TRPG General Chat

Asteria

00:02

@Shalvenay danke

BESW

00:28

So, this is a thing I want to incorporate into a campaign some time:

Last month, archaeologists discovered a 300-pound sphinx buried under the California coast for generations. It’s not exactly a relic of an ancient civilization, though -- it was a set piece from director Cecil B. DeMille’s 1923 film “The Ten Commandments”

Tweeted by atlasobscura on December 14, 2017 at 8:15 PM

Because dude there's a whole fake Egypt buried in California.

It's captured my imagination for a long time.

trogdor

What if it was buried for a reason? That would be a cool game idea

Unlike IRL where I am sure they were just not interested in cleaning it up

Mithrandir

Hey, @BESW - I mentioned that I was looking for some feedback on an answer I wrote about Polynesian mythology, and nitsua60 suggested that you might be able/willing to help. If you'd be willing, I'd appreciate it :) scifi.stackexchange.com/a/176307/33591

(Also, hey - new avatar!)

nitsua60

@Mithrandir There's a reason. 'Tis the season.

I just need to preserve this one for the ages:

Shalvenay

hey there @Mithrandir

nitsua60

@Miniman's got jon skeet beat on the WB leaderboard.

(They've got the same number of hats, but miniman's rarest hat is rarer than jon's.)

Mithrandir

00:41

@Shalvenay hi!

Shalvenay

@Mithrandir how're things going?

BESW

@Mithrandir Well, first off I'd suggest not relying on Wikipedia for Pasifika information. Especially with the Moana material there's a TON of stuff written in the past two years about how it correlates, or fails to correlate, with existing traditions. That'll also get you a better sense of adherence or deviation to themes and respect for the culture, which is more important and doesn't actually have much to do with matching notes point-by-point.

Miniman

@nitsua60 You know, it never occurred to me to look at the network-wide leaderboard.

trogdor

@nitsua60 oh I thought you were preserving that because it is the best hat avatar combo that anyone will ever have XD :P

Mithrandir

@BESW scribbles note that Wikipedia is not a good source

BESW

00:43

May 18 at 4:06, by BESW

There are some good links to scholarship in this article.

May 18 at 4:02, by BESW

The themes of Moana are largely Disney and NOT Polynesian or Pasifika. Moana's personal journey is very Disney Princess; the depiction of a volcano as evil or bad or corrupted is downright offensive; Māui's portrayal is... well, Māui can be found in the stories and faiths of many different cultures and he's always a bit different, but it's hard to see the film's version in any of them. He's usually physically unimpressive but extremely clever, almost a trickster character.

nitsua60

@Miniman I was linked there from an interesting catija-monica colloquy on a meta.se question. Then I was curious how far down one had to go to get to rpgse. (I.e., to you.)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Now I feel like I have to get more hats to represent us...

nitsua60

@Miniman Run a search--assuming you've also searched at some point each of the last two days, that should get you a hat.

BESW

[rummages for link]

There's a good example in Māui...

Miniman

@nitsua60 Way ahead of you...although only thanks to trogdor.

I would've missed yesterday if he hadn't asked about it.

BESW

00:45

"Karlo Mila: Why Disney’s Maui is so wrong"

nitsua60

@Miniman "way ahead of you." Sure, rub it in.

=)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Well, clearly you need a competitive push to spur you along XD

nitsua60

@Miniman What I need is two more +3 answers and some edits to older posts. Sounds like time to read another decade's Dragon magazines....

BESW

It's not that what you're saying in the answer is inaccurate; but it's incomplete and largely irrelephant, because they kept a lot of the details but lost the heart and core of the thing.

Miniman

@nitsua60 I still need to come up with a self-answered question to post at 7pm.

Mithrandir

00:49

@BESW hmm. Okay, I'll have to do some more research.

BESW

Look for articles written by Polynesians.

nitsua60

@Miniman Oh, that's a hat? A few hours back I had an idea for a self-answer, but it's slipped my mind. (Another in the style of "difference b/w spellcasting and pact magic." One I feel like trips up plenty of people and needs some explaining.)

Miniman

@nitsua60 That's this year's BESW hat. The 7pm is a separate one, but no reason not to go for both in one go.

Mithrandir

@nitsua60 there's a hat for posting a self-answer and having both with a score of 3+.

There's a second hat for posting on the hour.

BESW

@Mithrandir Teresia Teaiwa collected some discussions here‌.

trogdor

00:51

@Miniman when did I do this thing?

