TRPG General Chat

Sir Cinnamon

15:00

@NautArch Was that tag burninated? I dont see it

NautArch

@ColinGross that still is a link to a specific instance and not a general rule with regard to pronoun antecedents

@SirCinnamon ha, I made an assumption there was one :) neeevvveerrrmmiiiinnnddd

Colin Gross

@NautArch If you're looking for a general rule in English, do you mean the rule that is most used? applies to most recent literature? or the rule with fewest exceptions?

Because I think it's all an elaborate trap.

I usually feel that examples are more tractable. I would expect the formal grammar definitions to be rather esoteric.

ravery

the issue is complicated by accepted literary style that breaks most grammar rules

Colin Gross

Ooo... regular and context-free grammars... that rabbit hole got deep quickly. I'll stick to my computer language parsing. It's much nicer.

@ravery Aren't they more like guidelines? Who parlays these days anyway?

NautArch

@ColinGross I'm saying if your'e going to use grammatical analysis as an answer, you better be right and well-supported. If there isn't a general rule, then you've got to find an equivalent sentence structure that proves the rule.

ravery

15:07

the commenters sentence for example is un grammatical ( a run on sentence), she should only have been used once, or a semicollon between each phrase ( which wouldn't really stop it from being a run on)

kviiri

Rule of thumb: If one has to use grammar analysis to prove a point regarding the rules of DnD, they've already lost the game.

3

Anaphory

@kviiri Beautiful use of ‘they’ as anaphora for ‘one’ in that sentence.

NautArch

@Anaphory username checks out.

ravery

well the question specifically asked what the pronoun "one" refers to

kviiri

@Anaphory Acknowledged during typing, but not really intentional :>

Colin Gross

15:10

@NautArch I don't think that's a general rule.

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman The issue isn't spell list, it is spell slots. Also, your class has a spell casting feature from original creation. For rangers, wisdom, for paladins, charisma. It's in the PHB in the first part of the class description, before the "by level" features are listed and explained.

NautArch

@ColinGross It's not a general rule. But if I'm going to analyze a question and upvote/downvote accordingly, I"m going to want to see the supported grammatical rules backed up.

KorvinStarmast

@Miniman Anyhoo, that's my take on it.

NautArch

And without the proper support, i'm going to downvote.

Colin Gross

@NautArch Well as long as you don't downvote my comment, I'm okay with it.

NautArch

15:12

@KorvinStarmast Hold up...where's the reference to the spellcastging feature prior to Level 2? Or are you using "by level 2" to support that?

@ColinGross Can't downvote a comment :) But I"m not flagging it, either. The issue is an answer that relies on it, not a comment.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Read the class description, from top to bottom in the PHB. It does not say you get a spell casting ability (wisdom) at level 2; you already have it as a ranger. what you get at level 2 is spell slots. And spells known.

Colin Gross

@NautArch There's a downvote flag?

Does the other field of flags support unicode? Can I supply other "👎"

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I'm trying to read for it and did a search. First time spellcasting is mentioned (on dndbeyond) is at level 2. Only prior reference is in the Deadly Hunter's description which states "...ranger's acquire the ability to cast spells".

Colin Gross

Oooo! I can.

I'm excited.

Can't flag my own comments. 😥

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Spellcasting is shown on the class ability table beginning at level 2 for Rangers, which suggests otherwise to me. I think it's explained first simply because of its relative importance.

KorvinStarmast

15:17

@NautArch In both the book and on roll20 PHB, the ranger's spell casting ability, wisdom, is mentioned first. Class tables are nice, but please read the actual text of the PHB to see what I am talking about.

@kviiri @NautArch I also disagree with "No, you can't, because it doesn't say you can" since I tend to approach "you can unless it says you cannot." As best I can tell, the only way you could cast a spell at level 1 is with a magic item or a scroll, since you don't yet have a spell slot. But you are a Ranger, and rangers have a spell casting ability (Wisdom) from day 1. What they need is slots to do it "from within" rather than "using a tool."

Also, they have no spell "known" until level 2, so only a tool makes it possible.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast I don't have an opinion regarding the issue itself, I just don't think the reasoning is very solid either way

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri It is rarely likely to come up, since D&D 5e is sorta low magic, and by the time a spell scroll shows up in treasure you are likely to be 2d level or above anyway.

