TRPG General Chat

Ben

00:07

That storm hit, was torrential rain, causing power trips, the shop downstairs got flooded, trees fell, a lightning bolt hit just across the road, then was over in 20 mins

trogdor

I wish our storms were all over in 20 minutes

Ben

Welcome to queensland

Shalvenay

hey there @trogdor

trogdor

Hello

Shalvenay

yanno, I'm actually hoping we'll get some time for early-in-the-game party congealment RP :) considering how much backstory seems to be floating around between us

trogdor

00:24

I would not be against that

Shalvenay

01:08

@trogdor this also has me researching tooling for character modeling, because dangit, Korv, now I kinda want to make a pic of my char but I'm nowhere nearly good enough to draw it yet

trogdor

I only ever drew one of my characters

Shalvenay

yeah, I've tried drawing a character of mine once, but it didn't come out to anything useful

I'm still at the still-life stage of things

Adeptus

01:38

I'm quite fond of HeroMachine. V2 is easy to use, but only has the fixed pose. V3 is much more powerful but also more complicated... I haven't gotten the hang of it.

Shalvenay

@Adeptus yeah, HM is a) Flash based (which limits its usefulness) and b) annoyingly cartoonish for some of the things I want to do

hey there @nitsua60

KorvinStarmast

03:17

@Shalvenay search on line for tabaxi ... and see what you find.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, will try that

KorvinStarmast

I wish I could still free hand sketch as I used to do ... but as I got older the hands betray me. :(

My figs painting is awful now. :(

Shalvenay

darn :/

so @KorvinStarmast -- yeah, the El Faro was quite a long and comprehensive investigation and report (I read the whole thing). did you catch the other report link I sent you btw? (that'd be the Saputi's not-quite-a-wreck, aka the un-Titanic)

@KorvinStarmast and yeah, comin' up with nothin' satisfactory :/

Adeptus

04:43

@KorvinStarmast My eyesight is more of a problem. I bought a magnifying visor with lights, so I can see the fine details well enough...

Was I talking to someone here about dog-riding halfling miniatures? Ral Partha Europe has 15mm fantasy figures as well as 28mm. I asked them if their 15mm human/elf riders would fit on a 28mm dog. They didn't know, so gave it a try... and it works pretty well. Good fit on a 28mm great dane or boar

(next to 28mm figure for comparison)

Shalvenay

@Adeptus hins on pigs :D

Adeptus

I was working on a 3.5 halfling paladin/ranger build, where the riding dog counts as both Special Mount and Animal Companion. But I doubt I'll get to play it now - my group is moving on to 5e (after a detour into old-school Tunnels & Trolls).

doppelgreener

07:52

Bellerophon

Does anyone know if in DnD 5e you roll for damage once per target or just once overall to determine hail of thorns damage?

Miniman

@Bellerophon Just once - there's a general rule about it in the spellcasting chapter.

Ben

09:43

@doppelgreener Accurate

doppelgreener

.... that helmet needs more air holes though, come to think of it

There was a battle fought in 1415, the Battle of Agincourt, where the defeated side suffered colossal casualties. By sheer numbers France should've won and crushed the English soldiers, but they lost nearly ten thousand men, and by all counts more than ten times the number of soldiers the English lost.

Many of them specifically simply exhausted themselves trudging through the mud in their plate armor, and reports were that many of them even suffocated in their armor -- enough air couldn't get through for their exertion.

So... Helmet. Airholes. Many. Very important.

Ben

@doppelgreener Yes. This

doppelgreener

(The Battle of Agincourt was such a phenomenal, overwhelming victory for the English that it is credited as turning the tide of the entire Hundred Years War in their favour)

Ben

Got a tank army charging at you? Find the wekness and exploit it

Which was the point of these questions

doppelgreener

10:12

Yeah. :D

In that case they were on either end of a muddy field, and the horses went and churned up the mud further.

kviiri

10:42

@doppelgreener The French scored a pretty impressive KDR in the final major battle of the HYW at Castillon (wikipedia), too. I was a bit dismayed when I discovered this - the Age of Empires II scenario based on Castillon is not among the easiest ones...

(and the player's side is the French)

doppelgreener

@kviiri that is impressive, jeez

kviiri

The HYW was a rather senseless waste, but the alt-historical implications of the English winning are interesting. England-France would be a rather powerful empire in the early modern era.

KorvinStarmast

12:08

@Shalvenay did not get to saputi yet

@Adeptus I have been tempted to do that for a few years, the magnifying light, might do that ...

