TRPG General Chat

hohenheim

10:00

How did my question end up here?

Helwar

AFAIK it happens naturally

hohenheim

This doesn't seem natural at all ...

Helwar

you mean webcode is not direct from mother nature?

hohenheim

Indeed.

Plus, all the comments (... not just mine) got deleted from the question I'm referring to, which strikes me as odd.

BESW

@hohenheim The chat has feeds‌. All Role-playing Games Meta questions are fed directly into the chat itself (as above), while everything else --mainsite questions and updates from other websites-- goes into the ticker which pops up in the upper lefthand corner whenever a new thing hits the feed.

Helwar

10:08

you see? It happens naturally :)

THe comments from your main question probably got deleted by a user with enough reputation

Tiggerous

FWIW hohenheim, I entirely agree with you on this one. Though I should state that someone better informed than I am may yet persuade me otherwise.

BESW

Deleting comments is not a reputation-based privilege. Only elected moderators and Stack employees can delete comments that are not their own.

Other users can flag comments for the attention of elected moderators to consider deleting.

Reasons comments might get deleted are enumerated here.

Helwar

Oh good to know

also @doppelgreener said he did it so the mistery is over :)

BESW

You can peruse all the reputation-based privileges here.

kviiri

@hohenheim One of the purposes of this chat is to discuss the state of the site in a casual, informal manner - Meta is the formal meeting room where the actual decisions and "serious" discussion is made. It's important for people here to know when there's an issue they would like to help with, which is why The Oracle posts meta links here.

BESW

10:15

And the help includes information about elected moderators.

kviiri

Another reason why Meta should feature prominently on chat is that it's sometimes tempting to try to make site policy here, as opposed to the more formal style of Meta, especially over minor issues. But Meta is far better visible to the users who don't use chat (I believe we have a fairly large number of active-ish members who seldom or never visit the chat)

Having a gentle push towards Meta discussions helps with that :)

BESW

Mar 4 '14 at 11:54, by BESW

I hereby declare that the first chat user to rightfully suggest a policy or use discussion be turned into a meta post will receive One Free Re-Roll, redeemable in any rpg.se chat game run by myself or other participating GMs.

kviiri

@BESW Is that policy meta-approved?

(I fully approve of it myself!)

BESW

I will change my user name to Meta, and approve of it.

Helwar

talking about visiting the chat... how does one enter the chat? I have a beautiful link someone left in one of my questions that I have to find and click every time I want to come in here... If there is a button somewhere to go to the chat I haven't seen it

BESW

10:23

On the toolbar at the top of every mainsite page, on the far right, there's a speech bubble icon with horizontal lines.

Click that, and the ensuing drop-down menu will include a "chat" link that takes you to the rpg.se chat nexus page, listing all the active chat rooms associated with Role-playing Games.

Helwar

oh thanks!

Tiggerous

Or, it's also in the footer at the bottom of every page (left hand side column).

BESW

But that means scrolling down. [pules about effort]

kviiri

I think I first stumbled to chat through the footer

Helwar

it's quite hidden anyway.... I suppose that's because chat is not the main focus of SE but...

BESW

10:30

Yeah, chat's definitely a third-class space by design.

kviiri

"Web page footers, full of useless links only one in a hundred will see and almost none of them will click... wut, this site has a CHAT?"

Tiggerous

For quite a while I also struggled to re-find it, having first been alerted to its extistence by a comment.

kviiri

@BESW While I advocate the visibility and openness of the chat by principle, I'm attracted to the sense of intimacy the chat has (no doubt largely because it's a poorly advertised feature of a non-major stack).

BESW

The personal qualities of this chat is... not shared by many of the other Stack chats I've visited.

kviiri

I rarely visit other chats, but that's the impression I've gotten.

BESW

10:35

Some are crowded and noisy with everyone throwing shinies into the void hoping to pick up stars for the bar with their clever memes and one-liners.

Others are so very small and intimate that new users are technically welcomed but in practice feel like a third wheel.

Helwar

@BESW had to read that a couple of times to get the gist of it

BESW

(As @trogdor said earlier, we need to watch that our chat doesn't become a swirl of opaque self-references that new users can have explained but won't actually feel part of. I've considered removing jeff sometime soon for that reason, so it's less an official staple of the chat's ambience.)

trogdor

mmm

kviiri

@BESW I don't think that's too bad - it took me several years of using the chat to notice that we even have room tags.

trogdor

yeah that was the exact issue I was referencing

although I admit I might have been less clear on what I meant

Helwar

10:39

what's a jeff?

trogdor

@kviiri but people who know it reference it here in conversations, sometimes ones involving people new to the chat

that can be an issue

kviiri

@trogdor You're right

trogdor

@Helwar it's a meme in this chat room involving,... a few different things

BESW

@Helwar It started as a glitch in @doppelgreener's browser which labelled the RPG General Chat "JEFF."

