TRPG General Chat

Ben

01:02

So... Sister's work got hacked. Password on their Accounting software changed. That threw up a red flag. Apparently the PC itself was doing all sorts of weird stuff for about a month (closing, randomly shutting down, Windows Explorer restarting.

Went in and basically formatted the PC, re-installed windows, and told them to change all their passwords

trogdor

Sheesh

Sounds scary and annoying

Ben

Yeah, definitely. I went over and did that all as a "favour", but I'll be sending them an invoice for some Firewall hardware... I daresay they'll definitely be going for it after that haha

trogdor

I would

Isn't a firewall generally software though?

Ben

01:24

@trogdor Well, yeah. Lol. But this is technically considered firewall "hardware" as it is a dedicated piece of hardware that runs and manages the firewall and network security.

Ben

01:34

And it runs in place of your modem, so it's first-line of defense for your entire network. There's no chance of any malicious software getting into you network and hiding in a corner - it has to get past the firewall first.

trogdor

Ah ok

Makes sense

The Oracle

02:17

1

Q: 2018 200-word RPGs: user testimonials

The 2018 200-word RPG contest results have arrived. You can see the finalists here or all 2018 entries. If you're not aware, the 200-word RPG contest is a free, public competition in which numerous stackizens have participated over the years. Here we collect stackizen reflections/reviews/impr...

1

Q: Established homebrew specifics: is asking on topic?

Is it on topic to ask about the specifics of established homebrew content (such as the house rules used by Matt Mercer on Critical Role) or where such things can be found?

discussion on-topic

Joel Harmon

03:14

@nitsua60 I'd say the Letters to the Home Front game takes on a very weird twist if you read it literally as "losing moral" rather than the presumable intent, "losing morale".

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon Thank you! I'd meant to put a note about s/moral/morale, and you reminded me =)

Joel Harmon

I coudn't not read it that way, so it lost a bit of impact (for me).

nitsua60

Understandable.

Joel Harmon

In my mind, it turned into a setup where a pair of rogues were inflicting morality on each other, and that could be a good game, too.

Ben

trogdor

03:55

That definitely makes Aladin look like a jerk

XD

ravery

04:07

Have I misstated this answer: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/129590/42354. or are they nitpicking because it is not the answer he wanted.

Ben

04:19

@ravery Yeah, you've misstated the rule. The Whirlwind requires an attack action, as do any other POW attacks. (As the other answer points out). So, while you are correct in saying no it can't be used like that, it's because you can use one or the other, because both require an attack action to use.

Not because a POW grants any additional bonuses, or anything like that. They just simply can't be used together.

ravery

@Ben -- noted, though I think the phrase I quoted is integral to that...ie if level 5 with extra attacks, you still could not include POW with WWA.

though you could do a POW twice

Ben

@ravery If at an time you have the ability to use 2 attack actions, you can use both in the same turn

ravery

not sure about that. WWA forbids extra attacks from abilities. It uses your entire attack. but gives an attack on every creature in range.

Ben

@ravery Attack actions are different to attacks.

I can't quote/link the rule right now, but as an example, some monsters get multiple attacks as part of one attack action.

ravery

"When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks " and "you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."... thus if you use WWA, you only get the one "attack".

Ben

04:30

Here's a rpg.se question about it

Yes, some feats let you attack more than once per attack action.

WWA states that as part of that attack action, you forfeit those extra attacks

ravery

yes, and natrural multiattack. but WWA specifically states that it uses all of your attacks. or Uses your full Attack Action, if that is worded better

Ben

That's the important distinction. An attack action is different to an attack. The rule states that you give up additional attacks, not additional attack actions

So say I had a natural multi attack. If I used WWA, I would not be able to use my second attack, granted by the multi attack. But, if I had 2 Attack Actions, I could use WWA, then in my next Attack Action, I could use my multi attack, or even another WWA (if the feat would allow).

ravery

I may be missing something because of ver differences, but as I understand: you have one Attack Action, which may include multiple attacks. If this is the case, the wording of WWA says it can not be used with any other attack

Ben

@ravery Yes. The way that wording usually works is that it only states what it refers to. Since it has no effect on multiple attack actions, it doesn't mention it.

ravery

though I guess there are some feats that allow an attack as a Bonus Action

Ben

04:39

The way WWA works in a turn:

Attack Action 1: WWA. Any other feats and additional attacks are negated.
Attack Action 2: (Multi Attack) Attack; Attack.

Miniman

@ravery ...Pathfinder doesn't even have bonus actions.

ravery

@Ben ok, got that .. but seems to support my answer, as the question was if he could use a POW Strike as the WWA attack...

