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8:02 PM
@BESW i'm confused
 
What by? There are so many things to be confused about!
 
lol
 
what is creation of the weasel from?
 
Bah, you're right, I totally botched that copy-paste.
1 message moved to Trash
@NautArch "Creation of the Weasel" would be a good name for a band.
 
makes so much more sense now :)
 
8:09 PM
hahahaa
That would be a humorous name, though
 
andi'm not sure i'd say guys like asimov, heinlein and clarke are 'special interest fiction for white men'
but back to the weasel: very cool how they showed how it was actually drawn
 
@NautArch It's part of an ongoing discussion between Twitter authors about the fallacy of canon. Good thread here (don't just read the first tweet, it doesn't summarize the thread's theme).
 
ah, this is making much more sense now
there is a constant pressure of learning from the past or focus on the present
the balance is hard
 
No genre can be truly defined by a single person
I mean, yes, in the modern context certain people like Tolkien did "found" the genre
 
i'm still very sad to see that classical history and literature is largely being removed from education - but i also understand and am sad that there is little representation of eastern history, thought, and philosophy
 
8:17 PM
but providing an initial popular impetus does not equal being the end all to everything
 
Yeah, treating the same handful of very similar authors as "the history of the genre" isn't a great way to approach learning it.
 
I mean, look at action/adventure
Clive Cussler totally rules that genre in the modern sense, and has for decades
 
@BESW ti's the wrong way of approaching it. But you still need to include them.
 
He's been dubbed as the "king"
but he is far from the only driving force in that genre
 
@Alphaeus and while i'd warrant that his books are popular, i'd also say his writing is largely not very good.
 
8:19 PM
@NautArch Cussler or Tolkien?
 
@NautArch But not the way the thread is describing as a common approach: as mandatory entry-level content without which one isn't "real'y" a fan of the genre or can't understand it.
 
@Alphaeus cussler
 
They're valuable for people who need context because of their studies. Nothing is mandatory or necessary for the average reader.
 
@BESW right - which i wholeheartedly agree with.
 
"Learn from history" is a complete goalpost move.
 
8:20 PM
@BESW true, the average reader should just find books they enjoy and read them.
 
@NautArch I'd say Cussler's writing is average. His talent is using average writing to creating engaging stories -- and more particularly, his greatest talent is in character creation. Dirk Pitt, for example, is a character that masterfully created.
Also, agreed
 
@BESW no, moving the discussion from fiction to history/language was a goalpost move :D
and had zero relationship for this fiction discussion. Just a similar idea I've had.
 
I mean, if you want to talk about "required reading" so to speak, then in the case of fiction everyone should read Sir Walter Scott.
But, of course, almost no one does these days
Which is perfectly fine
 
The various threads have contained a lot of great recommendations for lesser-read authors, especially authors who made folks feel welcome and represented in ways that the famous white men didn't/don't.
That's why I had this one in my clipboard; for all the authors mentioned downstream.
 
Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed Kenneth Opel as a pre-teen/teen
for the SF/F genre
 
8:29 PM
And, to be honest, as a white caucasian male (albeit jewish), I generally haven't noticed the white-centric focus of the older authors (which I think may be a better term than famous white men). Although misogyny i do remember in those and most books.
 
I mean, my experience WAS primarily with Lewis, Tolkein, Lovecraft, etc.
And yes, I can agree I don't feel their focus was strictly white-centric.
To be quite fair, they wrote like any good authors -- for their audience.
At that point in history the largest consumers of books were white middle class people
So, logically their cast catered to that mentality.
 
@Alphaeus and the tweet story does cover not judging based on the past market
 
Ah, I see.
 
@NautArch Thing is, a LOT of older authors aren't white guys either.
 
but it's easy to ignore that and just say "BAD WHITE MEN!"
 
