TRPG General Chat

Yuuki

18:04

@doppelgreener So how was Captain Marvel?

V2Blast

Artificer is live on D&D Beyond! dndbeyond.com/classes/artificer

GreySage

@V2Blast Still UA though, right?

goodguy5

O.O

doppelgreener

18:22

@Yuuki Absolutely fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyable. It's a bit like the good parts of Iron Man + Thor, mixed with a helping of Guardians of the Galaxy. Out of all the Marvel movies I'd probably put it in my top five.

Where Thor Ragnarok and Black Panther are solidly occupying first and second place.

MikeQ

@doppelgreener Did you stick around for both end-credits scenes?

doppelgreener

@MikeQ Yes.

From what I understand Carol Danvers as a character has been the target of a several-year-long misogynistic internet hate campaign mainly largely out of 4chan, and that hate campaign review-bombed the movie as much as it could with bad reviews. Which explains some of the rating issues.

Also, a woman I know has been struggling with some bad issues at work recently and the movie gave her life and she said that in several scenes through it she felt like she wanted to punch someone's heart out but in, like, a feminist way. Which is great.

It's got similar vibes to Wonder Woman on that front.

Yuuki

@doppelgreener As far as comparisons go, I think Captain Marvel stays on-message much better than Wonder Woman.

I feel like Wonder Woman kinda collapsed at the finishing line whereas Captain Marvel stayed on-point.

doppelgreener

@Yuuki Absolutely

@Yuuki Also had that super-on-the-nose christ imagery

Which was ... weird ...

user15026

@doppelgreener Okay, that makes me want to watch it more now

Yuuki

18:28

Where's that spoilers room? Because while I don't think I'll be giving out any spoilers, I don't want to risk it.

user15026

(I mean I still will likely forget to do it, but I have more of an interest in it now)

Yuuki

There's a number of scenes in Captain Marvel where they could've gone with a trite action movie moment but that would've subverted the theme of the movie and I'm really impressed how neatly they avoided every single of those moments.

Sir Cinnamon

@doppelgreener I've seen so much of this. In a discord server I'm in a user will literally find any mention of the movie and advise not seeing it solely because of a vendetta against a fictional characters fictional actions in a different storyline

it's downright bizarre

Colin Gross

@SirCinnamon Did the fictional character fictionally kick them in their imaginary shin or something?

V2Blast

@GreySage Yes

doppelgreener

18:39

@Ash Please do!

GreySage

@SirCinnamon That is just weird.

doppelgreener

Once you do feel free to DM me with geeking out about it if it strikes your fancy.

@Yuuki I agree!!!

MikeQ

@ColinGross Unfortunately nerd culture has historically attracted a loud minority of angry and socially maladjusted guys, so the misogyny can manifest in odd ways

user15026

@doppelgreener grins I shall keep that in mind :) I am terrible at seeing movies so it might be after it hits Netflix or the like, but hey.

doppelgreener

@SirCinnamon It's flat-out misogynistic hate of an empowered female character in a sensible outfit and so on.

user15026

18:40

(I like movies best when I can watch them in my house and pause them etc when I need to)

Colin Gross

@Ash I concur. This is one of the best things.

doppelgreener

@Ash That's how I tend to like them too, though for some I go out of my way to see them in theaters. :D

GreySage

@Ash Agreed, plus I don't have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to see it

doppelgreener

@Ash This offer of mine extends indefinitely, of course.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener is it that mysogyny driven in this case? Or something else? Liking one story line's reality over another?

user15026

18:42

If I had someone to go with, I might go see more movies outside my house - I suspect when WorldEngineer is finally living in my house this might help - he likes to go see movies. :)

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Where to talk about it though?

user15026

@doppelgreener Thank you for being explicit about that - I assumed as such, I just wanted to be like "oh hey I am bad at things"

Colin Gross

e.g. Capt Marvel was soooo much better in the xyz series of comics, so don't even bother with this movie because it's based on the abc series

Yuuki

@ColinGross Oh man, if we’re talking about comics, Captain/Miss Marvel has some of the worst excesses regarding portrayal of women in comics history.

Colin Gross

@GreySage You can spend ridiculous amounts of money on home entertainment. Don't say who does that kind of thing by naming any names... but definitely me.

@Yuuki I don't know much about that. Like, chain mail bikini bad?

user15026

18:45

@ColinGross Movies/TV I am good at not spending on, but books are another story. (I realized last night that my ebook collection finally crossed 3k items)

Colin Gross

@Ash Impressive.

user15026

I mean that's like a decade of books, and some were shared with me by friends etc. but still. (I have not read them all.)