SPavel

14:34

My favorite #DnD creatures are the owlbear, the displacer beast, and the updog.

Tweeted by DungeonFacts on February 20, 2018 at 1:05 PM

dot_Sp0T

@SPavel classy

NautArch

14:56

waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/zmyzj5/…

SPavel

@NautArch Moral quicksand is my favourite dungeon hazard

PCs don't realize they have encountered it, and there is no saving throw

NautArch

@SPavel and the deeper you go, the harder it is to escape

SPavel

@NautArch Typically the PCs never realize, or if they do, they are far enough past the moral event horizon that if they become even more evil, they get phat bonuses

Magician

15:18

@NautArch The irony of declaring a whole species as unworthy of empathy in an article against "mind-controlling Nazis" aside, it misses the point of both worldbuilding and storytelling. Knowing how ilithids view themselves is useful if you're going to portray them and their plots. Learning the villain's side of the story doesn't mean the players will agree with them.

SPavel

@Magician In my experience, PCs are suckers for "we were wrongly accused and attacked etc etc" stories

Who doesn't like to help an underdog, especially when the other party is also evil, and the rewards are great?

Magician

There's "we were wrongly accused", and then there's "we enslave civilizations and eat people's brains, and have no intention of stopping"

SPavel

@Magician Yeah but they're not doing it in front of the PCs right now

Unless they found the Elder Brain's diary where it outlines exactly that plan

And even then

Magician

@SPavel We're talking about ilithids here, they probably are. That's all they do.

SPavel

@Magician Now now, they also have exquisite taste in ivory crafts

And by ivory, I mean the dessicated skulls of their victims

But what PC would give up a chance to have their very own Skull Throne?

NautArch

15:22

I think it's less 'wrongly accused' and more "we are being wiped out, if we don't fight back, we will be lost as a species"

Magician

I haven't read any of 5e, but I'd be surprised if at any point the books tried to say the ilithid empire wasn't thaaaat bad, had trains running on time or what have you.

SPavel

Ethergaunts are a better antagonist race anyway

Threw off the yoke of the gods, spend their time chilling in the Ethereal Plane doing science and being logical and not eating brains

Magician

@NautArch I've not had players who wouldn't go "yes, good" at that point. Now, if you had veganlithids who claimed to only eat soy brains and not enslave anyone much at all really, that'd be an interesting conundrum for the players.

NautArch

@Magician I don't think it's about "they weren't bad", it more about total destruction of a species and normally that's something that storytelling tries to stop?

SPavel

The interesting thing is that the Elder Brains are to illithids what illithids are to humans

Magician

15:25

@NautArch Not if the species is abhorently evil. No one's shedding tears over parasites going extinct.

NautArch

But yeah, I don't see it as a problem. No one cried, "that poor Virus!" when smallpox was eliminated

SPavel

That's the fun part, not soy brains - what would the race be like if they didn't have immortal vats driving them to fatten themselves up on grey matter?

nitsua60

I think illithids 1.0 are already conundrum enough. I feel like it doesn't take much to get from "species has telepathy + telekinesis" to "species without those are animals" (as a reasonable illithid POV). And plenty of us eat animals....

SPavel

I could see a fun campaign where the PCs led a mind flayer proletarian revolution and overthrew their elder brain masters

NautArch

@nitsua60 that's a very good point. And slavery was A-OK for a lot of human civilizations.

nitsua60

15:27

I've always assumed that an illithid observing how we physically contact each other all the time views us about the same as I do stags rutting in the forest.

SPavel

@nitsua60 illithids literally drip slime from their mouths 24/7

nitsua60

So do I--I just swallow more often. I don't have the anatomy to keep the drippage free of my garments like they do. (They can hold their tentacles out from their robes, right?)

SPavel

@nitsua60 You have lips. Illithids don't.

They have beaks, and their beaks drip goo all day, and there's not much they can do about it

Magician

Considering they don't actually eat the brains, AFAIR, I don't see why they'd have saliva. Psychic energy doesn't need moistening.

SPavel

They do eat brains

They eat the brain and then vomit their saliva into the empty cavity to make voidminds

nitsua60

15:30

@SPavel I'm not sure I'm following your point? Are you saying that because they drip slime they can't think of non-sentient creatures (i.e. those without tele-*) as animals?

Magician

@SPavel Hmmm. That might be 5e thing, cool.

