodguy5

It's technically still morning here, as well (11:44AM)

Ben

@Rubiksmoose for some reason I read that in an incredibly Canadian accent haha

goodguy5

Well, he's an incredible Canadian

Ben

Actually that's a question... if Australia doesn't exist, does that cover NZ as well?

@goodguy5 True that

Carcer

@Ben Don't be silly, Australia exists. Finland is probably just a statistical error though

Ben

15:53

I think I am too tired to respond with anything sufficiently witty at this point haha

Miniman

@Ben Nah, not even close.

goodguy5

@Ben I can't decide which set of conspiracy theorists is worse, but those anti-aussers are up there

Ben

@Miniman Hold the phone... If I'm awake... And you're awake... Did I miss an evacuation drill or something?

Miniman

@Ben It's Friday night :P

(Well, technically it's Saturday morning, but you know what I mean. )

Ben

Haha

I think I need to turn in. Night all!

Miniman

15:59

Although I do try to keep 2am as a hard limit - I was just doing my final checks before sleep.

@Ben Yeah, exactly.

Glazius

16:26

@Derpy Oh, it gave you the required side-powers too! They just didn't last long enough for you to land if you went for maximum boing.

Carcer

16:36

Maximum Boing: A Jumplomancer's Memoir

Xirema

16:48

So I don't know if you guys caught this: a week ago, one of the Mods on Stack Overflow decided that one of the help pages should be renamed: the [mcve] pages, or "Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable Example" page, which describes best practices for submitting questions about buggy code, incorrect logic, etc., and how to make sure you will get the help you want. It's a very common help page to link for new users, so much that they created a comment macro that will automagically link that page.

Their proposal for how to rename the page went over..........

Poorly.

-305

Q: Min-Reprex: a less awkward name for MCVE

Five years ago, we set out to write up some guidelines for folks asking debugging questions on Stack Overflow. Andrew Thompson, author of the much-loved guide to writing a Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example, gave us a solid start; with a few tweaks and updates over the years thi...

discussion help-center mcve terminology

The story mostly has a happy ending though: the mod was willing to acknowledge that they didn't think their proposal through as much as they should have.

214

Q: MCVExit redux: I don't need a milkshake to know when I've missed the mark

A week ago, I had an idea: change a URL with thousands of outstanding uses and try to replace an awkward initialism with... Another awkward made-up word. ...Ok, that was... not a great idea. Fortunately, many of you generously donated your time to point out just how not-great that idea was, and ...

discussion featured help-center mcve terminology

Still, I am endlessly entertained by the whole spectacle.

Kevin

Programmers are not fond of backwards-incompatible changes to public interfaces

2

Xirema

"Min-Reprex: a less awkward name for MCVE"←That, my friends, is what a Level 20 "IT Middle Manager who failed upwards into a position of authority" looks like.

(Not intending to dunk on this one mod: I GUARANTEE they ran this proposal by a few others first who more-or-less shrugged noncommittally in response)

@Kevin I mean, it's not even that: they were going to keep the old macros, just linking them to the newly renamed page.

From a usability perspective, pretty much nothing was going to change.

But imagine hearing the phrase "Min-Reprex" and thinking "yeah, that's less awkward than literally any other phrase".

It sounds like the phonetic pronunciation of some new Acid-Reflux medication.

Kevin

Many other people made that association, yes

in Python on Stack Overflow Chat, May 15 at 16:49, by Kevin

I can picture a commercial in my mind's eye. "ask your doctor if minreprex is right for you". A happy family is playing frisbee in a field of flowers.

Xirema

> Suffering from heartburn and other Acid-Reflux related diseases? Get instant relief with Min-Reprex, the only non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug that also relieves the symptoms of Acid-Reflux and other related ailments!

@Kevin Yup.

Kevin

17:03

Fantasy worldbuilding question. My character belongs to a genderless species, and I want terms that refer to their parents individually, but "father" and "mother" do not map to their biology in any sensible way. Are there any good alternatives that already exist in English, or shall I just make up something in fantasy-ese?

vicky_molokh

@Kevin Parthenogenetic or more like worm-style hermaphrodites? Assuming you mean 'sexless species', that is.

ACuriousMind

@Kevin What's wrong with the singular "parent"?

Kevin

@vicky_molokh More like hermaphroditic. One parent supplies the egg, and one fertilizes it.

vicky_molokh

Hmmm. Gestator and . . . well, 'fetrilizator' has the wrong connotations!

Kevin

@ACuriousMind I thought about it, but then it's tricky to word a sentence like "my parent forbade me from becoming an adventurer; on the other hand, my other parent secretly gave me the ancestral family sword" while making it clear which parent was which

vicky_molokh

17:10

But there's no reason why biological motherhood and fatherhood need to map 1:1 to social fatherhood and motherhood in an alien species.

ACuriousMind

@Kevin I think the question is whether or not their culture views the parents roles as different or not. If the parents do not have distinct roles, it makes sense that they wouldn't have a specific term for one but not the other, and would just call them by their names

Kevin

@vicky_molokh Yeah. I'm imagining that child-raising duties are divided asymmetrically, but according to personality rather than who supplied what material.

vicky_molokh

In fact, having 'father' and 'mother' as things that are not absolute, but relative terms dependent on the child under discussion, in a way makes sense.

So e.g. A and B are the kids, X and Y are parents; X is A's father and B's mother, while Y is A's mother and B's father.

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dnd-5e weapons monk

vicky_molokh

. . . with [primary] 'caretaker' or 'upbringer' being a term that does not depend on who's who, and is more personality-dependent.

