TRPG General Chat

NautArch

15:00

And once they hear the wrong voice...

Stabby stabby

Rubiksmoose

how many different Ranger archetypes/subclasses/whatever were there in 3/3.5?

ravery

@MikeQ -- At one point the shipments are secreted away at night via a secret passage. they need to discover this. There is a few different ways they might gain the information or atleast clue to it

Mike Q

@NautArch Once they hear the wrong voice, they would probably try to raise the alarm first

@ravery Other checks may come up too, like intimidate (e.g. "You dare question my identity? How dare you! I will report you to the high inquisitor for subordination!"). Also you may want to engage the other players, rather than having everyone sit around and watch the bard interact with the NPCs.

ravery

@MikeQ yes, Ideally each would choose a different method of investigation to run somewhat simultaneously to gain all the clues.

which will lead to the rogue picking a lock and discovering the secret passage

Mike Q

15:17

@ravery That's one option but you should have others. From one GM to another: Avoid setting up anything that is contingent on a specific course of action from a specific player.

Unless you and the players are okay with railroading specific PCs

ravery

@MikeQ -- yes there a few ways to get past the lock, picking it is the least risky

and I think they will recognize that

and the sprite might be better at searching for the secret passage

I've had to improvise a few times based on what they chose to do instead of what they should have done

The barabarian is a good role-player, spent 10 minutes convincing him not to take the dragon egg they acquired with them on the mission

Rubiksmoose

15:33

I'm still not happy with that Ranger question, but I am just not able to elaborate on why exactly. I just think it is way too broad. But maybe I am just grumpy or something.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose did somebody say grumpy? I'm here!

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch hahaha. We could have a grump-off.

NautArch

It's interesting to see Carcer's JC quotes about the ranger and player unhappiness from old and then the newer ones where he seems to walk that back.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Indeed. Reading between the lines he seems to be blaming the Revised Ranger for making perceptions of the Ranger worse.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I've got a ranger in my game who I let switch to the Revised. The revised is crazy powerful.

Mike Q

15:36

I'm sure that an answer along the lines of "The ranger is not historically weak, and here is why" would be fine per the stack standards

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Yeah it would certainly be an interesting frame challenge, but it would be pretty hard to pull off I feel. You have to do some sort of analysis in each relevant version to show that it is not in fact underpowered.

And I don't even know how you would treat all the archetypes/subclasses in the evaluations.

ravery

the ranger I made with 5e rules is a pretty heavy melee hitter

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch JC's big thing now is that there will be no alternate classes released. They are going to fix it on a feature to feature level I guess.

(if at all)

Mike Q

In terms of a 3e, 3.5e, 5e analysis, it may be worthwhile to mention that the ranger's strengths are often circumstantial, whereas most of the other classes gain power through versatility and being able to prepare for a variety of challenges

Rubiksmoose

For anyone who missed my talk on YouTube and Twitter about the ranger and other classes in 2017: –We’re not releasing a second version of a class. Too confusing for people. –We continue to explore ways to make the classes you have better, including revision in rare cases. #DnD https://twitter.com/RubiksMoose/status/1023961700880539648

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on July 30, 2018 at 4:09 PM

Pixie

15:41

@nitsua60 I'm toying with the idea of, later in the game I'm planning, presenting a pocket dimension that most of the area's unicorns fled to in the time of an ancient magical catastrophe that destroyed about half the nation the game was set in. The unicorns accidentally got themselves stuck, and the PCs will be able to enter and attempt rescue if they choose. I can only imagine their reaction if the reward was friendship. :v

Rubiksmoose

in response to this

ravery

@pixie -- friendship with the unicorn nation might be a significant boon :)

Rubiksmoose

Interestingly, the question we have about Ranger power comparison in 5e seems to trend towards Hunter is not UP but Beastmaster still is a poor option. here

Mike Q

Rangers aren't bad, and they excel in very specific situations. Otherwise they are a "jack of all trades, master of none" class. They get a smattering of partial abilities that other classes get, but never enough to outshine the other classes. They get martial abilities, but less than a fighter. They get spellcasting, but less than a druid. They may get extra battlefield coverage via a companion, but it's not as strong as a summoned monster (or in previous editions, the druid's companion).

Pixie

@ravery Yes, that in and of itself would be quite useful... unless the unicorns think the party's friendship is good enough and decide they'd rather keep to themselves. :P (Nah, I wouldn't actually do this.)

