Can I talk about 5E D&D beef here?

What kind of beef

^

like... are you asking about how food works? or a problem

@Powerdork of course

@goodguy5 I just have that page memorized because it's so much easier finding it there than in the DMG's monster-building section. Not that you need to reference it ever, because once you've seen it it's "oh, monster CR functions as character level for this purpose, with everything below 5 having +2 prof."

@nitsua60 Well, proficiency is just level (or CR) divided by 4, round up

@Powerdork Pastrami is underpowered in d20. I've had enough of this "masterwork corned beef" nonsense. Pastrami deserves better than that. Much, much better.

I'm of the opinion they just didn't need to have 5 editions of Dine & Dash.

@goodguy5 ??? Not quite, I believe. How does prof(level)=ceil(level/4) give you prof(1)=2?

@nitsua60 whoops. forgot the "+1" will edit

@goodguy5 Ah, then yes. That'll do.

dang. too long ago.

"You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender." - PHB, which goes on, on the same page even, to use "he or she" to refer to the player's hypothetical character.

Except CR0 still needs to have +2, and yours would give +1 =\

@Powerdork oh wow. I never noticed that.

@Powerdork That's your beef with 5e?

@Powerdork Ok, what would you have done instead?

Mmm, Wizards has been trying to be more inclusive with their projects, but they don't seem to have anyone really advising them or anything.

@SPavel I mean they didn't say it was their only beef....

@Powerdork "you don't need to [in terms of the game]" is not the same as "we have chosen to". but it's an interesting observation

Dungeons and Dragons is colonialism + consumerism + toxic masculinity, the game. That sentence doesn't begin to scratch the surface of its problems

(it's also fun to play so w/e)

@GreySage "They/them" is an easy and less awkward alternative to "he or she," even if you're not trying to be welcoming to enby folks.

@BESW and also becoming more and more accepted from a grammar/publishing standpoint if I'm not mistaken.

@SPavel I've never considered D&D to be a game of toxic masculinity before, though I can get why you'd say that.

Were there similar statements in 3.x or 4? It certainly caught my eye when I got the 5e PHB, coming most recently from 2e, as it was a striking change to the "let's throw a girdle of femininity in the dungeon for yuks" culture of my D&D youth.

There's still a long way to go, obviously, but 5e is much more inclusive than any previous editions, isn't it? So is your beef really with 5e specifically?

@SPavel Yeah, let's not tar every instance of the game with problems you've seen? Fair to state whatever toxicity you've seen/experienced, not really fair to call all of our tables toxic by extension.

@nitsua60 3.5 alternated between "he" and "she" each time a new person/character was referenced in the text: first one, then the other.

@SPavel How so?

@nitsua60 Hold up my dude, I'm not talking about how people choose to play the game, just the way the books themselves are written

At its core, D&D never really graduated from "visit places where other people live and then get XP for killing them"

It doesn't have to be played that way!

But the rules very much assume this to be the default mode.

@SPavel I'm not sure that's true, but I'd have to reread it.

@SPavel The system equally supports "defend your places from other people and then get XP for killing them"

But in the vital stats section it's "Your character can be either male or female," with no further comment.

@BESW Page 121, in the Character Details section, it elaborates

@GreySage I think you're not referring to the same edition I am.

@goodguy5 What do you spend most time you interface with the game rules doing? (Exploring, fighting.) Do the rules encourage it? (Yes, moreso than most other interactions.) Do the rules try decently to encourage other options?

@BESW Oh, could be. I was saying in 5e

@Powerdork Sorry, I don't quite understand your question.

Mhm. I was responding to Nitsua's question about how it's dealt with in other editions. Specifically 3.5.

@SPavel That's fair... when I hear "D&D is" I think not only of the rules WotC publishes, but also the instance of D&D that my friends and I construct when we sit down together. So that's a bit on me, the misconnect.

@BESW K. My bad

Well, I'm out to have a shower, so maybe someone else can help.