8:31 PM
@BESW Very, very true
 
@BESW true but these guys were the popular force, very much genre defining, and had influenced other parts of society (like asimov's tech development)
 
Well, I don't want to spin off the topic into this, but I feel like these days "Bad White Men" is a rather often used accusation against many/most older things
So it is only logical it would spread into books of this sort as well
 
@Alphaeus which were generally committed by bad white men :D
 
True, although "bad" I a generic term, see last night's discussion of alignment :P
 
8:35 PM
@Yuuki hahaha
 
Depends on your mindset, IMO
@Yuuki
 
> Though the answer is obviously, "use her ring as a spell component".
 
Someone super eternally minded might try to bring people back
A druid might frown upon raising the dead as an interruption of the natural cycle
etc
 
Although that'd be more lawful neutral, I guess.
 
@Yuuki maybe it's "'til we die of old age do us part"
 
8:38 PM
lol
 
@Alphaeus Again, the specific theme of the linked discussion isn't that the "default" or "mandatory" or "influential" speculative fiction is bad; it's that it's not welcoming to many readers because they can't see their concerns or their reality reflected in it, and that we need to be okay with speculative fiction being wide and deep and ever-changing rather than getting caught up on a narrow slice of it.
 
I guess you just need to work out the contract details more clearly in a fantasy setting :) @Yuuki
@BESW Right. I was merely addressing another extreme I've heard before, which is to react so dramatically to call the old bad and the new the only good.

That said, I do totally agree. The Audience changes, and as works of fiction age they do not always remain relevant. In fact, the ability of a fictional work to remain relevant is one of the major measures of its quality.
 
@BESW although you could say that about almost any work of fiction written before your time. While some fiction is written so well as to remain relevant, much of it is written to be reflective and resonate for those reading it when it was written.
 
@NautArch This is why I personally like "timeless" works that don't attempt to relate to anyone, but create their own tone
 
@Alphaeus although it is easier to write what you know, and that's less timeless. It IS the great authors that can strike a timeless cord. I mean, people love shakespeare and think he's timeless. I've never enjoyed the writing or the stories.
I also don't really enjoy Victorian writing
 
8:42 PM
@NautArch Totally. Just because the discussion is happening within speculative fiction right now doesn't mean it's irrelephant elsewhere. I love Margery Allingham's Campion mysteries for her craft and characters, but I also really appreciate Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series for its more accurate and frankly interesting portrayal of London's diversity.
 
@NautArch Shakespeare is "pseudotimeless" because he harkened back to the Greco-Roman styles in his works, as well as writing very much for the Elizabethan court.
An example of more timeless works, IMO, if you want to pull from the time, are those of Daniel Defoe
Also Milton
(Milton being more timeless than Defoe)
 
And, of course, we consider Greco-Roman styles to be "timeless" but what we really mean is "ubiquitous." They're so broadly embedded in our particular cultural forms that they've become almost invisible and seem natural.
 
Precisely, which is why I used the term "Psuedotimeless"
Works like those of Milton are truly timeless because they create their own style from nothingness, or at least something that itself is timeless (the beginning of mankind)
 
In Japanese or Māori or Iñupiat cultures, the stories they consider timeless are... rather different.
 
@Alphaeus Any relation to Willem Dafoe? Or his split personality, Willem Dafriend?
 
8:48 PM
@Yuuki ahahahah, no...far from it :P
@BESW Oh, quite. Your point is also a good contrast of Western, Eastern, and Aboriginal (Native peoples) fiction
 
And then there's the relephant concern of differentiating the artist from their art.
 
> Can't spell "necromancer" without "romance",
 
@Alphaeus I'm a graphic designer local to a peri-colonial West-Pasifika culture, developing a reputation for designs that account for Pasifika identity and intersectionality. Understanding narratives across epistemological landscapes is my life and my job.
 
Doesn't "timeless" mean that a story's themes are relevant regardless of the cultural setting, both of the story as well as the audience?
 