trogdor

it has evolved over time though

Helwar

10:40

:)

BESW

Then it was used to reference my tendency to clutter up the chat with tangential pictures or links when I don't have another way to meaningfully contribute to a conversation.

trogdor

@BESW but yeah that definitely started the whole thing

to be fair, that is a good way to sum up the ways it is used

BESW

Since that version of jeff (the one focused on a particular member of the chat, rather than the chat as a whole) is the one which gained steam recently, I'm more inclined to take it off the chat tags--I put it up when it was a room joke, not a user joke.

trogdor

but what I was afraid of was,.... Jeff could evolve further, and sooner or later there will be too many things connected to Jeff to reasonably explain it to new people, and that would frustrate everyone involved

@BESW yes,.... I am more inclined to be upset that it changed and grew at all rather than just the exact way it did, but that is fair

BESW

I take up enough of the chat room's psychosocial space already, just by virtue of my ubiquity.

trogdor

10:44

also fair as a point

BESW

birds-apparently, however, describes an ongoing group activity shared by a number of users, so I'm less worried about it morphing into something clique-ish--though it was better when the link to the bird-watching was starred.

[enthusiastically over-analyses these things]

Helwar

what?

they birdwatch while playing D&D ?

haha

BESW

Apr 6 at 15:57, by kviiri

Follow this link to watch a beautiful live feed of a nesting couple of white-tailed eagles in Estonia. (Only available during Estonian daytime.)

kviiri

The egg of the Estonian white-tailed eagle is about to hatch in a few days by the way

trogdor

@Helwar not really while

BESW

10:46

Ever since that link was shared, chatting about the eagle-cam has been a semi-regular chat activity.

trogdor

it's just that a nice link to a real time stream for watching birds circulated the chat

and now a lot of the chat users are watching it

Helwar

haha, I see

BESW

I was so bemused by the randomness of it that after a week of it being a regular thing I added the birds-apparently tag to the room.

kviiri

It's a rather high quality stream too, although they've had some signal problems recently (you can see these faint horizontal bands of "noise" on it)

Some people are known to also keep it open just to have some sounds of nature :)

Helwar

you're more like a group of friends here and have your inside jokes, yes... But I'm new and I don't feel excluded... It just involves a bit of learning :)

BESW

10:48

We're happy to have you, and please feel free to contribute to the conversations in any direction which pleases you so long as it's nice.

kviiri

There seems to be a crack on the egg! Did my eyes deceive me

@Helwar You're most welcome! ^^

Helwar

thanks!

huh, can't click on the "nice" link by @BESW. It's at the end of the line and the options appear when I mouse over there haha

BESW

(We know that many online RPG forums have a tendency toward tribalism and personal attacks, so we try to be Nicer Than Nice in order to head that off at the pass. This lets us talk about a lot of difficult subjects if necessary, because we're careful about each others' feelings.)

@Helwar rpg.stackexchange.com/help/be-nice

And if a topic gets too extra, we have a secondary room that's used if the main room wants to go back to talking about RPGs, or if the subject is something that not everybody wants to endure.

Helwar

so basic rules of social interaction, I'm good then

:)

BESW

Yey!

It's a little depressing that we've had to codify these things so carefully, but sometimes folks need a reminder that the Internet is still full of Real People.

room topic changed to RPG General Chat: Main chat room for tabletop role-playing games [birds-apparently] [dice] [pen-and-paper] [roleplaying]

Helwar

10:53

I've been lurking a couple of SE for a few years, and I've found that a lot of the more active users get pedantic or bitter towards noobs. I guess that's because there is a limit to how many times can you find the same damn mistake and be nice about it, though

BESW

(For the record, because sometimes people get confused: I'm a room owner here, so I've got a few extra powers like messing with tags and kicking folks who get super out of hand. I'm not an elected moderator, I have no power outside this room beyond that according to any other Stack user. And I can count on one hand with fingers to spare the number of times I've had to flex my actual mechanical privileges here.)

trogdor

sorry jeff, I won't miss you though

XD

others might

BESW

@Helwar That's what pre-made comments are for! I can write up a nice helpful little info-dump once, then copy-paste it every time and be polite without expending emotional energy each time. AND I get to feel clever about it.

Helwar

:)

BESW

Helwar

10:58

I remember reading quite a few of those :)

BESW

I haven't been as active on mainsite lately as I used to be, but that's in part because so many other users are filling that role too now!

Helwar

i have to go, talk to you later!

BESW

ttfn

kviiri

11:11

Hmh. I need to talk to my party about something

In our Curse of Strahd game, one of the players' character bought an expensive item of gear on credit (not sure if that's allowed in the CoS book or just the GM improvising). The shopkeeper gave his character seven days to pay the debt.

