TRPG General Chat

Mike Q

00:00

@trogdor I'm guessing @BESW is referring to the game's very blunt attempts to cram philosophy in the player's face

trogdor

Oh

BESW

Oh, I'd be fine with blunt.

trogdor

So like the Witness but bad?

XD

Mike Q

@trogdor The Witness but uninspired and without a central gameplay mechanic

I suppose most of the puzzles involve "aiming stuff at other stuff", and the characters all have biblical names, and you frequently run into text logs where a bunch of academics discuss the meaning of life by quoting various philosophers

BESW

Much more traditional gameplay, much less thought about the themes and motifs.

trogdor

00:01

Lol

Wtf

BESW

I talked about it a bit here.

trogdor

So they made a really really bad game

BESW

The gameplay's okay.

Mike Q

@trogdor Nah, the game itself isn't bad. Just not as clever or well-designed as the Witness.

BESW

Well, except the last level. That's absolutely nightmarish from a basic design perspective.

Mike Q

00:05

Last level of which?

BESW

Talos.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ If you go to the original reason that Gygax chose Vancian magic, his reasons mirror yours. (I have an answer somewhere on this SE about that)

trogdor

@MikeQ still a pass then, I think the Witness ruined me on games that aren't as good XD

BESW

I think The Witness is maybe an unfair comparison? It's more like a platformer puzzle game with a philosophical premise.

Almost more Portal-y, but with also trying to Say Something.

Mike Q

@trogdor Ok, I see that @BESW and I have different thorns about Talos. I'm less concerned with its lack of completeness in its philosophy. I'm moreso concerned with how the philosophy seems forced - it doesn't match the theme well, and it's being spewed at the player by a boring GLaDOS wannabe

Whereas the Witness has really strong cohesion between its structure and theme. It's about perspective, and the puzzles all involve perspective in some way.

BESW

00:18

That's definitely part of my gripe.

Mike Q

However, since I can't fault all games for having a disconnect between intended theme and its mechanics, I can't say Talos it's bad, only that it's not as thought-out (?) as Witness.

BESW

The setting and puzzles are generic and only lazily connected with the themes of the story.

It kind of reminds me of the last third of Bioshock.

trogdor

Yeah that was a strange ending for the game to get

I think I mostly agree that it should have ended earlier, or at least changed that last part of the game somehow

Mike Q

I dunno. I try to hold games to individual standards, based on what is advertised (or what "seems like" the designer's goal). So I'd judge artsy puzzle games differently than a shmup that loosely uses political philosophy in its story.

BESW

I think Talos is trying to be artsy. [grin]

It feels a lot like an RPG heartbreaker that wants to offer a big paradigm shift in playstyle but is still using d20 System as the undercarriage.

trogdor

00:31

Lol

Sort of like that Stargate one?

BESW

Yeah.

Mike Q

I wonder if, maybe, the Talos principle took that puzzle where you make temporary clones of yourself, and used that as one of the central mechanics of the game, if it would be a better fit for its "life and death and purpose" theme

And also omit the philosophy textbooks about whether humankind is inherently good or evil, because they're otherwise out of place due to having no humans in the game. Really, just, drop the whole serpent/garden of eden/angels stuff.

trogdor

Did they actually make you make choices in the game or was that just stuff they threw in there?

Mike Q

@trogdor There are choices in the form of optional puzzles, which could lead to "sort of good" versus "sort of bad" endings, although the choices aren't inherently good or bad

trogdor

Sounds a little annoying honestly

Mike Q

00:39

The primary story is that godbot 1000, the King James version of GLaDOS, can't make up its mind, tells you to solve puzzles, then whines when you solve them because it will cause their simulated universe to end. So there's an optional puzzle before the final area that leads to an ending where you join him instead.