@Powerdork ...help with what?

This is a game with hundreds of pages and rules about fighting and killing things, and social interaction is basically a single dice roll. It's very upfront about being a combat game. I don't see why that's a bad thing, or how that ties into "toxic" anything.

@GreySage the grenade they lobbed in here =)

3.5 is worse in some ways but at least its ridiculous amount of content lets you be all kinds of weird crap like a sentient blob of magic given form and life, which is so far outside the gender binary that there's a long distance charge for calling

@GreySage goodguy5 saying, "Sorry, I don't quite understand your question."

4e has the beautiful misconnect of Wilden gender:

> Individuality has no place in a wilden's life. Males and females display differences in personality and appearance, but all wilden regard themselves as parts of a greater whole. When speaking of themselves, wilden use the plural, saying "we" instead of "I."

@Powerdork you're relying on someone else to interpret and explain what you meant?

@goodguy5 non-combat confrontations exist

@nitsua60 right?!

@goodguy5 The more I've played games that actually do provide nuanced mechanics for pushing story scenes, the more I feel that D&D's "eh, figure it out" is a massive missed opportunity.

@goodguy5 Skills barely have rules

@SPavel I mean I don't think that is accurate really. Compared with what, for one thing?

@Rubiksmoose Compared with even previous editions of D&D, or combat rules for the same edition(s)

@SPavel Is that a bad thing? And why?

@GreySage I don't make value judgments

@goodguy5 I mean... there are so many systems which use the same mechanical framework for any kind of conflict. Fate. Dogs in the Vineyard. Lady Blackbird. InSpectres.

(that is a lie, I make value judgments aggressively, often with contradictory values, but in this case I haven't judged anything yet)

And then there's games like Bubblegumshoe, which have different mechanics for each.

@goodguy5 Fair enough, but I think that BESW is saying is that the game gives you a lot of tools for combat, and so that favors building around combat challenges rather than non-combat challenges

@MikeQ And more specifically, games with more complete non-combat conflict mechanics can push their agendas more effectively. Suddenly throwing your hands up and going "Freeform time!" means that the game's experience will probably feel more disjointed because it has varying levels of curation.

I have very mixed feelings about FATE's combat engine but consider this: in FATE, one character can have another character completely overpowered in a brutal one-sided beatdown, and still lose the combat

anyway. lunch time.

In D&D, taking on hit point damage is one of the only ways to hurt someone that matter, and the other ways are all spells

@goodguy5 The designers of the shelf valued the shelf enough to complicate the design. The shelf is very much favored in that case.

@SPavel depending on the character choices one's made. If one's hp and/or combat efficacy are all that matters to the character, that's likely true. Once there are other things--especially outside oneself--that one cares about, though....

D&D and similar games are evolutions from old-timey tabletop war games, where the goal was simply to kill all the enemies. Storytelling, roleplaying, and diplomacy were added on with a stapler.

A shelf is actually a very good example, as it is a container. It is designed to hold certain things. You could have great difficulty, for example, keeping soup on a shelf, because that's not what it was designed for. A bowl would support soup much better.

@nitsua60 The outside-of-self pieces tend to have only hitpoint-related metrics as well

@nitsua60 Again, that's freeform material outside the support of the system; compare Bubblegumshoe where your relationships with NPCs are a major resource necessary to function and succeed in the game.

@SPavel Not in my game. But I've got to run. Some other time, keep an eye on that egg!

I refer you to "If I can fix it, does that mean it wasn't broken?"

If someone wants to run a non-combat RP/intrigue game, and they enjoy 5E's very loose framework because it gives them freedom, then great. That's good for them. But then why use 5E?

@nitsua60 Does your game use rules beyond the ones written in the books?

D&D works for that sort of thing inasmuch as it doesn't get in the way of letting the group work it however they want.

There's a virtue in that, yes.

But it's very different from supporting that kind of play.