And the casting is not guaranteed: it may fail.

GreySage

Just jumping into the conversation here, a Ranger does not have the spellcasting feature until level 2. That is when they get it (it says as much in both the class table and the spellcasting feature itself)

Colin Gross

@KorvinStarmast arcana check, yes? But failure doesn't use up the scroll

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast Hehe, I haven't really assumed most of the rule questions on this site to be driven by anything else than "academic" curiosity in ages :)

KorvinStarmast

15:22

@GreySage No, I disagree. What they don't have is Spell Slots, and Spells Known. They have Spell Casting Aiblity, which is wisdom, and which is used as the basis for the DC ability check for that scroll.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I'm reading the text and don't see any mention of spellcasting until Level 2 other than the language in "Deadly Hunter". I feel like I"m totally missing something obvious - what page/paragraph should I be looking at?

KorvinStarmast

@ColinGross Not an arcana check. The text is from "how to use a spell scroll" in the DMG. You may fail if you can't yet cast that level of spell.

@NautArch Try the first two pages of the Ranger class description. Also, try and parse "by the time you reach ..." implies you have already learned.

NautArch

@kviiri @KorvinStarmast Agreeing with Kviiri on this one. There are times where I look at an issue one way and times I look it at the other.

@KorvinStarmast Try Being Nice in talking about this, I'm open to the fact I've missed something and already cited the issue of "By the time.." being the meaningful part of your argument and asked you about that specifically.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch If you are a third level sorcerer, the same rule applies to your try at a 4th level spell. It's a spell higher than you can cast yet, and your Spell Casting ability (cha) is what is tied to your DC check to try and cast the spell from the scroll. You have a spell list, you are a sorcerer. What you can't yet do is cast 4th level spells unless forma scroll.

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast A ranger doesn't have Extra attack until level 5, doesn't have an archtype until level 3, and doesn't have spellcasting until level 2. You get features when you get them and don't have them until you do

NautArch

15:26

@KorvinStarmast ^

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch When I say "try to parse" I point out that, as I already did, I can see the no answer but the Specific of Scroll trumps general. @GReySage the feature includes spell slots, and spells known. Casting from within. This is an edge case.

NautArch

But I think at this point, @KorvinStarmast is clear in his answer. If we want to put up the competing potential problem, that's something we can do. He does not have to :)

Colin Gross

@KorvinStarmast I can't find that in my dmg. Spell scroll there only states than any creature that can read a written language can attempt to activate the scroll.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Problem here is I am looking at the roll20 text, and I have not the PHB number. It says "By the time you reach second level" not "after you reach second level" ... " you have learned to use the magical essence of nature to cast spells as a Druid does." As a hair splitting exercise, that says to me that you already can cast spells, but mechanically we wait for second level to award you your first spell slot.

@ColinGross I quoted the text in my answer.

@NautArch Your spell casting ability has always been Wisdom. You don't wait for second level for the spell casting ability to happen. (But you have to wait that long for a spell slot).

Colin Gross

@KorvinStarmast I don't think that's in the DMG. Might be in the PHB?

GreySage

15:33

@KorvinStarmast The spell casting ability is actually part of the spellcasting feature (along with spell slots and spells known). There is no mention of it prior to the 2nd level feature (outside of the quick build directions)

Colin Gross

NM found it

NautArch

@GreySage @KorvinStarmast except for the language "by 2nd level". But I think reading that as you have had it before but it wasn't really there isn't necessarily the best way to read it.

Colin Gross

pg 200 in my edition

NautArch

but it's loose enough that you could

Colin Gross

conflicts with the previous description on p.139

KorvinStarmast

15:35

@NautArch Hmm, I need to go back and read the PHB in order when I get back; as how it is presented there is to me authoritative. I'll check with you later.

ravery

@NautArch If you consider a Ranger to be a "half caster", he has 1 character level but 1/2 caster level.

so comes down to if you consider 1/2 caster levels to count for anything

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch As I noted to kviiri; its not just an edge case, it seems to me to be very unlikely to happen. Finding a scroll before hitting second level, based on magic item rarity/levels etc, would seem to be an very uncommon occurrence.