There is also a Sarcasic Satan AI that talks at you through terminals, and I think certain dialogue choices lead to other dialogue choices, and possibly a special Achievement

Either way, the story has very little to do with the puzzles and gameplay

trogdor

Yeah that sounds like it could have been a way better game

But just wasn't

I imagine I would be frustrated most by a lack of coherent theme that was serviced both by narrative and mechanics

Mike Q

Its attempt to ask a bunch of big philosophy questions (What is existence? What is purpose? Is humanity good or evil?), and then follow-up by dropping random computer terminals where you can read paragraphs of quotes from famous philosophers... it's very hamfisted, and it's what I thought @BESW meant about the college student and philosophy

trogdor

Especially since it sounds like the game was gunning for some philosophical stuff but not doing the best job

@MikeQ yeah I mean, that's what it sounds like to me

It sounds like the people who made the game just learned the basics of some philosophical doctrine and then tried to make a game carried by that

BESW

I do think that a variant of the Talos Principle's conceit (training programs through a series of lethal puzzles) would make for a great Great Ork Gods hack.

trogdor

That's definitely some kinda idea

XD

Mike Q

00:51

@trogdor It can also be compared to SOMA, which also deals with existence, the self, and death. Not really a puzzle game, but the player interacts with stuff (and eventually makes choices) that fit the theme very well.

Instead of a bunch of robots running around solving puzzles for some grand reason, it has robots (and other machines) that contain replicas of human consciousness. Except not all of them understand that.

trogdor

@MikeQ yeah I'm familiar with Soma actually

It did a surprisingly good job at it's theme for a scary jumpy game

I didn't play it because I have trouble,... Completing games like that, but I watched a playthrough of it

Miniman

This is making me think about Celeste again - does anyone here know it well enough to discuss it?

trogdor

I've only watched about an hour of gameplay

And I've been considering getting it but I have a bit to finish on Hollow Knight and also already got a couple other games for now too

Oh and that last part of Ori I should really try to finish at some point

Miniman

XD

trogdor

I'm not usually this bad at finishing games

I suppose technically I finished Hollow Knight but I didn't 100% it

Which I want to try to do

And Ori,... My one complaint about Ori is that I have had an issue at points figuring out what I'm supposed to do

But part of that is just me in regards to Metroid Vania games

Miniman

01:07

Essentially the question I have is: Celeste is a platformer, but its themes are to do with mental health issues, particularly depression. As far as I can tell, its treatment of thise issues is respectful, even representative - but as always, I'm not qualified to judge that, so I'd be interested to hear others' opinions.

trogdor

Huh

I didn't get that impression but I didn't see that far into the game so I couldn't say

Also not an expert on that anyway

Miniman

Neither, I suspect, are the opinions that I've found about it - I'm not confident that game reviewers are qualified to review gameplay, let alone something like this.

trogdor

Oh I agree there

I stopped using game reviews for any purpose years ago

They seem, at best, to just be people with oppinions

At worst they never gives review below 7 or so to big name company made games

Mike Q

From what I've seen, the game is about platforming and trigger-hair timed jumping, so it seems that its themes are delivered mostly through narrative

Also the art style becomes progressively trippy as you progress

Joel Harmon

03:05

I'm backlogging, so this may be handled already, but I'd say just start reading the novels in order; they aren't that long. If you must pick three, I'd probably go 1 for Dresden himself, 3 for Michael, and 5 for Nick. As I recall, the fey are all spread out in there well enough to make up for it. On the very minus side, I don't think that gets you into some of the other, very fascinating, characters.
Another option you have is Side Jobs and Brief Cases, the short story collections. They occur between the novels. Major spoilers, of course.

kviiri

06:33

@trogdor So true

And well, people are using their reviews so... well, dishonestly these days.

Or at very least unintentionally misleadingly.

An example from the games I play, Paradox's Stellaris has been going through major overhauls in the recent versions. People who feel the overhaul makes the game worse give negative reviews without even trying it out. Or vote down a DLC for changes done to the base game

BESW

In reviews (not critiques), I find the best quality is the ability to describe the material in ways which help me know if I'll like it, whether or not the reviewer does.

That's what made Ebert so great.

Most online "reviews" tend to actually be critiques, which are a completely different beast.

trogdor

@kviiri yeah obviously it varies, but most reviews I see, especially ones that try to let a number grade speak for them, seem like they have some bias or other or some other problem that just makes using them to pick a game a really bad idea

kviiri

@BESW That's a good summary, yeah

@trogdor Grade numbers or "one to five stars" have been struggling a lot recently because people can't really use them in a way that'd be consistently helpful

They're on their way out, IMO

BESW

06:49

Baedeker ranking should've died when Stella Gibbons savaged it in 1932.

