TRPG General Chat

RyanfaeScotland

00:09

Quiet in here...

Anaphory

@RyanfaeScotland It's holidays (and late night in my part of the world). Also, this room has its ups and downs in general

RyanfaeScotland

00:23

12:30am where I am too, I'm assuming you are UK? Holidays for me is prime interneting time. :)

Anaphory

@RyanfaeScotland Germany over the holidays, Netherlands in general, so even one hour later :)

RyanfaeScotland

@Anaphory Wow, that is late! Well with any luck I'll hang out here a bit more (save annoying my DM/Party with all my game chat when we aren't playing) and I'll get a better idea of the ebb and flow.

Anaphory

@RyanfaeScotland Yeah, I know. I got stuck trying to fix a (hobby) programming job I wanted to run overnight to see the results tomorrow morning, and suddenly it's two hours later :/

RyanfaeScotland

00:45

@Anaphory Anything I can help with? Programmer by trade...

BESW

@RyanfaeScotland Back when I was in D&D, I used "passive" for "not important enough to take the time to roll."

These days I'm more inclined to just go "Did you put points into that? Then okay you succeed."

It's all about matching the time you spend on something at the table to the reward you'll get out of it in terms of fun and story.

RyanfaeScotland

01:46

@BESW you never used it for secret stuff, like "Did they spot the glint of the magic axe that skeleton is clutching?" or "Did they notice the barkeep signalling to the orc at the door?"

BESW

@RyanfaeScotland A little bit, back in the day, but in recent years I've found that I'm not really interested in keeping that sort of secret from the players. In my experience we have more fun when we all know what's going on, so players can make decisions that maximize fun, dramatic stories.

Also, I tend to play in systems where you only roll dice (or check a passive number to determine an outcome) if both success and failure would be equally interesting: otherwise, just go with the more interesting/fun/dramatic outcome.

So, for example, I'll say "The barkeep is sneakily signalling to an orc at the door, but I'll give you a fate point if you decide your character doesn't notice."
"Okay, she's telling a really funny story and it's taking all her concentration not to laugh at her own joke."

Or they'll go, "No, she's really good at situational awareness, so I'll give you a fate point in order for her to notice the signal and casually move into a better position to eavesdrop on the conversation."

trogdor

Yeah Fate has shown us it can be really fun to decide what happens without relying entirely on random dice rolls fir every single decision

BESW

It puts the decision in the players' control without making the character act on out-of-character knowledge, so we get to watch as the orcs make plans behind her back or whatever. Players are happier to have their characters in bad situations if they made the choice to put 'em there, and it lets the GM be surprised by things that wouldn't happen if I weren't giving the players some of that control.

trogdor

Especially the extremely important stuff

Or the things we have a really good idea of what we want to happen and agree on it

BESW

Jul 12 '17 at 14:54, by BESW

It's the essence of the Universal Rule of Randomization: "Don't touch the randomiser unless you're okay with any result it might spit out."

trogdor

02:02

Or the times when it might be fun to play the villain disguised as your character because why wouldn't that be fun?

PS yes, it was the best

That was one of the most fun things I've ever done in an RPG system

Everyone collaborating to decide that their characters didn't notice that mine was acting a little funny due to not being the same person was 11/10

And playing that villain was great because she was a better father figure to his daughter because she thought he was a better parent than he actually was XD

BESW

That was so great.

Also the time a player decided not to even TRY to prevent his character from being mind-controlled, and we all just went with it and it led to one of the best dramatic conclusions to a session.

I could not have made that Doctor Who campaign so Doctor Who-y on my own, not at all.

trogdor

And we had already established that at some point he would be confronted with his bad parenting, and because it happened while the villain was pretending to be him, "he" handled it better than he should have

I am extremely happy we all dragged that section out as long as possible

It was the best

I think I even asked you if she had kids, you told me to decide, and I decided she didn't and was going to just imagine what a good parent was supposed to be

And she got it better than he ever managed just because she bothered to put a brain towards that particular task

Dr Light was too busy thinking of science

trogdor

02:25

One thing I also liked about it was that he wasn't supposed to be a bad parent from the start, but because of our group collaboration on this whole thing I realized he totally was

BESW

Definitely a highlight of my gaming experience.