I think we're five days in, and on the other side of Barovia. We'd still be able to reach the shop in time, but if the GM plays the trip "straight" as he's done before, the trip will be a nightmare of pacing.

hohenheim

@kviiri Where is the problem? The GM should play the trip straight. I wouldnt make sense for the party to teleport from one end of the map to the other. The shopekeeper will probably be mad if youre late, but thats an ingame problem.

kviiri

@hohenheim The problem is the nightmare of pacing part.

I don't want a session or two of travel encounter filler just because a player decided to buy an item on credit.

BESW

I suggest a hearty skill challenge.

hohenheim

@kviiri Now I get it. If it's just about paying your debt and then you're on your merry way, why can't you skip the whole travelling part?

BESW

Something Stalker-0-esque which is particularly difficult and allows for many different skills to be applied, and allows expending resources to improve rolls.

kviiri

11:18

@hohenheim I totally would, but I'm not sure about the GM...

BESW

That kind of thing is good for the "montage" effect.

hohenheim

Alternatively, talk to the player of the indebted character. Convince him/her, that it is way funnier to ditch the shopkeeper ^^.

kviiri

NetHack has taught me that messing with shopkeepers is seldom a good idea

Except having your pet steal. That's cool.

hohenheim

Who or what is NetHack?

BESW

NetHack

NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987 with ASCII graphics. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1982), which is a clone of Rogue (1980). Comparing it with Rogue, Engadget's Justin Olivetti wrote that it took its exploration aspect and "made it far richer with an encyclopedia of objects, a larger vocabulary, a wealth of pop culture mentions, and a puzzler's attitude." In 2000, Salon described it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer." The player chooses a character race and class for the mission of retrieving...

kviiri

11:24

@hohenheim It's an influential Roguelike game, filled to the brim with references to both popular and classical culture and known for having extremely intricate game mechanics. And being an absolute pain to learn to play without access to spoilers.

doppelgreener

@BESW I would be supportive of that. An internal culture with a strong basis of in-references makes the room culture less accessible to newcomers.

kviiri

Also, mentioning NetHack seems to be capable of summoning doppelgreener

doppelgreener

It is.

Pinging me also does that!

hohenheim

These graphics look ... confusing. Not sure if I want to try that.

kviiri

Wow!

@hohenheim The graphics are, old-skool as they may seem, rather understandable after you spend a few months playing it. There's also tile sets and even a 3D renderer available :)

Joel Harmon

11:27

@hohenheim My understanding is they are a huge time sink, as you basically end up memorizing a huge amount of stuff. Nominally, you end up dying frequently until you learn how to handle various situations.

doppelgreener

@hohenheim There is also a GUI version: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetHack#/media/…

@JoelHarmon Well, it is a video game. You play, you lose, you learn, you play some more.

Joel Harmon

@doppelgreener Speaking of pinging you, I dropped a mental thread a bit ago. Was there any kind of resolution on the "should we advise people to wait a day before Accepting" question?

doppelgreener

It is a time sink to the extent that playing an enjoyable game requires sinking time.

hohenheim

@doppelgreener Hi doppelgreener. Thanks for helping me out earlier. I have no idea who you are, but you seem to be super-important. Plus, I think you're involved in answering like 90% of my questions. Very nice, thumbs up.

doppelgreener

@JoelHarmon No, sorry, not yet. I've had my plate full but still plan to write an answer on that meta Q, advising against that practice.

Joel Harmon

11:29

@doppelgreener I would say it's deceptively complex and requires more than average memorization, even compared to a modern game.

kviiri

However, I think NetHack is... an interesting piece of art but not exactly a masterpiece of game design. Its main draw is the stunning level of humorous detail involved in the game. Pretty much any conceivable interaction of game mechanics seems to have been thought of in advance.

Joel Harmon

Then again, I'm a grumpy old man and believe games these days focus too much on shiny graphics at the expense of good game mechanics (and thus replayability)

@doppelgreener That's fine, just checking in.

doppelgreener

@hohenheim Hi! I'm one of the site's community-elected diamond moderators, which is essentially a fancy title for being a janitor. I do a lot of editing (though I did that even before I got elected about a year ago) and as a moderator I do a lot of comment cleanup.

kviiri

A classic example of how NetHack works is the "rubber chicken". The Chickatrice and Cockatrice are both deadly monsters in NetHack, because of their power to petrify the player by touching them. However, if the player kills one of those and wields its corpse, their attacks will likewise petrify suspectible enemies!

doppelgreener

@JoelHarmon Definitely compared to modern games, which require very little. Nethack's part of the roguelike genre wherein part of the challenge of a game is actually learning the game itself: what works, what doesn't, what gets you killed, what helps you survive, what do various items do, how do you use them effectively, what do your stats mean, etc.

kviiri

11:33

However, if the player is carrying too much, they may trip when trying to descend in a staircase, in which case wielding the Chickatrice/Cockatrice corpse will accidentally hit the PC, instantly petrifying them and losing the game.