> [...]it is only because I have in mind all those thousands of persons, not unlike myself, who work in the vulgar and meaningless bustle of offices, shops, and homes, and who are not always sure whether a sentence is Literature or whether it is just sheer flapdoodle, that I have adopted the method perfected by the late Herr Baedeker, and firmly marked what I consider the finer passages with one, two, or three stars. In such a manner did the good man deal with cathedrals, hotels and paintings by men of genius.

(Baedeker invented the star system of rating things for tourists.)

trogdor

@kviiri which is great, describe the game and I will be more likely to take your ideas about it seriously XD

Helwar

@kviiri I know what you mean. But there is also the feeling that you have X game that you like, then they change it, and the end result might be a good game, but it might not be the game you liked anymore. (Speaking about the DLC thing, as it happened to me more than once)

@BESW When I do watch a review or first impressions video, I value being given the facts: This game is this and this and this, and works like this and that. If the person wants to interject their opinions, great! As long as the facts are true. Opinions of people you follow and get to "know" are valuable too. I remember when TotalBiscuit tried puzzle games, and the more he hated the game the more I knew I would like it.

Carcer

07:11

not all games journalism still depends on a clunking ratings system

RPS for instance just describes games. If they happen to really like a game it might get a sticker that says recommended

but they never summarise it to a "score" or anything

kviiri

@Helwar Paradox does allow unrestricted access to old versions though

Helwar

@kviiri I don't know their case, I was generalizing :) Great for them to do that though!

kviiri

@Helwar It doesn't really stop people from complaining though

Helwar

Well I feel like we are entitled to complain when something we don't like happens

as long as it doesn't get out of hand

kviiri

People are really careless throwing around the "this is not the game I paid for" card when in reality they want "the game I paid for plus any updates except the ones I don't like"

Which I don't think most of those people could even afford x)

Helwar

07:17

Paradox games are a special beast

I have the base Crusader Kings 2 with i think, the first 2 dlc

i bought it long ago, and I'm not smart enouhg to play it

But I think it has now hundreds of DLC=

?

Steam says 276€ for all the DLC + 40 for the game

store.steampowered.com/app/203770/Crusader_Kings_II

soooo, yeah, I don't think I could afford that game either :P

kviiri

CK2 is one of the better designed Paradox games at least as far as DLC is considered

They've largely sticked to "patch contains the content, DLC unlocks it for the player". Although not exclusively, especially later on. It's a robust way to do things.

Helwar

@kviiri Yeah, it's the: I buy if I wanna play as this faction or with these options, but I can still play with you if I don't have it

kviiri

EU4 on the other hand is an ever-growing mess of complexity that's pretty much impossible to grasp anymore. Let alone consider which of the 16384 possible combinations of DLC are actually broken in unintuitive ways.

Helwar

I get that, like any other growing game

kviiri

Well, the early CK2 DLCs managed to isolate their changes much better.

Ideally, one would have to just visit each previous DLC and consider whether that one (or its absence) conflicts with the new one. Not every possible combination of previous DLCs...

Helwar

07:26

I mean, one of the games I always complain about is Warframe. I love / loved (undecided yet) that game to bits. I mean, it's the ony game ever where I have reached 2k hours played according to steam. No other game comes even close.

But man every time they change the game is for the worse (imo), and I had such a build up of angst that one day they broke another thing that I liked from the game, and I exploded and I now hate the game with all I have

kviiri

The worst offender of DLC design, though, is Hearts of Iron IV, which has abandoned dynamic game design in favor of static hand-scripted content.

It's like a next level complexity nightmare which is incredibly disappointing from a game I anticipated a lot from.

Helwar

and I thought installing the Sims and Spore was a nightmare

talking about expensive games, look at the DLC list of this

store.steampowered.com/app/311730/…

Carcer

what's warframe changed significantly?

the last time I played it was a real long time ago

Helwar

@Carcer How the "endgame" works

and every time they need to balance things, they balance down

Carcer

warframe has an endgame? I thought you just grind endlessly for garbage to build new weapons

kviiri

07:39

Like, one would expect that the player shouldn't care about the internal design of the game, but HoI 4 feels like watching a sculptor working on a fine piece of marble, but instead of using a chisel they have a sausage

And then I watch the sculptor flap the sausage against the marble, staining it with grease and feel like I should trust this guy to make a statue.

