TRPG General Chat - 2018-08-06 (page 2 of 2)

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6:00 PM

"Plot Hook: He needs help organizing a pie eating competition."

(Because an encounter with 1 Shaman, 1 Fighter, and 3 mooks that are surprised as you come towards their camp is notably different from the same monsters but in their den that they had warning that you're arriving)

I'll invest a ton of time balancing their feats and abilities to make sure their offenses and defenses are within acceptable bounds, and then poof, they don't matter anymore

It was fun at first but now campaign prep is like a second full-time job

@MikeQ Don't take the time to do that.

Ugh, annoying DM is fighting me over how a paladin gets their power in 5e.

@Delioth Well otherwise I end up with NPCs that are too weak or too strong

@NautArch They get it from Amazon

6:02 PM

@MikeQ Protip: If they're a little too weak or a little too strong, it doesn't matter. Unless they're literally strong enough to one-shot a character, it's not a problem

@NautArch Seriously, at this point in the game?

@MikeQ with my campaigns (5e), I look for a monster that is close to what I want then reskin it.

And too weak is almost never a problem - throw in the Advanced template for that little boost they need (+2 hp/CR, +2 to all rolls)

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, he's making a 'joke' about my god revoking my powers and I said that no, they came from my oath and not my god.

But then he doubled down

@NautArch ugh

6:05 PM

@Rubiksmoose last message to him was "But this is a silly argument. It's your world and I'll have it be a divine source."

Sent him the stack Qs on it

Still, the primary problem is the amount of effort in preparing the encounter. For example, let's say I have an encounter involving some sneaky-type enemies. This means I spend a bunch of time with the following questions:
1. Which class to use? UnRogue? Ninja? Slayer? Multiclass?
2. What feats and rogue talents do they need? What about teamwork feats?
3. Uh oh, is their average damage too low? Sneak attack damage too high? AC high but no saves? Time to go back and readjust their ability scores.

Compare that to:
1. Pick a CR and use the monster customization table to get AC, attack, HP, etc. Adjust if necessary.
2. Lowball the per-hit damage, then add sneak attack to compensate
3. MAYBE pick up some class features, like fun abilities that trigger on sneak attacks

Cleric + Warlock, Your deity and your patron constantly arguing. "We agreed this was MY week!" "That was last week!"

Barbarian + Wizard. Your Arcane Tradition is Fists.

@Yuuki Paladins have employers, warlocks have sugar daddies.

@Yuuki I'd like to see an arcane tradition built around hitting people with their spellbooks

6:11 PM

@MikeQ There's an Inquisitor thing like that for Pathfinder

1. It doesn't actually matter. Slayer is simplest.
2. It also doesn't matter. Weapon Focus, Piranha Strike, Assume most of the others are utility stuff (Skill Focus). Remember these people aren't just monsters, they're people with real stuff. If you don't assign a bunch of feats you can assume that they're used on their own personal things (Skill Focus: Craft (Sweet Rolls))
3. Ignore it. If the balance is a bit off the tables, don't worry about it - you'll notice if the monster has enough damage to just kill someone outright, otherwise they're just a strong threat. If they start doing vastl…

@LukeSommers Yep, the Living Grimoire, it's really gimmicky

@MikeQ Yeah, I didn't care for it much.

Like I said, I just use a program to build characters, but it's not wrong to leave a few feats un-assigned

A surprising amount of Bestiary creatures have a stack of useless feats\

"She always obeys her superiors." "She always does what she is told not to." What is the truth???

6:14 PM

Monk + Wizard. Your Arcane Tradition is also Fists.

Monk + Sorcerer. You don't have a bloodstream, you have a fiststream.

@Yuuki This is one of those things I'm ready to play in Pathfinder 2e. Dedication feats are nice, one class feat for 2 cantrips, more class feats give real spells (up to 8th level)

Someone: "You're going to hell!" My tiefling alchemist: "Again? Really?"

@LukeSommers both can be true depending on your definition of "what she is told not to"

@DavidCoffron True enough.