Joel Harmon

@doppelgreener The fact that Elbereth is even a thing.

doppelgreener

Dark Souls is in that genre too, and it's part of why people claim Dark Souls is so difficult: modern games almost universally do not do that. They tell you everything about how the game works, and makes sure you're equipped and trained to face every challenge you run up against.

Anaphory

@kviiri I still need to fix that link to work from my work computer. (The problem is the media player, not the fact that it's blocked-or-something from work.)

kviiri

@doppelgreener Well, there are exceptions. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is a roguelike designed with very modern sensibilities in mind: they try to design the game in a manner where there are no "unfair" deaths, only strategic or tactical errors by the player.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I feel like there is a balance that can be struck

where you can learn things about the game without being kept completely in the dark from the start

kviiri

11:36

So Dungeon Crawl guides focus less on spoilers, because there's not much that can be spoiled, and more on strategy and tactics (which skills to level, how to avoid certain common deaths)

doppelgreener

@JoelHarmon That's a heck of a thing. I think factors like that one are also specifically relevant to Nethack's era: back then, we didn't have a NetHack Wiki to look things up in. People had game magazines and word of mouth. An older friend of mine was in boarding college at the time nethack was relatively new, and it was all the rage in the college dorm, and there was lots of collaboration, knowledge-sharing, discussion, debate, etc. People would hear rumours and tips and share them.

There was also stuff like usenet to talk over.

Joel Harmon

@doppelgreener Don't forget source code!

kviiri

@doppelgreener Yeah, I think that was a major draw back then. I was delightfully unaware of Wikis and so when I started playing, and I used to share knowledge with my big brother all the time

doppelgreener

@JoelHarmon Yeah, some people would be equipped to dig through that and discover things.

kviiri

Probably in the 1980's you'd also have a resident geek look at the source for you :)

doppelgreener

11:37

@trogdor I completely agree.

hohenheim

The concept of keeping information hidden from the player seems to be suitable (and interesting) when i comes to computer or console games (like Dark Souls and such). However engaging this may be for such games, do you think stuff like that would work in a D&D game? It seems to me, that players want to know every detail about every monster, spells, mechanic and get frustrated easily, when things are not the way they seem.

trogdor

@doppelgreener not to say there is not place for games like Dark Souls

obviously a lot of people like the series

doppelgreener

@trogdor Dark Souls 1 had some issues around that, they made a few major mistakes at the start of the game, but they were further exacerbated by the reputation of the game.

trogdor

I just don't personally like a game that hides the mechanics from me in any way

doppelgreener

@hohenheim In D&D no, in other games actually set up to facilitate that kind of gameplay yes.

trogdor

11:39

I count that as artificial difficulty, which I don't really like in either most or any form

doppelgreener

@kviiri That makes sense.

trogdor

depending partly on what you would classify as artificial or not

BESW

@hohenheim I much prefer games that reveal as much as possible to the players!

hohenheim

@doppelgreener Could you give an example of such game?

kviiri

@hohenheim Hm, I think the norm is GMs keeping things hidden from the player

Shalvenay

11:39

aye -- while such things were part of early D&D play (AD&D era), it's not something that was supported particularly well by the game

BESW

My favorite mystery RPG system gives necessary clues to anybody who narrates something that would justify finding them.

trogdor

@BESW I do too, but I can also see a place for secrets, stuff you have to figure out for yourself is also good

hohenheim

@kviiri Of yourse, the GM keeps the plot and stuff like that a secret. But usually the players have access to all the mechanical information of the game (, at least in my games).

doppelgreener

@hohenheim I don't know of one. I know that in D&D, actually knowing things about the choices you're picking up is important enough, and complex enough, that I wouldn't try to say "pick your spells without knowing what they do" to anyone. It works in nethack because I can change options and have a rapid feedback loop when things don't work (I play for half an hour, I die, I learn, I play again).

BESW

And I also really like systems where the GM doesn't decide what's going on, but sets up a problem and everyone collaborates to discover the solution together so everybody gets surprised.

kviiri

11:40

@hohenheim I like it that way too, but I think we're in the minority overall.

BESW

The only game I can think of which deliberately and actively hides basic rule information from the players is Paranoia.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yep, that one would do it.

kviiri

Personally I've picked up a lot of my GM'ing philosophy from Apocalypse World where one of the GM rules is "be generous with the information". It makes perfect sense to me - all the players have to visualize the world with is the figurative Plato's cave of everything being filtered through the GM's words. Extra information balances it out and helps players drive the story in the ways they want.

doppelgreener

It's not in a nethacky fashion, but it definitely actively hides information from the players. Players can of course read the GM-only sections of the manuals, but actually demonstrating any knowledge of those sections is treason and you will be executed. (And there is no IC/OOC conversational divide: all conversation is treated as IC, so you cannot OOCly discuss those GM-only sections.)