NautArch

15:45

@Rubiksmoose Yup, and that quote actually seems to suggest they do NOT think there is a problem. Maybe a perceived problem, but not an actual one?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch [shrug] I have no idea.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose All I really know is I've played a brief encounter with a regular hunter ranger and enjoyed it. And seen the regular hunter vs the revised and feel the revised might actually be too powerful.

GreySage

@Pixie What happens when the PCs decide to domesticate the unicorns and start running a unicorn farm?

Mike Q

Rangers aren't even the best trackers or wilderness experts - druids are much better at this. Possibly clerics or wizards, or even a well-built rogue.

Pixie

@GreySage Then I'm totally game for my game becoming Unicorn Farm Simulator. :v (Though the unicorns might bane something to say about it.)

Colin Gross

15:50

@MikeQ The complaints I've heard about rangers are along those lines. Even without multi-attack, the rogue outclasses them in damage output with a bow.

Pixie

Have, not bane. Ugh. That's one of my phone's favorites.

ravery

@NautArch - I built a hunter ranger level4, hunter's mark, colossal slayer, two wepon fighting style with dual finesse weapons and 18 dex. he rolls out 20-30 damage

and next level he getd extra attack

Colin Gross

@ravery That's not bad for a melee build actually. Definitely nice for taking down monolithic encounters.

NautArch

@ColinGross plus some CC spells and good out of combat utility, too.

Sir Cinnamon

I think its beast master that needs a little help, not ranger in general

ravery

15:58

@ColinGross -- Yes, last night he almost took down a bugbear in a single round. Of course the mage hit it with Magic Missile first to trigger colossal

Colin Gross

You get 3 L1 slots or is it 4?

ravery

@NautArch -- yep he has heal also

Colin Gross

The slots are long rest though... 3 hunters marks isn't bad though.

ravery

@ColinGross 3 levle one slots at 4th

doppelgreener

god damn, this is a good articulation of my issues with favored enemies and terrain and similar abilities:

1

A: What about the ranger keeps making it weak?

D&D 3e designer Monte Cook gave this feedback on the ranger: I was always worried about the ranger. The fact that his abilities kick in when the DM wants them to (when the adventure contains his favored enemies) rather than when the player wants them to, like the barbarian, always seemed to m...

the ranger has a highly variable power level based on whether you are operating in your favoured terrain or not, and whether you are fighting your favoured enemies or not. most classes have general-purpose abilities that just work against most enemies, so have a more consistent power level.

the DM basically tells the ranger what power level they're at, but it also places responsibility on the DM to manage this, to regularly feature that favoured enemy and that terrain so the ranger can use their features, but not all the time.

Rubiksmoose

16:10

@doppelgreener Yeah rangers also require a lot of collaboration to setup on character creation to make sure they don't screw themselves by choosing the wrong features. I've had that issue before.

doppelgreener

there's also narrative collaboration: whatever favoured enemy the ranger chooses now needs to be a mainstay of the campaign. did they choose giants? you now need to have lots of giants on a regular basis, and this says a lot about your game world, or at least the parts of it you will explore and be adventuring in and solving problems in. it says there are probably even giants in the dungeons beneath the cities.

so the GM and ranger need to work together to work out a range of options that will work for the campaign narrative, and then the GM needs to ensure they're regularly showing up.

Pixie

Yeah, other classes have abilities that work by default, and the DM can opt in to selecting monsters that present a greater challenge, but by and large most abilities will work on a large range of monsters. With a feature like favored enemy, that's reversed. I forget who was asking about options for seeking revenge on a specific character in PF, but I recall the situation being similar: any such options pale beside ones that let you wreak havoc not only on your intended enemy but on many others.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener That's generally true for well run games. Collaborate on the story.

@Pixie Good point. Favored enemy is far more specific and does flip that opponent selection on it's head.

doppelgreener

That's true! It's very desirable to do that. But ranger is unusual in how much its power level depends on this plus GM management and cooperation.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener Which is problematic for AL campaigns where the opponents are predetermined.

doppelgreener

16:20

Right! For most features, "it doesn't work" is a remarkable exception. For a ranger, "it works" is the remarkable exception.

@ColinGross yeah, for AL there will be large swathes of the features being on or off (mostly off)

But then just don't play a ranger in AL I guess, or pick one of the highly relevant types.