OP doesn't seem to like that he's being told no

but anyway I'm more familiar with D&D than pathfinder

Ben

04:56

To be more specific:

Attack Action 1: WWA
Attack Action 2: POW

That's how the rule is interpreted.

As for "not liking being told no", well no one really does, especially when they come up with a cool idea, only for it to be shot down. But that doesn't mean it's going to affect how the vote on your answer, especially with such an experienced user as the OP.

ravery

@Ben yes, but the OP wants to use POW as the melee attack used in WWA, since it states "make a melee attack", not "attack with a melee weapon" so seems that the part I quoted is the relevant restriction...

Ben

@ravery those two are the same thing, more or less; but that has nothing to do with this problem. It doesn't matter what the requirements of the POW attack are, the fact is that both WWA, and POW each require an attack action.

ravery

yes, I know it didn't effect the vote (I've deleted my answer).

@Ben along those lines, could POW be applied to multiattack or to only one of the attacks?

Ben

05:11

That's a whole other question haha.

ravery

yes, I know :)

Ben

It depends on what you're trying to do, but basically, if your POW action is only an attack, then yes, you would be able to get another attack in, if your feats/abilities allow.

Pending some clarification stating otherwise

ravery

One of the reasons I never really got into 3.5e or pathfinder. The rules were growing exponentially, and opened up a lot of rules lawyering.

Ben

@ravery They are huge games, yeah. Lol

doppelgreener

10:11

@nitsua60 glad you approve :D

Ghiojo

10:29

I exist

Sdjz

@Ghiojo I am unconvinced. How do you prove this?

Rubiksmoose

@Ghiojo Yeah I don't buy it. Clearly an illusion.

Ghiojo

you shall never know~

But yah, how's it going y'all?

Rubiksmoose

goo.gl/images/MsLKLY

@nitsua60 :) I'm happy to do my part in keeping/making this place one of the more reliably pleasant places on the internet.

Ghiojo

Lol

doppelgreener

10:38

@Rubiksmoose i love how korg runs in only after loki's already vanished

sticking it to the ghost though

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener I love that scene so much in basically every way. And, really the entire movie. But Korg is an absolute gem. Fun fact: he is voiced by the movie's director, Taika Waititi.

@doppelgreener The comedic timing is just so darned good lol

@Ghiojo It is going well. How about yourself?

Ghiojo

@Rubiksmoose Tis going good! I just asked a question and i'm sitting here thinking If I should continue an improv adventure I have been doing for my little brother

Rubiksmoose

@Ghiojo It is a good question btw (hopefully my comment on it makes sense, but do let me know if it doesn't). And that sounds like fun! What system?

Ghiojo

D&D 5e, I don't really play other systems, I was planning on checking pathfinder but... Looks at the 100000000 skills

Rubiksmoose

10:53

@Ghiojo Question about your comment: do you mean to say that you would phrase a trigger to say "before X attacks me" or something like that?

Ghiojo

Well yeah, as it says in Xanathar's guide "Unless the Trigger is specified to interrupt an action, it's considered that it happends after it"

Sdjz

@Rubiksmoose The answer might not be immediately obvious from the linked question, I think. The way I see it it depends on the trigger. If you specify "when the enemy gets close enough I attack" you can actually attack as soon as they get close and before they get a chance to attack you

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Same, yes, completely. Hearing the NZ accents was like being home again as well. (Not that NZ was my home, but it's the second best thing.)

Rubiksmoose

@Sdjz Sure, but the rule always applies that the reaction comes after the trigger. Readied action timing is one of the more irritatingly vague aspects of the rules because there is just enough vagueness that allows for so much over-parsing of the mechanic.

Ghiojo

In the main campaign i'm doing for my friends, it's meant to be a lot more about thinking than fighting, hence why I wanted to make sure enemies could ready actions aswell, I've already worked with formations aswell, it's been a hell for them to deal with well-placed cavalry.

Sdjz

11:01

@Rubiksmoose Hm I'm not sure but are you saying that you can't actually do what I described? Specifying the trigger for enemy movement so you attack after the movement but before the attack? I do agree the reaction rules are vague but I think in this case it may work? Alternatively, this discussion may prove that it's actually worth a separate question for this specific case?

doppelgreener

@Ghiojo i resemble that remark. pathfinder character creation is super intimidating.

Sdjz

@Ghiojo As a side note, specifying "I attack before the enemy does" is not really valid, I think

Ghiojo

Well, "I try to" is

Rubiksmoose

@Sdjz Yeah the movement trigger would be a valid ready trigger. Of course it wouldn't protect against ranged attacks or spells, but that would probably clear from the enemy you are preparing against.