NautArch

@ravery I"m not sure what half/third/full caster has to do with it.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The more holistic point is, "in fiction" that you don't just wake up one day and "hey, I can cast spells" but instead that is part of your Ranger training from way back, and due (see ravery's point) half caster, your first slots arrive at level 2, not level 1. Default casting in the game is generally by using a spell slot, not an item.

ravery

@NautArch Ranger gains caster levels ever other character level (2,4,6, etc)

**every other

GreySage

15:39

@ravery It does create a weird case where you could be a Ranger 1/Paladin 1 and have spell slots like a 1st level character, but not hit either of those 2 class's spellcasting features

ravery

ie Ranger1 has a 1/2 level caste, ranger2 = 1 level caster

GreySage

But multiclassing is explicitly weird and known for messing everything up

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage Interesting point. (Fun with multi classing) :)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Technically it's possible. Treasure Hoard random table from Challenge 0-4 contains the possibility of spell scrolls.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch yes, it is possible, but choosing to try cast it from a scroll at level 1, with a 50-50 chance to fail, would seem a mistake when one could wait for level 2 and cast it from scroll with no chance to fail. So what situation makes it important to cast that spell? Dead party member?

NautArch

15:42

@KorvinStarmast Is that true, though? You're knowledge of D&D and it's history is much vaster than mine - but whether or not you are 'working towards' getting that stuff or have to train, or something else seems something that's very loose. But mechanically, you don't actually have it until you reach that level. There isn't an in-between state for mechanics.

@GreySage How would you have spell slots like 1st level character as a Ranger 1/Paladin 1? You haven't reached a point in either class that gives you slots.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I disagree. Specific trumps general, and only due to how the scroll mechanic is presented. Edge case, to be sure.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Where's the specific here?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The text I cited. In the Answer.

Carcer

the guy from yesterday ranting about his NWN server seems to be back

KorvinStarmast

Also the sorcerer example.

ravery

15:44

@NautArch if the spell is one that yu do not have levels for" then you need to make a check

DMG 200

Carcer

0

I don't really like any of the editions of D&D, but I like the idea. I'll try to make this short: I had a highly unusual introduction to rpgs. I played on a roleplaying server on nwn which didn't care if you knew the official lore or not (it didn't really try to stick with the official lore of a...

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The key here is There Is A Chance For Failure.

you could say in fiction: you are not quite fully grown as a caster yet for (whatever) reasons, so you might screw it up. See also knowing how to fly, but not getting safe for solo ... and then landing solo anyway when your IP is disabled. .

GreySage

@NautArch The multiclassing rules tell you to add half your ranger/paladin together to calculate spell slots, but then they also say "Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class", so maybe they don't apply until you hit level 2 in a class

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I know of two cases where that happened...

NautArch

@GreySage So we're saying 1/2 of 1 rounded down is 1 and not zero?

KorvinStarmast

15:49

@NautArch Why are we rounding?

ravery

@NautArch 1/2 + 1/2 rounded down is 1

NautArch

@ravery Even in the case when zero slots is a thing?

ravery

though I agree that the wording implies rounding before adding

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast multiclass spellcasting rules

@ravery it doesn't imply, it states.

GreySage

@NautArch I admit I may have overlooked that. In my defense I woke up an hour late and had to rush into the office, so my brain isn't working yet.

NautArch

15:52

And " Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class" does heavily suggest that some classes (or poitentially levels in that class) do not yet have the spellcasting feature.

@GreySage Heh :) it's a legit question. In most cases, it IS 1. But in the case where zero is a legitimate value, I think it's zero.

ravery

"half your leveis (raunded down) in the paladin and ranger classes,"

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch (Not sure where the be nice thing comes from?) I think I said that awkwardly about parsing the "by the time ...." did that come off as rude? If so, sorry.

David Coffron

Just want to say I'm loving the beta design for the most part (I know some people aren't, but I like the softer borders, makes the space feel bigger)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast No worries, it was coming off very strongly (to me) as "read the words, why can't you see it" when I had already said I had looked and didn't find it and asked for the specific point that I might have missed. TOne is hard when typing :)

ravery

@DavidCoffron it looks good, but I prefer the serif text, but that is a personal preference

David Coffron

15:58

@ravery Looks like that comes from the whole site's design (based on the meta)

> This site uses a Serif font but common elements across the network (headers, sidebars, buttons, tags, queues, etc) are now sans everywhere.

