@NautArch I've seen animate objects shred hill giants and frost giants. Wizard casting was level 13, but did not upcast; left it at level 5.

@KorvinStarmast You've seen me play?! I shredded a hill giant with it.

He used ball bearings from a bag of ball bearings ... tiny object. :)

@KorvinStarmast were they silvered? If so, it was definitely me.

Nah, it's in a Tier 3 game I get to play about every other Monday. Champion fighter.

@NautArch We are now heading to take on Fire Giants and our Wizard left the game. We have a gloom stalker ranger as a replacement as of last session. (I'll get a peek at what Hal might look like if he survives to high level ...) so no more Animate Objects buckshot for us.

All I want for Christmas is a displacer cloak ...

@KorvinStarmast I rarely use it anymore because managing 10 creatures is a pain and it can be an encounter/table killer.

@NautArch At a RL table I can see it being a little clunky. On roll20 the guy had a nice macro set up to roll the attacks/damage, made short work of it all.

@KorvinStarmast We also use flanking. And I have dissonant whispers. It's a frightening combo for a DM.

Flanking changes combat a lot

yeah, the game i'm running as DM does NOT use it.

it's too easy to get the advantage effects triggered

My nephew added flanking, and our combats were a hell of a lot more complicated, particularly when his monsters with DD/misty step attacked in swarms. Yikes!

That's a pretty succinct way to explain why I'm not a huge fan of 5e: every advantage you gain is exactly the same as any other advantage (and some abilities proc on Advantage). Much more a fan of Pathfinder or other systems where you get to add numbers, so advantages are distinct and having one advantage doesn't override all other ones

@Delioth Adds to the calculation time.

@NautArch maybe they have it as "Midnight Riot"?

@Delioth Of course, the issue with 3rd edition based games is that it's fairly trivial to stack up bonuses to one thing and drub everyone using it

@ColinGross Haven't had an issue with that, though I probably have way too much mental addition practice. Also, I tend towards playing with electronic assistance (roll20 or automagic sheets)

@Delioth As someone experienced with Pathfinder, I'm in the opposite boat and prefer 5e's simpler methods. All the addition and subtraction often results in bogged-down gameplay, and the numbers sort of explode at higher levels. They can also result in some crazy imbalances.

@BerislavLopac yasss! Put a hold on it.

@Delioth I liked the 3.5 rules as implemented in software... but then I'm limited by the software. It's definitely a trade off.

For example, a medium-high level rogue could have a +20 reflex and +5 fort and will save, making them virtually immune to explosions but prone to any sort of poison or mind effect.

@MikeQ Yeah, like getting crit range down to a roll of 6 and stacking for multiple attacks.

@KorvinStarmast We rarely had monsters getting it. Maybe it's just the DM, but we even didn't use it as often as we'd like.

@ColinGross Pathfinder did help to fix this, (almost) none of the crit threat alterations stack

@Delioth That's one bug squashed. What's the min crit range for 4e?

With player characters, pathfinder doesn't really have an expected bounds per level in terms of offense and defensive stats

@MikeQ See, I see that as a feature rather than a bug. Defined strengths and defined weaknesses

@Delioth Yeah but it gets really swingy depending on the build. You could have two PCs of the same resources and level. One has +21 to hit and 39 AC, the other has +11 to hit and 23 AC

From a challenge design standpoint, it becomes a headache, and instead of asking "What should the monster's average damage be" you end up asking "Which characters are immune to this monster and which characters will get one-hit-KO'd"

@Rubiksmoose a Wizard 9/Fighter 11 with Tenser's and Haste, though :)

They might not explicitly say it, but there are definitely expected bounds. There are some compilations (a really nice table) that compares expected values of CR enemies (from "Creating Monsters" in the DM guide) to values that are pretty much "good", "better", and "worthless to go higher"

@ColinGross 1: on a 20 only XD

@Zachiel There's a feat that doubles the crit range in 3.5 and 4e though?

@Delioth Right, there are expected bounds for designing monsters per CR. But that goes out the window when the party's AC varies from 15 to 35 and their HP varies from 30 to 150

@NautArch excellent, hope you enjoy it!

Isn't improved critical still a think in pathfinder?

@NautArch That would be a very frightening thing attack-wise.

Also, the swingy imbalance can always happen in any system that allows options for optimization. One character may make nonsensical choices that are definitively bad for their combat prowess, and another might optimize the hell out of that

@ColinGross Yes, but the max crit range is still 15-20. Crit range effects don't stack.

@ColinGross A guy I know got to a max range of 5 or 6, can't remember. I know he was playing Avenger into Paragon Tier.

(Maybe epic)

@ColinGross Yes, but it doesn't stack with any other critical threat range effects (exception: Swashbuckler level 20 increases threat range by 1 after any other effects, so you can get 14-20)

@MikeQ Even that's pretty nuts.