Ghiojo

Then i'd just make them roll iniciative

Rubiksmoose

11:03

@Sdjz Definitely not when phrased like that.

Ghiojo

I meant it very oversimplified though, I meant something along the lines of "When I see the enemy opening to swing at me, I will try to attack"

Sdjz

@Ghiojo Oh so we were actually talking about a situation before combat? Because that's a whole different issue

Rubiksmoose

@Sdjz Indeed. Super duper RAW you can't technically Ready outside of combat IIRC.

Sdjz

@Rubiksmoose We do have a question on this: Can players “Ready” outside of combat?

Rubiksmoose

16

Q: Can players "Ready" outside of combat?

Can players in 5e ready an action before combat begins? If so, does this impose any penalties? (I saw this, but it is written for 4e and IMO the answer left something to be desired)

dnd-5e combat readied-action

Sdjz

11:07

haha :)

Rubiksmoose

well then. lol

Sdjz

Out of combat, mixing ready actions, surprise and initiative is a recipe for 5e frustration

Rubiksmoose

@Ghiojo BTW I might hold off on awarding a checkmark just yet on your question. I think there are probably going to be more interesting good answers to it and sometimes having an answer marked can dissuade new answers. However, totally your call. Generally, we encourage people to wait around 24 hours to give a chance for a variety of answers especially sicne we have people from all different time zones.

Ghiojo

Well i'd say that readying outside of combat is narrative

Oh okay

and Well, I mean, you don't need to ready an action if you are sneaking, you just say "I wait until they pass next to me"

and then the DM narrates that they pass next to them

And then they describe "I attack them"

Rubiksmoose

@Ghiojo To be clear, that is not a rule or anything and you are certainly more than welcome to select an answer whenever you want. Just something to note from experience.

Ghiojo

11:11

"Roll iniciative, you got a surprise round" done.

Mhm, Yeah I know, but you're right

Sdjz

@Ghiojo Sounds good, probably compare the players stealth with the creature's passive perception for surprise and then go from there

Ghiojo

Yep

Well normally when someone's stealthing it's a gosh darn rogue with a 24 in Stealth to me so.

Literally, one player adventure with my brother: "Roll stealth" "24" "... f*** off."

And if not he rolls a 10 when the Zombie's passive perception is 9.

Rubiksmoose

@Sdjz Definitely. Readying is one of those things that is actually a really nice mechanic in theory, but it has just enough holes in it to make it a complete pain to actually use unless you have really thought through things ahead of time (as a DM).

Sdjz

On a completely different note, is the presence of a certain kind of monster in an adventure enough to warrant using spoilers in the body and a more generic question title? (that is, not referencing the monster by name in the question)

doppelgreener

would knowing that information be spoilery for the adventure?

i mean if i'm playing an adventure called Hoard of the Dragon Queen it's not spoilery to know there's dragons, and if there's elves that might not be surprising either, but knowing there's zombie dragons might spoil a third-act twist.

Sdjz

11:28

@doppelgreener Putting it in those terms I suppose it is probably fine. Hiding the specific location and conditions in a spoiler is probably enough then

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Aw man spoilers man! I thought it was an undead themed campaign :P

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose oh no what have I done

@Sdjz right, that sounds reasonable.

nitsua60

12:09

@Ben Actually, IIRC monsters generally get multiple attacks as part of the Multiattack action; with the possible exception of Champion or Veteran, I don't think any of them get multiple attacks via Attack.

Oh, nvm. We're not even talking about the same game. I'll blame the painkillers =\

Mike Q

@Sdjz Games like D&D usually have enough iconic enemies that they're bound to turn up eventually in any adventure. It's a spoiler if you say where and when they show up.

Or if it's a specific plot-relevant NPC or thing that is referenced by name (i.e. "What is the best strategy against Strahd's secret identical twin Jeff" )

Rubiksmoose

@Sdjz Also, several hardcover adventures have official player introduction information that comes with it. If you are really concerned you can look to see (if the campaign has it) if that info is already included in the player information they get beforehand.

nitsua60

@Sdjz And I'm pretty sure site-search works "through" spoiler blocks, so it won't kill off discoverability. But @doppelgreener probably knows better than I--maybe they can fact-check me.

Mike Q

I'm sure there are exceptions, like if you asked a question about the invisible telepathic werehyena druids in Cure of the Unknown Invisible Antagonist

nitsua60

@MikeQ Yeah, it'd stink if you learned out of the blue that Hew Hackingstone's actually an avatar of Paladine's evil twin, Schmaladine.