Colin Gross

@doppelgreener That requires you reading the adventure ahead of time... which you may not be able to as you don't know what the GM is running all the time.

For the hardcovers like Out of the Abyss... or HotDQ.. sure.. it's a whole book and you could select a relevant opponent.

For the smaller sessions where you just know the tier it's roulette. Sure hope the boss lands on "giant"

Pixie

I'm kind of concerned about my vanilla M20 cleric because Turn Undead seems to be considered a major feature of the class, which is not something the class expansion I'm using revises. To put this in perspective, the shaman class another player is using swaps out Turn Undead for access to druid spells up to level 4. I'm always going to have to make sure there are enough undead to be turned, basically.

But then, if it's an issue, I can allow the player to swap it for something they like better, so it's not a big deal, I think.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross I'd honestly rather see a giant land on the boss.

Colin Gross

@Pixie Good point. Clerics have favored enemy chosen for them.

@Rubiksmoose I'm entertained.

Pixie

Yeah. It's nice to have this kind of point buy option available though, so we can just throw it out if it's unfun. The player mostly wants to be a healer, so it's not really needed.

Mike Q

16:35

Rocks fall on PCs -> PCs die
PCs fall on rocks -> PCs die
PCs fall on PCs -> ???

Colin Gross

@MikeQ Hilarity ensues?

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ depends. Are they micro ATX?

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose I think it more depends on the architecture.... were they power pcs? or maybe.. more risc-y?

Maximillian

Clearly gravity is wielding the PC as an improvised weapon when dropping on the other PC, so that's at least a -4 to hit. Since the PC is ammunition, if they miss hitting the other PC there is a 50% chance they are broken and unusable.

3

Mike Q

@Maximillian Can a ranger select "gravity" as a favored enemy

Rubiksmoose

16:39

@Maximillian To be fair, if they were Macs they would have started that way [sick burn]

(jk everyone I have nothing against Apple)

NautArch

Weird thing with dndbeyond on shapechanger vs antimagic question. The barghest links the word Polymorph to the spell, but most others do not...

nitsua60

@Pixie Friendship is Magic, after all =)

NautArch

@nitsua60 my daughter still isn't a huge pony fan.

Mike Q

That's ok, being huge has a lot of penalties

NautArch

@MikeQ ohnoes.

Mike Q

16:51

Although the use of "still" suggests that your daughter may eventually become a huge sized pony fan and take a -2 penalty to AC and attack rolls. Hopefully there's a decent Strength and Constitution boost as part of the change.

With a -12 penalty to Stealth checks, she will have a difficult time with hide-and-go-seek

GreySage

@MikeQ But she'll crush red-rover

NautArch

@MikeQ She's more of a party face than combat focused.

Mike Q

Oh that should be -8 to Stealth actually

A gargantuan pony fan would have a -12

Luke Sommers

17:28

I'm alive!

GreySage

@LukeSommers Huzzah!

Were you not alive recently?

Luke Sommers

I was dead for a lil' bit.

GreySage

@LukeSommers Are you sure you're actually alive and not undead then?

Luke Sommers

@GreySage Oh man, you're right...

Maximillian

Or are you a living creature that simply is penalized by the sun and positive energy?

Luke Sommers

17:32

Race idea: Tardigrade. You are immortal.

Maximillian

Drawback: The size scale system doesn't even cover how small you are.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian -20 to hit, +20 to AC

Maximillian

The good news is dragons are going to have to take some serious time thinking about how you can be harmed, if at all.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian That is, if they can find you.

Maximillian

I think it's safe to say Tardigrade sized adventuring gear will have specialty item costs.

But they have manipulators on the end of every limb, don't they? So they can at least nab the rules for four armed.

GreySage

17:40

@Maximillian Fortunately Tardigrade sized currency has a great exchange rate.

Maximillian

It is recommended that a Tardigrade adventurer ride on another party member due to the relatively low move speed.

Luke Sommers

Tardigrade quadruple wielder fighter

If they want to move fast, put them on the shaft of an arrow and shoot it at the enemy

@Maximillian They have 8 legs, so they can use 6 weapons

Maximillian

The damage scale bottoms out at 1, so that's actually a help given the size.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian Does to-hit chance scale?

Maximillian

I'm not sure....

Though for party healing and wellness, it's nice to have someone in the party who can inspect wounds/parasites/infections/etc from a scale of about half a millimeter.