Helwar

Endgame: You used to have to find keys to the Tower. Each key opened the tower to a cell/party. Each tower had a droplist. If it was an endless mission you could stay there potentially forever.
Endgame now: You need to find a relic that drops what you want. Then you need to find void traces to empower that relic to get higher chances of it dropping the last items (that's where what you want is, always). Now you need to find a group and everyone brings their own relic or don't have any loot.

Also your relic opens and it's done. SO if you want you can open multiple ones in a mission, but still have to farm them independently and empower them

kviiri

Pieces of the sausage start falling off and the sculptor just continues despite it seeming less and less likely the sculpture ever gets done

So yeah, moral of the story: the player should care about the internal design of the games they play unless they're content playing it exactly the way it is forever.

Helwar

so your farming is exponential. Before you needed 1 key for 4 people to access the mission, and they could stay there "forever", let's suppose they did 4 rounds before it gets too difficult. 1 key = 4x4 = 16 chances of getting the item.
Now 1 relic, 1 chance.

Carcer

oh, the vault stuff

I forgot about that

Helwar

Also before you could stockpile on keys, have a few of each kind and when they launched a timed thing, you could go in and give it a try. Now everytime they launch anything you have to farm the relic and farm the traces, or pay.

Carcer

07:47

yeah that sounds a bit crapper. Oh well

luckily I fell out of that particular skinner box before I ever got compelled to pay for anything

kviiri

Have you fellows played Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup?

Carcer

oh yes, I quite like DCSS but I'm not very good at it

kviiri

It's my favorite dungeon crawly game and a masterpiece of game design, largely by virtue of actually having a clear design philosophy that they actively try to adhere to.

Carcer

there at least you can still download the older versions of the game to play if you like

Helwar

Also, their nerf-bat game is too strong. I realize you have to balance things. But if you find everyone is using X weapon, instead of just nerfing it to the floor, why don't you try to understand why they are doing that, and maybe nerf it a little, but balance up everything else a little too?

Mike Q

07:48

@Helwar There is an assumption (or epidemic, by certain opinions) in video game development, that good games must have extensive gameplay times, and thus extensive gameplay time ensures a good game

kviiri

@Carcer The last time someone said that to me it later turned out they had ascended with the orb three times more than I had. Which means, three times :>

Helwar

@MikeQ It's a f2p. They want you to pay up

Carcer

zero times

I have never made it to the very lower levels of the dungeon without being in wizard mode

Helwar

@kviiri nope, what's that?

kviiri

@Carcer Same here, although I've come close quite a few times

Carcer

07:49

@Helwar DCSS is a roguelike

kviiri

@Helwar It's a fiendishly hard but reasonably fair modern take on classical roguelikes.

Carcer

crawl.develz.org

so-called "stone soup" because it's open-source developed by many contributors, as in the classic fable

kviiri

You play an adventurer who must retrieve the Orb of Zot from the bottom of a dangerous dungeon filled with treasure and monsters. That's the entire plot, really. You try to survive against the monsters, build your character's skills and equipment and mosey off with the Orb.

Carcer

There is a rotating roster of gods as every new major version one or two get added or removed

Helwar

for a moment I thought you were talking about Realm of the Mad God

but no

Carcer

07:53

the devs are not afraid to significantly change core mechanics. Over the time I've been playing it I've seen it get a lot more streamlined

kviiri

It's like NetHack in the sense that the entire game is set in one big, branching dungeon, but unlike NetHack, Crawl does its best not to necessitate spoilers or "gotchas" as a form of system mastery. Eg. the game flat out tells you that kobold corpses are not edible, that moving while confused near lava can get you killed, etc.

@Carcer I don't think they've removed gods in a while now

Carcer

it has been a while since I looked at it actually

kviiri

They did remove that device god... Pakellas?

The races and classes see a lot more variation though.

Anyway, to reach the Orb you need to collect at least three runes - there are fifteen in total, and collecting more than three is therefore a nice bonus objective. Runes are hidden in the endings of many dungeon branches, and usually choosing which branch to head in is a major strategic decision

Helwar

just to finish the Warframe rant: People actually likes the relic system because "Now I can farm wherever I want, not in the tower", wich... yeah. It's a change of scenery. At the cost of my sanity...

kviiri

Not all branches are present in all games: for instance the Lair of the Beast (which is itself a branch) always contains a single poison themed branch (either the Spider Nest or the Snake Pits) and a single water-themed branch (the Swamp or the Shoals)

Helwar

07:57

@kviiri sound like I have to try this

kviiri

@Helwar It's an excellent game! As long as you're not expecting a deep story or anything :)

Helwar

@kviiri not all games need one. I enjoy fighting games, and roguelites as much as I enjoy RPGs and P&C adventures, just for different reasons

kviiri

08:09

@Helwar That's good :)

But for people who are looking for, say, an ADOM-like experience from their Roguelikes, Crawl isn't the way to go.