But I'm so ready for all the [classname] dedications to exist. Need that Barbarian dedication for a Paladin or that Sorcerer Dedication for that fighter

6:19 PM

@Delioth I just don't understand why there have to be so many modifiers. I like the mechanics simplification that a lot of recent rpgs are doing. Keeping track of so much stuff is why I didn't like 3.5

@DavidCoffron There are a bunch of modifiers?

Do you mean like on rolls or like the Traits that everything has?

Because rolls have like 6 modifiers tops (since there are only proficiency & 3 kinds of bonus, and penalties also sometimes have one of 2 types). And Traits are a beautiful and elegant thing to this software engineer's mind (and can also be ignored in most cases)

@Delioth little of both but the rolls are my main gripe

Hell, pf2e has way fewer modifiers

You got Stat bonus, Proficiency, Item Bonus, Circumstance Bonus, Conditional Bonus, and then Circumstance/Conditional penalty and untyped penalties

And that's all there is for any roll ever

An image just flashed through my head and it was my rogue, it was just the notes saying "She gay" and now that's canon

@Delioth from 5e this still seems like a lot lol.

6:28 PM

Importantly pf2e doesn't have untyped bonuses, so you can't stack up a bunch of bonuses

@Delioth yeah. That's a start, but I'd prefer only a few bonuses available (like how advantage works in 5e). Makes the game mostly math free. I think AC and proficiency additions is all you really have to calculate in 5e

I mean to each their own, just makes the game feel more... gamey to me

Probably. Pathfinder has always been and will probably always be way more crunchy than 5e

But all of that can also be pre-calculated so you can just add a number to a die roll

If Pathfinder 2e dropped all the crunchiness they'd just lose a ton of the consumer base (since then it just becomes "5e but with more choices")

(Seeing as right now I'm pretty sure a character makes more decisions for build in the first 5 levels in Pathfinder 2e than a 5e character has in their entire 1-20 lifetime)

What's your guys' favorite PF skill?

Since by that point you have (minimum) about 7 feats, about 10 ability score boosts, and have chosen between 2 and 14ish skills to be trained in

@Delioth holy moley I forgot that pf hands feats out like candy

6:36 PM

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, every other level, I think Fighters get even more

@Rubiksmoose 1 per odd hit dice, +1 for humans or other races, + class bonus feats

Pathfinder 2e takes it further than these guys even. Yeah, roughly one feat every level - class feats at 1 and every even level (unless you're a spellcaster getting a proficiency bump for spells), Ancestry feats at 1 and every 4 thereafter, General feats at 3 and every 4 thereafter

And skill feats between every level (rogue) and every other level (fighter)

yikes.

How many feats are required to avoid touching Pathfinder 2e with a 10-foot pole

@MikeQ Oh shush, it's actually really nice

6:38 PM

Does the 10-foot pole give me reach? Or do I need more feats for that?

Skill feats are probably going to be used more often to increase proficiency rank instead of actually taking a skill feat

@MikeQ Two; a left feet and a right feet and you use them to run in the opposite direction.

reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5nmrle/…

"Yo dawg I heard you like feats, so I put feats in your feats so you can minmax while you minmax"

And class feats come from lists per-class, or from Dedication feats to multiclass

And most feats don't give a straight numeric bonus, they're new actions that you can use (like Power Attack being a 2-action attack that deals an extra die of damage; rather than giving you a scaling attack penalty for a scaling damage boost that's different if you use one hand or two)

6:40 PM

@Delioth Smaller lists would definitely make this less daunting for sure.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah - like a level 1 fighter has like 4 class feats to choose from, and they're pretty defining.

Like no-one who's planning on charging into melee is going to just take Point Blank Shot as their level 1 Class feat

@Delioth Still, all this is confirming what I'd expected which is P2E is just still not for me.

@Delioth You underestimate my powers of tomfoolery.

Or Wizards can choose from like... Reach Spell metamagic, Widen Spell metamagic, a Familiar, or... something?

@Rubiksmoose I think it's probably worth trying. In the playtest there's only enough content that you probably only have... 5ish choices for each feat at each level, if that.