SPavel

@nitsua60 My point is that they don't have a high ground when it comes to being gross

@Magician No idea, my 5e knowledge is spotty, in 3e they ate brains

Magician

...I'm too lazy to pull out Lords of Madness to check, so I'll take your word for it.

nitsua60

@SPavel Are you serious or just joking around? I may have lost a cue somewhere?

SPavel

What if a Good Mind Flayer ran a terminal care hospice

Eat the brains of the dying elderly, they should be delicious from all those age bonuses to mental scores

Sell a Miraculous Brain Tonic that is advertised to boost intelligence (in reality: makes the brains tastier when consumed over time)

Yuuki

15:42

@SPavel How does Alzheimer's or dementia affect your mental score?

🤔

SPavel

@Yuuki No stats for Alzheimer's

Ergo, it doesn't!

nyam nyam nyam

NautArch

@Yuuki pretty easy to fix. It's just a disease.

nitsua60

I'm a ~~little~~ lot uncomfortable with this line ^^. Mind taking it to the Not A Bar?

(Remember that not all cultures view (a) euthenasia and (b) declining mental faculties in the same lights.)

goodguy5

so much trouble keeping this damned thread op. high all

NautArch

@nitsua60 I'm sorry, I was applying Alzheimers to 5e. It was not supposed to be offensive, but that disease in 5e is easily resolved.

nitsua60

15:52

@NautArch no worries--I don't think you need to apologize, but I also think if it were to go further I wouldn't really want someone stumbling into it.

NautArch

VTC as unclear?

@nitsua60 Fair enough and agreed. But taking that leap from a discussion of stats is a big one :)

eimyr

hiya!

GreySage

My early morning surprise: Bronze dnd-5e badge

goodguy5

oooh

NautArch

@GreySage mazel tov!

NautArch

16:36

did some meta searching, but failed to find if a specific question that is a subset of a general question already existing would qualify as a Duplicate. Does anyone know? Thinking specifically about this general vs a specific example

goodguy5

I think that the specific example you sited wouldn't be a duplicate.

however, I agree that the category of a specific question already being answered by a broad question would be "duplicate".

NautArch

@goodguy5 then why wouldn't that be a dupe? Because of the fire damage edge case?

goodguy5

I could see an argument either way, but I'd say it's different because of the fire yea

noneuklid

17:02

I linked the general case, but didn't tag the specific one as a duplicate for basically that reason.

Rubiksmoose

9

Q: If an answer to question A can be found in question B, should we close A as duplicate of B?

Situation — there are two different questions Aq and Bq. Question Aq has a specific answer Aa. Question Bq has a good detailed answer, which includes points Aa, Ba and Ca. Should Aq be closed as a duplicate of Bq? Or does "duplicate" imply that Bq has to be a duplicate of Aq as well?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose that's not quite the same thing. I'm not looking at duplicate answers of different questions.

it's more Question A is a subset of Question B. If Question B is answered, is Question A necessary?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch the answer to the question outlines very well the reasons we consider something a duplicate (including a mention of subset cases)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Given that answer, i'm having a hard time thinking it's not a duplicate. The fire damage is different, but it's still the monster weapon as a PC weapon. ANd that's been answered.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I don't think they are duplicates.

The general question is about attack bonuses and to hit bonuses, not bonus damage for one thing.

NautArch

17:07

@Rubiksmoose that's fair enough reason

although the answers (and the body of the question )DO include damage

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch but answers are absolutely irrelevant when considering duplicates

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose True, so I guess because the question didn't ask about damage bonuses (but the body does), it's not a dupe?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch well the title and the body are both part of the question so they are both considered of course.

This is my logic of course, and I might be incorrect.

But just focusing on the damage part of the question, it is specifically talking about the xdx +6 part of the damage. The specific question is asking about bonus elemental damage that is not part of that unit and asking if it is a weapon property or not.

I see that as being different enough. Plus, not even the accepted answer deals with the topic of that kind of bonus damage.

NautArch

fair enough - i guess the elemental damage moves it into non-dupe territory.

Rubiksmoose

IMO at least it does

0

Q: Casting mislead while in the ethereal plane

If mislead is cast while the spellcaster is in the Border Ethereal (from the etherealness spell), is the illusory copy created in the ethereal plane? If yes, then would it remain there also after the caster have interrupted its etherealness and so he would still be able to perceive using the sens...

dnd-5e spells illusion

@NautArch Now look at this one

GreySage

17:18

@Rubiksmoose Looks fine to me, they are different, if very similar, spells.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage Agreed. Though it seems that not everybody does.

btw @NautArch how are you feeling? last time we talked you were sick I think.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose still sick, but getting better

still not really eating, though.