@MikeQ well the player with 30 HP is asking for it. (In my campaign, it's me. I think I go down at least once per session.)

@ColinGross Also, if it isn't a nat 20 the attack roll still has to hit. And then you have to confirm the crit

@Delioth Probabilities on that are still more than favorable.

(e.g. if I only have a +10 against an opponent with AC 28, rolling a 15 that's in my crit threat range isn't even a critical threat, because the attack wouldn't have hit. Even if I did roll an 18 for a crit threat, I'd need to roll another 18+ to actually get the crit damage)

And thus, while the probability is good for your first attack as it always is, your third or fourth are much, much less likely to crit even if you roll well

@Delioth For existing hits, its a decent probability to multiply damage. So you optimize for crit range, even a missed crit is still a hit.

@ColinGross There is no maximum crit multiplier. It depends on the weapon, and possibly some class features or feats

I think the highest theoretical multiplier is x5 or x6

@MikeQ No less than 2x ?

Crits are multipliers, including flat bonuses. Default is 2x, some are 3x or 4x. Only Fighter level 20 increases the multiplier, and there's no 18-20 weapon with a 3x (nor is there a 4x weapon with a threat range other than 20)

@Delioth Cavaliers. And possibly also gunslingers, sometimes?

@ColinGross Technically speaking, Butterfly Sting crits for 1x.

@Yuuki it crits for no extra damage?

@ColinGross You could get 1x if a weapon is unable to crit, and roll a natural 20. I think.

@ColinGross You forsake the extra damage a crit would have dealt to instead let the next attack an ally lands on the foe to be an automatically confirmed crit

Yes. The feat allows you to pass your crit to someone else but it's functionally identical to you critting for 1x and then someone else critting as well.

Useful if you're using 2 weapons and want to pass the crit to your other hand that's using a x4 crit weapon, or to pass it to a raging barbarian with tons of damage to multiply

@Delioth They still have to land the hit (succeed their attack roll) though.

(Since you are your own ally)

@Yuuki Yes, this is why I stated "attack an ally lands"

Butterfly Sting is one of those things where most tables I've played at agree that it doesn't make sense for you to count as your own ally.

I'm of the opinion it does make sense - in the narrative you're exploiting an advantage to put an enemy off balance and exposed instead of directly hitting harder (and thus, you could still capitalize on that off-balance/exposed enemy with another attack)

Narrative-wise, Butterfly Sting is exclusive to worshippers of Desna and your combat skill is chiefly used to get your allies to work together.

The "exploiting an advantage" is not solely putting an enemy off-balance on your lonesome but rather that in combination with you and your ally working together.

@Yuuki Possible concept for an encounter: Team of enemies that all use Butterfly Sting. Maybe some other teamwork feats too.

If I could consider myself as an ally for Butterfly Sting, I wouldn't go TWF. I'd play a Mindblade Magus. Fish for a crit with an expanded crit range weapon form, Butterfly Sting to myself, swift action to shift my weapon into a scythe, Spellstrike with an auto-crit Shocking Grasp scythe hit.

On the original topic though, it's almost always more efficient to prioritize building for attack and/or damage instead of crit, since nearly all crit bonuses can come from a single weapon enchantment (keen) but stacking higher damage isn't quite as easy. And also a x3 or x4 crit multiplier is a lot of damage since it multiplies all your static bonuses (so 30 strength and power attack at level 12 with a two-handed x3 weapon is a flat 81 damage, before weapon enchantments or other bonuses)

I miss higher crit modifiers in 5th ed

@goodguy5 Part of me does but part of me really doesn't want to deal with crit builds.

@Delioth That's an interesting assertion. Given how many attacks / round as well? And under what conditions is it better. This is optimizing for total damage to an armored target, correct?

@Yuuki yea, I know. I was trying to think of a way to make it balanced....

@Delioth This is correct. Swashboys hit hard... once per round. They have all the same inefficiencies of core Duelist.

More attacks with larger crit range vs fewer attacks with higher damage and smaller crit range.

seems fair

@goodguy5 Long-term, the best part of crit builds are the secondary "whenever you confirm a crit" effects, and not necessarily the raw damage

@ColinGross Having a high crit range is irrelevant when you can't hit anyways. Number of attacks is wholly independent of the crit range of your attacks - number of attacks is only dependent on your Base Attack Bonus, and whether you're using Two-weapon fighting for more attacks (or something that's like TWF, like Rapid Shot, Monk's Flurry, etc)

@Delioth Or natural weapons, which are based on whether or not you have them

@MikeQ tell that to my pathfinder barbarian.

scythe build #allday

@Delioth I don't think I'm getting what you mean by that. Don't the two handed weapons also have a chance to miss?

And iterative attacks past the first take cumulative -5 penalties to the attack roll, so later attacks are vastly less likely to hit. (Natural attacks are all made at highest BAB with a penalty)

@goodguy5 I'm in a high level PF game. I have a summoner. My eidolon consistently out-damages the barbarian, who is a crit build.