Luke Sommers

17:47

Speed: N/A, must be moved by something or someone

GreySage

@Maximillian He can fight infections on their own turf.

Luke Sommers

8

Q: Does Size Affect AC?

I have been playing 3.5 for 6 years now and am trying out 5e. Does size affect AC in 5e? In 3.5 a tiny creature would get a bonus to their AC for being smaller, while a huge creature would get a penalty to their AC for being larger. Is this rule still around in this edition?

This may help us

Size: Minute

Speed: 5 feet

Maximillian

Maybe it would be more fair to play a 5x5 foot swarm of Tardigrades.

Colin Gross

They laugh microscopically.

Luke Sommers

laughs microscopically

Maximillian

17:53

Character name: "The entire civilization of X"

Luke Sommers

Name: Lots of us

Maximillian

"Yes, I am the chosen speaker for our people and I will interact with your party."

Luke Sommers

This would be amazing

Maximillian

"I hate party votes, because there's a couple million of him and five of us."

Luke Sommers

The Tardigrade ambassador

It would technically be a medium sized creature?

GreySage

17:55

I have a player who is determined to one day play as a swarm of gnomes in a trenchcoat.

Maximillian

The rules are a little weird depending on if it's a swarm of tiny or diminutive creatures.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian Diminutive isn't in 5e, is it?

Maximillian

I've played 5E once, so I can't speak for that.

Most of my knowledge is 3.5/PF

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian Ah. In 5e, I believe its Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, and Gargantuan.

@Maximillian Also It would probably be a swarm of fine creatures

Maximillian

"Alright party, ready up for combat. Orcs in the next room" Tiny tardigrade army lines up in entire army legions in their five foot square, shield and spearmen formations, bow men, siege artillery. Yet they still are stuck with swarm rules, only able to damage things inside their swarm.

War chant gets going, spear ends being tapped on the ground in rhythm.

"This is a big deal for him isn't it?" "Hey, don't knock his people."

Luke Sommers

17:59

Imagine Tardigrade squadrons though, They travel as one being but can split off into several Tiny-sized swarms

Maximillian

"Party! Our people wish to inform you that in this vast dungeon, we have captured several 'spiders' as you call them and we have made them into formidable warbeasts!"

Luke Sommers

YES

Maximillian

Okay, I can see opportunities for this as a viable character.

Luke Sommers

Cosmo Sheldrake - Tardigrade Song

►

Maximillian

But yes, character names would need to be in the format of like "The principality of" "The kingdom of" "The duchy of" "The grand armada of"... etc.

Pixie

18:01

@nitsua60 Precisely! I think everyone in my group likes FiM, so I can only imagine the groans. :P

Luke Sommers

The Grand Armada of Fovos

Was not expecting the Tardigrade Song to be that good

Pixie

Weird, it told me that timed out and didn't post.

Luke Sommers

Strange

GreySage

I saw it

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian There's not really a way to make it balanced, is there?

Maximillian

18:12

This is a purely silly exploration and isn't balanced at all.

Luke Sommers

"In their study published today in the journal Scientific Reports, the researchers conclude that the only way the tardigrades could be wiped out is if Earth’s oceans are boiled away. They looked at three potential space-related disasters that could accomplish this devastating end: an impact from a massive asteroid, a supernova from a large star, or gamma radiation hitting Earth."

Also, what if, as a swarm, they looked like a giant Tardigrade?

Maximillian

They're still a swarm.

Luke Sommers

I know, just for flavor.

Or they act like the school of fish in Finding Nemo, acting things out?

Maximillian

Even the most basic of square movements is hearlded by extremely tiny war banners being hoisted and horns informing legions to march.

Luke Sommers

Instead of horses, spiders like you said, each with a legion of Water Bears on their backs

Mike Q

18:19

@LukeSommers I've been hoping to run a mini-campaign where the players are monsters living in a dungeon, and "Swarm of ___" would be an option

Maximillian

A druid dropping creeping doom would be their nightmare.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian Would it though? They wouldn't die

kviiri

Apocalypse World has the Macaluso, for those who want to play a character who's actually many people. (it's a limited edition playbook for 1e)

doppelgreener

@Maximillian that's a lotta tardigrades

kviiri

Then again, every AW character has the upgrade option "make a second character" so...

Luke Sommers

18:20

This is reminding me of the movie "Meet Dave".