Often, yes. Of course, it's kinda like "classic" in that it doesn't actually mean anything objective and is more of a statement about the audience than the work.
No story is utterly and objectively universal.
 
8:55 PM
@MikeQ Yes, quite true. I tend to regard works in to veins, however, to clarify. "Psuedotimeless" I used to describe works that are relevant at all times due to their overall nature, but are rooted in certain styles/themes that do date them. "Timeless" I use to refer to works that are also relevant at all times, but cannot really be rooted down to any one date/point in time by the readers (in an OOC sense, not IC)
 
To swing around to the chat room's ostensible topic, this is something I find interesting about tabletop RPGs: systems are not and can't be universal, and trying to be one-game-for-everyone usually ends in tears... but the strength of RPGs is that we can tell stories uniquely suited to ourselves without concern for any wider audience at all.
 
"trying to be one-game-for-everyone usually ends in tears" (My current campaign challenges that limitation :P)
 
Relephant reading: Shakespeare in the bush.
 
@Alphaeus I think that some of Shakespeare's attributed plays are timeless, some are pseudotimeless, and some are time...dependent? Timeful?
 
I do agree @MikeQ
For example, I find MacBeth to be timeless because, despite being dated, the issues it treats and the way it handles them delves into human nature and psychology.
I find Hamlet to be pseudotimeless to because while it does handle timeless topics, it is encased in a "sheen" of dated styles and themes
 
9:00 PM
Right, like resolving conflicts via duels to the death.
 
Right.
MacBeth, notably, involves revenge, murder, and warfare, not duels
 
And something like... Merchant of Venice is a bit more setting-dependent, because it assumes that the audience would understand (if not agree with) the social prejudices. Whereas a more modern and culturally sensitive reader would not relate as much.
 
By the way @BESW, per our earlier discussion, have I ever told the story of why I try to ignore alignment?
 
I'm not sure.
 
9:04 PM
Well, this can be another one of Mike Q's odd storytimes.
 
(All of Brows Held High's videos are great, and his Shakespeare Months cover an excellent spread of themes and forms.)
 
This was back during one of my first games as a player. I was new to the group, new to pathfinder, and was told to play as a cleric (despite not understanding how prepared spellcasting works). But I understood the general premise of "My character is ethical".
At a certain point, the party had "liberated" a bunch of young gnolls from their cave encampment. And there was some sort of rockslide that was blocking our path to the next area.
 
So what did our party of heroes do?
Why of course, they put the gnoll children into a "re-education" program, and had them "help" dig through the rocks for us.
 
Our cleric killed Bullywugs with other Bullywugs decapitated heads.
 
9:09 PM
I then pointed out, hey wait a minute, we just kidnapped a bunch of children, brainwashed them to reject their culture, and enslaved them as unpaid miners. My character is supposed to be ethical. Why does nobody object to this?
The answer?
The bestiary says gnolls are evil. So it's okay.
 
@MikeQ I thought you were going to say "they killed all the gnolls and used their bodies to make a knoll to climb over the blockage"
 
Your god probably doesn’t care
Because their god is evil and your’s is not, and gods are racist like that
 
how long did it take to "re-educate" them?
 
Gods are indeed racist
 
I'm not sure killing something because it's the servant of an objectively evil god can be considered "racism"
 
9:12 PM
Generally
Well, you know
 
@Adam I think it was a continuous thing. As you can imagine, I did not stay in that campaign very long. There were several other incidents that made me realize that I did not belong in that group.
 
Our party made friends with the Kobolds of the Sunless Citidal
Just because they’re usually evil doesn’t mean they’re all evil
 
@ATaco So did mine! ...Well, sort of.
@MikeQ Ick. Well, I'm glad you got out of it
 
Well, we did kind of kidnap meepo
 
This was the same campaign where XP was granted on an individual basis, depending on how much the GM thought the player contributed. Which means that the more XP you had, the higher your level, and the more you could contribute.
 