Kevin

17:13

e.g. There may be a "nurturer/provider" dichotomy much like the stereotypical human nuclear family , but this doesn't map to any biological fact other than "who is more nurturing between the two of them"

ACuriousMind

I'm not convinced that such a species would create specific words to refer to one parent but not the other. Consider that we don't have specific words to tell apart more than one sister or brother, either (at least I don't know of any language that does).

Carcer

so there's a cultural distinction?

vicky_molokh

@ACuriousMind Err, I don't think that's the case. Humans absolutely have such words. In some languages there is no word for 'sister', only 'senior sister' and 'junior sister'.

Carcer

I don't think there are good single words in English you could use to differentiate parents that don't depend on gender but still retain the implication that they are biological parents

ACuriousMind

@vicky_molokh Fair enough. How about two older sisters?

Carcer

17:17

but you can maybe just add qualifiers. Maybe older parent and younger parent?

Kevin

It occurs to me that I could research what terminology is used by children of same-sex couples in the real world.

vicky_molokh

@ACuriousMind I'm not that knowledgeable, but I bet that there's a language which does that too.

Carcer

Kevin: the thing there is that we've got multiple words that mean father

"father", "papa", "dad", "daddy"

normally that gets used to distinguish

but they're still gendered words

Kevin

I'm looking at a Quora post that basically boils down to "one parent exclusively gets called 'dad', the other exclusively gets called 'pop'"

Carcer

I was assuming you wanted words that were gender neutral

and you get mum/mom/mother/mama etc.

ACuriousMind

17:19

I'd wager that these languages (with distinct older/younger words) stem from cultures where the distinction is considered relevant (e.g. with respect to the necessary register of politeness). So the question is whether or not this culture has strong opinions on some dichotomy between the parents or not

Kevin

I could give a justification like "in their native language this species uses gender-neutral terms, but for the sake of convenience when interacting with humans they all identify as de-facto males and accept masculine pronouns/specifiers"

Carcer

you could indeed do that

Kevin

I've already gone three sessions where I haven't bothered to correct anybody when they refer to my character with "he" so that saves me a retcon :-P

vicky_molokh

@Kevin Keep in mind that (a) a species is likely to have many languages and (b) genders are likely to vary in all of those languages and (c) grammatical genders don't usually line up that nicely with social genders outside of English.

Carcer

so the language does have multiple words that mean parent without other connotations, perhaps purely because it's necessary

vicky_molokh

17:22

So on (c) e.g. it's plausible that in the species' language A, all parent-words are common-gender and all child-words are neuter-gender. And in Language B, both bio-parent words are neuter but both socio-parent words are feminine. Or whatever other combination.

Carcer

@vicky_molokh for a species in a fantasy setting sharing worldspace with the rest of the traditional kitchen sink it's usual for them to have one racial language, so I don't think it's necessary to worry too much

vicky_molokh

@Carcer Even so, the other observations may as well apply to that single language.

Carcer

sure

vicky_molokh

It could be even that words change gender depending on circumstances, such as when swapped between singular and plural, like in Hebrew.

(Or at least IIRC it was Hebrew.)

Carcer

that sounds excessive. Why can't all these foreigners just have a simple language like English.

/me runs away

vicky_molokh

17:27

@Carcer Sure, but only after English fixes its pronunciation to make words actually sound like they look. ^_^

Kevin

I'm tempted to give these guys a pointlessly complicated language just so I can capture the authentic frustration that I last experienced trying to memorize verb conjugation tables in high school French

vicky_molokh

@Kevin I approve!

Xirema

The English language is such a garbage fire. Get your stuff† together, English Language!

Xirema

17:59

First pass at a "What is the CR of my Boss Monster?" template proposal: homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/SJ2m9YH6E

They're basically a level 20 Shadow Sorcerer, but with a few extra features that PCs don't normally get.

Xirema

18:13

There's a couple different CR values you can calculate depending on the kinds of assumptions you make about how combat would progress, but given that, under /normal/ conditions, the assassin deals between 50-100DPR, has long-lasting resistance to most damage, and can teleport at-will, you'd calculate a nominal CR around 15-17. Then, including their spellcasting, that puts them around a solid 20.

goodguy5

18:56

I hate when you're working from home and the cats come over and start putting out nap-radiation.

Carcer

my cat prefers to keep me on my toes by knocking stuff off the desk constantly.

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19:32

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BESW

20:54

Does Twitter One-Box Yet? We now return to the story already in progress.

twitter.com/Art_the_DM/status/1131543608329363456

No.

Tune in next time for the exciting continuation!

trogdor

lol

user15026

21:21

@BESW I await the next installment with bated breath.

trogdor

what exactly happened?

it just stopped one-boxing at some point?

Xirema

@trogdor Just for Twitter, apparently.

Or maybe for all non-stack sites?

Is there public documentation on how the one-boxing is supposed to work?

BESW

31

Q: Twitter Oneboxing in chat appears broken

Twitter Oneboxing in chatrooms appears to be broken at the time of posting. Pasting a Twitter link in chat does not change the chat message to a onebox of the tweet in question.

bug chat onebox twitter

47

A: Which links and sites are handled specially in chat?

The current list of integrated (we call this onebox, or oneboxing, ala search engines) sites is: Stack Exchange sites: Questions / Answers / Users / Comments (except for deleted posts) Stack Exchange Chat: Messages / Rooms / Bookmarked conversations Area 51 proposals Posts from the Stack Overfl...

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