@Delioth That's 4e?

@ColinGross That's 3.x and Pathfinder. I don't know about 4e

@MikeQ well.... comparing Summoners to Barbarians is unfair.

@Delioth gotcha

one is objectively better.

@goodguy5 even after the nerf?

but even so, getting that 4X every once in a while.... woo buddy

@goodguy5 Not really. I'm giving an example of where a crit build doesn't monopolize role of highest damage output.

@Zachiel not 100% sure. I didn't keep up with it after that

My summoner summons barbarians. Fight me. (just kidding I don't play PF any more)

^

But my point was that, for barbarians, your job is to do damage. So, if you're taking crit talents, they should be damage crit talents.

Sure, that's the vanilla concept. But "Take away the enemy's next turn" is generally better than "Do an extra 1d6 damage"

@goodguy5 Barbarians do enough damage as-is once they've got Power attack (in all honesty, any melee damage dealer that doesn't rely on Sneak attack with Power Attack is adequate at doing their job)

@goodguy5 Hey buddy, don't assume things. My barbarian is an accountant.

@Rubiksmoose ha. I didn't know pavel changed his name and avatar

@goodguy5 hah! I'm not sure that you didn't just insult poor SPavel there ;)

The joke was very much in his style.

@goodguy5 After hearing this, I'm also changing accountants

@SPavel On account of that?

@Zachiel That, and other incidents, too many to count

@SPavel My guy is great. Gormt "Billy" Stonethrower is amazing. And the only thing he pillages is the federal tax code.

@Rubiksmoose I'm actually looking for more of a metaphysical hyperbeing

As someone partially infused with the concept of infinity, mortal arithmetic cannot adequately describe my tax obligations; to merely quantify their bigness would be doing them a disservice

@SPavel He does yoga, does that count?

@Rubiksmoose I would prefer someone who is yoga

@SPavel Come meet my contortionist character, I'm sure you'd like her XD

"An entity called "MSE Media LLC" has filed an application to trademark "DRAGON SLAYER" in connection with fantasy novels."

@SPavel Well, just know, you are breaking poor Billy's heart here. Plus, I get a commission for recommendations.

Oh hey, I got my Sportmanship badge. :D

@Rubiksmoose nice! I just got mine recently, too.

Updoots for everyone!

@BerislavLopac I'm fond of the PC Grant novels, and would probably use Gumshoe (maybe a Bubblegumshoe hack) as the base system for an RPG in that setting.

A big shift, of course, is that it's a single-character series and most RPGs are built for group play. There is a twosies build for Gumshoe though, Gumshoe One-2-One.

They really missed on not calling it Gumpairofshoes.

Or just Gumshoes.

@Yuuki Gumrollforshoes

You don't want no shoes in your gums. They hurt.

I'm reminded I need to buy the Dungeon World bundle on Bundle of Holding. I hear good things about it, I wanna browse the rulebook...

@Maximillian IIRC the DW rules are free. The only thing you get from the rulebook is formatting and illustrations... and, ok, a tingling feeling of having helped the author.

Fate would also work for PC Grant, but nothing specifically recommends it beyond the ease of use.

Well there's other stuff included and it's not terribly expensive.

@Zachiel Gums in your shoes aren't super either.

I keep forgetting to check Bundle of Holding. Every now and then they have stuff I want!

@Maximillian I feel you. I recently missed a game I liked on GOG.

I've got Bundle emailing me with new bundles, and GOG emails when things on my wishlist go on sale.

(Doesn't help when GOG adds new games I want, but video games aren't exactly a high priority for me anyway.)

Unfortunately, I don't check my e-mail that often.

Email is the lifeblood of a self-employed designer.

@BerislavLopac While I haven't designed a game for PC Grant in particular, I do have some experience doing that kind of work and would be happy to brainstorm with you.

@NautArch yeah OP's answer to my comment on the feature-tracking question really raises more questions than answers.

(I'm catching up on Furthest Station and The Hanging Tree right now, actually, in an attempt to get my brain to stop telling me that an "Obsidian and Blood" setting bible and GS121 adventure series is something anybody would want.)

@BESW my work e-mail is at the workplace, where I don't read my home e-mail.

@Rubiksmoose yeah, i don't really get it. It seems the problem they're experiencing is Sloppiness.

Also, I won't do like my predecessor and give my work e-mail to every mailing list out there, from DIY magazines to salami sellers.

@NautArch I'm also sort of confused how 1/2 is unclear for example. Like, unless they have half a use left it is pretty clear they have "one out of two" uses left.

@Rubiksmoose yup, i was going to say that :)

@Zachiel "salami sellers" I feel like this is (or should be) a euphamism.

(Now that the old coworker ended his stay in the office, my direct boss receives a copy of all the mails, he's going mad)

@Rubiksmoose it sure is an allitteration