Helwar

ADOM?

i'm not very knowledgeable in roguelikes, i'm more used to rogue-LITES and those usually have a serviceable story and no much else

kviiri

ADOM is one of the big names, and one of the few closed source roguelikes

I mean, in the Western market

It's a rather Elder Scrolls -like roguelike. There's an overworld, plenty of places to visit, quests, non-combat skills like herbalism and survival. I was super addicted to it for over a year but ultimately it just felt too much like NetHack over again

It was out of active development for quite a long time until a few years ago

Helwar

Third time you mention NetHack

now I'm curious

:)

kviiri

Ok, NetHack is the classic. For most people I guess. It was a childhood defining game for me, and basically to really get it one needs to understand its history.

It began development in the 1980's and was popular among college and university students, typically played on a shared server. The game is an absolute pain to learn and basically assumes the player to know a lot of things about monster lore of DnD and other pop culture. Not knowing things gets one killed in unexpected ways.

Eat a kobold corpse? You die. Eat a cockatrice egg? You die. Try wielding a cockatrice corpse (a good idea otherwise!) without wearing gloves? You die. Remember to wear gloves the next time, but carry too much gear and trip when going downstairs? You die. NetHack is full of this stuff.

Helwar

It doesn't sound like it's a game I'd enjoy :S I totally see the appeal for other though

kviiri

08:21

The saying went "The Dev Team Thinks Of Everything". Relates to many other weird interactions too, not just killing the PC.

Carcer

like you can listen with a stethoscope to the bottom of the screen and hear the keyboard typing

IIRC

kviiri

You can try to dip a potion bottle in itself, and the game'd make a joke about Klein bottles :)

@Helwar The appeal, I believe, was trying to master the game together in a tight community of players. As in, play it with your friends at the campus, take notes, learn as you go, share your notes.

But yeah, NetHack is ridiculously obtuse.

Helwar

yeah and that's fun when you are into it, and at that point in time

kviiri

It has this magical feeling that you've fallen through a rabbit hole into a weird fantasy mish mash world where everything is possible, but that's... well, not enough to make it a good game in my opinion.

But anyway, NetHack was a hugely influential game in the roguelike design community.

And still is. Hence me using it as a reference point for other games - DCSS is relatively easy to explain to someone who knows NetHack by listing the NetHack conventions abandoned by Crawl.

Helwar

I feel like there is a lot of baggage there

:P

kviiri

08:31

Eeyup :>

ADOM is like NetHack in many respects and expanded towards a CRPG with the quests, the plotlines, the more exotic locales, the NPCs. Crawl, on the other hand, is a very "gameplay first" experience.

Not to the point of detracting from the flavor - but when gameplay demands it, the lore yields to make way. They don't feel the need to go to great lengths to justify certain gameplay conventions story-wise.

And don't get me started on *bands!

(please get me started after lunch)

trogdor

08:51

lol

kviiri

I wrote an article on the history of roguelikes for a Finnish computer culture magazine

I love this stuff x)

But now for lunch

Helwar

09:36

@kviiri It's not after lunch, but... /me turns the key and starts the @kviiri start up button on *bands

kviiri

@Helwar Ooookayy so

NetHack wasn't the only influential roguelike of its generation. Another one, Angband, made itself a dedicated fan base too.

Angband's gameplay is a lot more straightforward than NetHack's: basically you delve a deep dungeon, kill monsters and collect loot until you're strong enough to beat Sauron (who resides on Level 99) and after him, Morgoth (who is on Level 100). So you're going to work your way up from killing kobolds and worms to offing deities.

Angband doesn't have the depth of funny but pointless features of NetHack.