But you can pull off concepts in the playtest even that weren't possible in pathfinder 1e at any point effectively (like a wizard in armor on a mount)

@Delioth I hope players who like the crunch enjoy it, but it's just not for me. I get my number crunching fun out of Europa Universalis 4 (which has WAAAY more than PF, xD)

6:44 PM

@Delioth I'm not knocking it (not intentionally anyways) it is just that it seems still significantly more crunchy than 5e and crunch is just not at all what I want in my games anymore. Certainly not more crunch than 5e. At least not without some really compelling reason for crunch.

@DavidCoffron I mean, it's still way less crunchy than Pathfinder 1e

@Delioth It would probably be hard to be more number crunchy wouldn't it?

@Delioth I might give it a try after I graduate in december (that's when I plan on spreading my legs to other systems), but for now 5e does good and I don't have time for more than the 3 games I'm in with schoolwork

Don't get me wrong, PF was my first RPG playing and DMing and I did so for years.

@Rubiksmoose Not really. Isn't GURPS super-crunchy?

But yeah, 5e isn't bad... I just don't like how restrictive it is. When I play it I felt like any fighter I built was the same as the next fighter.

6:46 PM

I still wanna make a system thats hyper realistic where you basically just do 1 fight per session

@Delioth How did you normally build them?

Pathfinder 2e I think is a good bridge between the simplicity and streamline-y-ness of 5e and the crunchiness of 2e

@DavidCoffron Number crunching is fun until every round becomes "Ok, what's my attack bonus again? Normally it's a +10 but I have a +4 enhancement increase to Strength, which overrides my +2 belt which translates to a net +2, but that's a +1 to the attack roll... What spells are active? There's +1 from Haste and +2 from this and +2 from that, also -3 from power attacking, and I get +4 to confirm a crit, uh..."

@DavidCoffron Depending on where you are, maybe 2 or 3.

@DavidCoffron I feel like the fight/session makes a lot of sense. Having to create resource management over 4 sessions seems kind of silly and frustrating for all involved. I'd rather have the 15 minute adventuring day with one huge fight where you have all your resources but it's very a deadly fight.

6:48 PM

@Delioth Not sure, never played.

@MikeQ That's where Pathfinder 2e is so much better. You have exactly 5 kinds of bonus you can have, and 3 of them are mostly static (Proficiency only changes when you level up, stat bonuses only change when you either level up or during daily preparation when you invest magic items, item bonuses only change when you use items)

giantitp.com/forums/… Here's a nice guide for optimizing multiclassing.

@LukeSommers oh no. not that guide again...

So you only have to determine the biggest Circumstantial bonus you have and the biggest Conditional bonus you have

@DavidCoffron Is something wrong with it?

6:50 PM

And there are the same 2 types of penalty, plus some possible untyped penalties. Feedback has said combat's much faster than 1e since there really aren't a ton of always-changing bonuses

@LukeSommers it's great advice. I just think it's a little.... bottlenecky?

@DavidCoffron Ah.

I would never recommend it to someone because I prefer a character build to feel organic and then optimized from there

@DavidCoffron Got it. I tend to just use it for ideas.

Also, is it just me, or does multiclassing into Warlock seem easiest from a roleplaying view? Wizards you have to study, Rogues have to practice, but Warlock is like "So I signed my name and now I have weird powers and a voice in my head,"

@LukeSommers that's a good use for it. It has a lot of well written sections to help understand the value of certain features

@LukeSommers I mean bards pretty easy too, but yeah Warlock are very simple to work into a story

6:57 PM

Sorcerers too.

Anyone have a favorite Cleric domain?

@LukeSommers trickery is lots of fun but my favorite has to be Forge (I've played a lot of clerics btw)

@DavidCoffron Nice. Yeah, Fire immunity is awesome!

7:22 PM

I have a death cleric, which is technically supposed to be evil, but if I have him worshiping a LN god of death, that just doesn't make sense for him to be evil.

7:47 PM

@LukeSommers I really enjoyed tempest, but I'd like to try Arcana.