Sdjz

12:18

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. It does make sense and I think the question as posed is fine in regards to spoilers then.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 looks like spoilers get omitted from search text: this search works because it finds a word outside the spoiler; this search does not and it's looking for a word only found inside a spoiler.

if you take a look at the first search you can see the spoilers are also omitted from the search preview

nitsua60

So it's a spoiler in more ways than one...

Maybe it's google I'm thinking of? Or I'm just making things up. It's definitely one of those two, or something else.</tautology>

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Did the author mean "morale" rather than moral? any player loses all their moral the game is lost in the WW I letter writing game.

nitsua60

I believe so.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Google seems to be pretty clever about it (e.g. in this search). It recognises the words are on the page and will give us back this page for a result. However, it does not present those words in the search preview: it does not bold them. HOWEVER, it also doesn't tell us "these words couldn't be found:" so it knows they're there.

KorvinStarmast

12:32

@ravery Yep; and it drove my son out of the game in college.

@nitsua60 Hmm, wasn't sure if your requested bounty reminder posted here ... what am I doing wrong with chat today? scratches head

Rubiksmoose

JC has an interesting take on the cofeelock

DMs, if you allow multiclassing in your game and someone is tempted to abuse the combination of Flexible Casting and Pact Magic, remember this: one way to read the multiclass rules is that your Pact Magic slots are useless for any non-warlock thing besides casting spells.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1029177242985742337?s=19

fine, don't onebox it. Jerk.

Mike Q

13:02

Is that really an abused infinite cycle?

Let's see, you get a number of sorcery points equal to your sorcerer level, and Pact Magic slot level increases every odd warlock level, up to 5...

And Pact Magic doesn't contribute to total spellcasting levels

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose twitter links don't onebox if they have that ?s=## bit on the end. remove that bit if you want it to onebox.

Mike Q

So functionally speaking, they're getting 1, maybe 2, extra Pact Magic spell slots

Sdjz

70

Q: Does this cheesy character concept violate RAW, and if so how?

Does the following, very cheesy character concept, violate any RAW? Please cite rules or official rulings in your answer. (Apart from RAW, I expect my DM to disallow or limit the concept, in the interest of balance. That is not part of my question.) Elf. Multiclass: Sorcerer 2+ / Warlock 1+ / Ba...

dnd-5e rules-as-written multi-classing warlock sorcerer

Mike Q

> You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.

is the main limitation of this exploit

Sdjz

But there is no limitation to available spell slots so you can just convert the extra sorcery points into normal slots

nitsua60

13:07

@KorvinStarmast can you remind me of the question when you get a chance?

Mike Q

@Sdjz Oh, I see now. Short rest -> Refill Pact magic slots -> Convert Pact magic slots into sorcery points -> Fill up the sorcerer spellcasting slots?

Sdjz

@MikeQ yes but you don't just "fill up" the sorcerer spellcasting slots, you can have more than the normal "limit" even

sageadvice.eu/2018/04/30/__trashed-29

Mike Q

Right, ok. So Crafword's saying that Pact magic slots can't be burned for Sorcery points, then? His tweet is coy so I don't quite understand what he's implying.

Sdjz

@MikeQ Yes I think that is what he's saying

That breaks the whole thing naturally

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Here is where you asked for the reminder. It's the ToA AL game that blew up.

@MikeQ The cheese exploit is how people try to rules lawyer the short rests, the invocation that means you don't need sleep (XGtE) and how many short rests happen in a 24 hour period. See GiTP forums, dnd-5e, "coffeelock" threads.

Mike Q

13:18

@Sdjz To clarify, while I haven't seen an explicit duration on a sorcerer's extra spell slots, I figured "You regain ali spent sorcery points when you
finish a long rest." means that the extra spell slots disappear after a long rest.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ COrrect. See above at the attempted exploit.

Sdjz

@MikeQ That is the interpretation given in that sage advice as well

Oh the sorcerer actually specifies "The created spell slots vanish at the end of a long rest."

Maximillian

14:53

@Yuuki Thanks for the MH help. I started hunting the thing you were wearing.

Yuuki

Legiana is a cool mo-fo.

I've always to do some kind of Monster Hunter-esque campaign with D&D.

Maximillian

Simple crafting system kind of stuff?

Kingdom Death really felt like it follows the MH format. Pick a monster, hunt it, get parts, build out your weapons, armor, and /town/. Problem is the game is bleak and has no happy endings, in addition to being super expensive.