Helwar

@kviiri I know that name, Angband

kviiri

The gameplay heavily revolves around the player balancing the risks of exploration with the potential rewards. The levels aren't persistent, so you could theoretically keep lurking in dungeon level 1 for weeks of real world time to level up safely. Most of us don't, and get killed instead :)

It's a game of infinite resources - shops never (permanently) run out of food, the dungeon never runs out of loot to loot or monsters to kill. As a consequence, Angband tends to be a grindier game than other roguelikes.

Carcer

09:53

(as you might guess from the fact you fight Sauron and Morgoth, Angband is a big LOTR reference - the name is taken from Melkor's fortress lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Angband

kviiri

Yep! :)

Helwar

I knew that! :)

kviiri

Angband takes a lot of content from Tolkien mythos - one of the first unique monsters you can meet is Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog. Or his "brother" Fang.

The thing that makes Angband really notable is that, through a mechanism I don't really know, it was apparently easy enough to modify to spawn hundreds of forks. Many of them are content expansions, eg. ZAngband which incorporates an overworld map, rudimentary quests and characters from Roger Zelazny's works. Or (old) ToME which incorporated places from Middle Earth, religion system and such.

Anyway, most of them retain the basic grindiness of the original, which is a bit of a shame x)

Carcer

googling suggests that a chap named Ben Harrison did a very good job cleaning up the source code and making at all readable and friendly, which would explain why it was a popular choice for modding

Helwar

@Carcer I need a magic wand that makes all code nice and tidy

kviiri

10:04

@Carcer Software engineering is a powerful thing!

Helwar

just to be sure I'm not confusing genres

these games you mention

are the kind of games where everything moves/acts when you move/act?

kviiri

Yes, they're all turn-based

You can take your time thinking :)

Helwar

Ok I played 3 or 4 games of this kind, but I guess they where the kiddie versions: Chocobo Mystery Dungeon, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (why are both Mystery Dungeon?), and 2 of whom I dont remember the names, one was a cutsy indie game with 3D models, the other might have been sword of the stars?

It was that genre, but scifi, and all pixely

kviiri

Yeah, roguelikes are a popular thing in Japan where they have a lot of commercial success too

Carcer

sword of the stars is strategy, innit?

Helwar

10:16

might be another name then

oh no

Sword of the stars: The Pit

apparenty the subtitle is important

store.steampowered.com/app/233700/Sword_of_the_Stars_The_Pit

Carcer

ah, okay

yes that does ring a bell now

Helwar

didn't know there were 4X games before the rogue-like :P

kviiri

Now that you mentioned it, the name does ring a bell

Helwar

10:31

i'm more of a Roguelite kind of gamer... gimme Binding of Isaac, Risk of Rain, or Enter the Gungeon, and I'm happy :P

kviiri

Risk of Rain is great fun!

And I've heard only good things about Gungeon and Isaac too

But anyways, try out DCSS if you're even slightly curious. It's a masterpiece

I'm always eager to talk about it :)

Carcer

is Ork Jesus still a workable build?

Helwar

@kviiri I opened a tab but i'm at work so playing is a big no no

(I shouldn't chat either, but I need to distract myself from the code every now and then or i'd BSOD my brain)

kviiri

@Carcer Yeah, although you can't start worshipping Beogh anymore. However, converting to Beogh is much easier than it used to be (whenever you meet an Orc Priest as a Hill Orc, they'll offer you a chance to convert)

I'm a bit sad they removed Priest as a starting background, because Zin is one of my favorite gods. (Yeah I'm not a powergamer hehe)

Carcer

think the most successful run I ever had was a deep elf conjurer following Vehumet

from the changelog now it looks like player ghosts no longer appear in the normal dungeon?

kviiri

10:45

@Carcer Yep, they're always behind a runed door

I have mixed feelings about this

Carcer

to be honest I like it

I always found getting stomped by my own ghost to be very frustrating

kviiri

I think my rational mind likes it :)

@Carcer I have had three runs that stood out. Minotaur FIghter of Okawaru, who had really good gear but also some really nasty mutations. Died in a Ziggurat because of carelessness and frustration with the mutations. (stupid of me, because he had a real chance of winning the game)

Then there was a Hill orc Abyss Knight, the only character I actually grabbed the orb with (I've reached the Orb many times but usually left it there for a while). Got killed during the Orb run (I didn't realize how many enemies would spawn)

Carcer

oh yeah the enemy spawning is excessive

kviiri

And finally, this one doesn't REALLY count, but a Lava Orc Fighter, also Okawaru IIRC. Lava Orc was never released and was a bit OP.

