TRPG General Chat

trogdor

00:00

The point is it shouldn't just be "oh I was raised that way I'm stuck with it"

Yuuki

I was raised with little to no spiritual guidance or influence from my parents. We went to church maybe two or three times, but that was more of a "everybody in Texas goes to church, so let's give it a try". And I went to Sunday bible school, but that was just to give me something to do on a slow day.

user15026

You can do like me and think you've got it figured because your family has always done the thing and then the thing forcefully ejects you from a cannon, you wander around for a bunch of years going "nope I want none of it" then all of a sudden slowly you learn from a friend about a thing and then BAM it all falls together like a really cool LEGO house.

Yuuki

As a consequence, I'm not very spiritual and sometimes I wonder if I'm missing out on some fundamental human experience.

user15026

(well, a LEGO house in process but they've shared the cool LEGO with you to build with)

Yuuki

I suppose I'd be considered atheist but I personally feel more spiritually apathetic than anything.

trogdor

00:04

@Yuuki I mean, I think spiritual experiences can be obtained,... Other ways

If organized religion doesn't make you feel so great

There's stuff like personal philosophies and meditation and even certain kinds of music

user15026

nods everyone's gotta figure out what the truth of it looks like for themselves, in the end.

trogdor

Or you know, you could also look up some religions, do research on what might work for you personally

@Ash Yep

BESW

I've found that a lot of people think whichever specific version of religion they've had a bad experience with, is representative of the entire spectrum of faith. It can take a lot of strength to reach out again, though.

trogdor

Personally I feel rewarded every time I do something spontaneous and nice for someone else, and I meditate a little every day

Not on any kind of schedule even

Not even for the same amount of time every day

user15026

@BESW emphatic nods

BESW

00:09

(I recently ran across a very interesting discussion amongst First Nations peoples about how many forms of Western atheism are, to their eyes, indistinguishable in practice from secular Christianity.)

trogdor

@BESW yeah I think that my experiences in high school have probably colored my view of the whole spectrum of religions a little

user15026

@BESW There can be a similar fanaticism and such, yeah

trogdor

@BESW yeah actually I mean, when someone is rabidly atheistic in such a way as to attack people of any kind of faith, it looks a incredibly similar

BESW

I didn't understand all their points because I'm so far outside the epistemologies of the discussion, but it seemed like there were several different facets from
"If you celebrate Christmas then you're still a performative Christian no matter what you believe"
to
"refuting one sect's notion of divinity is only atheism if you believe that specific divinity is the only possible kind of divinity... so you're reinforcing that sect's epistemology by treating it as the only one worth considering."

trogdor

And I don't mean it to come off as if I hate all organized religion, what it is is far more about distrusting the whole dynamic of them and the people at the top of the power structure, especially the many divisions of Christianity or other Western religions that operate in a similar manner

user15026

00:14

nods It feels like it would be a many faceted thing, but I can see a lot of ways for it

trogdor

@BESW hmm mean I can see how it looks that way I guess,... But the Christmas thing doesn't really feel like a religion anymore

It's become a Capitalism holiday

At the very least for people who celebrate it but don't go to church

BESW

Yeah, there's room for discussion about particulars in there, but I think it's ultimately a difference about the interconnection of faith, religion, belief, practice, and society.

trogdor

Yeah

I won't argue against that

I would just say, it's definitely more Complicated than "you still celebrate a holiday that started as, and still is technically, a Christian thing"

Christmas itself has been changed by the kind of people celebrating it

BESW

As I understand it, some of the First Nations cultures in the discussion were coming at it from the perspective that performance puts power into the world regardless of your internal monologue while undertaking the performance.

trogdor

And it started originally as a pagan practice

BESW

00:21

Aye, and there's also arguably a difference between the teachings of Christ and the rituals and traditions that His followers have created or adopted, and we tend to be sloppy about lumping them all into one "Christianity" label.