 
Meepo did not want to go adventuring, but the queen didn’t care about Meepo, and we wanted to bring Meepo
 
Additionally, the GM's wife was one of the players, and was virtually the protagonist of the group. So even when I (and another new player) made an effort to participate, we were ignored in favor of the wife's plot-derailing antics that took the GM's attention.
 
On a different note; what sort of HP should our enemies have at level 3? Because they’ve got around 10 on average and we’re one hitting most foes
 
Oh, yeah, that's way too little IMO
 
@ATaco What system?
 
One caveat @ATaco --- what party members and game system?
 
5e, a war cleric a barb and a rogue
I’m doing atleast 5 damage to monsters whilst raging, because 2d6+4 maul
 
Alright, so, 5e isn't my thing, but I will say 10 HP is a bit low
10 HP is only slightly above that of lvl 1 chars
Enemies become dangerous in one of two ways:
 
@ATaco Two part answer. First, pay attention to enemy CR, which should indicate how suited they are to the party's average character level.
 
1) They are really, REALY hard to kill!
2) There are tons and tons of them everywhere trying to kill you!
 
9:17 PM
I think our DM is solving the the problem by throwing more enemies in
 
Depends on the creature, but a typical CR 3 creature looks to have at least 50 hp, given a cursory glance at this
 
"Really hard to kill" is, in my experience, the most boring possible way to make an encounter difficult. It just puts a lens on the problems with attrition-based conflict.
 
@ATaco The problem with option 2 (what your DM has chosen) is that it turns into a bash-fest typically until you get into high levels.
@BESW I'm not meaning war-of-attrition type of hard to kill
 
@ATaco Second, when coming to encounter design, I recommend thinking not of the individual enemies, but rather the combined and average stats of the enemies. For example, rather than worrying about each enemy's HP, you may instead want to consider how much damage the players will need to output to get through the encounter.
 
I'm meaning intelligent, tactical, powerful beings
Beings that act/play like really good player chars
 
9:19 PM
I’ll talk with the DM about it a bit more
 
In 4e I often cut monster HP in half and doubled the damage they dealt, avoided giving them regenerative powers, and focused on interesting and cool abilities that made the conflict more tactically dynamic.
 
It makes me feel weak despite being able to deal twice their health without a crit
 
@ATaco ^^ Exactly what BESW just said. If you want encounters to be difficult, but not be tediously long, then the most reliable solution is to increase the enemies' offensive potential, rather than defensive potential.
 
But then, in 4e you had minions if you wanted to hit the party with a massive battle.
 
@BESW Right. In my campaign I'm homebrewing most encounters (using pre-defined dynamics of 3.5e, but still) and the creatures I tend to use come saddled with enough durability to make it through at least 3 rounds of heavy combat, but their primary focus is on things that would push the party out of its safety zone
 
9:21 PM
(Minions have 1 hp, standard attacks and defenses for the party's level, and deal a flat average for damage without rolling.)
 
i just want to be helpful as a Barbarian, yet the War Cleric with half my health pool keeps trying to tank
 
This is for an ECL 15 party, but their last encounter was vs two "generic" soldiers, a sorcerer/rogue gish, and a crossbowman with a heavily enchanted weapon and gear.
 
Oh, I misunderstood @ATaco. I thought you were the GM designing the encounters in this scenario.
 
Nah, I wanted more insight on the situation
 
None of these had super high HP or regeneration, but they could hit the weak-points of the party
 
9:22 PM
4e's minion/standard/elite/boss tier was brilliant, btw.
 
I do quite like the 4e’s minions
 
Yeah, I will say creating good 3.5e encounters is more an act of experience and instinct than science
 
Bosses were often a bit much, and took a lot of tweaking to make 'em survive PC lockdown debuffs without just ignoring PC builds.
 
Is there any better way to convince enemies to go for me besides waiting til level 14?
 