And then there's the Gumshoe attitude, where "If a scene contains a core clue and a player character uses an Investigative Ability relating to that clue, the character will find it," because "Investigative scenarios are not about finding clues, they’re about interpreting the clues you do find."

Shalvenay

@BESW never mind that some clues are a function of negative space, if you will ;) (what's not there might be just as important as what's there)

BESW

@Shalvenay The narrative treats that kind of clue with the same mechanics.

In Bubblegumshoe, a character with points in Fashion might notice that somebody's not carrying the right purse for their ensemble.

Or someone with Forensics in Mutant City Blues might notice an absence of the usual traces of mutant activity at a crime scene which looks like the work of mutant.

Shalvenay

@BESW indeed -- I was offering that statement as additional justification for the mechanic working that way :)

BESW

Ah, yes.

Glazius

03:35

Say, @BESW, when you run demos do you run them in other chat rooms in here or on external sites?

BESW

Depends on the needs of the specific people involved. So far I've run games in RPG.SE chat rooms, and over Skype, Hangouts, and Discord. Usually always supplemented by shared Google Drive documents.

Glazius

Right. I imagine if it's something that needs a shared workspace this isn't ideal.

Shalvenay

@Glazius I've run games for Stackizens in The Back Room (our chat room for that purpose here on SE chat), over Discord, and in roll20, as well as using a mix of roll20 and Discord

BESW

Oh, yeah, I've done a little in Roll20 but never again would be soon enough.

Glazius

03:57

The audio does leave a little something to be desired, yeah.

Everybody's in flux until the holidays die down, but afterwards I figure I may as well be the change and run demos of some of the games I answer questions about.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, for what you do, the stuff Roll20 provides over Discord isn't much of an edge

BESW

@Shalvenay The only times I've found Roll20 necessary to a game was when we were doing grids-and-minis type stuff, which I'm not very interested in.

And even then, 4e was the only one where it felt irreplaceable, and that was SO MUCH WORK.

trogdor

Yeah it was

BESW

The sunk costs on Roll20 aren't worth the outcomes.

trogdor

Especially as the DM, in my experience

BESW

04:04

Like, for Cthulhu Confidential I spent a day trying to make Roll20 work for it... and wound up just using a Drive photo album.

trogdor

I had to practically stitch together the required stats and terrain for every encounter

Even copies of the same npc/monster enemy took extra work

It was ridiculous

And that's after figuring out how to make it work

Just thinking back to that makes me a little mad

V2Blast

05:35

Anyone here have the new release of the 5e PHB (after the 2018 errata)? Need to have someone check the wording of something in the book.
There are at least a few changes not listed in the errata, like the change to the wording of Action Surge.
I'm specifically looking to see if there was a similar change to the Great Old One warlock's Awakened Mind feature - because the wording's different on D&D Beyond than in my PHB, but it's not in the errata.

(Also, on that note, has anyone anywhere made a list of the changes to the core books that aren't in the errata, like the ones I just mentioned?)

RyanfaeScotland

09:32

Cheers for your thoughts @BESW and @trogdor, never heard of the fate system before but sounds interesting. I reckon I'm still fresh enough into the hobby though that dice rolling hasn't lost its novelty or become a burden.

BESW

Ah, yeah, it's not that dice rolling is a burden or boring--it's that it's just one tool, and systems like D&D tend to apply it to tasks where, in our experience, dice rolling is not the best tool for the job.

That said, there is definitely fun in the act of rolling dice and that's one of the things which attracts me to games like Roll For Shoes (ALWAYS roll to answer ANY question about the narrative) and Lady Blackbird (the more suited your character is to the task, the bigger a handful of dice you get to roll to resolve it).

trogdor

@RyanfaeScotland there isn't something inherently wrong with rolling dice, but yeah as @BESW said above here, I prefer not to use it for,... everything

even most versions of Fate have dice rolls for stuff

but just about any time you could roll the dice you could also use a fate point to just make a thing happen

BESW

There are a lot of other tools. Fate's currency system is one of them: instead of determining an outcome semi-randomly, the player chooses to be rewarded for making life harder for their character, or spends those rewards to make life easier.