BESW

In that game, a player acknowledging they're aware of game mechanics in parts of the book above their clearance level can be dealt severe in-game punishment.

doppelgreener

11:43

Importantly: Paranoia is built from the ground up for that level of secrecy.

trogdor

@doppelgreener also, in certain roguelikes/lites not knowing stuff is part of the fun partly because you can learn a lot and die and do another run with new info very quickly

doppelgreener

@trogdor Totally!

kviiri

Both eagles are in the camera!

hohenheim

Haha, sounds fun ^^.

BESW

Also importantly: Paranoia is designed to be a satire of toxic gaming-group customs.

doppelgreener

11:43

Argh! I lost the link! @kviiri Can I have it?

Oh I got it! tv.eenet.ee/merikotkas.html

kviiri

tv.eenet.ee/merikotkas.html

jinx!

trogdor

oh jeez

one was screaming right as I loaded in XD

doppelgreener

hahaha

trogdor

I wasn't watching this much but both of them on screen at once is too good to pass up

I am having real loading issues though

kviiri

One left already :<

trogdor

11:46

it went on long enough for me to get screamed at and now it's loading again

doppelgreener

@BESW Also that yes.

Anaphory

Yay! It works in another browser.

trogdor

most streams are too far away from me I guess

@kviiri I mean, I guess it's really a survival strategy, if they both hang around the nest for long periods of time, who is getting the food right?

they can't just go to the store XD

kviiri

@trogdor Yup :)

trogdor

yeah I ain't getting much

this is largely why I haven't looked at it much

kviiri

11:48

@hohenheim I have this long-running project where the players are members of a revolutionary terrorist group. However, each one is also an agent of a different secret service, without knowing the others are too. They have strict instructions not to let any evil plots succeed and not to blow their cover. The players would be unaware of everyone else being double agents too, and then I'd just cackle gleefully as they bungle everything up.

trogdor

it's real choppy and re-loady for me

@kviiri I do feel like that will leave no one pressuring each other to actually do any terrorist stuff though?

like, an agent isn't gonna encourage "terrorists" to do more bad stuff right?

kviiri

To spice it up more, some players would have an additional tidbit that their organization has detected another undercover agent inside, and they're under strict orders not to let them suffer harm. Of course, they don't know this undercover agent's identity, so they'll have an incentive to step in to defend anyone bungling something up.

@trogdor That's a good point. I've been thinking that the starting scenario would be of the sort that they have underlings who are terrorists for real.

And they'd come with a bomb and ask where it should be put.

Anaphory

@kviiri Plus a lot of relationships between smaller groups of players each, so they can assume that the secret machinations of other players are not necessarily secret-agent-ship, but the type of machinations they have with someone else, too?

trogdor

@kviiri lol, that works I think

That way you can basically be a driving Force for making them pretend to each other

kviiri

@Anaphory Yeah something like that! It has to be suspicious :)

trogdor

11:53

My issue with it is, this kinda thing isn't too repeatable

kviiri

Anyway, the reason I haven't tried this out yet is that when I came upon this idea the first thing I did was ask my usual RPG channel if it wouldn't be a cool idea and then I realized it wouldn't surprise anyone, anymore, ever :D

@trogdor I agree, but a good one-shot is also good :)

doppelgreener

@kviiri I'd look at it this way: they have a reason to be in this organisation in the long term beyond "go in there and mess things up". They also have higher-ups holding them accountable, and if they don't seem to be "with it" then they'll be kicked out and the plots will be put in the hands of genuine terrorists.

trogdor

I do assume that hopefully your group is also fine with being decieved in this way

kviiri

@trogdor Yeah, I'll have to check that up in advance

trogdor

@kviiri fair enough there

doppelgreener

11:54

So they have a reason to stick around and try to do what the group is trying to do, but in ways that won't actually succeed at their goals or do serious damage or hurt people.

kviiri

On the positive side, I think it's a funny setup even if the players are aware of it

trogdor

@kviiri how do you do that in this case?

Anaphory

It might also work as a LRP with more than a handful players, and more than the two (himself plus “that other guy”) secret agents every secret agent suspects, adding some genuine terrorists-with-love-interests or terrorists-with-goverment-relations or pacifist-terrorists or stuff to it.

kviiri

@trogdor I'd clarify in advance that the game will feature deception and secret agendas, and that there will be unexpected twists

trogdor

Ah ok

doppelgreener

11:56

@kviiri I agree. I could see myself doing something like that in Fate. The players are aware of the characters' situations -- and can use that knowledge to gleefully conspire against their own characters to get them into sticky situations where they risk exposure and so on.

trogdor

I do think it sounds fun really, in a way, buty gut reaction also says someone who ends up not liking it due to the deception involved might feel really betrayed

Anaphory

@kviiri Yes, but an absolutely entirely different game.

trogdor

If no one does though, cool idea (the biggest problem being, how can you know no one will feel that way)

kviiri

@Anaphory Yep

trogdor

@doppelgreener I would personally like it better that way yeah

Anaphory

12:00

It does remind me of the LARP I played recently with layers upon layers upon layers of intrigue. If everyone has got three layers of intrigue going on and the setup makes clear that everyone has at least two layers of intrigue, then no-one would be surprised that it's acutally three levels for everyone.