Colin Gross

@LukeSommers Asteroid might not do it. There's a self-seeding effect on planets when they eject crust material into space.

Luke Sommers

@ColinGross "If any of these events boiled away Earth’s oceans, even the tardigrades would eventually perish without any source of food or water or air."

They do need water, but they can go into a state where they stop their bodily functions cell by cell. If they come out of that state, their cells will use water again and they need it.

Colin Gross

@LukeSommers The self seeding effect is that crust material falls back to the planet over the course of millions of years. Oceans reform... crust material re-seeds. Usually the discussion is microbes, but maybe tardigrades handle desiccation and reconstitution just as well.

Maximillian

@doppelgreener It's made for a fun thought experiment.

Luke Sommers

@ColinGross "As a tun, a tardigrade can survive for decades or even longer." Nowhere close to millions of years.

Colin Gross

18:31

@LukeSommers a million years is longer than decades

possibly "even longer"

Maximillian

"Kevin is the oldest elder of our people." "Yeah he's like in his thirties."

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian That's as a tun, the curled-up-cells-basically-frozen state. If they rehydrate, they can live longer

@ColinGross According to Miller, a few researchers believe some species of tardigrades might even be able to survive desiccation for up to a century. Yet the average lifespan of a (continuously hydrated) tardigrade is rarely longer than a few months.

Found this too

Colin Gross

Looks like the articles are referencing this paper: doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2008.06.048

Luke Sommers

@ColinGross They also only tested 2 species, there are over 1000

Colin Gross

Which was looking at vacuum and unfiltered solar radiation. The self seeding effect is large chunks of regolith with organisms trapped/shielded inside being ejected into the future orbital path. So, unfiltered solar radiation isn't as limiting an issue.

Luke Sommers

18:38

@ColinGross Got it. Could water be trapped in the pieces?

Maximillian

Hmm. I don't think any dragons have filtered or unfiltered solar radiation as a breath weapon, so probably not a concern

Colin Gross

@LukeSommers it'd be frozen, why?

Luke Sommers

@ColinGross I'm just thinking, since we don't know how long they can survive as a tun.

Colin Gross

@Maximillian Radiant damage breath weapon? There's an interesting though.

Luke Sommers

@Maximillian Time for some homebrew

Solar Dragon

Colin Gross

18:40

@LukeSommers Has to be mated with a lithium dragon to operate at night?

Luke Sommers

@ColinGross Amazing

Radiant and Necrotic damage dragons would be cool

Mike Q

Or neurotoxin breath that deals psychic damage

Luke Sommers

Dragon with ultimate Vicious Mockery

Tardigrades and Traps, a D&D Podcast

What about a campaign based on music? Each town or village is based on a certain piece. The plot could be based off of Edvard Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King", progressively getting more difficult and the like

Rubiksmoose

Pictures at an exhibition would work somewhat as well.

doppelgreener

@Maximillian "Thirty weeks for a tardigrade! Can you believe that? Kevin? ... Kevin? .... Steve's the speaker now."

Luke Sommers

18:54

@doppelgreener The tardigrades have a funeral pyre going.

Mike Q

@LukeSommers That's a nice motif, although you'll probably need more than that

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ Well yeah, I'm just having odd thoughts.

Mike Q

I always have odd thoughts

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ Hi, welcome to ADHD, how ya doin'?

"While tardigrades are some of the toughest organisms on earth, do not purposely expose them to radiation, extreme temperatures, or extreme conditions in general. They can usually survive it, but it isn't good for them." Do people have pet tardigrades and just throw them in weird situations?

Maximillian

"Kevin is on vacation today, I'm the interm Kevin-speaker. What can the kingdom do for you, party leader?"

Luke Sommers

19:00

@Maximillian So the speaker is basically HR?

kviiri

@doppelgreener Excellent coverage on Ranger features. I agree with these assessments

Luke Sommers

"Scientists have recently discovered the world’s first known immortal animal. A jellyfish species named Turritopsis nutricula. The jellyfish was originally from the Caribbean, but has since spread all over the world’s oceans.

The jellyfish’s secret to genetic immortality lies in it reverting back to a younger stage in its life. It enters an earlier polyp stage after it mates, and by doing so, completely restarts its lifecycle."