@LukeSommers that's why they released the grave domain. You might want to have a look

oh yes, definitely go grave domain for non-evil cleric of death, it's a much better fit

8:03 PM

And knowledge domain has matrix upload powers if you don't have a skill monkey

> "What are you trying to tell me? That I can use the dodge action against projectiles?"
"No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're high enough level, you won't have to."

reaches monk level 3 I know kung fu"

"Show me".
"It's right here in the class description. *Martial Arts* class feature."
"It doesn't *say* kung fu! It might be karate!"

> "No one's ever made the first jump."
"I know, I know, but what if he casts Fly?"

Someone will make him laugh .... and he'll fall prone

8:12 PM

> "Nobody can cast fly at first level."
"But what if he's fifth?"

> I thought it wasn't real
> Your mind makes it real
> If you're killed in the matrix, you die here?
> The body cannot live without the mind

But... magic jar?

> Tell me, Mr. Anderson... what good is a phone call... if you're unable to speak?

> I have Subtle Spell!

> "Do not try and bend the spoon. The DC is too high."

> "There is no spoon."
"If I try to bend the spoon, that counts as interaction for the purposes of illusions, right?"
"Stop metagaming, Neo."

8:31 PM

This is what I come back to? Alright.

@DavidCoffron I like the grave domain, but I prefer what Death does.

> "None of you guys got higher than a 9 on your perception checks? Okay, I'll roll one too. 17!"
> "This is cheap bullshit and okay you see a cat and then you see the same cat again."

> Trinity: "A deja vu is usually a glitch in the DM's notes. It happens when they retcon something."
Tank: "I immediately start searching for traps."
Morpheus: "I take out my weapons, just in case."
Neo: "Wait, are we in combat?"
DM: "You guys are the worst. Rocks fall and Mouse dies."
Trinity: "That's fine, he was the hireling."

5

> Just get to the phone

> "I use Mist Form"

> No you have to actually pick up the phone :facepalm:

> Neo: "Can we res him?"
Trinity: "You can if you're a cleric."
Cypher: "He's not a cleric."
Morpheus: "He might be if he believes."
DM: "He can multiclass later. Also you need the body to resurrect him."
Cypher: [takes notes]

> "He's firing his gun at me? I cast Protection Against Normal Missiles!"
> "Wait, which edition are we playing?"

8:43 PM

> Neo: Am I dead?

> Morpheus: Far from it. Roll a Death Saving Throw.

> "The Oracle told me that I would have to make a choice."
"What choice?"
"ASI or feat"

3

I love this chat. I don't even know what to star.

@Secespitus Everything.

the deja vu retcon joke is objectively the funniest

@Carcer I really should have followed it up with Neo asking if they get XP

8:56 PM

Should I go STR Grave cleric or DEX?

@LukeSommers DEX usually beats STR in 5e when there's a tradeoff

@MikeQ I don't have proficiency with matial weapons

@LukeSommers wisdom based with magic Initiate druid is probably the actual best.

@DavidCoffron Was going to use War Caster, is MI better than having a shield/weapon and weapon, basically ignoring somatic?

You get shillelagh, a daily goodberry, and another druid cantrip

9:00 PM

Alright then

But there are other options. War caster has its own strengths and the difference is miniscule. I'd say play whatever you are going to have more fun with

Got it

Planning for her to be more support, so should I go with Faerie Fire instead?

@MikeQ yes, that would have elevated it to comedy platinum

Went with Shillelagh, Faerie Fire, and Produce Flame since I don't have dark vision

Leather, AC 13 w/ no stealth disadvantage or Scale Mail, AC 15 w/ stealth disadvantage?

Can druids wear scale mail?

9:10 PM

I'm not a druid, used MI

Derp, I misinterpreted "magic initiate druid"

Heh

If you expect to be in close combat, then go with the higher AC, and rely on party members for scouting

Also consider that you can have both on your person and switch as you need them

I've only played a few campaigns, or parts of them, so I'm not sure what a support character would do. My spells are mainly ranged, and I can cast Spare the Dying at 30 feat.