Well said

One of the reasons I like 4e is that it encourages in-combat narrative descriptions by adding suggestive flavor text to every power.

@SPavel Anyway, I still don't understand the earlier comment about colonialism and toxic masculinity.

That's a clever layout design choice which prompts players to get kinda Wushu-y.

@BESW The flavor text IMO is very lazy

Most of the avenger powers are "angels swoop down from above and take xd6 damage"

That's a different discussion.

But I also like 4e because it backs away from social scene structures almost entirely and doesn't try to dictate how rolls interact with roleplay the way, say, 3.5 did.

Because D&D has never done that well, but 4e had the courage of its convictions to not try.

@SPavel Angels swoop down and take damage? Whatever the avenger does, angels just bleed around them. Metal.

I can admire a game that knows what it's interested in and doesn't go fiddling around in the spaces that won't get the full attention of the devs.

4e would have been much better received without the D&D brand IMO

Aye, it tried to shake the franchise's shackles of things-which-must-exist-because-they-always-have, and it succeeded--much to the consternation of many.

Hence my semi-regular avowal that 13th Age is the best D&D game, because it doesn't feel obligated to do things just because that's how D&D does them.

The thing that has always bugged me about D&D is that it tries to marry two fundamentally different genres: gritty realistic low fantasy on a tactical level, and high fantasy kitchen sink epic shenanigans, but doesn't actually make a distinction between the two

It should be two games, and 4e and 5e are good candidates for those two games

Yup. For having its conceptual roots in "ideas from media these guys like" it's surprisingly coherent, but that's a low bar.

But because there can only be one edition, everything 4e did is dead forever

Why do the genres need to be separated? What's wrong with trying to alternate between the two?

@MikeQ Alternate? Nothing. The problem is when you have characters from both within the same party.

5e is better about this, but you still have "man who carries sword" and "man who carries a book with the power to warp reality itself into a delicious pretzel" next to one another

Whereas 4e managed to get more like "Conan the Barbarian and Harry Potter can both do nonsensically awesome stuff."

@BESW Yeah, 4e has a laser focus on "yes this guy wields a sword, but that's probably the least interesting thing about him"

I think the idea of Paragon Path and Epic Destiny is a very good one - you get 30 levels of being a Fighter, but also these other character-defining things

As opposed to 3.5 where if you want to do something interesting, now you are less of a Fighter

Or 2e where multiclassing is madness

Apropos of nothing looking at 5e questions, did someone declare it death/resurrection week and not tell me? :)

@Rubiksmoose No, Easter was last week

@Rubiksmoose it's death/resurrection week? [starts deleting stuff]

Although Orthodox Easter was over the weekend I think, so maybe our users follow the old calendar

@SPavel XD

@doppelgreener let it all burn! lol

@Rubiksmoose [gets Beso Negro's Burn it Down stuck in his head again]

@BESW you're welcome :)

...it might also have something to do with the fact I'm still working on my taxes.

@BESW that would certainly do it.

@BESW I paid a guy to do my taxes and my desire to burn everything and everyone is steady at "moderate-high"

Yeeeah. I'm self-employed.

Update for all of those who helped me learn the diffs between ad&d2.5e and 5e,

I have successfully navigated the dangers of Cable Hill and am well on the way to Greenhall.

However, due to a Displacer beast attack, one of my party members has died.

Also, our NPC guide died.

@BESW I'm still working on my US taxes too. You would think the fact that I made no us-taxable money would simplify the process, but nooooo

This level 1 hill dwarf paladin is still alive however and has a nice Displacer beast pelt to carry around.

@GreySage Naturally not.

As a note, our DM is wayyyyyy too good at rolling die.

I also have to hand-fill some of the forms because no tax software knows how to do the Guam forms.

@Anoplexian oh wow! Ummmm so RIP the party huh?

@NautArch @Maximillian @Goodguy5 @mikeq

No, me and the damned elven druid are still alive.

@BESW Same, tax software people don't anticipate a US citizen living and working outside the US.