trogdor

@BESW ok,.... But that ignores the fact it started as a pagan practice then

BESW

@trogdor The nature of the power can change, though, depending on context.

trogdor

And also, I'll reiterate, we have Changed what Christmas is by practicing it while not being Christian XD

@BESW yes that's fair

It's an alter to Capitalism now

V2Blast

Someone made a spreadsheet showing the magic item prices from both the Sane Magical Prices guide and the Discerning Merchant's Price Guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/b0afyy/magic_item_prices_for_the_sane_and_discerning/
Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OG7UsbsjNFX4zVkDORiem1ySUGYrhu-wrTRnGEk4jgc/edit#gid=0

trogdor

At least to a certain degree

Ben

00:24

Christianity did the same.

The one thing I do find amusing is that when Romans came in and occupied new lands, they'd assimilate religious icons and practices into their own.

Ugh. Mobile.

Reverse that lol

trogdor

Yeah sometimes I get double posts too

Oh wait but you aren't on a phone or something

?

Ben

I am.

trogdor

Oh ok

Lol

Nvm

Ben

I meant reverse those first two posts haha. The "Christianity did the same" is in response to the Romans

trogdor

Ah got it

Yeah they both did it for relatively similar reasons too

Rome wanted people to rebel less

"see we worship your god too" was one way of trying to get that outcome

Course they still got rebels all over the place but that's what happens when you conquer everyone you can see

Ben

00:32

Precisely

trogdor

And don't get me wrong, some of the things Rome accomplished were extremely cool, but for each of those things there was at least 5 horrible things they did

And they set the standard for imperialistic (bad)(words)(oh)(noes) standard for all of Europe

(which in turn did the same for America)

Colonies for everyone

:(

Ben

00:52

[Depressed party popper]

trogdor

Sorry

Ben

Lol

BESW

Here, have a distraction!

Bohemian Rhapsody mariachi innovación mexicana

►

Ben

Next time you S/O is angry, put a towel around their shoulders, and say "SUPER MAD"

They may laugh

They may kill you

trogdor

Lol

Yuuki

00:55

@trogdor We're going to find out that the secret ingredient to Roman concrete is the blood of conquered peoples, huh.

Ben

Pompeii was an inside job

trogdor

@Yuuki I doubt it but like,... Wouldn't put it past them either

BESW

@Yuuki I thought we figured out it was phillipsite in the volcanic ash reacting with seawater to create crystalline aluminous tobermorite?

Yuuki

@BESW I was actually about to mention volcanic ash in response to Pompeii.

BESW

'cause they used a specific kind of volcanic ash from specific places for their structures, and it had those particular qualities.

So concrete basically had a self-healing chemical reaction initiated by exposure to seawater, meaning whenever it cracked and seawater hit previously unexposed areas, the concrete would expand to fill the crack with even more durable material than the original.

trogdor

01:03

@BESW this is pretty awesome

@BESW also wat

Wolverine-crete?

BESW

Yup.

MikeQ

@BESW That's a really cool superpower, wish I had it

trogdor

Aqua-Wolverine-crete

BESW

Modern architectural materials engineers are going kinda wild over the idea of a material that gets better over time, because we're used to thinking of building materials as something we want to NOT change in response to its conditions.

Because for most of our modern materials, that change is bad.

Yuuki

01:19

Yeah, for most modern engineering, if the material morphs into something stronger, why didn't you make it that strong in the first place?

trogdor

I think it's more that no one thinks we have materials we can use that can really do much against eventual entropy

Even the strongest stuff we can make rusts or chips or rots or something eventually

And maybe just making the strongest material isn't as good as something that will fix itself

Or at least doesn't need as much work to maintain

BESW

01:37

I think we tend to get caught up in the notion that static permanence is the ideal goal.

It's good to open up to the idea of structures that change and modify and renew just like their natural environments do.

V2Blast

@Ben Platinum mad?

Ben

02:07

Lol

Geoffrey Lim

03:54

Modern bulidings?