Carcer

15:11

KD always looked like it was pretty much MH except if it was also Berserk and full of inappropriate boobs

Maximillian

15:56

The creator likes girls, that's all I can say say on that one. He's an amusing, strange guy. Spent an hour hanging out with him at Gencon last year. Adam Poots!

Carcer

I don't think it's possible to know anything about KD and not understand that its creator really likes ladyparts

Colin Gross

@Carcer inappropriate boobs seems like an entire class of marketing gimmicks.

Surprisingly, it isn't already a subreddit

Carcer

yeah, but in KD it's not a marketing gimmick, it's like a core pillar of the aesthetic

like if HR Giger was really into drawing his penis monsters but also anime girls

The Oracle

0

Q: The [readied-action] and [triggered-actions] tags

There is a readied-action tag (101 questions tagged, 43 asked this year) with the following guidance: An action "held" to react to an anticipated circumstance. There is also a triggered-actions tag (only 12 questions tagged, only 2 asked this year) and no guidance. Are these two tags dist...

discussion tags

Colin Gross

Giger's art and universe is enjoyable without the monstrously scaled genitalia. The really overt stuff was omitted from the film adaptations of his art.

Maximillian

16:11

Yeah, Poots has a fair amount of body horror in his monsters.

The King from the cancelled update set was one of the stranger ones. The strangest ones were not adapted for gameplay and remain art pieces for sale on his store.

Colin Gross

@Carcer marketing is probably the wrong term then. What do you call it when you take a thing and then just have the same thing but with characters that have inappropriate boobs?

Rubiksmoose

16:29

This is a titilating discussion

Maximillian

Find dinosaur/flying dinosaur/lizardbeast with fur. Defeat in combat. Turn into hat. Find next dinosaur/lizardbeast

Acquire many hats.

Delioth

@Maximillian We TF2 now baby

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Get thee to a punnery

Yuuki

16:49

@Maximillian Yeah, I remember someone talking about it and I really thought Monster Hunter.

But it's grimdark and whatnot instead of campy.

:(

Maximillian

Monster Hunter manages to be a game about giant monster carnage and it's suprisingly bloodless. Also there are never any human foes or any serious treachery within the human camps.

It's a game about positive fun.

Unless you're a dinosaur/wyvern/lizardbeast/living volcano that is totally metal

I killed a flying bat creature that has a fluffy, inflatable air bladder around it's neck to let it hover like some kind of hot air balloon. I turned it into a fuzzy officers hat.

THAT is rewarding gameplay.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose how is component consumption not magical. What happens to the diamond for ressurection then?

(Refering to magical in an out of game sense. I know the in game term is different)

Yuuki

One thing I've found with Monster Hunter is that while it's a loot treadmill like WoW or Diablo, the act of running on the treadmill is in and of itself enjoyable.

Certain days of WoW raiding just felt completely rote.

But no two Rathalos are the same.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Let's step back a bit. Nothing magical can happen from a spell until the spell is completed. Without a complete casting there is no spell and no magic.

I honestly think that is pretty basic to how spellcasting works even if it is never spelled out as such.

Delioth

17:05

I feel the same way about Warframe. It's a game about grinding and looting and RNG loot drops... but while you're doing that you get to be a magical space ninja. Probably a little more rote than Monster Hunter, but there's a massive arsenal of weapons that helps to break it up (including but not limited to: a charged Flak Cannon, a jet-powered sickle-and-chain, throwing stars, tactical throwing bombs, plasma cannons, greatswords, crossbows, and jet powered throwing hammers)

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron The biggest evidence for this is the you can never tell if a spell is being cast if the components are not noticeable. That means there are no visual of other effects that happens until spellcasting is complete right?

Maximillian

Warframe gets good when you get to Second Dream / War Within.

The quality of story content jumps up dramatically

David Coffron

Ugh my phone isn't letting me press the reply button.

Delioth

Oh yeah, definitely. That's when the company realized that they can actually tell stories

Rubiksmoose

I think mine does that occassionally as well :(

Maximillian

17:07

I like it when you do quests where your /map/ changes as a result

Delioth

Waiting on more of the story expansions though. The Sacrifice leaves me wanting more

Maximillian

Clem is all the storyline you need.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose there are plenty of magical effects that don't require spells at all. Without specific guidance we can't assume that the formation of the circle needn't be magical

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose What about failed casting?

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross what about it?

@DavidCoffron Yes, but magical effects that are not spells are not spells and thus don't follow spellcasting rules.

Colin Gross

17:09

For example, failing to cast a scroll consumes the scroll... but the spell never happens.

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki It's beause monster hunter has a lengthy learning curve of mechanical skill

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose like wildshape!