Mithrandir

(Incidentally, I got both from the post I linked.)

nitsua60

@Mithrandir We usually use links for that sort of thing

Mithrandir

@BESW ah, thanks

Miniman

@trogdor In NAB, literally just now.

BESW

May 18 at 4:06, by BESW

There are some good links to scholarship in this article.

Mithrandir

00:52

@nitsua60 it's not a secret hat? Or is that a general rule for all hats?

nitsua60

I'm just messing with you.

=D

trogdor

@Miniman why were you talking about yesterday then?

Mithrandir

@nitsua60 ...it's 3AM, I'm going to miss things :P

Miniman

@trogdor From SE's POV, yesterday was an hour ago.

BESW

@Mithrandir Moana's relationship to Polynesia is a very active discussion in Pasifika communities, and has been before Disney first announced the project. There's a LOT of work done on it.

Miniman

00:53

Which is how I knew you didn't have the hat - it'd only been 2 days, not 3.

trogdor

@Miniman I though t it was 2 hours ago

That is what my vote timer said

At 8 in the morning it told me I had to wait an hour to vote again

BESW

Also, @Mithrandir, you'll find references to Disney's panel of Polynesian experts. This was their attempt to head off claims of appropriation at the pass, and very few Polynesian academics bought into it.

trogdor

So I thought that was an accurate timer for day roll over

BESW

There's a strong underlying question about who owns stories and who has the right to tell them, which Western copyright culture doesn't understand at all.

nitsua60

@BESW I just assumed that through merger and acquisition, Disney owned all the stories by now?

Mithrandir

00:56

Seems like this is a lot more complicated than I expected going in...

trogdor

@nitsua60 eww I hope not

BESW

Welcome to indigenous scholarship!

nitsua60

@trogdor I'm combining what I know of their portfolio with the notion that there are only 3/4/6/36 stories humans tell (depending on whom you ask).

BESW

@nitsua60 Disney has bought the legal privilege of deciding who can tell the stories without litigation. That's different from owning stories.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Pretty sure there's only one.

nitsua60

00:59

@Miniman There... can be only one?

Miniman

@nitsua60 It's Hero's Journey, in case you were wondering.

Mithrandir

One story to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them...

nitsua60

@Miniman That book is literally closer to my hand than is my glass of water.

trogdor

There are actually 8.2trillion stories

BESW

Eeew Campbell.

trogdor

01:00

Just not all of them are amusing enough to tell

nitsua60

@BESW I think it's Joseph?

=)

BESW

"If you're vague enough about the details and say that it's okay if you ignore anything that doesn't fit the theory, then any story will match my model!"

trogdor

Hero's journey is stupid

So reductionist

BESW

Like, straight up Moana is not a Polynesian story because it's resting on Hero's Journey tropes, and Polynesian stories don't buy into the epistemological assumptions about community and individuals which the Hero's Journey presupposes.

You can crack all the racist coconut jokes you want, it won't make a Disney Princess story any more Pasifika.

Skyler

What epistemological assumptions do Polynesian stories make that make them incompatible with the hero's journey?

in particular

nitsua60

01:05

So I get that the princess story isn't Pasifika, and that the coconuts are schlock, but (he asks, hesitantly) what's racist about the coconuts?

Skyler

I'd assume that obviously your referring to Polynesian mythology, given that once they interacted with other civilizations they could easily use archetypal story structures they saw in their stories within their own style.

BESW

01:39

@Skyler No, Pasifika peoples retain their own identity and worldview influenced by but not overshadowed by the other cultures that have been imposed on them.

The Disney Princess story is based on ways an individual interacts with her community--their sense of place and story and time, their obligation and what is due them, how they connect to the people and spaces around them--that doesn't sit comfortably in a Pasifika culture.

May 18 at 4:18, by BESW

...There was an unfortunate obesession with coconuts though. That's kind of a stereotype; coconut is important in the Pacific, but taro would realistically be the crop they were most worried about losing.

Skyler

@BESW Unless Pasifika is denoting one of those tribes that maintains technological isolation I think they've taken influences from the modern world, just like every other civilization. That's just the nature of the internet

BESW

@Skyler That's what I said.

There's a difference between a Western story type told by Pasifika peoples, and a story about Pasifika peoples that treats them as Westerners.

Skyler

oh ok so they are a pre-industrial civilization

BESW

...no.

Skyler

then are a people in a modern nation/state/part of state?

BESW

01:45

That doesn't matter.