I'm kinda annoyed at people who claim that we don't understand things because roman concrete is better than modern concrete

It isn't, well it isn't in the very specific way modern concrete is used

A modern building made out of roman concrete would fall to pieces.

BESW

Did anybody make that claim?

trogdor

No one said it was literally better

We may have marveled at how it was good for what it was used for

And we talked about how we think about materials we use for building

You are the only one who made that particular logical leap

MikeQ

04:09

If Roman concrete was so great, then Rome would still be around

2

trogdor

Well

BESW

@MikeQ I want to sit and stare at this sentence for hours.

MikeQ

You're welcome

trogdor

It was good for what they used it for

They didn't use it for magical "fix our messed up society" purposes

Nothing was cut out for that

Yuuki

04:21

Rome, Georgia

Rome is the largest city in the county seat of Floyd County, Georgia, United States. Located in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, it is the principal city of the Rome, Georgia, Metropolitan Statistical Area, which encompasses all of Floyd County. At the 2010 census, the city had a population of 36,303. It is the largest city in Northwest Georgia and the 19th largest city in the state. Rome was built at the confluence of the Etowah and the Oostanaula rivers, forming the Coosa River. Because of its strategic advantages, this area was long occupied by the Creek and later the Cherokee people...

trogdor

Har har

MikeQ

@Yuuki But was it built in a day?

trogdor

Lol

Shouldn't it,.... Not have been?

KorvinStarmast

04:39

I have a reason to feel happy; there's been a Brian sighting.

KorvinStarmast

04:51

@Ben you are still alive, so that advice may still be good. ;)

@yuuki I wonder if people from Rome Georgia and the ones from Athens Georgia have any kind of rivalry.

My younger brother spent a bit of time in Athens GA in his band days.

V2Blast

05:49

Is there a Sparta, GA?

trogdor

Lol

Or a Thebes

Or Corinth

And that about exhausts my memory on what they were all called there X/

kviiri

06:18

Related to the above, there's an achievement in EU4 for owning all three Georgias: the US state, the land in Caucasus and the island of South Georgia in the Atlantic ocean.

Ben

07:20

@KorvinStarmast or maybe I haven't been game to try haha

trogdor

@kviiri sounds like a weird Risk bonus too

Ben

07:58

So I had a nice walk to work this morning. The sun was just rising, so it was still cool. The kookaburras were having a laugh, and there were a few kangaroos that tried to pick a fight with me. The flies were a bit crazy though.

Otherwise it was a really good morning walk

kviiri

08:18

@Ben Doesn't it bother you that we'e swiping the sky fireball to our side of the globe?

I've adjusted my sleeping schedule but the sky fireball keeps coming up before me :(

BESW

Are we talking swipe like...

or...

kviiri

@BESW Filch, pilfer, nab, snatch... you name it we do it

BESW

So the first one.

kviiri

yea

Ben

08:39

It's fine, really we always steal it back

trogdor

09:13

@kviiri yes, a true believer

BESW

Character concept: Pro-bono warlock lawyer.

vicky_molokh

09:35

@BESW @BESW Someone's been reading the Craft series, eh?

BESW

09:55

Nope.

Binging comedy reviews of a long-running low-budget horror film series that pre-dates Gladstone's series by 24 years.

Heck, it's only four years younger than Gladstone himself.

vicky_molokh

Meanwhile, I'm having second thoughts about my attempt to let down a newcomer gently when it comes to an answer. Being not very apt at social stuff, I'm worried that in the short space of a comment, it may have come off as either too harsh, or not sufficiently clear about why I'm sceptical of the interpretation.

2

A: What Are the Game-Mechanical Advantages of High-Impulse Low-Thrust Drives in the Space Toolkit?

I haven't played this system, but I'll try to answer based on the quoted rules and what I know about Fate generally, and a charitable interpretation of the rule: a ship with Impulse greater than Mass is able to move one more space on the map per exchange for each step of difference I would ...