trogdor

or you could make something happen with a fate point even when a roll wouldn't have otherwise happened

plus I like that the dice you do use in Fate are less,... random overall than a D20

you are most likely usually to get a neutral or small negative or positive outcome on the dice

BESW

Mm, and Fate's also got a more interesting outcome spread than D&D's binary pass/fail.

trogdor

09:39

and once an outcome does happen you can influence it with stunts and fate points (one way is letting yourself re-roll)

that too

BESW

11:25

Tonight's dinner: Tuna, cut thin, marinated in soy sauce and lemon juice with garlic, ginger, and pepper, then baked. Bok choy steamed on top of sauted onion and garlic with pepper, sesame oil, and Worcestershire sauce. Served with fresh baguette (baked by a friend).

AntiDrondert

11:45

Well, I had pilaf and some poh-tah-toes
Revel in your victory, while you can

BESW

Mmm, that sounds good too.

AntiDrondert

Quick question, dnd-5e:
Martial Adept feat says you gain another superiority die, if you already have superiority dice.
Will this still work if I take fighter battle master after taking this feat? Or will I have this 1d6 superiority die forever?

BESW

That sounds like a good main-site question!

BESW

12:13

Unexamined idea: take Cthulhu Dark's "you succeed at almost everything but that's not sufficient to win" mechanics and apply them to a superhero narrative.

AntiDrondert

12:26

It seems there is a question like that already, oh well, good for me, I guess

kviiri

17:48

Yoshi's Island (SMW2) is a pretty dang excellent game

This PSA was brought to you by me

KorvinStarmast

21:44

what does smw2 mean? @kviiri

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast Super Mario World 2 I assume.

KorvinStarmast

aah

GreySage

Yoshi's Island

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island is a 1995 platform video game developed and published by Nintendo for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System. In order to reunite baby brothers Mario and Luigi, who has been kidnapped by Kamek, the player controls Yoshi, a friendly dinosaur, through 48 levels while carrying Baby Mario. As a Super Mario series platformer, Yoshi runs and jumps to reach the end of the level while solving puzzles and collecting items. In a style new to the series, the game has a hand-drawn aesthetic and is the first to have Yoshi as its main character. The game introduces hi...

RyanfaeScotland

@KorvinStarmast - Definitely Super Mario World 2

RyanfaeScotland

22:46

This is so lame, I'm writing the backstory for my first ever D&D character and it is all coming together beautifully, really falling into place about how she ended up becoming a Ranger, why Forests are her favoured terrain and everything and yet my character keeps this all secret from her party so I'm not going to have a chance to tell them for months about it!

GreySage

23:01

I feel like a lot of "First characters" turn out to be rangers. I wonder if that really is a thing, and why.

BESW

23:19

Hmm. I could speculate.

RyanfaeScotland

I'd believe it for sure, and I'd blame Diablo in my case.

BESW

Self-sufficiency narrative, charismatic mammal, moderate complexity, a wide variety of cultural motifs to draw on outside specific fantasy tropes...

RyanfaeScotland

I just wanted to use a bow. :D

BESW

Why did you want to use a bow?

RyanfaeScotland

3 types of combat isn't it: melee, magic or ranged. Fighter, wizard or ranger :D

BESW

23:22

Keeps you away from the people with sharp pointy things? Reminds you of a film character you like?

RyanfaeScotland

@BESW, I reckon they are cool

Heavily influenced by film for sure, but I feel there is more tactics involved with a bow

Again, Diablo based, but melee I always thought was a bit brute force-ish. Stand and hit with axe till dead.

BESW

Interesting.

RyanfaeScotland

With a ranged weapon you are looking for position, taking on multiple targets, trying to control more of the battlefield.

BESW

I find that depends a lot more on the mechanics than the weapon, and I don't know enough about 5e to say specifically there.

In 3.5, on paper, melee classes were more concerned with positioning than ranged classes, but in practice it was a distinction without a difference.

In 4e, it REALLY depended on your class and build choices; most classes were designed to put a strong focus on positioning. One ranger class was more focused on damage and positioning was moderately important; another ranger class was focused on controlling the battlefield so positioning and tactical use of powers was SUPER emphasized in play.