Skyler

I guess I'm just haven't seen anything mentioned yet that actually denotes what is different about their worldview. (I also misread a little something you said earlier so it makes more sense now)

BESW

Then I suggest you read the articles I've linked above and have Polynesians tell you about their worldview.

I'm not Polynesian, nor am I any sort of indigenous Pasifika.

Skyler

But I'd trust that you might be able to give a quick summary so that I can read those articles with an eye for the useful details

BESW

I don't trust myself to do that.

daze413

@user2813274 A Wizard could also cast Slow on it, neutralizing his multiattack. Assuming a DC of 15 at that level, the dragon would have a 55% chance to fail on each saving throw. If the dragon is inside the keep at all, you could cast Shatter multiple times to bring it down on them, too.

unless you want to keep the keep (badumtss) intact

The Oracle

01:53

0

Q: Why can't magic sit with a more specific tag?

So, we have a magic tag. It's a fine tag, and there's nothing majorly wrong with it. Part of its usage advice in the tag wiki, though, says: Questions that merit more specific tags should not also use magic. Instead: Questions about the interpretation, use, or interactions of specif...

Skyler

@BESW why would that be the case if you don't mind me asking

BESW

Epistemology is about the process of knowing: how we know things and what we value knowing. It positions us in the world. I do not understand the Polynesian epistemology enough to express it clearly and concisely: most people can't even verbalize their own epistemologies, just like a fish has a hard time explaining "wet."

When you harvest taro, you cut off part of the corm and leave it in the field so a new plant grows.

A Western epistemology would tend to say that the moment of cutting off the corm is the most important moment because the next harvest relies on you: the present is significant because the future turns on it.

Skyler

I'd argue you don't really know most things if you can't start to verbalize/write about it, so I can see the sentiment for what you said but I think a self-defeating way to orient ones actions. Worst case scenario is that as I'm fumbling around trying to understand a view someone helps me adjust what I think of it.

BESW

A Pasifika epistemology is likely to say that present moment is the least important thing. It is created by the generations of past harvesters, and it is an obligation to the future harvesters. The focus is not on you and how the community depends on you, the focus is on the community stretching back and forward that you depend on.

Pasifika cultures "walk backward into the future." The present is the least important part of time, a moving blip defined by what came before and moving into what will be.

They're collectivist and communal.

Skyler

like that's a decent overview right there

thanks

BESW

01:59

In Narrative and Freedom: The Shadows of Time, Gary Saul shows that Soviet Russia sustained itself by positioning its people in a story.

The story was one of Soviet grandeur, earned by the suffering and hardship of its people.

Skyler

That's actually quite a bit more universal than just the Soviet Union. I mean the American Dream is just that with a different set of archetypes.

Shalvenay

hey there @daze413

BESW

The suffering of the people was not something which would create the future glory of their nation: it was a harbinger of that glory.

Skyler

Very work will set you free of the central planners

BESW

How do you know that the Soviet Union will triumph? the suffering of her people tells me she will triumph.

Skyler

02:02

in the USSR

BESW

That's an epistemological argument which relies on valuing certain ways of knowing.

Shalvenay

unfortunately from the standpoint of that narrative, the lack of factual grounding of that narrative caused it to basically fall down as facts started to peter in and undermine it

BESW

We all live in stories and make choices according to our beliefs about what kind of story it is and what our role in it is.

Skyler

yea, faith in religion was basically like a set of presuppositions to align someone towards creating that narrative, and then the national identity was an archetypal extraction of what they collectively expressed

BESW

Narrative and Freedom isn't easy to read--it's a bit self-important--but it's a good analysis of the concept through the lens of Russian literature.

Shalvenay

02:06

hey there @Ben

BESW

I found it a good companion piece to bring together the Erast Fandorin novels and Tower of Secrets.

Ben

o/

nitsua60

@BESW Ah, gotcha. So coconuts racist in the same sense that a black professional in Georgia could be forgiven for thinking "really, nightly news? You staged your intro set-piece in a cotton field? Cotton?"

BESW

@nitsua60 Yeah.

@nitsua60 See also the Kakamora.

trogdor

@nitsua60 well, add in a black reporter in that field

Shalvenay

02:09

@nitsua60 "what, you couldn't find a spare city block in Atlanta, GA?"

trogdor

You will more quickly see the problem after that addition

nitsua60

@BESW "Oh, and now you've got anthropomorphic cotton balls singing field-songs? I've got an MBA, jackass!"

trogdor

Hooo boy

nitsua60

To turn a page, I'm about to reincarnate Starmas =)

trogdor

Yeah that about does it there

BESW

02:11

Staaaarmaaaassss!

trogdor

Starmass?