Colin Gross

@Ash Do you ever page through the previews of other novels at the back just to get the 100% completion on those?

user15026

:4948566 Sometimes! Sometimes I am just like "okay nope" like if something has a looooong bunch of appendices or something

Colin Gross

Like, after you're done reading the main story and the progress is 99% because there's 6 pages of an excerpt from the author's next book?

Yuuki

18:48

@ColinGross Definitely the suit, yes. But also like "kidnapped, brainwashed, raped, gives birth to her own rapist, and the other Avengers are totally okay with the whole thing" bad.

user15026

@ColinGross if it isn't too big I'll just flip through really fast.

Colin Gross

@Ash Ooo... appendices. Yeah. Sanderson novels usually have a few dozen pages of those at the back to contend with.

user15026

@Yuuki nopes right out

Yuuki

This was in the 80s.

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Well, when you say it like that... it sounds even worse.

user15026

18:48

@ColinGross Yeah, a lot of fantasy tends to, or the non-fiction stuff I read

Yuuki

Recently, it's been a lot better (though it's pretty goddamn low bar to clear) but there was a whole lotta NOPE back in the day.

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Sadly, still better than some of the news that comes across my feed from around the world.

MikeQ

@Yuuki By any chance were those storylines written by male authors?

Colin Gross

@MikeQ The recent ones that were better? Probably... but that seems like a really safe bet given the preponderance of men in the field.

doppelgreener

@ColinGross I am not sure of everything that drives the hate campaign specifically, but I know some of it is hate for the character being given their full-body outfit instead of wearing what was previously basically a swimsuit.

Like, they are furious she has sensible clothing in their comics instead of being sexually objectified.

user15026

18:52

@doppelgreener ooooh no how dare they get clothes

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener If I learned anything from Victorian times, it's that you can totally sexually objectify people regardless of what or how much they're wearing. Plus, everything is somebody's porn.

user15026

@ColinGross I read enough historical romances to know just how scandalous ankles can be :P

MikeQ

Whoa this is a family-friendly chat room. Let's keep the ankle talk to ourselves, ok

user15026

My apologies ;)

Xirema

Just be glad we didn't descend down the road to talking about....

>_> <_<

...... Handholding......

doppelgreener

18:56

@ColinGross Well, yes, totally. We can sexualise people in full-body outfits too, and comics have definitely done that plenty of times.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener Haters gonna hate. Costume choice seems like a peculiar one given how ridiculous all the super hero outfits are.

doppelgreener

@Xirema [GASP]

@ColinGross Well, 'cause it's primarily practical instead of primarily sexy and that's terrible apparently.

Yuuki

@MikeQ I mean, it was the 80s.

Colin Gross

Along the costume lines, HeMan was totally in a bondage outfit, right? That's not just my ~~wishful thinking~~ objective observation, right?

Yuuki

Like I don't really want to rag on the past, but the old Miss Marvel costume had a sash.

Like, it just sorta dangled there for no practical purpose.

Colin Gross

18:58

@doppelgreener Anything that's not pajamas or yoga outfits sounds terrible.

@Yuuki I'm going to contend that sashes must be important because of the number of powerful people that wore sashes historically. I mean, they wouldn't wear stupid sashes and hats for no reason right? There had to be power in those accoutrements.

Yuuki

Well, in those cases, the sashes would be emblematic of status and wealth.

Not really traits a superhero is trying to exemplify.

doppelgreener

This was a sexy hip sash, not a wealth and status sash.

Yuuki

The one thing I think I might miss from the comics regarding Captain Marvel is the banter between Carol Danvers and Peter Parker.

Especially the part where she takes him flying and they run across some enemies. He's all like "I'm a spider, wtf am I supposed to do 12,000 feet in the air?"

GreySage

Colin Gross

I would like a +3 sash of wealth.

Yuuki

19:03

He ends up having to piggyback because she can fly and is bulletproof, while he is neither of those things.

Colin Gross

Might illustrate a whole set of items this evening with the theme +X of Wealth. The bonus is to the caste or socioeconomic divide perceived by others.

@Yuuki Smart plan. Always put a bullet proof hero between yourself and bullets.

Like +2 to perception checks against the wearer to perceive that he is, in fact, a pompous a-hole.

Ascot, sash, excessively large hat, lacy doublet, boots of impractical material... what else?

MikeQ

@ColinGross Diamond-encrusted platinum coins

Colin Gross

@MikeQ Ha! I like that. Not worth more than a regular platinum coin... just more expensive to make.

Yuuki

@ColinGross In fact worth less than a platinum coin as it is no longer legal tender.

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Even better!