...which is why I made dragons as four Standard monsters instead of one Boss: a group of Head, Body, Wings, and Tail that moved together on the Body's turn. Defeating a body part meant the dragon got one less turn each round and lost that part's attacks and other utilities.
@ATaco Hmm. 5e doesn't have stickiness like 4e's defenders got?
 
9:24 PM
o_O
@BESW don’t think so, doesn’t say anything about it in the handbooks
 
@BESW Interesting. I've done a colossal construct-hivemind being that worked that way once, but never applied it to an actual being.
then again, 3.5e doesn't lend itself to that
 
Bah. [rummages] We've got some questions about that somewhere....
@Alphaeus In 3.5 I did something similar with a Crawling Apocalypse; it stayed under the sand and sent up tentacles to attack the party.
 
@ATaco Run right into the crowd, make loud noises to provoke them, get their attention by doing lots of damage
 
@ATaco There's a variant option for marking enemies in the DMG, but it's up to the DM whether or not you get to use it. Aside from that, there are some spells, but none that are available to a barbarian. Your best bet might be to just fling yourself into a position where the enemy can't avoid you. Usually around a choke point, or on top of the leader of the enemy group if you're in the open.
 
The tentacles would try to pin a PC to the ground so the body would rise up to swallow 'em.
@MikeQ Yeah, in 3.5 (barring bending an entire build around cheesing it) roleplay was the best bet for controlling who attacked who.
I suspect it's similar in 5e.
 
9:29 PM
@BESW Pretty much. I know the Compelled Duel spell fills a bit of that niche, but for the most part, it's up to you to make yourself enough of a nuisance to warrant getting attacked.
 
(For those not in the know, a Crawling Apocalypse is a mummified kraken that swims through desert sand like water.)
 
@MikeQ yes, it is usually easiest to try to solve tactical issues with roleplay before you get into rollplay
This applies to ALL tactical issues, IMO
 
@Adam In terms of GM psychology I'd see what could be done with attaching skill checks to the roleplay so they feel like you're not getting something for nothing.
 
@Adam that’s usually the plan. I just need to convince the cleric to stop doing the same
 
But they're a War cleric. They want to be up there too
 
9:33 PM
She does, but she’s not got the AC or the HP to tank
Statwise they’re more kitted our to range and support, but I can’t force their hand
 
just gonna make that gender neutral...pay no mind to the edits
 
Last session they almost killed themselves because they rolled high initiative and charged the boss monster and had themselves surrounded
 
Hahaha, are these newer players?
 
We’re all pretty new
 
Sounds like maybe they should re-build the character to match their play goals.
 
9:36 PM
@ATaco Perhaps you could offer a friendly reminder that they're not the only melee character, and don't need to rush in by themselves.
 
I think she’s taken that as a challenge
 
@BESW possibly, yes. I will say I often enjoy using classes for purposes they were not ostensibly designed to do, but that's also coming from someone experienced enough to toy with builds like that.
 
its not ruining my fun, just making It hard to keep her alive
 
There's a difference between "the designers did not intend this use" and "the mechanics do not support this use."
 
Her damage output with melee is greater than mine undeniably, but against multiple smaller enemies it doesn’t matter
 
9:38 PM
@BESW Well, true. Although even then I've found you can usually make mechanics do surprising things, or use feats/skills/items to transform mechanics to your liking
 
I had to use my daily Animate Shrub to save her.
 
@ATaco One option is to play your barbarian like a bodyguard. Get close to the cleric, and prioritize enemies that threaten her the most. Step in the way if you have to.
 
@ATaco Well, this is not optimal but if a player is not learning mechanics well, I've usually found that sometimes it is good to let them "almost" die (aka, drop to unconscious but stabilize)
 
I think the DM might have pulled a punch in that fight though
 
That said, @MikeQ 's suggestion is rather good one, although it forces you out of your comfort zone for your char, potentially
 
9:39 PM
@Alphaeus In that case, the mechanics do support the use despite not being designed for that purpose.
 