Rubiksmoose

17:33

@NautArch well sad to hear that you are still sick, but getting better is better than the alternative I guess.

@NautArch :-(

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yeah, i've been on a steady diet of bread and butter and broth mostly.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh dear :-( well I hope your recovery is quick at least and as painless as possible.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I'm guessing another week of this - but at least i'm back at work.

SPavel

@NautArch Back at work while still sick?

Careful not to infect the office (unless that is your plan - while everyone is away you grab project lead on the lucrative accounts)

NautArch

@SPavel definitely not my plan. I'd screw things up if folks got it, but my hope is that one week into the illness that i'm no longer contagious.

and i've got a major person leaving the company that i have to try and find a replacement for.

can't just stay home :(

SPavel

17:43

@NautArch You're HR?

NautArch

@SPavel small business owner. I'm a lot of everything :)

SPavel

@NautArch what sort of business are you small in?

NautArch

@SPavel medical compression

SPavel

@NautArch So you are small because you are good at compression?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch sounds like a high pressure job

NautArch

17:51

@Rubiksmoose it's tight

SPavel

Also if it's not ironic that someone in the medical field is working sick, it's at least irony-adjacent

Like bronzy or maybe tinny

KorvinStarmast

18:05

@Magician Volos Guide to Monsters has an extensive treatment of the Illithids (which I have not memorized) but I don't recall seeing their being portrayed as benevolent dictators ... and the gith certainly weren't happy with them ...

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast regarding your edit on my post, I'm not sure that "Damage Per Round" is more clear than "Damage in a Round". As "per", to me, implies a sustained value, rather than a single burst.

NautArch

18:23

vote to reopen?

goodguy5

I also need to try to convince my question reopened :-|

SPavel

@goodguy5 Which question?

goodguy5

2

Q: What is maximum single-target damage per round using Action Surge?

What is the most effective way to use a level 20 character's (with two or more levels in fighter) Action Surge ability in order to maximize single target damage done in one round? As a baseline, let's use a level 20 Champion (20 Str, Great Weapon Fighting style, Greatsword) vs. a Death Knight (A...

dnd-5e optimization damage fighter

noneuklid

i think i'm going to die on the hill of judicial activism.

goodguy5

oh hey there

dope fighter build

noneuklid

18:35

ty. i liked your question. good to stretch those muscles in 5th.

i was honestly hoping to see some more activity on it, because i don't think i hit the top at all. (also, i was waiting for someone to say, "2nd level fighter/18th level Divine Soul")

goodguy5

heh

GreySage

@noneuklid I'm working on a 2fighter/18wizard

noneuklid

you monster.

GreySage

I mean, at 18 you can meteor swarm which already does 40d6 damage

goodguy5

I've been toying with that one myself.

I can't figure out anything that is worth casting at 8th level.

noneuklid

18:40

we all know 5th is basically "the warts of 3rd without the combat rules." let's pretend that there's at least some good martial build out there.

goodguy5

maximized cone of cold I guess

GreySage

@goodguy5 Yeah, it seems like it jumps from 12d6 to 40d6 from 8 to 9

goodguy5

40d6+5 +64+5
~.6*(145+69) =~128

noneuklid

but what if the caster was an elf with E-acc? or a halfling.

goodguy5

that doesn't help with spells, iirc

noneuklid

18:43

e-acc helps any attack roll other than strength or uh... con, which i don't think ever actually happens.

as long as you can get advantage, and i'm sure there's a way

halfling reduces miss chance for any attack by between 0.25% and 5% depending on ac

er 0.25% and 4.75%, sorry

tangentially related, my current favorite build is a horse-riding halfling rogue.

goodguy5

because an ally is always within 5 feet of the enemy. love it

NautArch

@goodguy5 I think it's on hold because it's still pretty loose with being able to go Spellcasting or Melee/ranged attack for the answer.

goodguy5

I was looking through the theurge arcane tradition for wizard, hoping there'd be some OP cleric shit I could do, but alas.

noneuklid

@goodguy5 aside from that, you can always sneak attack when you're on a horse.

(well, with mounted combatant.) i forgot, it's an axe-wielding halfling.

goodguy5

@NautArch, I don't see how that's loose. "do the most damage vs one thing" seems like a valid question. I've added a 2-level restriction to get action surge.

"single biggest melee attack" was a valid question, without specifying class.