For some reason however, she used thunderwave on the whole party.

So.

She pretty much killed us because she hadn't read the details on the spell.

@Anoplexian that seems like an odd tactical decision.

@Anoplexian ah. Oops.

It was a terrible one.

@Anoplexian But at least she didn't hold up the combat for 20 minutes while she re-read the spell.

I took 6/15 dmg, our dead member took 3, DB took 3, and NPC took 6.

@BESW I disagree somewhat that it's outside the system's support. I agree that the support that's there is much lighter than other pieces, that it's not well presented, and gets very little attention from product developers (esp. module/AP writers, which is where I feel the brand really could be doing a lot of its "here's a way to play" exposition.)

@Anoplexian I found out I had misunderstood thunderwave recently

@GreySage isn't there a 1-page form

I would have preferred if she did @GreySage.

@SPavel Not really, no.

1040EZ or something

Turns out "originating from" is not the same as "centered on"

Yeahhhh.

I remember when I was a student, I submitted the "I have no money pls no hurt" form and they took it

She learned quickly that thunderwave on your own party hurts like a mofo

She learned as soon as she was knocked unconscious and I almost slit her characters throat for intentional sabotage.

@SPavel The problem is that I have money, just not money they can have (and that they have said they are not interested in taking)

But I didn't.

Then when I graduated they whacked me with a bunch of "you didn't have insurance while looking for work, lol" tax

@SPavel Having three kids I get to make pretty much the same argument =)

@Anoplexian that was very warm-hearted of you.

@GreySage Whoa how can I convince the IRS that they don't want my money

that is one epic Bluff

@SPavel Live outside the US, work exclusively outside the US, and make less than 100 grand a year.

@SPavel Pretend to be very rich.

@Spavel I roll for Persuasion?

@GreySage But you still have to file US tax?

@SPavel Yup

@Rubiksmoose I was feeling.....a bit unnerved by the sabotage. OOC, our DM asked if she REALLY wanted to do that, and she still said yes after hearing what it did,.

I was dumbfounded.

> Try anything and she'll hand you your butt. She will then certify in triplicate that you legally took possession of your own butt. Your demise shall have a scrupulous paper trail! (source)

@Anoplexian that is some very much not-cool decision making

In character, I thought she might be set to sabotage us and our mission, but after using my paladin Divine Sense, I saved her.

@SPavel This is the first year I've made over their threshold for filing taxes (graduated last year), and the US system is much more complicated than the Canadian system. I suppose I should be grateful I don't have to file State taxes too at least.

With my character now thinking she was inexorably a dumbass.

@Anoplexian If only she had Divine Common Sense

Or even Mortal Common Sense?

...though it would be better if she had Hella Common Sense.

Ha! And they thought it was weird I saved 2 charges of Lay on Hands.

Until I used it to save their saving throws.

Or heal them anyway.

@BESW beautiful.

Huh what? What was I pinged for?

> Common Cents. You always have some pocket change in the local currency, no matter where you happen to be.

Enough change to send a short message in the local currency.

How do you handle different currency in D&D? the character sheet only has boxes for one type.

That's a GM question.

@SimonH. When the adventurers come to town all the shopkeepers put out their gp-denominated signage. bread: 1 penny bread: 3 gp.

Context starts here I think:

Ah, I see I was pinged about the 2E to 5E stuff.

yeah :)

There's a GM idea. 2E wizard shows up in 5E.

"whaddya mean, minor divination!?"

"Haste doesn't age you kids? What?"

"Back in my day, if you wanted to throw a fireball, you had to harvest your own bat guano."

@Maximillian That's why you got the bat familiar

@SimonH. Technically since gp/sp/cp is a metaphysical constant (the magic of the universe relies on it) you might have some trouble with local currencies...

@nitsua60 But where do you write the second currency? On the back?

Produce material component, standard action

@SimonH. There is only one currency in D&D

@Maximillian "whaddya mean everyone can read magic!?"