Despite these gameplay issues, it’s a fun group
Our characters are all very different, which creates some interesting dialogue
 
@BESW Well, to clarify what I mean -- at least in 3.5e (and, 99% of the time, Pathfinder) I don't think there are any mechanics you can't get/bend to your will with enough work, supposing usage of all first-party resources
 
@Alphaeus That's correct. The weakness with that suggestion is that @ATaco might be forced into a babysitter role, forced to chase the cleric around, and save her from her own mistakes. Which is kind of ironic, considering how clerics are traditionally the heal and support roles.
 
She has one heal spell slotted :(
She keeps using it on herself
But that’s something that I can only talk with her about
And with my health pool, I don’t really need healing
 
Also, to make another point, I have been told I am both a very good DM, and a rather unforgiving one, so take my advice in that light if you prefer to be more forgiving. I work off of a "3 Strikes" mentality. I'm willing to bend the rules in any given area 3 times to keep the players alive. After the third time, if they make the same/similar mistake, the dice fall where they may.
 
9:43 PM
Our party consists of a sort of noble Dragonborn Cleric, A tribalistic Dwarf Barbarian, and a Sea Faring Genasi. Our characters are all very different culturally, and it makes for some great situations
 
So I would say this is a situation where being forgiving has more rewards
That said, like I suggested before, if SOMEONE can get another way of healing/stabilizing someone, let the cleric get themselves knocked silly once or twice enough to learn that keeping that up isn't a wise choice
 
Anyway, another session in a couple of days, I’ll bring up my concerns and enjoy myself either way
 
lol, well, good luck
 
Greetings Mentalgen
 
Tinggrees to you too
 
9:48 PM
The rogue Genasi is still a great player who gets rather creative
 
@Asteria What's the status on Shadow Diva Sparkle a la mode?
 
Oh, I second Mike's quesiont @Asteria
 
lol
 
@MikeQ @Alphaeus She was denied
thrown in the bin
 
>:{
 
9:58 PM
and spat on
 
aggressive frowning intensifies
 
Hell-O!
 
@eimyr hey hey
 
oh, Asteria
I'm humbled by the presence.
 
@Alphaeus turn that frown into a stabbu knife of burnination
 
9:59 PM
Hm. Okay @Asteria, here's plan B: Make a conceptual duplicate to your partner's character. Maybe integrate bits and pieces of other player characters, even if they don't really make sense together.
 
@eimyr As thy should be! Turns nose up
 
By playing as the average of the other party members, which the GM has accepted, surely your character will also be "interesting enough".
 
so what's going on in here?
are you making a shadow-based character?
 
@eimyr @Asteria's new GM is unnecessarily controlling and picky, and so we're trying to give good advice on how to manage character concepts
 
@MikeQ I'm a grumpy old man that duel wields guns, my wife was murdered and I was blamed for it, I have a drinking problem to forget my woes but I'll murder anyone that abuses drugs because I'm a holy and righteous monk thats only 17
@MikeQ .....they don't mix good :c
 
10:02 PM
@MikeQ I've heard this story before...
 
@eimyr The complaint was that the original character was too "boring" and not "badass" enough, so I suggested a new character that is as absurdly edgy as possible.
 
@Asteria are you a GM too?
 
I'm a 4' ball of pure rage with a hammer that's the size of me who tries to make friends with everything and collects Druid artifacts.
 
@Asteria Perfection. Do it. A grumpy old monk at the wise age of 17 years.
 
@eimyr I've only ever GM'd one game, so I would say no. Nope. Ie. Nain. ect ect
 
10:03 PM
@Asteria Fair enough. Access to other games? (I assume you're USican?)
 
@ATaco if you call my short though, I'll bite your ankles
@eimyr I'm unfortunately in Australican't (and really, really, reaaally rural)
 
I can summon animated shrubs which I can grow fruit on.
@Asteria Eyyyy! Same!
 