BESW

@nitsua60 Yeeeah. Or more accurately, if you portrayed leprechauns as anthropomorphic potatoes.

nitsua60

Dec 25 '16 at 0:17, by nitsua60

I'm doing something something I hope doesn't annoy: picking a half-dozen of my favorite quotes from he year-in-chat and re-linking them, hoping to stir up some year-end smiles =)

Skyler

out of curiosity, has anybody here seen a taro in person and tried some?

nitsua60

@Skyler yes.

Skyler

02:12

whats it like?

BESW

Kinda like a sweet potato.

nitsua60

What I had was best described as "mashed starchy root"?

BESW

But it depends on the kind of taro and how it's prepared.

Shalvenay

@Skyler I have tried some cooked. It was OK, but not as nice as a sweet potato

BESW

Some people say it's kinda like a sweet vanilla potato.

nitsua60

02:13

I don't recall a flavor hitting me so much as as the texture and... weight? of it.

trogdor

@Skyler yep, also ditto on the sweet potatoe thing

Skyler

That was my impression from looking at the plant. It reminded me of actual yams

BESW

And it soaks up flavors so you can prepare it to taste like all sorts of things.

trogdor

Although the ones I tried were just sirya sweet potato ish

Skyler

rather than sweet potatoes

Shalvenay

02:14

@BESW yeah, mine was in an Asian dish with pork and some sort of brown sauce, but this was quite a few years ago

trogdor

Just the closest food I could personally use to describe it

BESW

A couple years ago I was hired to make a conference logo showing taro. I'd always taken it for granted before.

And of course you can eat the whole plant, not just the corm.

Skyler

oof this is making me hungry

trogdor

I have not eaten the whole thing

I need to go to lunch break now XD

BESW

Taro stems are kinda like okra.

Skyler

02:16

btw guys, anybody ever try to make a custard like thing with bananas

I want to make something like a banana creme pie but instead the bananas are the creme and I top it with sliced apples

BESW

The leaves are kinda... spinach-y?

Sounds reasonable.

nitsua60

Okay, here comes the brief deluge:

May 31 at 18:09, by Yuuki

The King Solomon Ruling: If you disagree with the DM, you and the DM take opposite ends of your character sheet and pull.

Jan 15 at 16:31, by RollingFeles

I stil think that rpg.se and this chat in particular are the most heartwarming place in whole SE.

Sep 6 at 14:39, by Yuuki

> I refer to thirty minute increments as "samurai" because Seven Samurai is more or less 3.5 hours long.

Jan 21 at 1:34, by fectin

Reading through something on meta, I came to a comment which made me think "wow, that's a really good point!" Went to upvote, and apparently I thought it was a really good point last time I read it too.

Jul 25 at 8:16, by BESW

There's no trouble with gender and relationships in gaming except what the individuals bring to the table.

Mar 28 at 19:03, by Karelzarath

Better than a Rug of Mothering. "Put your cloak on or you'll catch your death." "You need to eat more, you're wasting away." "Do you have clean underwear on?" "That shopkeeper was nice. You should marry him."

Dec 8 '15 at 14:40, by Magician

How is "do owlbears lay eggs?" a question worth 2500 views and 27 upvotes? I blame you all.

Jan 9 at 2:10, by Miniman

Mental note: include the phrase "boy howdy did we try" in all future posts to get a free upvote from @nitsua60

Star shower concludes. There it is: some of my favorites from a year in [chat].

2

(Last year we kept this to roughly one person's submissions per day, and I think it went pretty well.)

Skyler

hmm, i just learned that grapefruit seed extract can make water kind of taste like a cold tea

daze413

@Skyler what kinda bananas are you working with?

Skyler

VERY RIPE

im trying to finish off my fruits before I visit family for 3 weeks

daze413

02:29

no, no, must not star every quote! Must only star the first line

Skyler

I want to avoid doing much in the way of adding sugar and such

nitsua60

@daze413 I find it more useful to go back to the transcript and star the original, personally. That way we don't have the quoting of the thing being starred, but the thing itself.

daze413

@nitsua60 but I already starred those from when they were actually sent XD

nitsua60

@daze413 ah, so it's like a meta-star on that comment about upvotes on meta?

daze413

Nah, I just wanted to bookmark your round up of favourite quotes.

there, I think I starred the right one this time

nitsua60

02:36

I'll tell ya, though: it's been in interesting half-year moderating this motley crew =)

Shalvenay

hey there @Nyoze

BESW

New detective!