Derpy

Guys, I think we will have to fix our game manuals.

Apparently we got it wrong all along.

Fire isn't weak to water

KorvinStarmast

11:13

@trogdor there is a corinth tennessee

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast oh shoot XD

KorvinStarmast

@Derpy they had the wrong background music for that awesome video- this would have fit better

@trogdor The zip code for Sparta, Georgia, is 31087. Have not yet heard if they have tried to get Gerard Butler to do a promo for their municipality along the lines of "This is Sparta!" or some such.

@vicky_molokh the "I have not played this system" style of answers often get a negative reception due to the idea behind answers having "expert" as an assumption for SE in general.

nitsua60

@vicky_molokh It doesn't seem harsh to me, if that's your worry. That said, it's not clear to me what the purpose of the comment is: what's the change to the answer you'd hope your comment prompts?

vicky_molokh

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, on one hand, those words at the start of an answer look worrying. On the other, (a) at least those words are honest and (b) for many books and book-sections, it's unrealistic to expect our small population to include the 2-3 people with actual play experience.

KorvinStarmast

@vicky_molokh aye, understood. Also, what @nitsua60 said.

off to work, best wishes to all.

vicky_molokh

11:26

@nitsua60 I'm not sure the answer can be improved. But I'm pointing out what makes it lacking in the context of the scope I tried to establish in the question (as first I'd like to see if there's something I don't know/see/understand in the RAW before trying to bend/hack/rewrite it).

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Hope you don't commute in a max 8 =\

vicky_molokh

The 'I assume it's non-linear' in the other answer is also a warning bell, as it hints that the answerer didn't check/confirm the effects of the formula as presented in the book, and relies on an assumption.

nitsua60

@vicky_molokh Then I might suggest that the comment could be reworded to something like "I'm not entirely convinced by what seems like an overly-charitable reading--can you explain how you conclude that X is the right reading, not Y or Z?"

vicky_molokh

(Sure, it is non-linear, it averages an ×2-×3 increase per shift, but that shouldn't be guessed.)

@nitsua60 Thanks, will do.

nitsua60

np

SmokeDetector

11:35

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword with email in body, pattern-matching email in body (236): dr okoko help me bring back my ex lover by selena pege on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

trogdor

11:54

@KorvinStarmast lol

goodguy5

12:35

Welp, this comment is going to get deleted, but I'm still amused.

Mage Hand indeed knows love and loss; it has experienced both joy and sorrow; the actions of Wizards and Sorcerers has brought the Mage hand to anger and despair. All of these things and yet you ask "Can the Mage Hand feel?".

doppelgreener

that is great :D

Sdjz

@goodguy5 Probably no need to be deleted, joke comments are often kept

This question is important : a lot is at snake here. — Gael L Jan 30 '18 at 14:15

doppelgreener

as a general rule we keep comments that are significantly upvoted unless there's a compelling reason for them to go, so popular joke comments get kept

"has been acted on" is a compelling reason for them to go which doesn't apply to joke comments

BESW

It took me years and a rather snotty meta post to get a completely irrelephant and unfunny comment deleted, because it had 40 upvotes due to being a reference to a popular TV show.

goodguy5

@BESW earelephant?

Rubiksmoose

12:44

40 upvotes. Must have been a very popular one lol

trogdor

@goodguy5 hehehehe I like that one

BESW

A popular TV show reference, on a very popular RPG.SE post.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah, and I'm hoping that doesn't occur so much now. Until recently we couldn't see who flagged a comment so we had to assume it was just some random person. Nowadays we can contextually handle comments differently if the post's own author flagged the comment, so I tend to completely ignore the upvotes if an author wants a comment on their post gone—they want it gone so it'll be gone.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh Slight tangent: it might be unrealistic to expect that people have played a game, but it doesn't change our answer requirements of course. We'd much rather a question do unanswered until someone with experience comes along than have a low quality answer from someone who hasn't played it.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose Stiiiill waiting on some of mine.

doppelgreener

12:49

@KorvinStarmast We frequently also delete them. "I haven't played this system" = "I have absolutely no idea if this answer is any good and will never be able to back it up. I am making a wild guess." Plus, it's usually someone assuming that another game works identical to D&D... and usually it's nothing like D&D.

vicky_molokh

There's also the fact that ruletext analysis can be done reasonably well with no actual play experience with it. Not always easy, sure.