Combine this with a Tardigrade and literally nothing can kill it.

kviiri

Well, entropy is a powerful force

Luke Sommers

Boy do I have a song for you

Entropic Time (Backwards Billy Joel Parody) | A Capella Science

►

KorvinStarmast

19:33

@doppelgreener I think that matt has a fair complaint

Sir Cinnamon

Agreed

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast "don't root them out" doesn't mean "don't close them when you come across them", and it being answered doesn't make it not a question that's now off topic. closure was fine.

the fact that kind of question is off topic by current policy means those kinds of questions get closed, regardless of when they were posted. this also means stuff doesn't become immune to being closed just because it was asked a while ago.

doppelgreener

21:07

Bear in mind the post isn't getting deleted or anything, just closed to new answers

Mike Q

Ah, those pesky mind bears are always causing trouble on the site

Yuuki

So I was discussing class balance with some friends and was hit with the following line: "Classes are totally balanced. When the wizard hits someone with a Fireball, they should be rolling Will saves to not get PTSD for burning someone alive."

I don't even know what to do with that.

Mike Q

That assumes the wizard has a high enough morality stat

GreySage

@Yuuki Murderhobos tend to be psychopaths, problem solved

Mike Q

And as we all know, adventurers in D&D have zero morality and are thus immune to shame

Yuuki

21:14

I mean, first of all, that's not even part of any ruleset so you can't really consider that as part of balance.

Because one table might run it that way and another table might not.

I dunno, I was bringing up my "I wanna try a hybrid system with 4e and maybe Fate" idea and they vehemently hate 4e with the passion of a thousand suns.

Mike Q

When the fighter hits someone with a sword, they should be rolling reflex saves to not drop the sword because they are sweaty

doppelgreener

@MikeQ Mine help keep me organised.

I have a symbiotic relationship with my mind bears.

Mike Q

When the druid polymorphs via wild shape, everyone has to make a Fortitude save to deal with the smell

@Yuuki I assumed they were joking... What system do they think they're playing?

Luke Sommers

@MikeQ Wildshape into a fleet of tardigrades. A colony. An armada.

A smack, if you will. Perhaps a gaggle. Maybe a cauldron? A cackle. A conspiracy of tardigrades.

Mike Q

I don't think any edition allows wildshaping into multiple creatures

Or wildshaping into mind bears

Luke Sommers

21:27

@MikeQ Perhaps just one then. You'd be invincible.

Also those are all actual groups of animals. A group of lemurs is a conspiracy, cauldron of bats, and a cackle of hyenas.

A prickle of porcupines or a turmoil of porpoises? A pitying of turtle doves.

Yuuki

@MikeQ Well, we were talking about the various D&D systems (and Pathfinder).

I mentioned that I had heard 4e had better balance between martials and magic.

Luke Sommers

A mustering of storks.

Yuuki

And that 5e may have reverted that balancing somewhat.

Mike Q

@LukeSommers A game of thrones, clash of kings, storm of swords, dance of dragons, etc.

Yuuki

A sloth of bears is still the best.

Luke Sommers

21:31

@MikeQ Might I offer you a puggle?

Sir Cinnamon

@MikeQ A chamber of secrets, an order of phoenix, a prisoner of azkaban

Yuuki

Is it a group of bears? Is it a sloth made of bears? Who knows?!

Mike Q

@Yuuki 5 bears = 1 voltron bear = 1 sloth

Yuuki

A voltron of robots.

BESW

An argument of wizards.

Luke Sommers

21:32

Oh dear, new enemy. What's the CR of 5 bears forming Voltron?

Yuuki

A Place Beyond the Pines.

Luke Sommers

@BESW A cacophony of barbarians

Mike Q

@Yuuki But yes, this is true. 4e treated magic differently than 3.x and 5e

Yuuki

I imagine that's why so many people hate it.

Luke Sommers

I'd just like you all to know that a baby swan is called a flapper.

BESW

21:36

Yuuki

@LukeSommers And an adult swan is called an CENSORED.

Luke Sommers

@Yuuki I think you mean a demon's birthday present

A_S00

Hot Network Questions here we come rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128815/…

GreySage

@A_S00 Those were some very fast upvotes

Mike Q

My understanding is that it went like this:
3.x: Casters are gods, martials are muggles. There is nothing resembling class balance.
4e: All classes, martial or caster, are demigods. Classes have comparable resources, and excel at different roles.
5e: Back to 3.x framework, except casters are demigods with limited resources, and martials have limited access to their 4e features.