@SimonH. Sorry, that was a little tongue-in-cheek. In reality I don't go with local coinage. Not for a few decades, at least.

I never understood that, just reading the DMG. It's right there in the organizations part of the DMG, @SPavel

"You. You don't have the Bigby's hand spells here?"

@SimonH. gp/sp/ep/pp/cp are no more different currencies than greenbacks, dimes, quarters, and pennies

2E Wizard produces a protractor and a ruler. "What's that for?" "This is a stone dungeon. I can bank this shot just right...."

I mean, the 5c piece is literally a nickel - a nickel piece, if you will

Pennies are (or were) copper pieces, until they were diluted with tin because the value of a penny plummeted

@SPavel In the 5E DMG, it mentions how some areas have local currencies that are worth less in other cities

@SimonH. I will maintain my (possibly controversial) position that a throwaway line is not a rule, and so does not count

@Maximillian Ya, I had my 5e seesion and just wanted to thank you for all the help.

@SPavel :smug:

@Maximillian Gotta make sure you have the NWPs for those

I'm pretty curious as to how you have 15 HP, though.

@goodguy5 I rolled a 17 on Con, plus dwarf/paladin.

I rolled a 6 on Charisma though. ;(

@Anoplexian You were rolling in order?

Yes.

@Anoplexian ah, you guys rolled stats. got it. yea. that will do it.

@Anoplexian that's hardcore

Can paladins even function with a 6 charisma score?

@MikeQ They can quite well with 17 Con and Int.

Only a single Divine Sense though.

@MikeQ Just don't cast spells requiring a DC :)

I have to be VERY judicious about when I use it however.

@Anoplexian It' sfine, it's rarely actually useful.

I've kind of morphed into a tank more than a paladin.

DM provided a shield to my character, so AC of 18.

Chainmail is so strong.

@Anoplexian hurts your total prepared spells list, too. But most of hte time, you'll be using them for divine smites or use for buffs like shield of faith/bless.

Are there ways to raise Cha?

@Anoplexian not many, but some.

See if you can convince the DM that you have the charisma of roadkill so you can raise dead on it

It's a meme if I remember correctly.

@goodguy5 That's from the 4chan fumble chart

@Anoplexian same joke, but with a comic

@Anoplexian ASIs, Very rare Tome of Leadership, ioun stone

I take it that I'm going to need to raise some funding for it.

Luckily, I looted the body of our rogue.

@Anoplexian Leveling up and a magical tome

@goodguy5 no belt/headdress/glove for Charisma. It's just the Tome or the Ioun stone.

And boy did he roll good for wealth.

You could also engineer a plot whereby memetic possession warps your character's mind in the image of a fell and sinister being, albeit one that is way more charismatic

@NautArch The ioun stone was what I was trying to think of

I haven't levelled yet, so I may see what that can do./

You can also get reincarnated as something with high cha

I've looked into this after a particular bad critical fumble left me with a max charisma of 16.

@goodguy5 Reincarnate only affects physical stats, no?

@SPavel I thought it was all racial bonuses

@SPavel If you become a half-elf, you get the +2 cha

ah boo

So much for my "half-elf in a dwarf's body, raised by orcs" that gets all the bonuses

@SPavel What about a half-elf, half-dwarf, that was raised by a dragonborn-orc couple

@MikeQ with a very involved variant human grandparent

M I N D F L A Y E R M O T H E R I N L A W

I'm thinking I might try multiclassing as a Wizard. Any cons I should know about being a Paladin/Wizard?

@Anoplexian The other paladins will think you are a nerd, otherwise not really

@Anoplexian You need 13 cha for that

@Szega ? I thought it was 13 for Warlock and Sorc, not Wizard?

Wizard is 13 Int no?

@Anoplexian for paladin

you gotta qualify for both ends

Yea. you need the requisite score to LEAVE your class, as well

Ah, gotcha.

@Anoplexian Paladizard? What are you trying to gain by branching out of paladin?