Sir Cinnamon

@ravery I think I agree with this as well

David Coffron

The goal overall is to normalize the styles with all the rest of the sites (for the most part at least)

(FWICT)

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Arrgh, I am so sorry. I was trying to go too fast. Need to slow down. :( Also, I am better off when I have the PHB in my hand, not using these digital tools. My bad, amigo.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast @NautArch I'm not sure whether half casters get spell lists or not before level 2. I'm gonna ask Crawford (once this is done) for some extra input but I expect an "It's intended to work X way" rather than a definitive answer. It is quite ambiguous

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron The class gets a spell list. The sorcerers have a spell list with 9th level spells, but that hardly gives them 9th level spells at level 1. ;) (That's my take)

David Coffron

16:04

@KorvinStarmast Yeah but the spell list isnt mentioned until the level 2 feature. I get both arguments and am having a tough time parsing.

Related: Semantic vs Syntactic placement?

xD

Oh... my joke doesn't work now

ravery

:P

I caught it

David Coffron

@ravery Worth it then lol

doppelgreener

@Carcer and now he is gone.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Scrolls provide for spells that You can't Normally use. The issue here is the scroll rules text, as I see it. It provides the opening. And "you can't normally cast level 1 spell" as ranger level 1 is true; you can't normally. The scroll is what is abnormal/special in this case. ya know, it's magic.

David Coffron

> By the time you reach 2nd level, you have learned to use the magical essence of nature to cast spells, much as a druid does. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the ranger spell list.

doppelgreener

16:06

That user's caused repeated trouble for us, so I was waiting for him to remake his account. I'm glad he did it so soon.

David Coffron

I think you may have a point. The rules don't say you gain access to the list at level 2, you gain access to spells from the pre-existing list

KorvinStarmast

"By the time you reach 2nd level, you have learned" Yeah, but I really had to split hairs on that, didn't I?

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Still going to ask Crawford just for as much info as possible

I would not argue with a GM who said no spell list until 2

(well I wouldn't argue with a GM anyway, but I would understand his position)

ravery

@DavidCoffron I see it coming down to "Are you a caster before you have slots?"

David Coffron

@ravery No, you aren't a spellcaster until you can cast a spell; it's "are you an owner of a class spell list before you have the class feature that calls it out"

GreySage

16:11

@DavidCoffron I can't see anywhere in the feature that says you gain the spell list. I personally would think you have the list as long as you have the corresponding class, even if you don't have the spellcasting feature yet. But that creates the situation where you have a spell list, but not a spellcasting ability yet.

David Coffron

@GreySage Right, but we already know that if you don't have a spellcasting ability it is just your proficiency bonus.

GreySage

Thinking of it in a different way, maybe you never own a spell list, you just use it. In that case I think a ranger could attempt to cast a scroll at level 1, using the "higher than normal level" rules

David Coffron

3

A: What is the spellcasting modifier of a spell cast from a magic item?

While the other answers thoroughly deal with the options you have for setting a fixed DC for the item, I will provide an answer to your question. What is the spellcasting ability modifier for a non-spellcaster character? The rules on this can be found in the DMG, in the Magic Items (Activating ...

TylerH

Is there an in-game/lore-friendly basis for why classes with a shared spellcasting ability (Charisma for Bards/Warlocks, for example) have different lists of spells available to them?

David Coffron

@TylerH I have my own head-canon, but nothing in the official books

Each class has its own source of magic. The abilities are just the closest thing to what measures up

Read the introduction to the classes and the first sentence of most Spellcasting features to get an idea

(Wisdom can mean awareness of the natural world or awareness of the divine)

> Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

I've always taken that for a Cleric to utilize the divine power, they have to be heavily attuned to the world around them

ravery

16:18

@DavidCoffron or even different ways of using the same magic. A Bard is performance based for example.

David Coffron

@ravery and a paladin uses an oath for "divine magic" (hence Charisma) while a cleric uses his/her devotion and understanding of the domain

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage This is the point where I try to not rely solely on a mechanics/on off switch approach. While we don't do AD&D 1e era "train for your new level" stuff anymore, the in fiction thing about classes is that they don't happen via an on/off switch. There are a part of the life continuum of the character.