(Layer one: the secret terror cell, or in my LARP case, the masquerade of magical society; Layer two: all the secret personal relationships, political agendas and spy networks; Layer three: the really nasty stuff, like being a government spy or a magical terrorist or a secret werewolf or stuff like that)

kviiri

I got to visit an authentic 19th century mansion last weekend

It wasn't haunted. :<

Anaphory

Oh, entirely unrelated, apart from the “I got to visit” part: I'll be in Helsinki probably around 3/4/5 June (going up through all other Skandinavian capitals during the weeks before that, for anyone who cares).

Would you be up to meet this random internet stranger for games, tea, sightseeing or whatever?

kviiri

12:15

Well why not ^^

trogdor

@kviiri XD I would be happy honestly

I wouldn't be too pleased to experience a haunting, simultaneously being scared by it and shattering my worldview that I won't have to experience any because they aren't real XD

kviiri

Heh :)

The mansion belongs to a friend's family. Their family isn't particularly wealthy and whenever he spoke of it, I assumed he was exaggerating. But turns out it was every bit as awesome as he had described and then some. Except it was in terrible shape.

Tiggerous

@kviiri Have you heard of 'The Man Who was Thursday' by GK Chesteron? That book is similar to the terrorist / secret agent plot you described.

kviiri

The original owner of the mansion, one of this friend's ancestors, was a reeve, and the mansion served as his "humble quarters". A lot of the furniture was authentic 19th century, but the building looked like a huge chore to maintain. I'm glad I don't own one of those!

@Tiggerous Nope! Actually even the author is unfamiliar to me :)

Tiggerous

@kviiri He was a very 'larger than life' character, whose creative peak was about 100 years ago and whose written output was ridiculously large. He basically wrote his own regular newspaper. Most of his novels are quite weird, including that one. He used to carry a sword-stick everywhere and once said (paraphrase) 'I would count it as a singular honour, if I am ever called upon to defend the honour of my wife [using the sword-stick].

@kviiri I've read three of his novels and a lot of short stories - his writing style is sort of halfway between Dickens and Oscar Wilde, that book in particular just seemed relevant to the scenario you were discussing (it is a weird book though).

goodguy5

12:28

morning nerds

Anaphory

@kviiri Cool.

kviiri

Let's hope for a good weather ^^

@Tiggerous Sounds like a blast!

BESW

I stayed in a haunted hotel once.

But, since Guam is pretty much all over with what Westerners would probably call hauntings, it maybe wasn't as big a deal for me as it was for the people in the area?

I wasn't exactly blasé about sleeping near a really angry taotaomo'na tree, but it wasn't a paradigm-challenging experience on either a culture or faith level.

doppelgreener

In what way did you recognise it as angry?

trogdor

@BESW I just wouldn't want to do that

kviiri

12:40

@Anaphory Have you got plans already?

trogdor

@doppelgreener I don't know the specific way but,... generally they are angry if you don't show them the proper respect while hanging around them

one thing, for example, you need to ask permission to use the bathroom and give permission back to them to do the same around where you live, just one thing I have heard before

doppelgreener

Ok, cool.

BESW

@doppelgreener I didn't even see the tree at first, because it was in the back! But you get a sensitivity to the feelings of guello yan guella, and I definitely had that "back of the neck" sense that somebody wasn't happy but it wasn't me they were unhappy with.

trogdor

there is doubtless more I haven't heard, and I don't feel comfortable saying I am definitely right about what I have heard

@BESW I definitely just studiously avoid making a habit of testing that stuff myself

BESW

Then I saw the tree. There's a certain kind of banyan tree that taotaomo'na rest in, and a banyan that's occupied needs to be treated with a lot of respect. This one was in the middle of a parking lot, paved all the way up to its trunk all the way around, and just radiated illness and offense.

trogdor

12:44

I don't technically believe in it, but like, I also can't say I am not scared of the idea anyway

@BESW I am so surprised people,..... did all that and then still left the tree there

I realize cutting the tree down is also problematic in that mindset,.... but then it goes back to "why did you do the rest of that?"

BESW

My religious beliefs don't match up with Chamoru spiritual beliefs exactly, but there's room for a lot of overlap and I totally believe there's something going on that they're tapped into. I've experienced it.

doppelgreener

@BESW :'(

BESW

But this was a hotel in Florida, and I'd never encountered that kind of thing in the mainland before. The taotaomo'na don't really travel abroad.

trogdor

@BESW yeah really I can't say I have not,.... like yeah logically I don't believe that stuff, but I get this feeling sometimes, especially with certain ghost stories and the like

@BESW ah ok

that explains my questions then

BESW

So I dunno what was going on with that hotel, but it was big enough that it was advertised as haunted and when I went there... yeah, something was up.

