@GreySage gotcha. I do think having some RPG knowledge helped me dig through stuff. However, collating poorly formatted or archived mail threads or web archives from 2007 does require skills beyond just google.
@ColinGross That is interesting, but I'm not sure what prompted you to tell me that. I meant that there are several answers that just say "BURN THE TAG/QUESTION ARCHTYPE" and they all have upvotes, so that the answers that actually offer alternatives are pushed further down the page.
@goodguy5 Decent. I'm not in a very good shape - one of the downsides to always having had a healthy diet and a natural predisposition towards slimness (read: inefficient digestion) is that I never really had to exercise to keep my weight in check. Which conveniently has deprived me of the other advantages of regular exercise too.
But I'm trying to learn to do this with some regularity now.
I'm not set up at work to run the numbers, but the damage output for a Fighter 5/ Rogue 3 beats the damage output of either over time if you allow SA with a great sword
"So... If I can choose Strength with my finesse weapon what is the purpose of having an explicit limitation to certain weapons that can use Dexterity rather than Strength?"
@ColinGross Hmm, that was not how I read it, but I could see that interpretation. May be worth commenting for a clarification. But given how the Q&A has gone, they are wanting to limit the current rules and not add to them (or remove something they added at their table)
@goodguy5 SA used to be "backstab" and it was a damage multiplier. Which was pretty nuts, but the downside was you had to actually stab... and play a rogue.
We haven't had a real combat yet, but the party I'm running is using my house rule: "Crit damage minimum = the die used" (8 damage on a 1d8, 12 for 1d12, etc)
But i've got to say, at level 17 vengeance paladin with GWM, PAM, and Sentinel I now get at least 3 attacks, sometimes 4 and with Haste 5 with (if I hit with my +3 weapon) a minimum damage of 15 per hit.
@ColinGross To be honest, I don't mind missing on a 1. What I do mind is dropping my weapon on my foot, stabbing myself in the big toe, and then kicking my sword 20 feet away on a 1.
and I like the swinginess of it. Sometimes I can turn a bad roll into a great roll. Sometimes my okay roll just isn't good enough. It's the idea of you know how to do something, sometimes you do that thing really well, but sometimes you just muff it.
I do as well, but the stuff I've done for a living or gotten really good at... I don't even think about the simple stuff anymore. I haven't messed it up in so long.
@Slagmoth If I can choose Strength with my finesse weapon what is the purpose of having an explicit limitation to certain weapons that can use Dexterity rather than Strength? The purpose is to allow more, not fewer, build options for players.
@Slagmoth What's broken that needs fixing? The answer to your last sentence in the question is "base weapon damage is the limiter" but that does not address your larger concern. We had an answer that showed how little base weapon damage matters as a rogue goes up in level, but I can't figure out where it is ... and also .... see Swashbuckler rogue.
There is definitely a balance issue. If their attack stats are the same, rogues and fighters have similar damage potential. But strength can be raised above 20 by several magical means (potions and belts of Giant Strength, for example), while Dex can only be similarly boosted by a legendary item.
@kviiri That story is a nice example of how I imagine retired high-level wizards spend their time. They're done saving (or destroying) the world, so they've dedicated their energy toward pedantic legal debates with the forces of nature itself.
At higher levels, rogues may need to use Giant Strength items to keep their attacks competitively balanced with those of Fighters and other martial characters. If you cut off sneak attack with strength, you are declaring that these items are not usable by rogues.
Not true. The additional bonus is not only to damage, but to the probability to hit. By increasing your hit chance, you multiplicatively increase the expected value of your damage.
Yup. The rogue cannot "pump" dexterity above 20 without a manual. While the fighter may be getting access to 21-25 scores in their attack stats from level 11 through 15.
Of course, this is all subject to DM's approval of certain magic items. But it's not exactly a rare feature of the game to have potions/belts of giant strength.
@Gandalfmeansme Sorry, at those levels, with two daggers, a rogue attacks twice no matter what. Chance to hit when Proficiency bonus is +4, +5, or +6, then add +5 for dex ... and then the rogue is attacking with advantage often ... rpg.stackexchange.com/a/99844/22566
@Gandalfmeansme Sorry, you seem to be using an exception to argue a balance rule, and No Magic Item is guaranteed to drop in any given game. (Though the str rogue finally gets a bit more "to hit" if that lucky day comes with the storm giant belt).