That being said, from my PoV both of the answers are leaning towards the case of having an insufficiency of an idea about the topic.

BESW

Yes, but this answerer hasn't read the rules either.

They've read the quoted material and a related system.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh The amount of times I've seen this done well is ... very few, and extremely simple situations. Anyone can analyse the rule text, but they'll probably miss something important, and often it's how those rules fit into the broader context of the gameplay.

Rubiksmoose

Yeah they're basing their analysis on the generic Fate rules only, which is... Not great

vicky_molokh

(Then again, I want to encourage newcomers people to read the actual rules and try to blend into the community, not give up. Thus the worry about wording things too harshly.)

Rubiksmoose

12:51

I do think it is important for us to stress that only people with expertise in a given area and are able to support a given answer accordingly should answer.

BESW

@vicky_molokh There are several meta posts where people talk about strategies for doing this, and share formulas we use.

vicky_molokh

'Vicky, I bought the Space Kit and read the rules, you missed a useful nuance on an adjacent page XX, with it everything begins making sense' is an answer I'd find quite heartwarming.

@BESW Formulas?

For evaluating theorycrafty answers without actual play experience?

Rubiksmoose

Formulas for crafting comments.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh That would be fine, but this isn't that. This is "I'm going to parse just the quote you gave."

vicky_molokh

Yeah, that is disappointing.

doppelgreener

12:57

I think we have actually had a handful of decent answers like that in the past for obscure game systems.

The person put in a lot of work trying to get a holistic understanding of the system each time.

BESW

18

Q: Pre-made comments: A resource-gathering & workshopping thread

Pre-made comments are awesome. They're also super powerful tools. Let's workshop some new ones and improve the old ones! You've probably seen pre-made comments[i] used across the site by moderators, both diamond and not. They're efficient and help reduce the busywork of moderation[ii], but they'...

doppelgreener

(Now, the person knows about fate generally in this case, so that's not quite as bad as "I also have no idea how fate works".)

BESW

15

Q: We could use some more pro-forma comments

I'd like to brainstorm some possibilities for the modal comment-interventions that we tend to do: Welcome to the site, but your question needs work because reasons Welcome to the site, but your answer needs work because reasons Please stop arguing in comments! Please don't answer in comments. R...

discussion comments

@doppelgreener Yeah, it's not another Lovecraftesque or Lady Blackbird scenario.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener yeah I would even say that it would be solidly Not An Answer if they didn't know Fate at all or assumed Fate was D&D.

BESW

Or the recent comment on a Gumshoe One-2-One answer that thought a game-defining rule was the answerer's personal GMing choice.

(That comment also mistook a common lazy system shortcut for a wise insight into the nature of gaming.)

goodguy5

13:02

that reminds me....

Rubiksmoose

Isn't it kind of crazy that D&D has taken what is meant to be a kind of hacky way to get the game to work without working out all the bugs and people now kind of assume that it is good game design?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Crazy is a good choice of word, yes.

goodguy5

Is there an easy way to link another post in a comment? because I always have to copy-paste the title and the url in the ()[] format and I can never remember the correct order

vicky_molokh

@BESW Ah, by Dronz on my answer, that one?

Rubiksmoose

Like yeah of course the DM should be in control of fixing all the rules. This is the way all games should work. Like. No. Just stop.

doppelgreener

13:03

@goodguy5 I've been meaning to make a userscript to help with that, but otherwise no, I just have to do it manually.

vicky_molokh

Also, 'lazy system shortcut'?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 yeah the userscript is the way I do it as well.