NautArch

18:51

@goodguy5 Yes, but single biggest melee attack is separate from single biggest spell.

noneuklid

@goodguy5 oh, the ambiguity? well -- i didn't mind it, but the target, conditions of the fight, and conditions of the character other than having 2 fighter levels are vague.

goodguy5

Hrm. I've been trying to narrow it down more and more.

noneuklid

like, does my "add 20d6 by pushing them off a ledge" bit work? does the silver-tongued skill check? if i roll for divine intervention as a cleric, does god punch him for me?

goodguy5

I was amused that darkwanderer suggested damage to self... I assume just eatinga bunch of purple worm venom

noneuklid

personally, i'd prefer if the question was ambiguous enough to allow for some odd answers, but i can see why it might be concerning for SE

NautArch

18:55

@noneuklid it's basically comparing the answer i linked to on highest single melee damage (with the removal of the paladin divine smite damage to replace with fighter for action surge) vs the most damaging spell for a single target

@noneuklid I would also probably remove the 'baseline'. It's not necessary and confuses the quesiton.

noneuklid

I'm not sure if there can be an "accepted"-quality answer without having the fight conditions clearly lain out. In the single-attack model, it's easier to assume it's just "a punching bag on a flat plain (or plane)."

being able to manipulate the target in some capacity is going to play heavily into what you can do in one round.

NautArch

@noneuklid I thought your question was specifically highest damage total?

that's not manipulation of target.

noneuklid

@NautArch if it's a fighter/rogue, can they surprise the target? because that's going to play heavily into how much damage they do.

The Oracle

0

Q: Can I used a bleeped-out-swear if that's the name of the article I'm referencing?

I know there's a pretty strict policy on swear words on this site. I just wrote an answer referencing an article by The Angry Gm, the title of which is How to Build F$&%ing Awesome Encounters! I cited it pretty much exactly like that ^ in my answer. Is it okay to use a swear word like that given...

discussion

NautArch

@noneuklid If it's their action surge, then probably not. Unless you're surging before you do your main action/attack.

noneuklid

19:02

@NautArch the question is for the round in total, not for specifically the action-surge portion. "Using action surge" is just to limit the build possibilities.

goodguy5

It was less "to limit build possibilities" and more "that's the thought I had."

NautArch

@noneuklid ahhh, i don't think that's clear (enough.) I had read it as damage from the Action Surge. Not total damage for the round. Is your question really "What's the maximum damage that can be dealt by a 20th level character with at least two levels of Fighter?"

noneuklid

that's a question for @goodguy5, but that's how it seems to parse.

NautArch

@goodguy5 Is this what you're looking for? "What's the maximum damage in a single round that can be dealt by a 20th level character with at least two levels of Fighter?"

noneuklid

although, if someone can help me word a question, I'd love to ask what the highest damage with TTK>50 a 10th level character can survive without any external instantaneous healing is.

NautArch

19:11

@noneuklid ttk?

noneuklid

Time To Kill. Uh...

like, is there a build that could survive 50 damage per round without a cleric? how about 100?

NautArch

huh?

noneuklid

for at least 50 rounds

NautArch

um...50 rounds is ridiculously long. Most combats don't even last 10 rounds.

noneuklid

that's the idea; it's basically 'how much damage could you take indefinitely', or 'how much damage is non-threatening'

NautArch

19:15

that's almost definitely going to be too broad for this site. There are too many variables.

goodguy5

@NautArch

yes

noneuklid

I think I specified them all pretty well, but it makes the question ridiculously long and complex.

NautArch

@goodguy5 was that yes to reformatting of your quesiton? If so, I can take a crack at cleaning up the question and body for you.

noneuklid

i guess i'd have to say "assuming bludgeoning damage" or something like that.

goodguy5

yes, it was

NautArch

19:16

@noneuklid much more than that. You have too many variables.

@goodguy5 okay, gimme a minute...

goodguy5

oooh, thank you!

noneuklid

What are a couple of the variables?

(this is, after all, why i'm asking for help with this question.)

NautArch

@goodguy5 i'm kinda stuck on reliable effects. I don't think you should include them if you're asking for single turn damage. Using round opens that up, but then it opens up opportunities for every other character class. And OA is just as 'reliable' as an Attack or something requiring a saving throw.

GreySage

@goodguy5 Meteor Swarm + Upcast Cone of Cold cast by an Evoker using Overchannel and Empower Evocation does 196.7 damage (expected) to a Death Knight

goodguy5

I don't recall what empower evo does

GreySage

19:19

+ [Int mod] to evocation spells

noneuklid

damnit, now i have to get that damn archer another 8-22 damage.