MikeQ

19:17

Expressions of wealth tend to vary by culture and community

e.g. a bat-guano-encrusted copper coin could be valuable among artists

Colin Gross

@MikeQ I feel like ridiculous head wear is a common theme throughout humanity.

@MikeQ or demolitionists.

MikeQ

Yes, headgear is often used as some expression of social status (political, economic, religious, military, teams, etc)

Yuuki

@MikeQ A bat-guano-encrusted sulfur coin would be immensely useful to wizards.

Colin Gross

Fireballs for days!

kviiri

@Derpy I have, I think, but the hunting minigame is a bit of a chore

Colin Gross

19:36

@kviiri But how else are you going to get to carry 80 lbs of two metric tons of hunted bison back to your caravan?

kviiri

@ColinGross psh. I'll just buy food at a shop

V2Blast

good times

Colin Gross

20:27

The errata for 5e states that elves still need to long rest for 8 hours to gain the benefits even though they're only in trance for 4? or do they take 1/2 the time to long rest?

MikeQ

@ColinGross The 2015 SA Compendium says Trance was not intended to let them complete long rests in 1/2 time

Colin Gross

Thanks. That's what I thought

MikeQ

@ColinGross Wait, no, I'm wrong. That ruling is outdated apparently. The 2019 Compendium says that Trance lets an elf complete a long rest in 4 hours.

Yuuki

Could an elf complete a short rest in 30 minutes?

Colin Gross

Looking at the PHP errata and the def for trance, they don't interact aside from the amount of sleep required.

@Yuuki Are you a project manager?

trogdor

20:35

@Ash lol XD

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross moving the trance chat here

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose What now?

Rubiksmoose

Oh NVM lol looks like I'm late to the party

So for an elf, they have to trance for 4 hours correct? None of which can be light activity?

Colin Gross

Ugh... f'ing crawforded

Looks like the 2019 Sage Advice settles it. I had that ancient 2017 errata in my head. Pshhhh

Yuuki

@Rubiksmoose Maybe you would've been on time if you were an elf and had a full 4 hours of rest.

MikeQ

20:41

@Rubiksmoose The 2015 SA says yes, the 2019 says no

I suppose you could resolve them like... they still need the full 8 hours to long rest, but only need to sleep for half the duration of the long rest?

Davo

As a level 6+ Warforged Hexblade Warlock, if I don't take a long rest, I can keep my Accursed Spectre indefinitely. Any flaws?

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ to which parts? and lets just stick to the most recent one since that is really the operative one.

Colin Gross

@Davo Sounds like a coffeelock

Davo

No, I'm not storing up any slots.

Just keeping my pet.

RAW (WGtE), Warforged don't suffer negative effects for skipping long rests. They just don't get any benefits of taking one.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose But what year did you start playing the game in? Also, what's the relative velocity of the campaign in question to an unladen swallow? All of these HAVE to be considered when dealing with being crawforded. /S

Rubiksmoose

20:44

lol

The way I read it is that elves have to trance for 4 hours. they can't do any light activity. If they do this, they complete their long rest in 4 hours.

Or that what I'm reading right now anyways.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose That appears to be the 2019 ruling in the SA compendium.

4hr trance + 0hr light activity = long rest.

Rubiksmoose

Yup.

Yuuki

@Rubiksmoose Would be pretty funny if they ruled this way: "Elves have to trance for 4 hours. If they trance successfully, then they can reduce the time to complete their long rest to 4 hours".

Rubiksmoose

But man could that be any more confusing? (answer: yes. see before errata)

Yuuki

So 4-hour trance + 4-hour long rest = 8 hours.

Rubiksmoose

20:46

@Yuuki hahaha

@Davo on a breif look it looks like this works to me.

warforged explicitly suffer no ill effects from exhaustion so any rest-related hijinx is feasible with them.

MikeQ

And none of the half-elves get Trance, right?

Colin Gross

I have a bit of campaign arc that involves Dal Quori (the realm of dreams).... with elves are they unable to sleep? I've always ruled that they can sleep if they want, or be unconscious by non-magical means.

Rubiksmoose

15

Q: Does an elf's daily trance require 4 consecutive hours?

Elves need to meditate 4 hours a day to be in shape according to the PHB. Trance: Elves do not need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental ex...

This actually disagrees

MikeQ

If a half-elf completes a long rest in 8 hours, and an elf completes a long rest in 4 hours, how long does a double elf need to long rest?

Davo

@Rubiksmoose Thanks for the quick check.

Yuuki

20:50

@MikeQ What's the time signature?