@GreySage But that creates the situation where you have a spell list, but not a spellcasting ability yet Fair point, but I don't see that as an obstacle. I can see the turkey in the oven, but I don't get to eat it yet ..

NautArch

@TylerH The tool is different than the job

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage Later on I'll see if I can find the similar thing about wizards and notes and when they get new spells. Can't now, PHB is somewhere else.

TylerH

@DavidCoffron Personally I think that a Cleric's ability to cast divine magic comes from their alignment and devotion to their deity, rather than how in tune they are to the people or environment around them.

David Coffron

16:25

@TylerH You are right

> Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.

TylerH

A Druid, on the other hand, would have the ability to cast magic based on their incredibly close connection and attunement to nature/the world around them (based on how I see it)

David Coffron

What other spellcasting ability would reflect devotion to a deity?

TylerH

A Warlock could theoretically have a god as their 'otherworldly patron', no?

David Coffron

Q: Why are Clerics and Druids Wisdom-based?

Since early D&D, the cleric/druid/priest-analogue classes have been Wisdom-based spellcasters. Does anyone know why that is and/or what justification was given originally (if any)? There are plenty of explanations based on existing fluff that can be slotted in for this, but I'm interested in pa...

dungeons-and-dragons cleric druid game-design ability-scores

ravery

@DavidCoffron Paladin used to, but that has been change to devotion to a cause in 5e

David Coffron

16:26

@ravery Were they always Charisma casters?

GreySage

@TylerH Yes, but their connection is different than a Clerics. a Cleric worships, a Warlock makes a deal.

ravery

@DavidCoffron I don't remember, but the idea was like a Knighted cleric

David Coffron

@TylerH Yes, but the cleric is receiving a "reward" for their patronage. A warlock signs a pact

NautArch

@NathanSantee There are quite a few 5e folks in chat now. Based on some of your questions and responses, it may benefit you to come and talk.

David Coffron

@NautArch I don't think those pings work if he hasn't been in this room before

NautArch

16:28

@DavidCoffron he's been in

David Coffron

@NautArch Oh ok

GreySage

@DavidCoffron 3.5 Paladins used wisdom

V2Blast

for 5e paladins:
"Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your paladin spells, since their power derives from the strength of your convictions."

David Coffron

@GreySage So I guess Wisdom is the go to for "devotion to a god" in D&D

(since that was 3.5e's source of power for paladins)

@TylerH Most of them make sense:

But you are right, clerics are in a weird spot.

Carcer

@doppelgreener well, he's less gone than he was last time, given the account still exists

David Coffron

16:35

@kviiri Yeah, but when we are told to read 5e in "plain english" what else can we do?

Carcer

based on the question this time around he's calmed down a bit though so that's good

ravery

@DavidCoffron I think Clerics got Wiz because religion is usually considered wisdom

David Coffron

@ravery Except religious knowledge is Intelligence (the skill)

It's weird

Yuuki

Also, getting a deity on your side does tend to show street smarts.

STREET SMARTS!

doppelgreener

@Carcer well, i mean... we've shown him the door rather than him storming out this time. and we've locked it behind him for a while.

(he is b&)

KorvinStarmast

16:38

@DavidCoffron How far back do you want to go, for "were there always charisma casters?" For sure before AD&D 2e, no. (I need to check my 2e books, but I don't think that changed ... )

Yuuki

This feels like an X/Y discussion where Y is basically "what do stats mean?".

To which the answer is "This is D&D, where the mechanics are made-up and the non-combat doesn't matter".

ravery

My grandson is awake. Time to go give birthday presents. See you all later

GreySage

@ravery Later, old person

@DavidCoffron Knowing about Religion is Int (you study it). Being a vessel for spiritual power is Wis.

David Coffron

@GreySage Yeah, that's how I parse it, but Wisdom doesn't include that in the ability description which is annoying

TylerH

@Yuuki the discussion was prompted by my question about whether there was an in-game/in-lore reason for certain classes with a shared spellcasting ability having different lists of spells available to them, but aside from that, D&D is not just about combat, despite how fun a play on the Who's Line motto is :-)

@DavidCoffron Indeed, my Cleric is not proficient in Religion checks because it is an Intelligence check, and I always feel a bit chagrined when I have to make such a check

GreySage

16:44

@DavidCoffron Wis does include perceptiveness and intuition, maybe Clerics need to be perceptive to know the will of their god?