NautArch

@noneuklid number of rounds, abilities/items to heal, fight setup, etc. Most importantly, even if you had a cleric, any 10th level character will die in after 50 rounds of damage.

goodguy5

and I was trying to allow affects that tick on the enemies turn, while not allowing reaction attacks

why would an enemy allow an attack from someone that just did 100+ damage

GreySage

Oh, and you also do that much damage to pretty much everything you can see

NautArch

@goodguy5 I would recommend removing anything that isn't dealt by the primary creature at time of attack to keep it clean.

goodguy5

19:21

wait, can you overchannel a 5th level spell that's in an 8th level slot?

noneuklid

i specified number of rounds, that instantaneous effects (including items) are forbidden. i can't think of any cases where the fight setup would matter since the incoming damage is simply assumed at some number.

goodguy5

So, you think that damage that occurs "at the beginning/end of the affected creature's turn" should be off-limits?

noneuklid

and even 2nd or 3rd level characters can live for 50 rounds if the damage is low enough...

NautArch

@goodguy5 I would, just make it single turn damage.

@noneuklid you've got a 3rd level character with more than 50 HP? How'd that happen?

goodguy5

what about thief shennanigans?

NautArch

19:24

Assume barbarian with con 20. That's going to be a maximum of 51 HP if they rolled 12s for level 2 and 3.

GreySage

@goodguy5 Now that a bunch of stuff was edited out of your question, you might want to add your Champion 20 as an answer (when it is reopened)

goodguy5

okies

noneuklid

yup. a human or tiefling could have even higher hp than that.

NautArch

@goodguy5 advantage and effets that go off that I think are fine. easy to get that.

@noneuklid how?

noneuklid

feral tiefling gets +1 hp per level, humans qualify for a bonus feat at 1st level, including Tough or Inspiring Leader

goodguy5

19:27

Human Barbarian with Toughness, I assume
12+7+7 + 5*3 = 41?

that's as high as I can get

unless you're rolling

SPavel

Of course, if they see you rollin, they might try to catch you ridin dirty

so there are trade-offs

Yuuki

It's the Belt of the Massive Sponge. Gives +30 HP.

@SPavel Haters gonna hate.

goodguy5

@naut

SPavel

@Yuuki No, that's Taylor Swift

goodguy5

@NautArch I think rogues should consider their enemies surprised

rather than to have advantage

NautArch

19:30

@goodguy5 I guess if you're rolling then you'd get 57 max with a v. human Tough Barbarian. And odds are they're doing more than 1 point of damage per round. Just not a possible question.

Yuuki

@SPavel Taylor Swift, Weird Al, same person.

NautArch

@goodguy5 You can give them surprised, sure. Open up Assassinate and not just Sneak Attack. However - surprise is NOT easy to get. If you want to assume the reature is surprised, we can add that.

goodguy5

Any damage calculation for 1 turn would use surprise stats, anyway

SPavel

@Yuuki No that's Chamillionaire

Weird Al is riding nerdy

Yuuki

@SPavel Melinda Gates, Chamillionaire, same person.

noneuklid

19:32

@NautArch that's at third level, with no gear and nothing particularly interesting in the build. also, a lot of the damage players care about is going to be fractional.

NautArch

@goodguy5 added attack and surprise to the question.

noneuklid

for example, at 3rd level a kobold will usually only be dealing about 0.35 damage per turn to a paladin or fighter.

goodguy5

I had already edited it :-\

NautArch

@noneuklid C'mon man :) 57 HP is the highest possible HP total for a 3rd level PC (assuming 20 Con as well.)

noneuklid

@NautArch it isn't, and we're talking about 10th level. ;p

SPavel

19:34

"By Crom! What arbalester goes into battle lacking a full quiver?" bellowed Conan. He hurled the empty stapler across the office contemptuously, felling a passing IT technician.

Tweeted by ConanSalaryman on February 9, 2018 at 9:00 PM

NautArch

@noneuklid Well, we can't use fighter/paladin if you want that d12. So that immediately drops the HP by 6. Then they're dealing 1d4+2 per hit.

noneuklid

right. but they're hitting only on a nat 20.

NautArch

@noneuklid we're shifting goalposts. You brought up a 3rd level character could survive 50 rounds. Are we going back to 10th level? And what are they fighitng? If you pick the lowest damage dealing creature, then yeah - it's going to be easier to find something works.