@Gandalfmeansme It's worth noting that the Belt of Giant Strength does not increase your base or max Strength; it just sets your Strength score to a certain number
@ColinGross as was mentioned, it would also increase your chance to-hit by some amount. likely not super impactful, given the number of ways rogues can get advantage, but still.
I never said that the rogue in question wouldn't pump Dex. Likely, the pumped it immediately, through level 6 or 8. Thus, they have all the things that a high Dex gives you. And certainly, if you don't give your characters the things that makes this unbalanced, it's balanced.
@KorvinStarmast I simply didn't like the whole idea and can't for the life of me justify using a Strength based weapon when the ability is limited to something that can use dexterity.
@Slagmoth It's not Strength based. That's the issue. All that finesse does is open the Option for dex. All weapons are strength based. maybe re read the finesse property?
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, i will likely leave it as is... I already have House-Rules for SA for melee that prevent the RA thing which my players are fine with.
@NautArch there are trade offs, of course. but a fighter gaining an additional 2d6 damage per round on top of great sword output adds up pretty quickly.
One that has the potential to do more damage with strength attacks. Like a barbarian rogue, or a rogue under the effects of a potion or belt of giant strength.
@Slagmoth to me I just don't understand why it should be changed. These rule cause no issues and changing them only serves to limit player options. Sure it can seem a bit silly I guess, but so do so many of the rules. The focus of the game should not be on making sense of the rules, but having fun.
@Slagmoth honestly though, as a DM I'd love for my players to try the RA/SA thing. I'd send a bunch of minions at them and they are going to take significantly more damage (because enemies have advantage) then they get with SA.
@Rubiksmoose I usually do the opposite for my players. They build a fire resistant blacksmith turned whatever... they're fighting fire gremlins or something at least a few times.
Yeah, I just got tired of the boxed campaign worlds... they seemed too cosmo for me. My world is more segregated and right now the elves are actually the primary antagonists.
Hit points are, in 5e, a fundamentally limited resource that one can truly regain only through consumable items, long rests or resources expended per long rest (or some interesting multiclasses). So any regen ability I'd make would similarly be limited to a certain amount or range of HP between long rests.
That is an option... one i was thinking is that HD usage was always at least half... or maybe even double value and used as a bonus action per short rest.
@Slagmoth careful replicating feats or class abilities for free. Those tend to make any players of the class slighted. Like someone got their shiny thing for free.
@Slagmoth For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your Dexterity modifier instead Dex is an option, not a requirement. The default is to use strength. Page 9 basic rules. Also in PHB.
@Slagmoth Good buddy of mine was a collegiate level fencer at William and Mary in college. he plays eldritch knight in D&D 5e. uses his str mod for attack with rapier. Sees no problem with it. FWIW, and the old verisimilitude thing.
I prefer to keep the treasure organic they find what the find... if they can't use it they can barter or find a buyer or something... gives them ample opportunity to interact and find other hooks.
I am trying to find a way to keep Schemas from being abused though, but can't find a plausible solution. What I mean by that is Player A finds a schema/recipe for a Cloak of the Bat... what way is there to prevent them simply making dozens of copies and selling them? Having trouble with that.
@NautArch Spell Scroll? That means it is only usable once... unless I implement like a recipe book similar to spellbooks but then you can copy out of that as well.
@Slagmoth Great age, though. Personality development. I somehow have time to run a business, play games, play D&D about 1/week. read and sleep. I honestly have no idea how I do it. Maybe that explains my migraines.
we have not really. There was some difficult terrain use from snowfall and marshland we had to deal with, but the frigid cold was mollified by an opportunity to get winter gear.
@NautArch yeah, I have never played in a game that utilized it much, and I always forgot in my own games. I started automating an old set of tables from 1981 AD&D and will shamelessly plug it when I find hosting.
Seems such an integral part of the setting.
I am running a tweaked version of the Sinister Secret of the Salt Marsh during Winter... which changes half the encounters in the house.
@Slagmoth I played a Pathfinder game where the GM suddenly took away our magic and threw us from a temperate climate to an Ice Age. It became kind of a slog that I didn't appreciate.
Actually, if you want to make a Trundle-ish character, I would actually look more into replicating his ult rather than his passive.
Outside of personal preference, Trundle is picked because of his ability to steal tankiness from other characters rather than any sort of regeneration ability.