TylerH

@GreySage Certainly makes sense since gods rarely speak directly to their followers

GreySage

@TylerH Maybe they do, and only clerics pay enough attention to hear it

Carcer

@doppelgreener oh. That surprises me a bit, to be honest.

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage I see you dove right in, nice job on setting up your answer.

TylerH

@GreySage That works hand-in-hand with the fact that Wisdom is the skillful application of your Intelligence

GreySage

16:47

@KorvinStarmast It's basically the same as your answer, but I wanted to emphasize/include how the Ranger doesn't have a spellcasting ability score yet.

On that note, do normal spellcasters add their prof bonus to casting scrolls?

I thought it was just the ability mod

doppelgreener

@Carcer he's got a really long track record here, but last time he was around we didn't appreciate how serious it was or that this would just be a long-term pattern.

NautArch

@GreySage adding this to the related links. not sure if it changes your thoughts.

doppelgreener

they've also been banned on Giant ITP, RPG.Net, and at least two other RPG forums.

NautArch

15

Q: What creatures can cast spells from spell scrolls?

The DMG outlines what it means to be a spellcaster: If the prerequisite is to be a spellcaster, a creature qualifies if it can cast at least one spell using its traits or features, not using a magic item or the like. The requirement to cast spells from scrolls as referenced by the Spell Scr...

dnd-5e spells magic-items monsters

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage While I don't agree with that detail, I understand the reasoning you used to get there and the link is a nice piece of support. All in all, good answer.

@doppelgreener Was this Nathan, or the NWN person?

doppelgreener

16:49

@KorvinStarmast Blackwolf aka xBlackwolfx aka lXBlackwolfXl

KorvinStarmast

Ah, thanks. Sorry, I was missing a piece of context.

doppelgreener

(this is all publicly available information we discovered last year after he complained about other RPG forums and dropped names)

Carcer

@doppelgreener I was giving the benefit of the doubt and presuming that he must have done something that I wasn't able to see. When we saw him yesterday nobody in the chat as far as I remember suggested he was known to have a history

that makes a lot more sense though

doppelgreener

@Carcer Yeah, the rest of the history is late last year

Carcer

fair enough!

Yuuki

16:52

Look, here's the real reason why Clerics use Wisdom. Wisdom -> Whiz Dome -> Dome -> Bald -> Dwarves -> Dwarven cleric.

Done.

doppelgreener

@Yuuki i'm convinced

David Coffron

@doppelgreener Did you ever find a good way to do this (trying to reformat a table for this question):

1

Q: How can I have a label span across a set of columns in Stack Exchange's MathJax?

I'm from another Stack Exchange site where we've just had MathJax enabled. There's a table in this answer that looks like this (actual decimals just typed in for the example), which looks rather pretty, except the rows and columns are unlabelled: \begin{array}{r|lll} & 0 & 1 & 2 \\ \hline 0 & ...

arrays mathjax

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron no need for a table in this case—see my edit :)

@DavidCoffron But yes, the answer there is perfect

David Coffron

@doppelgreener Oh. That makes sense

@doppelgreener I tried using that method, but it didn't work well. Couldn't get the heading centered

kviiri

19:13

@DavidCoffron The catch is that DnD rules debates aren't exactly worth it most of the time anyway

They're fun for sport though

GreySage

@kviiri I wonder if you could make it an actual sport, like debate, give points for references etc.

NautArch

19:25

@GreySage isn't that kind of what we're doing here?

GreySage

@NautArch Yeah, but you could televise (or stream) it. It'd be at least as interesting as e-sports or golf.

kviiri

20:08

@GreySage It's like debate club

Erin B

20:48

so, I'm looking at https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/77252/does-taking-more-damage-than-you-have-hp-remaining-result-in-a-death-saving-thro

What am I not understanding about 5e death mechanics? I'm a pathfinder/ 3.5 player and if you take 60 points of damage as a 40 hp character, you're usually dead, regardless

GreySage

@ErinB Outside of massive damage (enough damage left over to equal your max), you don't die from damage. There is no -10 or -con rule

Erin B

but if it's max based, and not current hp based, why does that answer make sense?