Sir Cinnamon

It's not too steep, not too slow, and it lets you climb at your own pace, but you can always get better

Maximillian

Monster Hunter: World has a lower learning curve. Some of the complexity is shaved off or gated for much later game play

Sir Cinnamon

@Maximillian it's definitely more forgiving - having fast trave, equipment changing and eating on quests

Yuuki

17:10

And I swear they changed the hitboxes.

Maximillian

Not having to paintball targets.

Yuuki

I feel like I have Evade +1 on permanently.

Maximillian

I am still upset there is no flexing pose upon drinking potions. I mean, I forgive the game, but I enjoyed that stupid little thing so much.

Healing comes from flexing, not drinking.

Yuuki

ALSO WHERE IS MY PRANCE GESTURE??!!

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I don't think the forming of the circle follows all the Spellcasting rules

Sir Cinnamon

17:11

@Maximillian That might be more related to how much bigger and intricate the new maps are. Finding the monster in the first place would take a long time (and sometimes still does)

Maximillian

It's actually in the DLC stuff I think @Yuuki

Check the extended gestures bundles/DLC.. It may cost you a dollar, I forget.

Sir Cinnamon

DLC prancing... what a world

David Coffron

For example it doesn't follow the implicit rule that the magical effect proceeds the casting

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron It does though. Because the forming of the circle is not magical.

Yuuki

@Maximillian I actually enjoy tracking vs paintballing.

Paintballing was always a chore while tracking provides more immersion.

Sir Cinnamon

17:13

If any of yous wants to play some monster hunter anytime (after I've finished levelling in wow, what a week) here's my steam steamcommunity.com/id/Ilikeme

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose agreed but does that restrict where it forms?

Yuuki

They could possibly make tracking a bit harder though.

Maximillian

@Yuuki I don't hate it. It's different though.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Is this about the demon summoning with mage hand thing?

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron and to clarify, I mean that you must draw the circle manually. It doesn't just happen. However, I can see where RAW it doesn't say where the circle forms.

@ColinGross 'tis.

Colin Gross

17:17

I like the arcane trickster mage hand as a bonus action answer.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose why do I have to draw it manually? It just says you form

@ColinGross still don't think it works by SSD answer

Colin Gross

Can you move in the middle of casting a spell?

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron It actually says "you can form" but that doesn't necessarily matter here.

@ColinGross In fact, it doesn't even matter what action you gain to cast or move the hand, since you can't both cast simultaneously with moving the hand you can never use another action to help cast the spell like that.

David Coffron

@ColinGross sometimes. Some spells have long casting times that doesn't restrict movement

Colin Gross

Can a ritual spell be cast while walking?

NM rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/84997/…

Rubiksmoose

17:22

@DavidCoffron How would it possibly form without magic?

Colin Gross

Finger painting

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose How in world is a different question than does the mechanics allow

Mike Q

What if walking is part of the ritual

Colin Gross

@MikeQ You can walk while ritual casting. Found that answer on the stack shortly after asking it here.

If walking is part of your ritual the material component of the spell is probably a Fitbit

Mike Q

@ColinGross I cast Commune with Satellites

Rubiksmoose

17:24

@DavidCoffron Kind of. In this case the mechanics do not allow because spell effects do not take place before the spell is cast. And the circle forming would certainly be a spell effect by your reading.

David Coffron

:46206341 every instance of "form" I can find does not mention physical forming with your body. Whether it's magical or not is irrelevant. You form the circle on the ground. No other location is specified

Mike Q

Is Detect WiFi a cantrip or 1st-level spell

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I don't think it's a spell effect. It's an option as part of casting that is not necessarily magical

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Can you move while casting a spell that takes only one action?

It's part of the casting. Ostensibly pouring out a vial of blood in a circle around you.

David Coffron

@ColinGross no. You can't interrupt an action unless specified otherwise

@ColinGross do you have evidence that is the definition of form it uses?

Colin Gross

17:26

@DavidCoffron So the range of forming a circle of blood is limited to how far away you could do it without moving, no?

Could probably do it next to you.

@DavidCoffron No.. Actually finger paint, pour, smear with foot... the mechanics of how you form it are flavor.

The spell doesn't form the circle though. The caster does.

David Coffron

@ColinGross but does something say the caster can't form the circle 30 feet away?

Colin Gross

If the caster was capable of doing that somehow... sure. How is a human going to do that without moving?

A hula hoop filled with blood!