BESW

@vicky_molokh "as having a real risk of death seems to me a powerful source of fear and the reality of the risk, and the player relating to the danger of the situation as real"

This is absolutely untrue. Death is often the most boring, tedious kind of risk you can have in a story.

But it's the easy, obvious risk.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I believe they are refering to 5e's reliance on DM house rules to patch the game together and make it work in lieu of actually working out all the details with design and playtesting.

BESW

Great answer, though even in a single-player horror game, I personally wouldn't intervene to prevent PC death, as having a real risk of death seems to me a powerful source of fear and the reality of the risk, and the player relating to the danger of the situation as real. — Dronz Mar 8 at 18:32

goodguy5

13:05

@Rubiksmoose I feel like I have a 5050 shot of getting it right, but everytime I do it in the wrong order

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I've gotten better at it, but I still do it wrong a decent percentage of the time when I'm on mobile for example.

BESW

(a) Gumshoe One-2-One is a single-player mystery game. If the PC dies, the game stalls out. So the system has created a way to delay fatalities 'til the end of the current adventure which is actually quite excellent: if you get fatally shot, you stagger around bleeding while you finish the case, then you die.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 the userscript I use makes it easy though, you paste the link in as part of a comment and it automatically converts it.

BESW

(b) The risk of sudden death tends to be a table-level tension due to losing the investment on sunk costs. While it's not something to always be avoided, it's rarely the best first resort.

goodguy5

I don't understand what userscripts are

Rubiksmoose

13:08

@goodguy5 userscripts are just little peices of code you can install onto your browser that change the way the site works

goodguy5

oh neat

like janky plugins

BESW

For example, I have a userscript that turns d6s into dFs in chat.

Sdjz

@goodguy5 bit of a bother but you can also click the "help" next to the comments which just expands slightly into a bunch of formatting references (on mobile as well)

Colin Gross

Is the Starfinder RPG basically Pathfinder in space?

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose and others, regarding the attitudes towards Rule Zero:
It seems like there's some sort of polarisation with it. Either it's the end-all-be-all of gaming, or it's absolutely unacceptable that anyone relies on it.
The reality is that playtesting is good to have, but no amount of playtesting can foresee everything.

goodguy5

13:10

@ColinGross basically

Sdjz

@ColinGross A bunch of rules are slightly different but mechanically it feels mostly the same, yes

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I wouldn't say it is polarizing. Rule 0 is used in lots of games. 5e just leans really heavily on it to support what some perceive to be a bit of poor design.

Colin Gross

@goodguy5 I feel like that accurately sums up so much software.

vicky_molokh

Oh. I have no idea about 5e specifically, and I've seen the attitude against it outside dungeon crawls.

BESW

Colin Gross

13:13

@Rubiksmoose I summon devil's advocate! The reliance on rule 0 some perceive to be a strength of the design.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh ah ok well I should have said that I have never seen such debate. So I, at least, am unaware of a larger controversy.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh I wonder if it is on a spectrum that tracks with how much responsibility a GM has in making the story go.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Well that is kind of where we started. The fact that it is seen as a strength may have to do more with the way they are selling it as such than as actually being a positive.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose There's a lot to be said for attractive packaging.

vicky_molokh

I would say that, for example, FATE games rely on it [Rule Zero] very, very much, just call it by different terms, usually with such ritual phrases as 'whatever fits the narrative'.

WoD seemed to be big on it, not sure about nowadays.

Rubiksmoose

13:18

Masks (PbtA) also has it somewhat. Though the DM had times they cannot break so I'm not sure that is a fair comparison actually.

BESW

One of the big challenges of RPG discourse is that the RPG "community" is actually many subgroups that overlap to varying degrees, and each subgroup tends to have its own specific jargon useage based on its experience and context.

vicky_molokh

Oh, it wasn't a jab against different terms, but rather a pointing out that the same concept is quite common within those games.