And that tree did not look happy.

trogdor

12:47

I would imagine not

course, now I am really confused why whoever paved the place up left the thing there

BESW

As Troggy mentioned, there's a tradition of asking permission before relieving yourself in the jungle, because people live there--even if they aren't exactly the living anymore in a western sense.

trogdor

maybe they got the creeps at the idea of cutting it down

BESW

And part of that asking permission is learning how to get an answer: by being quiet and open so that you can feel either calm acceptance or nervous because they want you to go.

I've never felt that "go away, you do not have permission to be here" so intensely, before or since.

Anaphory

@kviiri Nope, so far I have an outbound flight– and actually for the 3rd, not the 5th as I had planned earlier, confused that – and I'll come in by train from Turku a few days before that..

BESW

And I've had encounters with spiritual forces outside the Marianas other times, but this was the only time it was that same sort of encounter.

Anyway, sleep now. ttfn

doppelgreener

12:55

@BESW Goodnight!

Ben

@kviiri wow... Indeed

Rubiksmoose

Good morning all.

kviiri

Hi!

Tiggerous

Good night and good morning :)

doppelgreener

@trogdor I hope so. :P

kviiri

13:02

@Anaphory Okay, I'll try to arrange we're in town for that weekend. There's a non-zero chance we're in Pori from Friday to Sunday

trogdor

@doppelgreener just a guess

hohenheim

Has anybody of you experience with All Flesh Must Be Eaten? Would this be a good system for a zombie-apocalypse-oneshot? If not, can you recommend any other system that would be suited better?

kviiri

BESW has at least mentioned it, but I don't know if he ever played it.

What kind of game would you like it to be?

I think a gritty tactical survival zombie apocalypse could work well with Savage Worlds (and I stress that I'd never recommend Savage Worlds lightly!) and a more narrative drama-oriented one could work with Apocalypse World (which, on the other hand, I do recommend lightly)

hohenheim

I would prefer a drama-oriented approach.

goodguy5

13:17

I can never remember the difference(s) between savage and apocalypse world

hohenheim

Three of my four players like the series "The Walking Dead". I haven't watched a single episode, but as far as i understand, my players want more drama, less tactics.

Helwar

@hohenheim where do you find such players? Mine want more hack and slash, less drama

xD

hohenheim

Well, I think my players are really bad when it comes to tactics. So they usually don't go in that direction. Therefore, only drama remains as viable option ^^.

doppelgreener

@hohenheim In 2014 we explored the possibility of using Roll for Shoes as a lightweight system for a zombie survival one-shot.

kviiri

@goodguy5 They're like night and day :P

Anaphory

13:24

@goodguy5 Savage Worlds is kind-of traditional, no-classes, player characters are slightly-larger-than-life characters with skills and attributes rated at various dice sizes, and some edges giving bonusses in certain situations (like Fate stunts, if you know them).

kviiri

Savage Worlds is also one of those setting-independent fairly-realistic systems. And it feels more like a wargame than most RPGs (it even gives distances like weapon ranges directly as battlemap inches)

And Apocalypse World is, well... not very realistic, nor very tactical. It's designed to fulfill narrative tropes of post-Apocalyptic hellscapes :)

Anaphory

@goodguy5 Apocalypse World is the first Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games (that engine-or-whatever-it-is takes its name from that game), which is very un-traditional as far as rules for the GM and some assumptions of game structure go. PCs have strong archetypes or classes, are their one-of-a-kind in that society (kind of), with moves, each specifying what interesting things should happen according to the genre conventions on a fail, partical or complete success.

goodguy5

oh wait... savage worlds and apocalypse world don't use the same engine?!

oh, geeze

I thought all those ______ world games were the same Xd6 engine

Anaphory

@goodguy5 Savage worlds is probably THE exception to that thought pattern :) [X=2]

goodguy5

well, ya learn new stuff.

hohenheim

13:32

That's because it's Savage WorldS, not Savage World ^^.

Anaphory

Now I wonder whether at least one of Monsterhearts/Monster of the Week/… (which are Powered by the Apocalypse) started out with a working title of ‘Darkness World’ to play on that theme and the ‘World of Darkness’ title…

goodguy5

and X=2? I thought X equals your skill?

OH Right, your skill determines what you're trying to roll under

Anaphory

@goodguy5 Many moves have a “Roll 2d6 + modifier, check wether 7–9 or 10+” in the mechanical part. Modifier is usually a character stat.

goodguy5

yes. It's been a while since I played one of those.... .

probably 5 years?