SPavel

A 3rd level character could survive 50 rounds if he runs fast enough

noneuklid

hahah, yes.

SPavel

19:37

Or if he has 50 lower-level friends

goodguy5

@NautArch I don't know how I feel about the "assume advantage" caveat.

noneuklid

So, my original question was about a 10th level character, about which I know very little, including the damage that is survivable per round.

You asserted no one at 10th level could possibly survive 50 rounds -- but we know that isn't true, since it can happen at a lower level if the damage is low enough.

The question is how much higher that damage can get -- does it get high enough to matter, or not?

NautArch

this could be my first downvoted but selected answer.

Yuuki

Actually, just because a lower level character can survive 50 rounds against low-level monsters doesn't necessarily guarantee that a higher level character can survive 50 rounds with a high-level monster.

NautArch

@noneuklid I don't think that's true, though. You had said it's possible with a 3rd level character. If we choose the weakest possible enemy, and assume they miss a LOT, then yeah. i guess it's possible. But those are the variables that make it impossible. What type of enemy? How many? Can it die? etc. etc.

goodguy5

19:39

I like the thought that you're affecting the player, not the character

But I also think that it goes against the spirit of the ethereal

NautArch

@goodguy5 I still stand by that one even with the Etherealness spell :) But I don't get how this is confusing. The DMG says what can't happen on the Ethereal plan (attacks), and Portent is not an attack.

@goodguy5 Of the Ethereal Plane or against the spirit of Etherealness?

goodguy5

Against the game concept of the Ethereal Plane

It's for snooping and chillin, not for twisting the fate of your enemies

noneuklid

@NautArch None of those things matter to answer the actual question, though, since we're looking for the per-round damage that's survivable. It doesn't make sense to attribute it to an attack for the purposes of this question; it's consistent for every round. The example of a weak enemy is only to illustrate that even per-round damages of less than 1 are meaningful.

goodguy5

also @NautArch I undid your change. I don't like it.

GreySage

@NautArch I bet even a level 1 wizard could survive 50 rounds of fighting a tree

noneuklid

19:43

@GreySage Not if they level up from it with a low natural Con.

NautArch

@goodguy5 fair enough! It's your question :) Do you not want to assume advantage?

goodguy5

@GreySage you can't overchannel an upcast spell.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67811/if-a-spell-is-cast-using-a-higher-level-spell-slot-can-it-be-overchanneled

NautArch

@GreySage I don't believe a Tree is a monster :)

Yuuki

@GreySage I dunno, what if they cast Firebolt, the tree catches on fire, a branch falls off, smacks the wizard on the head (bludgeoning damage) and sets him on fire (recurring fire damage)?

goodguy5

and naut, no. I don't want to assume advantage

noneuklid

19:44

@goodguy5 are conditions that give the character advantage permissible with explanation?

GreySage

Whoa, thats a lot of tags

noneuklid

after all, my entire schtick is about getting advantage to offset the sharpshooter hit penalty.

goodguy5

Otherwise, champion3/evo wizard + meteor storm and scorching ray

NautArch

@goodguy5 Okay, that's a legitimate requirement. You may want to explicitly add that so that people don't assume.

goodguy5

yes, noneuklid

NautArch

19:46

@goodguy5 meteor storm only does 120 max. That's nowhere near this

GreySage

@NautArch Meteor Swarm does 240 damage max, 140 expected (if the save fails)

@goodguy5 I forgot about scorching ray

NautArch

@GreySage bah, missed the 2nd 20d6. That's still a max 240 vs 364. Still nowhere near.

although the problem is that build requires advantage.

noneuklid

sorry, @NautArch. i had to upvote you because you're right. the conditions of etherealness the spell are obviously different than the general effects of being in the border ethereal. now it's back at null rather than negative.

NautArch

@noneuklid booooo :) but thanks!

GreySage

@goodguy5 Scorching ray falls below Cone of Cold, even non-upcasted. Disintegrate is better than both, and I think Delayed Blast Fireball beats that (if you have the time to charge it up)

goodguy5

19:56

overchanneled cone of cold is really good.

NautArch

@goodguy5 did you want to add in the No Advantage? It makes a HUUUGE difference.

but by doing so, you effectively remove Rogue from the possibilities because that's how they get the majority of their damage.

goodguy5

done

I think Surprise grants sneak attack, right?