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema depends on what the hand is holding ...

trogdor

@doppelgreener ah cool, those are in more or less the same position for me, I take that as a sign I will probably like it

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ it's a trick! double elves are so elvish that they actually require 3x the amount of sleep that a normal elf does.

Yuuki

Double = two. Two elves require a total of 8 hours of trancing.

LOGIC'D

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Ahh yes, the single elf local minima paradox.

MikeQ

20:59

@Yuuki If they trance in parallel, does that reduce the total time to 2 hours?

Yuuki

@MikeQ Someone has to keep watch.

MikeQ

@Yuuki That's what the third elf is for.

Yuuki

In that case, it takes 14 hours for a long rest.

8 hours for two elves to trance, 4 hours for one elf to trance, and 2 hours to debate about the watch schedule.

MikeQ

No no, you'd need 4 hours

Elves can complete a trance in 4 hours. So if you have 4 elves, and each rests for 1 hour, then that's a total of 4 hours.

And if they rest in parallel, then the total time is 1/(1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 +1/4) = 1 hour

BESW

And on an infinite grid of ideal elves, what's the equivalent rest duration between these two nodes?

Yuuki

21:11

Elves just make horrible musicians because whenever everyone else rests for four beats, they trance for two and it just throws everyone's rhythm off.

MikeQ

@Yuuki [out-of-sync rimshot]

BESW

Ba dum-pish.

doppelgreener

@trogdor i think you will :D

trogdor

it seems likely enough

V2Blast

21:30

A cool-looking Kickstarter for a scifi RPG: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/swordsfall/welcome-to-tikor-the-swordsfall-rpg-setting-and-ar
"Swordsfall isn't just a story, it's a world. It's a dive into pre-colonial Africa for all the rich lore you've never heard of. It's an exploration into a world where the majority of the faces are dark, yet isn't constrained to one corner. It's a world where women hold power equal to men and the merit of ones soul is what propels them through life. It's a world where spirits aren't to be feared, they are to be embraced. In a time where we know that r…

Yuuki

@V2Blast Yay, the team looks pretty good too.

I've seen more than a few Kickstarters touting some form of minority culture representation and the team is all white guys that wouldn't really have the actual perspective.

doppelgreener

22:15

@Yuuki yeah that's deifnitely not ideal

there's a reason black panther succeeded so well in telling an afrofuturist story

Shalvenay

22:50

hey there @linksassin

linksassin

g'day folks

Shalvenay

@linksassin how're things going?

linksassin

not too bad. Though I'm having a frustrating argument on another stack site about what is on topic.

it's a small site and the moderation is much less strong than here. They try to answer everything. User asked a question that clearly belongs on another site and has nothing to do with the site it was posted on. I get shouted down for saying it was off topic.

Shalvenay

oof

linksassin

Just makes me very grateful for the work SSD et al do.

Shalvenay

23:05

yeah, RPG.SE as a whole is a very well-run site

linksassin

It's funny because other sites call us strict but then have issues that never occur here

Shalvenay

hey there @Ruse, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

Ruse

Hello

GreySage

@linksassin RPG.stack is an example of 'unobtainable perfection', so it's not really fair to other sites to compare them to us.

linksassin

@GreySage Haha, I'm not quite sure I'd say perfection but we're doing a good job.

GreySage

23:13

@linksassin That was a reference to a discussion with some SO mods from yesterday. Beware that reading those comment threads may destroy whatever faith you had left in SO.

linksassin

@GreySage Oh yeah, I saw that absolute disgrace of moderation

Ruse

That looks like a real mess

linksassin

Honestly I feel like it needs to be reports to SE officially but we don't have the ability to do that. Flags will only go to the very mods that are causing the problem

GreySage

@linksassin if a mod gets flagged, do they see it, or does it only get seen by other mods?

linksassin

@GreySage I don't tbh. I thought it just went into a central moderation queue that can be seen by all mods. But it may not be true

Ruse

23:26

Perhaps the mods could place a flag as a test to see what happens

linksassin

Found an answer: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/279499/…

The flag will still go to the mods. If we want to message the CMs we need to use the "Contact Us" button.

Also: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/202222/…

V2Blast

23:54

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/b14w7k/shower_thought_a_creature_could_use_its_legendary/
"Shower Thought: A creature could use its legendary resistance to automatically succeed on a death saving throw"

linksassin

Do legendary creatures get death saves? I wasn't aware of any that did

CTWind

@V2Blast I can just imagine a DM planning on not spending any legendary saves so that the NPC can wake up 4 hours later and walk away, and then a PC calls for nonlethal damage on the last attack anyways.

@linksassin Rules basically say a DM can arbitrarily choose any important NPC to use death saves instead of auto-dying at 0 if they wish.

Transcript for