I think it's been all 5e D&D and Fate... and Slapdash

Tiggerous

When mentioning another user by name in an answer (in order to give credit) is there an ettiquette to how to do it? Should I link from their name to their profile ect.?

goodguy5

13:45

dunno

Rubiksmoose

@Tiggerous I don't think I've seen any particular method used. Just @user is sufficient IMO. Unless you are referencing an answer of theirs in which case linking to it might be nice.

Tiggerous

I have made an error - one second...

I have done this. Someone tell me if it's inappropriate.

goodguy5

oh, yea. perfect

kviiri

Looks good to me

Tiggerous

Great, thanks both.

goodguy5

13:56

I thought of a character idea. Harley Quinn, if her father was a medieval knight and she wanted to be good. But like... somewhere between suicide squad Harley and Batman Cartoon Harley.

My wife did not like it. (she hates the airhead bad girl thing)

daze413

@doppelgreener heyo, I'm writing a meta answer, can I bother any of the mods to pull up my deleted comments in this question? rpg.stackexchange.com/q/121109/23064

Rubiksmoose

[thumbs up]

goodguy5

Would a gnome warlock be the most insufferable character by raw description?
Excitable, insatiable for adventure, and thirsty, nay, starving for knowledge.

daze413

nope. google "kender"

kviiri

@Anaphory Any idea what you'd like to do here? if the weather's nice and you don't mind outdoors activities, there's a few pretty sites in or near Helsinki. The cuisine's not much to brag about, and the best beer is foreign, but at least we've got some nice scenery.

@goodguy5 I think there's a stereotype that gnome bards are particularly bad.

Helwar

14:11

i love Kenders, don't you dare hate on the most chaotic awesome race ever

goodguy5

*all bards

kviiri

@goodguy5 I wish I could argue with that

goodguy5

@daze413 kender are setting specific

kviiri

but I can't

daze413

@goodguy5 you could say the same with gnomes :)

goodguy5

14:12

fair

Helwar

bards rule too. Still have to find an edgy emo bard (though they are possible)

goodguy5

I'm still getting over playing with butt-head and/or womanizing bards in college (like 9 years ago). I'm almost able to view bards unbiased.

kviiri

Gnomes do have a tendency to be... tricky characters, by my experience.

Anaphory

@kviiri Scenery is nice! Mostly, I'm going through Skandinavia to see a lot of it, and I'll have hiking boots with me for such purposes (like Hardangerjøkulen, Ahvenanmaa). But your RPG preferences sound compatible with mine, so that might also be an option. Beer is not to my taste, anyway.

Helwar

Last bard I played was a bouncer-esque goliath intimidating people left and right, and talking people to death, while also had a penchant for the arts and secretly acted in the theathre (ALso, run a band of mercenaries, and wielded a greatsword)

Anaphory

14:16

@goodguy5 It may be for a reason that I made the only D&D NPC I made recently – an insufferable arch mage/dean of a faculty who does not care about anything outside their ivory tower – a Gnome Wizard.

kviiri

@Anaphory I'll ask around for a group then :)

@Anaphory There's a few fortress near Helsinki, those are nice sites. Suomenlinna is the mainstream one but Vallisaari was opened to the public just a few years ago and has some beautiful nature to show for its relative disuse

Anaphory

@kviiri Looking at both on Openstreetmap, the difference between the two of them – some 300 m apart – is really stark!

kviiri

They're really nice places, both of them... assuming it's a sunny day.

goodguy5

Regarding this question about the Grease spell, I vote that the spell be changed to "Crisco".

Tiggerous

I've reached the daily reputation cap for the first time. A happy sad milestone :S.

goodguy5

14:30

yay?

Tiggerous

Yes, a questionable yay.

nitsua60

@Tiggerous [cong]rats.

David Coffron

14:48

@nitsua60 I laughed for like 2 minutes at that

nitsua60

@DavidCoffron [cong]rats

David Coffron

'tis legendary

nitsua60

"and there was much lolfigsling"

goodguy5

I don't get it....

Rubiksmoose

@Tiggerous now do it 149 more times!

Tiggerous

14:54

Congrats = Well done, Rats = Expression of annoyance.

@Rubiksmoose I predict that will take me a minimum of 149 days. I'll get back to you on it.

4/5 of a dance?

goodguy5

@Tiggerous oh, got it

Rubiksmoose

@Tiggerous I don't know what you are talking about :P

Maximillian

Ah the grease spell. Something I had a newbie party use numerous times to surprisingly great results.

goodguy5

careful saying that it "has no color", as that makes it seems transparent/translucent.

Rubiksmoose

@Tiggerous one day, I hope I can cap 7 days in a row. I don't know why I want to, but it seems fun.

Maximillian

14:59

During break a player humorously asked if the grease spell could be used for hair gel. I stomped my DM foot dramatically and said "Absolutely not." and after a pause, I noted that's more of a prestidigitation thing, but there must absolutely be no musical number to go with it.

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