GreySage

Once you drop to 0 you start rolling death saves. 3 failures and you die. Taking damage is an extra failure, a crit is 2.

Erin B

do you take extra death saves if you take more hp damage, or go far enough negative?

because for death saves, wouldn't 1 hp be functionally the same as 100?

40 damage is enough to make anyone with 30 hp go down, so why does it matter if you're at 1hp or 30?

GreySage

@ErinB Which answer? You linked to a question. If you take hp damage while at 0, you get a failure. Outside of massive damage, 1hp is the same as 100 (if you're being hit for 100 and your max is >99).

Erin B

20:52

@GreySage sorry, the accepted answer

okay, so I don't really understand then

oh god i linked the wrong thread

sorry

12

Q: No more failing on a success

I'm playing with the idea of adding a new house-rule to my sandbox-style game. The rule is as follows: If you succeed on a saving throw against an effect, that effect cannot make you drop below 1 hp. I am hoping this will eliminate situations where an injured player rolls a 20 against a Drago...

dnd-5e house-rules saving-throw hit-points

that one^

"Being at 1 HP is more dangerous than being downed against big threats"

I don't understand that claim

GreySage

It's... certainly a claim

Erin B

Okay, so I'm not wrong in my confusion then, thanks!

GreySage

It has a few assumptions. 1) The monster can do damage equal to your max in 1 attack 2) The monster won't try to finish off an unconscious opponent 3) The PC won't do anything useful on their turn, is guess?

Carcer

@ErinB I imagine the logic goes that when you're down, you're a less interesting target. Things probably don't bother attacking you because you're no longer a threat and so you have a few rounds while you're making death saves

yeah, whereas if it's something very big that does high damage on a hit it's conceivable that they could hit your and do so much damage it causes instant death

Xirema

The claim isn't that a downed target is easier to kill than a target that's at 1 hp, the claim is that being downed makes you less likely to be a target in the first place.

Erin B

20:56

yeah, but you're not making death saves at 1hp

Xirema

I know that from a PC perspective, I don't usually finish off downed targets unless I know the enemy party has an active and uncontested healer in their ranks.

Erin B

Oh, so the idea is that the monster is more liable to continue attacking a downed person, then?

Carcer

no, the idea is that they're not likely to continue attacking a downed person

Xirema

@ErinB Less.

GreySage

Whether or not being at 1hp or downed is better depends on how the DM runs the monsters.

Erin B

20:58

yeah I guess my confusion stems from the fact that a monster should stop attacking a downed target no matter what

Carcer

"less likely"

not "should"

Erin B

but I guess a monster is more likely to coup de grace a target that just did a ton of damage

GreySage

@ErinB Smart monsters finish off their prey

Carcer

alternatively: smart monsters don't waste attacks on something that's no longer a threat while they're still being actively hurt

it works either way

Erin B

yeah that was my thought ^

Okay, that helps clarify things, thanks everyone

Xirema

21:00

Well, to give an example: in a recent session, I pissed off a Dwarven Nazi (long story) and he was pretty eager to specifically kill me. Now, he was also hitting like a truck with a really high hit modifier. So what happened was I was bouncing down to 0, taking an Extra Attack to instantly take 2 failures, and then getting healed by our Druid back up to 3-7 hitpoints.

This happened like 4 rounds in a row.

So let me ask you a question: did it make sense for the Dwarf to just keep hitting me?

Carcer

bad tactical decision on his part evidently

Xirema

Especially since they weren't leaving my vicinity, meaning the moment I popped back up, I could just launch into my attacks again.

Carcer

but it was probably in character

GreySage

@Carcer Well, moving to another target would have resulted in the same thing, except possibly not downing it.

Xirema

@Carcer I mean, after 4 rounds, he started trying to kill the druid.

Carcer

21:02

@Xirema that was smarter, but shouldn't have taken him four rounds to realise that

well that's not what I mean

it was to his detriment that it took him a while to realise his strategy was not working

Xirema

@Carcer Also, I really cheesed him off. My character is a Half-Orc (check) who spent most of the fight leading up to that moment taunting him over the fact that despite her own genetic makeup, she was better than him.