@Yuuki The complaints that I've heard were that the 4e classes were too similar in function

The Oracle

21:55

4

Q: Is there a way for non-mods to spot "new" accounts that are actually suspended users trying to dodge a ban?

This question just got asked, then closed. I saw it in the Close Votes review queue, took a look, and saw that it was indeed close-worthy (on the merits of the question, not the querent), so I slapped on a VTC. Then I took a look at the querent's profile, and saw that they were an unregistered ...

discussion account-suspension

Pixie

The "rocks fall, everyone dies" question brings back warm, fuzzy memories. Although I never encountered it in any context mentioned in the question or the answer, it was in common enough usage by the time I was 14 or 15 that it became an in-joke with a friend in I in some silly freeform RP. I think she may have introduced it, and I think I might have assumed it was a reference to the ending of KoF '99, in which rocks fall and... quite a few people are implied to die. :P

trogdor

I would be so mad if that were used on me

in any game other than,.. say Paranoia or Great Ork Gods

Pixie

22:10

I might like to try a high-fatality dungeon some day, but only with full knowledge beforehand. It's not a kind thing to pull on anybody who hasn't given full buy-in.

trogdor

@nitsua60 ah ok,.... weird. you would think they would,... make a term for that,... oh wait it's tainted by the horrible horrible 4e :P

@Pixie fair,.. the key to me using those two examples is implicit buy in

or at least expected buy in

Pixie

Yeah, definitely.

trogdor

both of those games involve going in knowing your character,... who is also probably a backstabbing sneak against their whole party anyway, is probably going to die beforehand

Pixie

The context of the recurring joke in our freeform was that one of my characters was very, very bad at telling his son bedtime stories.

trogdor

lol

Yuuki

22:17

@Pixie Prince of Persia?

Pixie

@Yuuki Sorry, I'm not familiar with Prince of Persia.

Yuuki

Well, specifically Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (2000-ish).

Pixie

@trogdor Ah, as far as 4e terminology goes: one perspective I have encountered, and I think it's fair, is that 4e kind of pulled the curtain too far back for a lot of players' tastes. Although 4e is a game, as any tabletop system is, some people are alienated by language that emphasizes that fact. If you call something a "daily," for example, it's impossible not to think of it in very gamey terms. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it's a preference thing.

Yuuki

It's basically an adventure platformer but the framing device is that the game is being told as a story by the eponymous Prince.

Every time you die, the Prince kinda goes "wait, that's not how that happened" and backtracks.

trogdor

@Pixie that is fair too

Yuuki

22:20

Namely because the character you control is the Prince.

Pixie

@Yuuki Ohh, I see. I knew they were platformers, and I think I watched a friend play a bit of the Gamecube one years back, but I didn't know about the framing device. That's pretty amusing.

trogdor

@Yuuki did it turn out he was telling that story to his kid?

(I played it but never beat it, and it was a while ago)

Shalvenay

22:52

@Pixie yeah, it creates another thing that you have to circumlocute in order to say, have your characters have an IC discussion about tactics

Pixie

@Shalvenay Yeah. The impression I get from 4e is that its choice of this type of language was consistent and seemed to reinforce its design principles, so it feels like a solid technique to me. Just, given the reaction of the public and the different direction 5e has taken, I can also understand why they wouldn't directly port certain terms. (I think that public reaction wound up being partly half-formed opinion based upon first reaction to that type of language, which is unfortunate.)

trogdor

23:25

In my personal opinion there was a little bit too much half cocked criticism of 4e yeah

That's why I mentioned not using a 4e term in the way I did specifically

I don't feel like the decision to leave 4e terms out was at all due to it not fitting in with 5th design

I mean,.... To be frank 5th design doesn't seem coherent enough to me for that particular consideration

But I may just be a little biased/bitter about it

trogdor

23:54

It really really does seem to me like they studiously avoided mentioning 4e in any subtext even when they took the few mechanical ideas they did from it though

nitsua60

@trogdor I don't think that's just bias or bitterness... 5e's definitely a bit of a platypus.

trogdor

@nitsua60 I definitly agree with that

But what I mean is specifically in tying 4e and 5th together on a string and wondering why 5th was es away any connections it has to 4e so vigorously

It wouldn't be such an issue for me if it were not for all the people who brutally criticized 4e at the time for being different, plus the fact that 5th still took some ideas from 4e but desperately wanted no one to notice

It's a weird dynamic for me to witness

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