That's so good I've got to write that down

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I don't understand though. A spell effect is anything that the spell causes to happen in its description. So that means that either 1) the circle forms as part of the spell effect due to magic or 2) you form the circle manually as part of the casting and it is mundane. I really don't see what interpretation allows for both a mundane cricle forming that wasn't manually created.

David Coffron

Nothing says he has to physically form it

Mike Q

What if the experience of being interrupted is part of the ritual?

Colin Gross

17:29

As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle
on the ground with the blood used as a material com-
ponent. The circle is large enough to encompass your
space. While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't
cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone
within it. Using the material component in this manner
consumes it when the spell ends.

Rubiksmoose

In fact I don't see any other interpretation besides those two. @DavidCoffron do you agree with either of them? Or am I missing something?

David Coffron

Whoops. Misflagged trying to remove accidental star

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron lol nbd.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron I would interpret "you can form a circle on the ground" as the caster is the one forming the circle. If the caster has telekinetic abilities for free... they could use those.

Rubiksmoose

I'm actually kind of coming over to the other way of seeing this as a magical effect though strangely. I was solidly in camp 2 but now I think camp 1 has some interesting points.

Colin Gross

17:31

That's not that the circle forms as the result of the action of the spell.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose it is a fantastical (not magical) effect of circle formation

Colin Gross

Like the spells that include making an attack as part of the casting.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron uhhhh is there precedence for spells causing non-magical non-mundane things to happen? I'm not sure what fantastical would even mean in this context.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron fantastical vs magical seems like splitting hairs.

@Rubiksmoose Bigby's fist punches aren't magical... the hand is, but the damage is pretty mundane albeit fantastical

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross The damage is mundane. Again, I'm not sure what fantastical is even supposed to mean. I mean it is an effect that is literally caused by a spell. It is a spell effect. And spell effects are magical.

GreySage

17:35

@ColinGross If there is confusion over a term (which there obviously is in this case), then splitting hairs is not only acceptable but necessary

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener In re your point in the edit; having read through the whole comment stream, top to bottom, before deciding to answer it was a bit jarring to see my prediction be so wrong. But your are right. Best that be removed.

Colin Gross

@GreySage Sure, but fantastical isn't even a term being considered. If we're adding terms, I'd like to throw preposterous into the mix

preposterous vs magical vs fantastical effects.

David Coffron

@ColinGross a dragon's breath is nonmagical but fantastical for example

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I think fantastical is a good word for that. However, it doesn't apply here. Things caused by spells are magical.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose it's not caused by the spell. It can't be since the spell hasn't been cast yet

(Why is autocorrect correcting the word yet)

Colin Gross

17:40

@DavidCoffron I'd describe it as preposterous.

Delioth

@DavidCoffron Is there a citation that no spell can ever cause effects to occur before absolute and complete casting of the spell?

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Then what power is causing this effect to happen? If it isn't magic from the spell and it isn't the manual work of the caster, what is causing it?

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose the wording in the spell description. How you describe it in universe is up to you

Colin Gross

The caster is making a circle on the ground as part of casting the spell.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose The laws of magic of the universe

Rubiksmoose

17:42

@DavidCoffron Things that come from spell descriptions are spell effects.

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Or component requirements.

Delioth

Because that seems to be the crux here - can a spell have side-effects that occur during the casting, before completion, and can those side effects be carried out through other actions

DOOManiac

Hi folks. I've got some D&D 5E concerns that I think may be best addressed here, because its kind of hard to nail down. I'm the DM w/ my friends and we are all completely new to D&D (except I've been listening to some 4e & 5e podcasts for about a year). I think I completely screwed up at the beginning w/ our two Wizards, and if I did, I'm looking for a fair and fun way to correct the problem (if it needs correcting.)

Basically, when we started I gave them the entirety of Level 1 spells in their spellbook because I thought that was what they were supposed to start out with. But I just recen…

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose The opening line of the spell description is "You utter foul words, summoning one demon from the chaos of the Abyss." Are the foul words a spell effect or a vocal component?

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast a bonus action is just an action. You cannot do two actions at the same time. It is just common sense.

Delioth

17:44

@DOOManiac IIRC don't Wizards get 2 spells that they get to just add to their spellbooks every level (which, when they hit level 3, could be used to gain 2 level 2 spells)

David Coffron

@DOOManiac Just state that they had written down all of the level 1 spells before the game started via the Spellbook rules in the PHB

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I dunno.... i've seen people juggle and text at the same time.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross It is a description of the mundane activity of performing spell components.

DOOManiac

Okay, so maybe I salvage it by saying their Wizard training gave them a good education and college tuition paid for a spellbook full of every damn thing, but now they have to fill the rest up by what they find as loot + the 2 free they get every level?