@ATaco Eyyy!
 
@Asteria like Alice Springs or worse?
 
@eimyr Like we have a movie theater with a single screen that only shows movies on the school holidays and if you want take-away toooo bad
 
10:07 PM
@ATaco @ATaco would you happen to be referring to a Blue Kobold that uses Greater Mighty Wallop and Druid-esque buffing spells?
 
Nope, I'm referring to Crag Stonecrusher, my Dwarf Barbarian.
 
@Asteria oh... so how on Earth did you manage to get a group? is it an online thing?
 
Just curious because I have a player in my campaign that uses a Kobold buffing build to become a 1v1 melee dominator
 
@eimyr I have to drive 4 hours to get to Melbourne to play with people there
 
@Asteria holy shit that's dedication
 
10:09 PM
@eimyr I am nothing if not crazy bored and deprived of entertainment
 
lmao
Was that 4 hours round trip?
 
I'm about 2 hours away from Melbourne, but probably in the other direction.
 
@Asteria could you possibly make a session on Thursday, at around 6 am your time? :P
 
@Alphaeus it wouldn't be that long if it wasn't for Melbourne traffic, since I'm on the wrong side of Melbourne to what I wanna be
 
I wouldn't even try asking this, but your conviction makes me think this might not be as ridiculous to you as it is to me
 
10:13 PM
@eimyr I'm 99% sure the world doesn't exist until the sun rises
 
Nov 13 at 11:22, by eimyr
Hi folks, I'm looking for one person for an online game of Mage: the Ascension. Wednesday evenings UK time, games held fortnightly. Since Storyteller system sucks we will use a Fate conversion, which preserves the original way magic works. Anyone interested?
I have two spaces as of now
 
@eimyr Post an updated message and I'll re-pin it.
 
I would join if it wasn't 6am.
 
anyway, if your character wasn't cool enough...
 
I gotta work thursdays.
 
10:15 PM
@eimyr I am super interested, actually. I love trying new games.
Unfortunately I have work D:
 
Hi folks, I'm looking for two people for an online game of Mage: the Ascension. Wednesday evenings UK time, games held fortnightly. Since Storyteller system sucks we will use a Fate conversion, which preserves the original way magic works. Anyone interested?
2
 
I would be open to joining an online tabletop campaign with some of you folks. However I generally have a busyish schedule.
 
@eimyr Spiky shoulderpads.
Massive spiky shoulderpads.
 
@BESW thanks, I'm not sure if it's worth it, I'll be running it 1+2 and 1+3 from February or so
 
Mage: The Ascension of Fate.
 
10:16 PM
I'd get spiky shoulder pads, but I think that would nullify my unarmoured defense.
 
Spiky shoulderpads aren't defense; they're offense.
 
@Asteria shame, if I ever have a game running on the weekend, I'll remember to let you know
 
@eimyr please do!
 
The tempation to go spike dwarf barbarian was great.
 
10:20 PM
@BESW Something I've picked up in HEMA classes: armour allows you to be ridiculously more offensive than you would normally be. Also, defending is terrible for your bodily safety. If you don't want to be harmed, do not to parry.
 
Gah, I have so many games and campaigns I want to start/continue and not enough energy to prep them and not enough players to play them.
 
@BESW don't you operate in a similar timezone to @Asteria?
 
Likely so.
 
I'd love to roll a new druid if anyone's planning a new weekend campaign...
 
@BESW Mate: Conversion
 
10:32 PM
@ATaco Do you ever consider PbP Campaigns?
 
I don't know what that is.
 
Play-by-post.
 
I still don't know what that is.
 
Aka chat RPs, but slapped into a forum to avoid real-time issues
 
> A game where communication is handled asynchronously in text. Includes playing by post (snail mail) as well as email, posting boards, forums, and other asynchronous text mediums. (from our tag wiki)
 
10:35 PM
And also to allow for greatly expanded capabilities
 
Eh, doesn't sound like my kind of thing.
 