So I need to hit.....lvl 4 then with all points but 1 on Cha?

@MikeQ Smite spell slots?

^

Also, other spells as well.

Maybe some good use of my Int roll.

@Anoplexian you only get 2 pts, so starting at 6... no dice

@Anoplexian I wouldn't minimize or delay your paladin progression.

delaying extra attack is big.

@Szega 2 points per level, 6 Cha, 7 points, 4 levels no?

So lvl 5 (start at 1, not 0, my b)

also...how do aura's work with a negative modifier? THat could be...bad.

nevermind, minimum bonus of +1.

@NautArch If only it worked that way. Party forced the paladin to stand at a distance at all times

From what I can tell, it's definitely a priority to get my CHA up.

Like he has a bad smell

@Anoplexian the aura of protection at 6th level is a big deal (for you and for others.)

I'm not sure if I'm actually that generous.

Because it seems like my party is trying to kill me.

@Anoplexian it's good for you, too. Paladins are save machines.

Damn elves...

especially if you're doing a buff like bless or shield of faith. YOu don't want to lose that concentration.

Yeah.

Unfortunatley, that's also where using an ASI to get the resilient Feat (CON) or Warcaster is important to help maintain concentration, too

@NautArch For concentration?

@SirCinnamon yeah

@NautArch Smort

@NautArch you gotta go 2 dip into war mage (XGtE). then you never fail a save ;)

Yea, but Time Weasel let's you avoid the save and has fewer score restrictions.

@goodguy5 Time Weasel lets you rewrite the past action, making it so you never needed to make the save in the first place.

@GreySage exactly

Very foggy in eagle world

Time Weasel is not a Super Temporal Vote

@goodguy5 Time weasels do not enjoy a democracy

@DavidCoffron i hadn't read that sublcass yet. THat's a pretty cool subclass!

@Anoplexian You do not get 2 pts every level, only every 4 (approx)

@Anoplexian trying to kill you? Has your table discussed PvP and/or this type of attitude?

Here's a fun DM question - in what scenarios would you allow pvp

@SirCinnamon IN a scenario that I created :)

@SirCinnamon If it was communicated to the players beforehand that pvp was an option, and they expressed that they would like to do it

@SirCinnamon if my players are all on board, whenever. If not, almost never

bbc.com/culture/story/…

@SirCinnamon Or, if it's low-consequences "friendly" pvp, like "The adventurers compete in a Dire Pepper eating contest"

@MikeQ This is my stance - some sort of competition

Never to the death, never for any extremely high stakes

@MikeQ Dire Pepper eating is not low-consequences! I am the best Dire Pepper eater this side of the moonsea

And the consequences/rewards of the "friendly" PVP should not be significant

Different players have different levels of skill and familiarity with whatever system you're playing, so some will have advantages over others in a competitive scenario

@MikeQ As well as people who make a conscious decision to not optimize everything about their character

Picking spells for in character reasons instead of purely for their optimization etc.

This is one of the places where the social contract comes in: If any of the players have joined under the presumption that the game is cooperative, then surprising them with competitive play will cause unrest at the table -- it's an unpleasant feeling to "lose" at a cooperative game.

@SirCinnamon This sentence does not compute: Segfault explodes

@GreySage Thank god segfaults dont explode my computer, I would have been killed years ago

@NautArch I don't think it's intentional, I think it's more a case of common sense not being strong with those in my party.

@goodguy5 Only Commoners get it as a class feature

That should be a skill for 5e.

"Roll for common sense".

@MikeQ omg! That explains it!

@Anoplexian That's already essentially the extent of the 5e skill system

@Spavel Never! As far as I can tell, this skill would eliminate a lot of the funny stories in which a character does something uncharacteristically dumb, such as try to push someone off a spike from the back rather than pulling out the spike.....

@Anoplexian Alternatively, the DM can use the most powerful tool they have, even though most DMs don't realize it: The ability to say "no"