9:14 PM

(like if you have a forest adventure where you don't expect to find enemies, wear the leather around... but swap to scale mail when you camp just out of sight of the big bad's fortress probably)

Level one, have to choose

Higher AC will definitely be king at level 1

yeah, get the scale male and diversify later once you have money if you feel the need

Having only like 10 hp means those 2 AC can save your life, but the Stealth disadvantage probably won't kill you. An ally may be able to assist you to negate that disadvantage, or you can take the armor off for a stint if you need it

higher AC will benefit you a lot more on the whole than better stealth checks

9:16 PM

I'll probably have a shield as well, I'll have a Qstaff as well, but I still want to cast Toll the Dead and stuff.

Spare the dying at 30 ft. + Healing Word?

You're not going to have too many options available to you at first level anyway so don't worry too much about it

I can cast Spare the Dying (Almost used an abbreviation there, DO NOT) as a bonus action, but I don't have to, right?

use the limited spells you have at appropriate moments and the grand strategy stuff will start to come up at later levels when you have more spells/abilities and there's interplay

@LukeSommers yes, it's "can" not "must"

hm... in fact, I think you can probably strictly cast it twice a round then (though circumstances where that's necessary are concerning)

I have a higher AC, might as well go with Cure Wounds

Yeah, you could cast it twice a round - once with action and once with bonus action

Your AC does enable you to get into the fray a bit more, yeah.

9:28 PM

Although I like Healing Word a bit better because it frees up your action, and you can do other stuff besides be a healbot

at higher level, when you can memorise more spells you'll probably want to prepare both, for the versatility

@Carcer Death domain (How I read it) can still only cast it at touch, but touch is around 5 ft., so if Death domain can target 2 people within range and within 5 feet of each other, I could technically Spare 2 people with just my action, right?

Why is Shillelagh pronounced like that

it's an irish word

Ah, that's why

they're never pronounced anything like how they're written in anglicised form

@LukeSommers Yes, a Death domain cleric can use spare the dying on two targets they can touch that are within five feet of each other, I think

9:39 PM

@Carcer I discussed it with my old DM and he said he would allow it, but I should ask the DM of the game I would use him in if I could

Go to google translate, translate "White" into Welsh, go down to nghannaid, and see how it's pronounced

I don't see that it's a contentious reading

Hm?

it's a necromancy cantrip, normally affects one target, Reaper should apply

it's not quite in keeping with the feature's theme, but pretty plainly works with the rules as written

Oh, I thought you were talking about Nghannaid

oh, sorry

I'm still not very consistent at the stack chat reply-linking thing. More used to IRC and such unthreaded chat

10:04 PM

I played Blackout today and am not particularly impressed.

@Anaphory Are you telling us that playing it made you want to blackout?

Nah, it wasn't that bad ;) I'm just telling you next time someone offers it, I might back out. (Probably not even that.)

1 hour later…

11:21 PM

1

Q: Is [tag:absent-players] a useful tag?

While answering another question here in meta, I noticed we actually have a absent-players tag. It had few questions tagged as it, though (and one tagged as missing-players, which should be a synonym imo, but I don't have score in any of them to suggest it). It draws attention that we have a good...

discussion tags

the whole "not guessing what game/edition a querent means" rule is really frustrating sometimes

I can definitely see that, but it's supposed to encourage us all to remember and also remind each other to tag the system in our questions

I think anyway

11:36 PM

no, the point of it is that well-meaning editors/answerers have gotten it wrong by assuming they knew what the questioner meant enough times that we now rule that you can't make that presumption on behalf of the querent

Well that too

But to be honest that is also more reason for people to tag thier questions

but that's still very frustrating when it is tremendously obvious which game/edition the querent is referring to, but for whatever reason they are failing to actually explicitly say it

well all questions should be properly tagged, yes

But yeah again, I see how frustrating it is

I guess it'd be less frustrating in this case if the querent hadn't come back after the comment was left asking them to please say which game they're actually playing and edited the question but still left that out

I think the problem is, Even in cases where it actually is obvious and the second party guesses right, it amounts to making exceptions to a rule that is supposed to keep people from guessing when they are wrong

11:41 PM

yeah, I'm not arguing that an exception should be made for me because I'm so smart and always right

just venting

Tis fair

I do that enough myself

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