Examples can be found in the conversation tabs of The Back Room and the Fate Chat and Game Room.
 
Fair enough. I mean, sometimes it ends up "nearly" real time, but generally in the good cases it allows people to be able to RP without worrying about time differences
 
See also Storium.
 
I was asking because I'm running one rn that's looking for one more player
 
10:37 PM
@BESW aww I remember KSing Storium. Been ages since I've heard anyone mention it
 
I really like the idea and it works for a lot of people, but it sadly doesn't work for me. I've tried several times.
 
I tend to think it could work for me, but it never actually has.
 
Ditto!
 
@BESW Just curious, but why is that?
Because I can say I've had my share of being a player in failed campaigns
as well as in successful ones
 
@Alphaeus For me, at least, they invariably fall apart as people post less frequently, until eventually it's just dead.
(There are other problems I've had with them, but that's the one that's been in all of them.)
 
10:55 PM
@Alphaeus it comes across as such a great idea, and it really really is, but people need a lot of motivation to stay involved. You'll tend to find that players get bored / uninterested while waiting for someone else to post. By the time there turn has rolled around, whatever inspiration they had is gone. It goes from "Oh man I'm totally going to X and then Y and BAM!" to "Oh, I guess it's my turn. I hit them with a hammer"

At least, thats my experience
 
@Miniman Yup, that's the unifying symptom for me. I'm not sure exactly what the cause is because every time I think I've got it nailed and try again, it happens again despite having addressed what I thought was wrong.
 
@BESW I really wish we were able to keep a game in that running
 
Yeah, it seemed ideal in many ways.
 
I personally only slowed my posting because others did
one person can't keep the story going in that format
not alone I mean
 
@trogdor It is, thankfully
You just have to be careful
a good RP site helps
 
10:59 PM
@Alphaeus I'm not sure what you're responding to.
We're talking about our experiences with Storium.
 
Oh
I was meaning play by post
 
@trogdor See, I feel the same way - and when I've post-mortemed PbP games before, it's generally been universal.
 
hey there @Alphaeus @Asteria
 
Hey Hey @Shalvenay
 
how're things going?
 
11:08 PM
@Miniman Right... so I tried two Storium games with only two participants, the narrator and the player, with a different second person each time, to see if "everyone's waiting for someone else to post next" was really the cause. Same thing happened anyway.
 
@BESW Hmmm, interesting.
 
to me it seems like people just have their enthusiasm evaporate over time
but I don't know what causes it
@Miniman I am pretty sure both games I was in, I was the last person to post
 
I mean, in my experience with PbP the DM has to take some extra action to keep things going
 
and I kept waiting for someone to come after me but it just never happened that last time
 
And also the DM has to have a "fail-safe" if someone goes MIA
 
11:11 PM
but that is a lot of work for the DM just to keep people active
and it won't work if they just,... stop anyway
 
Well, true
That said, picking players is a big thing as well
Ability to remain active is my biggest concern when picking players for a PbP
 
Also, it shouldn't really be the DM's responsibility to maintain enthusiasm on everyone else's behalf. I've been in that role with a meatspace game, and it sucks.
 
yeah that is what I was trying to protest
it can easily become a lot of wasted effort
and perhaps you might even continue longer than you should due to sunk cost fallacy
if the players can't maintain some level of their own enthusiasm, eventually your effort will be wasted anyway
 
Yeeeah, I'm inclined to default to "if you can fix it, that doesn't mean it wasn't broken."
 
11:26 PM
I think it's on a case-by-case basis
Btw, as the official end of November/beginning of December...
 
11:53 PM
I have been excited for 2 months for hatmas
 
I would like another Doctor Who hat, because that was fun.
 
user15026
@Alphaeus O.o what is even going on here
 
@Ash I didn't have the courage to ask that XD
 
user15026
@trogdor I was feeling brave, although I may regret that :P
 

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