Died in the orb chamber because of a bit of hubris

Carcer

I don't remember what killed my conjurer. Was quite a long time ago

Helwar

10:50

@kviiri You know they are making Risk of Rain 2? It's 3rd person though... I don't know If I like the change... but let's wait and see...

Carcer

I should have another go at it, it's been too long

kviiri

Also I've got Deep Elf Earth Elementalists to Zot:5 too, they're my favorite magic-heavy build.

@Helwar I've heard rumors, but I've got enough to play as it is so I haven't really bothered to investigate

Nowadays one of my favorite starts is Demonspwan Berserker because it combines the raw early game power of the Berserker with the slowly accumulating Demonspawn perks.

Joel Harmon

11:42

@Helwar I'd say that's how you get the end game gear. The end game content is the daily Sorties or the various boss fights.

And on the one hand, it is pretty grind-y. On the other, it's targeted enough that it doesn't bother me much.

Anaphory

@kviiri Should I try to play it without spoilers first?

NautArch

12:56

Is this question on asking for homebrew ideas still not ready for the stack? I'm unsure as to whether asking the stack to provide homebrew ideas is okay or not vs providing the homebrew solution and asking if it's balanced.

Helwar

@JoelHarmon That's a joke, I can do sorties and bosses with ease. Raids is another issue, I haven't even tried them as I don't like the idea.

Carcer

@NautArch it's been rewritten so it no longer includes the suggested homebrew mechanic and is now just asking if there's a way to do something like it in the rules as written

nope it has not

I should learn to read

NautArch

@Carcer heh, yeah. I almost want to say there is an answer: delayed blast fireball. But making that an equivalent to attacks isn't there.

Carcer

I think it probably does need the homebrew bit removing too

Helwar

I read the question now... he's trying to simulate something from outside D&D in D&D... I wish him luck

NautArch

13:12

although screamline has a great answer

kviiri

@Anaphory Not really. The game makes a design point against spoilers, so most of the "spoiled" content is actually revealed in the game. Eg. monster spell lists can be found by e'x'amining the monster.

Carcer

@NautArch I think my answer is good too, but I admit I'm biased

kviiri

So spoilers are pretty much the same information in a better format

Helwar

@Carcer Is this a word? "manoeuvre"

Carcer

yes

Helwar

13:18

isn't it maneuver ?

Carcer

it's the British English spelling of "maneuver"

Helwar

Honest question eh! not sarcasm

well, it sounds French

Carcer

don't worry, I took it honestly

British English spelling owes a lot to french

kviiri

@Helwar Yes, British English does :P

Carcer

but I can assure you that it is the correct spelling in BrE

Helwar

13:20

I trust you :)

Carcer

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/manoeuvre no, I must argue more

Helwar

Let me tell you one thing: I'm never gonna write, nor pronounce that word

Don't want to make an ass of myself :P

Carcer

it's pronounced the same way.

Helwar

yeah, I figured

it's still on my banned words list

it's there feeling cozy with "Lewis"

I love how brittish people pronounce that name. I'm incapable of articulating it

Colin Gross

"diabeetus" still irritates me slightly.

NautArch

13:35

@ColinGross i get irritated by Stupit.

Colin Gross

Is that a pronunciation of "stupid" ?

or "stop it" ?

NautArch

@ColinGross stupid

@Carcer have an updoot

Colin Gross

@NautArch I concur. That is stupid.

NautArch

@ColinGross *stupit

Helwar

Blood sounds "Blod", instead of like the "oo" in Goose...

kviiri

13:42

Choose to loose, but chose to lose :)

Helwar

I might not know enough english to get all the differences

I say the 2 first words with the same sound

I know how to do the third

and the fourth i pronounce like the 2 first

kviiri

They are the same. The joke is that removing an o from each results in two completely different sounds

For the latter two, I mean

Anaphory

@kviiri It even has quite a decent tutorial, I thought.

Carcer

I was going to ask if english was not your first language, but I was worried I might cause offense if you were american

kviiri

@Anaphory Neat! (I never played it though :P)

Helwar

13:48

@Carcer I'm spanish, english is my 3rd language.