Carcer

well done

Xirema

(Not sure how well that argument holds up when he's able to repeatedly drop me to 0 hp, but as a strategy, if it keeps him from lodging that greataxe into the druid's skull, then it's a sound tactic, yeah?)

Carcer

well, clearly she was doing something better than he was, because she'd made some friends and at the end of the day he's dead and she's not, right?

taking credit for your friends' assistance is fine. They're your friends because you're great.

Xirema

Pretty much. The only reason I'm probably not going to face justice for the unprovoked murder of his party is because we saved the Dwarven city from a terrorist attack (which would have instigated an international conflict), and I personally saved the Chancellor from dying a gruesome "falling off a cliff" type death.

So "being a willing and able champion for better people" is definitely a good trait.

(Also the part where I technically didn't actually kill him or his friends, and it was our trigger-happy rogue who dealt the killing blow to most of them, whom I have no control over and whom I expect cannot physically be held accountable for anything she does)

(Legally or otherwise)

Carcer

21:19

dwarf nazis

Yuuki

Given the kinds of racial stereotypes that have been attributed to dwarves, a dwarf nazi seems a bit off-putting.

Xirema

Yyyyup. Dwarven Nationalists, obsessed with the purity of the Dwarven Race, who hate non-dwarves and keep calling for the extermination of non-dwarvens, but also keep insisting they're "a legitimate organization", who "just want a fair and open conversation about getting rid of impure races".

You know, the standard Fascism one-two punch.

Sir Cinnamon

@Xirema Sounds like a cathartic campaign

Mike Q

@Carcer There's no correct answer. It depends on the monster/NPC. And the GM.

Carcer

@MikeQ such was my point

Xirema

21:26

@SirCinnamon Well, they're not the primary antagonists right now. Just an ancillary villain we stumbled into because we were (wrongly) led to believe they were responsible for the aforementioned terrorist attack, and they attacked us before we could properly question them about what happened.

Sir Cinnamon

Personally, as a GM would never have an enemy coup de grace a player unless combat ended with them having an opportunity to do so

Carcer

my setting has elf snobs

specifically the Society for the Preservation of Elvish Language and Literature

Mike Q

@Carcer I wonder if that spells an acronym

Sir Cinnamon

@Carcer Are they all wizards?

Carcer

I am considering having them be upset about their own name because they didn't realise the acronym was a common word until they'd already committed

Sir Cinnamon

21:28

Elves for the Good of Our own

E.G.O.

Carcer

also: non-elf members who are just super into elves

Sir Cinnamon

Elves Vying for Immortal Literature

Elf weaboos?

Carcer

yeah

Mike Q

What about half elves?

And quarter elves?

Sir Cinnamon

Fake ears and all?

Carcer

21:30

this is getting more shadowrun than I intended

Yuuki

Dragons Opposing Nativism, Gerrymandering, and Loitering On Verifiably Egalitarian Restrooms (D. O. N. G. L. O. V. E. R.).

Carcer

that one's really kind of laboured

Mike Q

Yes, like the actor/comedian/musician. That's definitely what the acronym means.

Yuuki

@MikeQ I loved his appearance in Spider-Man.

Sir Cinnamon

Elves Generating Goodwill for Having Eternally Advanced Diction and Style

Yuuki

21:58

International Meeting Naming Of Those Supporting Halflings On Real Troubles or I. M. N. O. T. S. H. O. R. T.

Mike Q

Official Raid Conducting Society

Joel Harmon

23:00

Heuristically Using Murder As Natural Selection

In D&D parties, that is. Certainly not the kind of thing that could happen in the real world.

Ben

Ohh... That one's good...

Joel Harmon

Drow Reign Or War!

Ben

WAAAAARGH!! (O.R.C.S)

Joel Harmon

I liked Mike Q's better.

Happily and Obliviously Bordering Burgeoning Intellectual Theft

Ben

True. Mike's is more fun. haha

So... potential question brewing

But not sure if the initial concept is too broad/opinion based

Basically, the best way to deal with Love interests in game.

I have asked a question about moving on with the storyline in lieu of the love interest, but that's a different thing

user15026

23:18

Like in terms of people pushing for them, or how to use them effectively, or how to handle them when they happen?

Ben

The latter...est

Particularly in groups where the love interest affects only 2 players

It can affect play, especially when the rest of the group need to sit back and wait for it to pass

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