GreySage

@BESW I'd probably blame Aragorn

BESW

23:31

@GreySage And Robin Hood, and Legolas, and Green Arrow, and...

GreySage

Note that in 5e a Ranger can be melee, and Rogues, Fighters, and Paladins can all be ranged (although Paladin's have more restrictions on Smites).

RyanfaeScotland

I feel like you guys aren't giving Brave enough credit, I am Scottish you know. ;)

BESW

mmm, true.

3.5 and 4e both gave rangers melee builds and 4e gave fighters and rogues some ranged builds but they were really niche.

...though there is nothing so horrifying as a 4e rogue multiclassed to ranger, wielding bolas. He deals no damage, but completely shuts down his targets so everyone else can forget tactics entirely.

RyanfaeScotland

And you could well be right, I don't know anything about 5e or any other version (did I mention that I'm new 100 times yet ;) ) so it could well be that the assumptions I hold on the Ranger aren't quite true. But it was the class that attracted me most based on these.

Haha nice

BESW

4e was far far too complex in some unnecessary ways, but it had so much genuinely playable build customization.

Very few trap options at all, and a lot of "find the synergy" options for away-from-table play.

GreySage

23:37

@RyanfaeScotland I did not know that, although I suppose your name should have given it away.

RyanfaeScotland

It may be a strange way to go about it but I didn't read too much about the other classes, I want my first game to be fairly 'pure' or 'organic'. I only want to learn what I learn in game, I don't want to go reading through the Monster Manual to learn all the strength and weakness and so on, or to read through the races and know beforehand that elves can't be trusted and giants are honourable (I'm making things up now as I don't know them!)

This could well bite me in the ass, but it is my only opportunity to do so as once I know these things I'll know them and they'll be no going back, so I reckon it is worth a try for the experience.

BESW

Apr 19 '13 at 12:05, by BESW

Which brings me to my regular mantra: "There is no right or wrong way to play an RPG so long as everyone involved is happy and safe."

GreySage

@RyanfaeScotland Seems like a fine idea to me. I've found a lot of DMs deliberately change things in their games to deviate from the 'norm' specifically to evoke a bit of what you said even in people who have lots of experience.

BESW

One of the interesting things about D&D-style systems is that, for most of them, most classes (or at least, role groupings) require re-learning a significant number of secondary systems so that the mechanical experience shifts dramatically when you change characters.

RyanfaeScotland

True words @BESW, and I have learnt enough that I'm hopefully not driving my DM crazy!

GreySage

23:42

Unless you are in a heavy min-maxing group (unlikely, since you are new), not knowing the details of all the races etc. won't really matter. Talk to stuff if you can, if you can't hit it until it stops moving.

Shalvenay

@GreySage yeah -- for instance, I'm not a massive fan of inventing monstrous phenotypes from scratch, but do have an affinity for changing up psychology/behaviors

RyanfaeScotland

Yeah @GreySage, that's one of the things that I think RPG could do well compared to video gaming, you see creature X and you don't know for certain that its weakness is item Y as the DM has free reign and could theoretically completely mix it up.

Shalvenay

@RyanfaeScotland yeah, that tends to be a much harder haul on players though, so that sort of expectation is best discussed up-front as a table

BESW

Not everybody wants to play the mystery-box game. [grin]

But there are RPG systems where that kind of knowledge is irrelephant, because conflict resolution hinges on other kinds of expertise.

Shalvenay

@BESW indeed

RyanfaeScotland

23:51

Oh yes, I was all about a session 0.

BESW

I tend to prefer games that don't boil down to "guess what the GM did."

Shalvenay

@RyanfaeScotland :) good

RyanfaeScotland

(I lurked here a lot before actually playing my first game, it's half of what got me interested)

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, having to play guessing games with the GM can be a damper on things

GreySage

@BESW Well, ideally the GM would include fairly obvious hints and clues if there is anything important to learn.

BESW

23:54

@RyanfaeScotland I've found that session 0 is often necessary, but rarely sufficient. Session 0 is less about figuring out everything about how the game will be played, and more about initializing an ongoing conversation about what we like and need which will continue over the entire campaign so we can course-correct as we go.

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