NautArch

@goodguy5 "unless you have a source for it" That's pretty vague. Are you saying you'd need to do something yourself to gain advantage (like Vengeance Paladin Vow of Enmity?"

goodguy5

yes

what should it say

NautArch

I'd probably say something like "If you can generate advantage yourself somehow, then you may do so"

noneuklid

20:00

"If a feat or ability available to you provides advantage," maybe. "somehow" still seems pretty vague.

goodguy5

God, I hate English

noneuklid

"I can generate advantage by offering my DM pizza!"

goodguy5

works for me

8 attacks for fighter, 8 slices of pizza

coincidence? or advantage

GreySage

Alright, if we can't upcast AND overchannel Cone of Cold, we have Metero Swarm + Delayed Blast Fireball (with 10 round of charging) for 184 expected damage (388 max)

NautArch

"if you can generate advantage without a 3rd party, you may do so"

noneuklid

20:04

@NautArch I'm on a horse.

GreySage

If we don't have the 10 rounds, then we use Disintegrate instead of DBF, for 173 expected damage

NautArch

@noneuklid I'm on a boat. So what? :D

noneuklid

Metro Swarm: Your target is hit by several subway cars in succession.

goodguy5

XD

GreySage

All of that is save based, using no magic items, 3rd party help, or even class optimization.

noneuklid

20:06

@NautArch Mounted Combatant provides advantage on all melee attack rolls as long as your target is smaller than your mount. Is the horse 3rd party?

NautArch

@noneuklid confused...are we talking about the 50 rounds or about @goodguy5's question?

noneuklid

the latter.

you helped clarify the 50 rounds thing a lot, but i'm still not sure how to put it into a subject line that won't confuse the hell out of everyone.

probably just 'more vague in title, clarified in body'

goodguy5

afk

NautArch

@noneuklid I'm not entirely sure how you surprise someone on a horse :) But that aside, I think that'd work for his question.

noneuklid

the same way you can't cast a spell that targets a corpse and turns it into an undead until dispelled, but, hey, welcome to 5th ed.

SPavel

20:16

@NautArch You sneak up on them?

or my personal favourite - disguise yourself and say "I'm your long lost son" and they will be very surprised

NautArch

@SPavel I would definitely be surprised if a horse asked me that.

@goodguy5 Would a familiar be okay for advantage? If so, then the original linked build for highest melee damage is back on by having the familiar help to get advantage.

SPavel

@NautArch Really? I thought you'd know to expect treachery from a horse

Yuuki

@SPavel In this room, the only animal I expect treachery from is a sheep.

Wait, does anyone else have an animal in their Gravatar? Does @trogdor count?

SPavel

@Yuuki Naturally - 99% are wolves in sheep's clothing

@nitsua60 is in the 60th percentile, comfortably in wolf territory

GreySage

21:10

I really want that question to be reopened now, I have a new total (245 + some other stuff)

NautArch

@GreySage Is it greater than the linked one I gave?

That's still over 300 :)

SPavel

That's the problem with that kind of question

It's basically a list question - what are all the ways I can do X

GreySage

@NautArch 245 expected with no items or consumables.

So yes it is greater

NautArch

@GreySage as with that one. HOw is is greater?

And that's still on a single attack. Action Surge provides another attack to add more (just no sneak attack on the 2nd hit)

GreySage

@NautArch The linked answer lists 222 as average damage without items. 245 > 222, so...

NautArch

21:23

@GreySage oh, i thought 245 was your max damage, not average.

yeah, 245 average > 222 average :) And it's less than that ecause no paladin divine smite. Takes 32 off that.

GreySage

My Aasimar Shadow Magic Sorcerer would also reroll up to 10 1's, but I honestly have no idea how to calculate that

NautArch

@GreySage but again, they get a 2nd attack. Which should generate all but sneak attack damage (which is very significant)

GreySage

433 max damage, or 513 if you choose the spell knowing you will do max damage (all hits and crits, all saves failed)

NautArch

@GreySage you're assuming you'll crit in your build?

or do you have a way to autocrit?

GreySage

@NautArch Not in expected damage, but for max damage yeah

NautArch

21:30

@GreySage Hmm, that's a tough thing to sell. At least the max damage in the link is automatic autocrit.

GreySage

@NautArch Well, if you're talking about max possible damage you're already assuming every roll is the highest it can be

Yuuki

trogdor

21:47

@Yuuki I have a little onion man and a dragon-angel guy

so kinda no

SPavel

@trogdor is mayonnaise an animal?

trogdor

no I would say not XD

not anymore anyway

SPavel

trogdor

hehe

Sora Tamashii

No rickPat, instrument is not a mayonnaise...

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