Colin Gross

I'm digging the Ars Magica system. Very little is needed from the storyguide aside from choosing some challenges. The difficulties of challenges, other personalities involved, etc are consensus of the table... which is kinda nice. Not a whole lot of rule 0, except where spelled out in the rules directly or asked for by the table.

vicky_molokh

(Games that seem to be, either by the authors or by the fandom, often advertised as antithetical to AD&D.)

doppelgreener

Consider there are many different versions of Rule Zero

For example, there is:
- The GM can change and veto all the rules.
- The GM's word is law, always.
- The GM can do whatever they want.
- The GM controls the rules not vice versa.

All of these are different and various games or social practices will nullify some (but not necessarily all) of these in different variations.

BESW

13:31

Yup, that's what I was getting at. We can't say "Rule 0" and have everybody be on the same page.

For a useful discussion, first terms have to get defined.

vicky_molokh

But in all of those cases, a written rule gets overridden by one of the four mentioned examples.

doppelgreener

They have things in common, they are not always the same.

vicky_molokh

That seems to be the thing that is polarising. I think. Based on what I've seen in various discussions between different gaming styles.

They're subsets of a single superset, and it's the superset that seems to be so polarising.

doppelgreener

Fate games don't rely on Rule Zero because they don't rely on anyone overwriting any of their rules because they only offer their rules as lego bricks to be used however seems appropriate in a scenario that's defaulted to freeform. That's an enormously different philosophy to how D&D thinks about its own rules and gameplay.

Something like D&D's Rule Zero isn't directly comparable to Fate's gameplay because of that paradigm difference.

goodguy5

Then you have some games that are like "THERE ARE NO RULES!!!! AHAHAHAHA"

doppelgreener

13:35

Then there are games when the GM is absolutely not allowed to break, change, veto, or override the rules, like Dungeon World.

vicky_molokh

But I'm getting at the fact that those games do use 'used however seems appropriate'. Essentially letting rulings overrule/take higher priority/act in place of rules (sometimes because the latter is absent).

doppelgreener

Sure, I agree. (That's another, new, different version of Rule Zero!)

vicky_molokh

And yes, there are games which take an opposite stance, relying on a more codified and solid set of rules, that are antithetical to the Rule Zero Superset.

doppelgreener

It's troublesome to approach Rule Zero in a holistic sense because, for example, while "use rules however they seem appropriate" is in the Fate philosophy, "the GM's word is law, always" is explicitly against the Fate philosophy, as are multiple other versions of Rule Zero I listed above.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener Is this what you're talking about with Fate? fate-srd.com/fate-core/running-game#youre-the-chairman-not-god

Rubiksmoose

13:42

Then we have a Paranoia with even a further different flavor being that the rules are basically unknown to players to an extent and also used as (fun) weapons against them

vicky_molokh

@doppelgreener I'm willing to use a different term than Rule Zero Superset for the phenomenon of the GM or table consensus overriding rules and/or filling the void where no rule dictates how exactly to handle a thing. What other term would you prefer in place of such a long paragraph?

doppelgreener

@ColinGross It's something not actually fully expressed in the Fate rules, but which becomes pretty noticeable through play. The best way I've found to articulate it is that D&D is like an engine: it is always driving your game forward and telling you the next thing to do. Fate is not an engine, it will not do these things, instead it relies on you having a narrative which will provide that driving force. Fate is similar to just being a bunch of lego bricks available to pick up along the way.

vicky_molokh

(I'm not being sarcastic.)

(I found that it's often more constructive to take a step back and accept another term than fight over terminology.)

Rubiksmoose

I'm honestly not sure there are any terms that are appropriate here to be honest.

doppelgreener

Fate, like Lego bricks, won't tell you what to do with them. They won't tell you what to do next in your game, they won't push you in any particular direction, they're just sitting there politely and patiently until you have something you want to do with them, and you piece them together however the situation needs.