NautArch

@Carcer English isn't necessarily their first language even if they are american.

kviiri

@Anaphory If you want a bit of a change, pick "dungeon sprint" from the menu and choose Arena of Blood. It's a weird mini-roguelike of its own where every attack you make kills every enemy adjacent to you, but the enemies are fiendishly dangerous to match.

Anaphory

@Helwar Blood is a strange word. It's like it has gone through the loop twice

kviiri

Also, you'll be worshiping Makhleb (or dying VERY fast) so you heal on kills :)

Colin Gross

@NautArch I used to think American English was worse than British. Then I got sick of typing centre and colour.

I truly pity anyone who has to learn English. It seems like the worst language to try to learn to speak.

Anaphory

13:51

@kviiri I will not do any of that before next Wednesday, when my Marie Curie grant application is done, for good or ill.

kviiri

American English being somehow worse or less correct than British English is a rather annoying meme

@Anaphory Good luck! :)

Carcer

it is definitely not the worst language, but it is amongst the most annoying widespread languages at least

Anaphory

@ColinGross Speaking is actually okay. I discussed with a colleague recently whether there is any other European language that would have made a better world language.

Colin Gross

Any Esperanto purists in here?

Helwar

@kviiri It's just different. ANd not that much. Only a few words and then some jargon. Like british people saying "telly" or "tube", or things like "Customize / Customise"...

Anaphory

13:52

We concluded that for speaking, English is bad because of the “th”es, which is quite a strange sound, but the grammar is actually quite nice.

The horrible thing about English is just its writing system, which has fossilized before the language underwent extreme shifts in pronounciation and standardization.

kviiri

English does have its upsides. We have to learn Swedish in school (and I had voluntary French) and the gender concord system in each is an absolute pain. English doesn't have it

Helwar

what irks me is when people says that know spanish, and they talk in a southamerican dialect. We understand each other, so maybe technically its the same language, but we really don't use the same grammar, nor the same words, nor the same pronunciation for anything

Colin Gross

@Helwar The s/z switches aren't particularly bad. It's the o/ou and er/re that make typing it rough.

Helwar

and it's not that southamerican spanish is worse! (don't get me wrong)

it's just not MY version of the language, that's all

@kviiri Gender concord?

kviiri

The indefinite singular article of Swedish words can be en or ett, with there being three genders for en words and two for ett words

Rubiksmoose

13:55

@kviiri And I thought german/spanish was bad with gendered words...

Colin Gross

@Helwar I used to live with a guy who's entire job was talking to different Spanish speakers because he knew all the dialects and idioms from each subset of Spanish. I think his work day spanned 5 time zones or something as well.

Helwar

omg how many genders? xD Why five? Male, Female, Undetermined, Both, Pineapple?

Anaphory

@kviiri I didn't know Swedish hat evolved to distinguish 5 noun classes, cool!

kviiri

@Helwar They're not associated with any biological or social genders :P

Carcer

@Helwar one of my colleagues is Argentinian and she describes Argentine Spanish as basically being the bastard offspring of Spanish and Italian

Rubiksmoose

13:56

I'm learning Japanese and despite it being very very different from English (though reading/pronouncing it, Kanji aside, is super easy) I thank my stars every time that there are no gendered words in it.

Anaphory

@Rubiksmoose “Kanji aside” Hah!

Helwar

@Carcer It's like spanish spoken with an italian accent... Mostly. Not exactly. But yeah, I can get behind that description! :)

Rubiksmoose

@Anaphory Yeah kind of meaningless since without Kanji you cannot function with written Japanese at any kind of real level lol

kviiri

@Helwar The en or ett determines adjective concord. Eg. liten means "small", but only for en words. For ett words, it's instead litet.

Helwar

@Rubiksmoose I feel like pronouncing Japanese is harder on native english speakers, because their vocals are the same as ours (spanish speakers)

Carcer

13:58

pronouncing japanese is easy because it's got a very limited phoneme set compared to English, but I understand that this can make understanding spoken japanese gets very difficult because that means they throw out sounds a lot faster than you'd normally speak in English

kviiri

The subdivisions determine the declension (is that the correct word?) of the word: the indefinite singular, the definite singular, the indefinite plural and the definite plural

Rubiksmoose

@Helwar There are a few sounds that have been a bit hard in my experience, but then again I had already taken Spanish so maybe that helped.

kviiri

An additional difficulty is that my mother tongue Finnish doesn't really have the sense of indefinite and definite words, explicitly at least.

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