GreySage

@DOOManiac If you read the Wizard class description it lists how many spells Wizards start with and how many they learn at each level. They should only know these spells (+ any using the spellbook rules).

Colin Gross

17:45

@Rubiksmoose So the making a circle in blood could be a mundane, yet macabre, description of performing spell components?

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Absolutely. And that is exactly what I think the most reasonable interpretation is.

Delioth

@Rubiksmoose Do you have a citation for that? Because I can definitely do two things at once, like dash and make an attack (assuming I'm a rogue using Dash as a bonus action)

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Thanks for understanding.

DOOManiac

@GreySage Where does it say how many they start with? I know they start w/ an amount they can prepare, but I haven't seen anything about a limit on spells in the spellbook? Oh and we are using the Starter Kit and I don't have the full DMG yet :X

David Coffron

@DOOManiac they learn level 2 spells from levelling up (if they want a spell of that level) or by copying spells from other Spellbook or spell scrolls

Colin Gross

17:46

@Rubiksmoose I don't think anything about summoning demons is reasonable.

@DOOManiac It's in the PHB

DOOManiac

We don't have PHB either

Rubiksmoose

@Delioth I can do a lot of things that D&D rules do not allow.

DOOManiac

@DavidCoffron Okay, so if I want to reward and slightly OP them (they are struggling) I can let them find a scroll of ____ in the dungeon + their two free Level 2 spells they will get the next time we play?

Delioth

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, but do the rules expressly disallow you from having two actions happen concurrently? Because if they don't expressly disallow it then it's fair game

David Coffron

@Delioth the dash action just gives you extra movement. And the attack action specifically allows movement between attacks

Colin Gross

17:48

@DOOManiac roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wizard#toc_4

They start with 6 level 1 spells

David Coffron

@DOOManiac yeah. If you read the section on wizards it describes how to copy spells into ones Spellbook

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron but not as part of an attack unless otherwise stated

David Coffron

@ColinGross I suppose yes but you can use your movement before and after the attack so it's often synonymous

Colin Gross

You can't move as part of a regular attack unless the attack has that written into it. You can split up a multi attack with a move because it says you can, correct?

GreySage

@DOOManiac Wizards start with 3 cantrips, 6 level 1 spells, and gain 2 spells each level of any spell level they can cast

David Coffron

17:50

@ColinGross correct

Rubiksmoose

@Delioth "The rules don't say you can't" is very poor logic for an argument. There are infinite things the rules do not say that you cannot do. It does not mean those thigns are allowed however.

3

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Functionally actions are resolved sequentially for simplicity and sanity.

I've already got enough callbacks and promises to deal with without having to deal with them at the tabletop ;-p

Delioth

@Rubiksmoose While that's true, this is one of those times where the idea that there's a human Dungeon Master is an important sticking point for the rules. There are infinite things that the rules don't disallow. A human judge of what is silly or just not allowed is important, because there are also very real things that make sense from an in-world standpoint that just don't have rules around them. Infinitely many, in fact.

Carcer

hey, this guy stole my avatar!

DOOManiac

I think I see my error. I got mixed up between available spells in the spellbook, and prepared spells. I thought level 1, starting wizards could prepare 5 spells but had the whole book to pick from. Instead it looks like they have 6 spells total and can prepare 4 (Level 1 + INT3)?

David Coffron

17:54

Form could mean "gradually appear or develop." OR "make or fashion into a certain shape" there is no way of judging which form the spell refers other than precedent. Most other cases of form refer to the former

DOOManiac

/me high fives Carcer

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose the rules don't say I can't annihilate the planet by kicking it.

Carcer

@DOOManiac Yes, they've got a number of spells in their spellbook and from those spells known they can chooser a smaller number of spells prepared

Delioth

Because 2 actions resolving concurrently isn't even just a rules thing... all the actions in-world take place concurrently. Part of the abstraction is to order them into sequential steps, but the world doesn't actually take place sequentially. Thus, there's a human element on whether you can resolve some sets of actions at the same time... and whether you can use that concurrency to use the actions together.

Carcer

Clerics/Druids/Paladins do effectively have access to all spells on their respective list and don't need to learn them individually like wizards do, so that contributes to the confusion sometimes.

DOOManiac

17:57

Yeah, cause we have a Cleric in the group too.

Mike Q

I know there's abstractions, and turns of combat are supposed to be concurrent-ish, but I don't think that means actions are also concurrent

DOOManiac

And none of us know what we're doing

Carcer

ah, you'll get the hang of it.

Transcript for