Rubiksmoose

13:44

You might use a system that typifies that usage as shorthand though that is only fgood if people are familiar with that system. Eg Fate's version of Rule 0.

vicky_molokh

Also, for reference:

> The Silver Rule
the corollary to the golden Rule is as follows: Never let the rules get
in the way of what makes narrative sense. if you or the players narrate
something in the game and it makes sense to apply a certain rule outside
of the normal circumstances where you would do so, go ahead and do it.

Seems like the member of the same family of rules to me, yet there seems to be a reluctance to call the family by the family name.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh There isn't really a holistic term, just that BESW and I are poking at "the term being used in this discussion is overloaded."

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I would say this is more a cousin to Rule 0 than a direct relation fwiw.

doppelgreener

@vicky_molokh Here's what I mean: it's like we're talking about Fruit, and expecting everyone is imagining the same Fruit, but for some people Fruit means Apple, for some it means Orange, for some it means Tomato, and we're discussing how Fruit applies in a salad.

vicky_molokh

. . . and a cousin is not a part of a family?

kviiri

13:48

An old folk-wisdom is that one shouldn't change a rule before understanding the rule's intent. Regarding the different approaches to rules, I think an often neglected aspect is whether the game provides information on the effect it is hoping to achieve with its current rules --- and it also serves as a good starting point for house ruling.

2

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh Perhaps it was a bad metaphor, but while cousins are your relations they also norrmally don't have the same family name as you.

Colin Gross

@vicky_molokh Not part of your ~~direct~~ immediate family.

vicky_molokh

I half-regret using an unscientific metaphor.

kviiri

I think the lack of a coherent philosophy on what exactly are the rules there for is a major issue in most DnD tables I've been a part of, and no wonder --- DnD has rules that come from (seemingly) very diverse motivations, and usually comes with zero explanations why it does anything.

vicky_molokh

I should've said genus! ^_^

Rubiksmoose

13:52

I think the important thing is that talking about Rule 0 without specifying which flavor often leads to unproductive discussion since people interpret it differently.

vicky_molokh

But jokes aside, saying that the Silver Rule from Core and the Rule Zero from AD&D are different species of the same genus probably would've caused less ambiguity.

Rubiksmoose

When you say "Rule 0" with no further context all we know is that it is a rule somehow defining the GM's interaction with and power over the rules of the game.

kviiri

So I think there's a vast difference in "rule 0 with clear guidance on how to apply it" and "rule 0 without guidance". Sure, the typical minimum for guidance is "fun", at least officially, but what constitutes "fun" isn't really obvious in many RPG contexts, especially among beginning players.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose So the Rule 0 of the Rule 0 argument? We can each have our own argument from our own context as we're overriding the definition of Rule 0?

BESW

Rubiksmoose

13:56

hahaha

Colin Gross

@kviiri fun changes from year to year and between players. That's why you have a session 0. Session 0 bounded Rule 0? How many zero terms can we have? It seems very noughty

BESW

Both "rule 0" and "session 0" phrases grind my teeth in so many ways I can't quite define. They imply a lot of praxis that the concepts don't actually need, and in my experience is actively harmful.

Dec 30 '18 at 0:23, by BESW

I think the hobby would be inclined toward healthier table discussions if our phrase for them didn't imply they were one-offs AND independent of the actual game.

Dec 28 '18 at 23:54, by BESW

@RyanfaeScotland I've found that session 0 is often necessary, but rarely sufficient. Session 0 is less about figuring out everything about how the game will be played, and more about initializing an ongoing conversation about what we like and need which will continue over the entire campaign so we can course-correct as we go.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Could you please elaborate what you mean by 'imply a lot of praxis'? (Tertiary language speaker here, so sorry for a silly question.)

BESW

And Rule 0 is the same; the entire framing of it in the context of nested hierarchies of rules places it in a non-usefully narrow praxis for the scope of meanings it commonly has.

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