Nyoze

\o

Shalvenay

@Nyoze how're things going?

@BESW sends BESW to go investigate the mystery of the burning school bus

daze413

@Shalvenay it was on fire, mystery solved. Takes hat off

Nyoze

02:47

Things are going good. working on my PVP Pathfinder character at the moment.

And working, always working lol

I want a familiar for +4 to Initiative.

Question is... do I sacrifice 2 str and 2 feats, or 3 feats?

Shalvenay

@Nyoze ah, is now not a good time for our dungeon run?

Nyoze

We'll get there one day, I promise!

:\

Okay, so. I figured out the feats I'll be dropping. If I dump 2 str and 2 feates for Eldritch Heritage, I'll keep Weapon Spec, which gives me +1 on damage rolls.

2 Str gives me +1 on attack rolls and damage rolls, so... 3 feats it is!

Shalvenay

hey again @Asteria

Asteria

hay hay @Shalvenay

Shalvenay

@daze413 but how'd it catch on fire while just toodling down the road?

@Asteria how're things going?

Asteria

02:57

@Shalvenay Good! setting up a cheat sheet for this weekends game. whats up with chu

Shalvenay

@Asteria not a whole lot, wish to pick up where we left off in Discord btw, or have you not made any more progress?

Asteria

@Shalvenay I've gotten through another chunk, but haven't had any new epiphanies. T'would just be repeating what I said before, but with more examples

Shalvenay

@Asteria ah. how far are you?

Asteria

@Shalvenay start of the spar with Sh. 39? I think

*#9

Shalvenay

@Asteria got it

#10 actually

Asteria

03:03

@Shalvenay welp. #10 then :P

daze413

03:19

does anyone here use phone apps for initiative rolling and tracking?

Asteria

@daze413 do you need apple or android?

daze413

@Shalvenay if they're like the jeepneys here, where the fuel filler is literally right next to the passenger seat, without any safety stuff except a strip of plastic in the fuel cap to make it airtight...

Shalvenay

@daze413 thank gosh no.

daze413

@Asteria nah, was just kinda gauging (poorly) how prevalent an initiative app's usage would be.

@Shalvenay I can fuel your sense of relief.

Asteria

@daze413 Ah. Well one of the groups I play in uses several apps, one being an initiative app.

Shalvenay

03:35

@Asteria -- my food's here. I'll check in with you when I get back, k?

Asteria

@Shalvenay sounds good

Shalvenay

03:52

hey there @Adam

@Asteria back

Adam

heello

Shalvenay

04:23

hey there @WrongOnTheInternet

Ben

@Miniman @daze413 hopefully tonight we return to our adventures! lol

Shalvenay

@Ben -- btw, Papayaman is having a sleepover @ his $work so those adventures are on hiatus for now

Ben

If not, I want to try and nut out a good portion of my Monsters for the Diablo Dungeon

@Shalvenay Unfortunately I'll have to write myself off for anything else at this point, sorry. It's hard for me to commit to anything during the day

Shalvenay

@Ben yeah, it's not a worry for now at least. we'll see what happens later on

Asteria

@Shalvenay wb

Shalvenay

04:28

@Asteria thx

Ben

It seems that EVERYTHING wants to happen all at once at this time of year. Christmas, looking at moving, more work to make sure that next year starts off clean... ugh

Shalvenay

@Asteria made any more progress?

@Ben that is true

Asteria

@Shalvenay mhm, nearing the end now I believe.

Shalvenay

@Asteria ah.

(the last few fights are where some of the serious bloodshed occurs)

Asteria

@Shalvenay i'll have to find it, but theres a specific example that I wanted to point out. Once I find it again I'll shoot it on Discord

Shalvenay

04:37

@Asteria okiedokie

hey there @Abby

Ben

In other news, I have been informed that Starfinder has flopped a bit?

daze413

05:03

@Ben I will be a bit late because rain and traffic but I should be good for tonight :D

Ben

Awesomesauce

user2813274

05:37

@daze413 not worried about keeping the keep intact atm.. Thanks for the suggestions

Ben

@daze413 Oh, btw. Another friend suggested that the "Butcher's hook" ability should be nerfed a bit - yanking PCs over 30ft in a single turn is a bit much, so instead he suggested making it so that the distance they are moved by this ability, is equal to the amount they fail a DC15 str check. So, if they get a 14, they are only moved 1 ft

daze413