TRPG General Chat

kviiri

00:00

Me too, although the DnD model is a pretty good fit for a game whose intent is to have characters survive several not-particularly-remarkable and maybe one or two more significant combat encounters during an average day.

...while retaining tactical combat, that is.

(afk for a while, shower time)

BESW

M'rr. New Skype.

[pokes silly mobile-posing-as-desktop interface]

trogdor

00:29

I stop it from updating out of spite

till it gets too annoying to do anymore

Shalvenay

hey there @Oak

kviiri

00:56

bedtime

I'm going to try this life hack where I sleep with the curtains up so the sun will wake me up feeling fresh and energetic.

See ya

nitsua60

Good luck!

Oak

01:37

@Shalvenay Yo

Shalvenay

@Oak how're things going?

...D&D question: what is the origin of the distinction between "animals" and "vermin" as creature subtypes?

Lord_Gareth

There's no hard evidence, but if you held a gun to my head and made me guess, it has to do with the demonization of insects and arthropods

Which in D&D included literal demonization

Shalvenay

walks into the room as a druid, covered in fuzzy bees

Lord_Gareth

I didn't say it was correct or even acceptable

Just that it's the reason I find most plausible

Shalvenay

yeah...I can see where you're going, but at the same time, it's a mega-:/

in particular, it gives druids a somewhat awkward relationship to the largest part of the animal kingdom

Lord_Gareth

01:47

I mean, the original Prince of Demons is still the Demon Prince of Vermin

Shalvenay

...are bees considered animals or vermin in 3.x land?

Oak

@Shalvenay doing great! Working on nifty themes for my editor.

Shalvenay

@Oak ah. pondering if a druid can wildshape into a bee out of the box :p

Oak

@Shalvenay I think there are size limitations, aren't there? At least there were in 3/3.5

Lord_Gareth

Vermin

Shalvenay

01:51

@Oak yeah, I know there are several size limits in 3.x, but I'm suspecting that size aside, what kills that out-of-the-box are type limits...

Lord_Gareth

Insects and spiders that aren't magical beasts are vermin

Shalvenay

(as LG pointed out, bees are vermin, not animals. talk about a diss for something we couldn't have organized society without!)

BESW

In 3.5, because creature types are tied to Intelligence score limitations, "vermin" gets assigned to "animals" who we don't consider independently intelligent or self-aware.

Lord_Gareth

(Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons. Would you like to add a cup of needless racism to your taxidermic errors?)

BESW

Hence why rats have the animal type despite being idiomatically vermin, while bees are vermin despite being useful and pleasant.

Shalvenay

01:54

@BESW that just makes things even stranger :P I'd have made the distinction between "animals" and "swarmers" if you will based on size

BESW

This is also why my homebrew Vermin Lord god doesn't care about types when determining the creatures over which he has dominion.

Shalvenay

an animal is something that you can reasonably handle as an individual thing. rats probably fall on the animal side of that line

swarmers are things that are too small for the game to handle as individuals when they group together, hence the need to handle them as a group

BESW

@Shalvenay And then D&D comes out with a centipede the size of a small car and says "This is vermin."

Shalvenay

:P

a giant centipede would most definitely be an animal by my definition. swarmers would be small, generally-eusocial arthropods. trying to manage all the honeybees in a hive as individuals would be a great way to cause smoke to come out of anyone's ears

BESW

Speaking of vermin, I'm hoping to run Extermination tonight.

It's a Misspent Youth hack where the Authority is humans in a city who want to exterminate all the rats, and the Youthful Offenders are mutated teenage rats who are trying to make the city safer for all rat-kind.

nitsua60

02:10

@Oak this is excellent =)

Shalvenay

hey there @Mr.Cat

Mr.Cat

o! hi @Shalvenay

Oak

@nitsua60 Yes it looks awesome! I'm still waiting for permission from the texture author, plus I have a ton of bugs to fix in this version. I will make my own version of that texture if I don't get permission though, so one way or another there will be such a theme.

Shalvenay

welcome to the RPG.SE lair :) what brings you here?

Mr.Cat

I wish i had an answer for that

I'm playing around, a little bit desperate .. don't mind me. i'll come back again later

Trish

08:01

running The Dark Eye later. Hmm, how to a) exchange the elf for some country hobo (Hunter or farmer the player said - he feels overwhelmed by playing an elf correctly)

Trish

08:21

and b) get them back into the city of Greifenfurt before the horse of Orcs comes to lay siege to it

kviiri

08:54

The curtain thing actually worked!

Zachiel

13:31

@Oak ♥

The theme looks wonderful

ACuriousMind

@Trish A horse made of orcs is a really terrifying thing ;)

Zachiel

@BESW [gives Thor candies and toys]

Side question: is someone here good enough at deciding whose character in the party should get the next useful item? D&D 4e if it matters.

trogdor

14:20

ok, I mean, I would need more information than that, but I know some 4e stuff

and I was actually in charge of what items several characters got (as a PC and not as the GM but still)

so maybe?

Thomas Ward

hopefully your PC was somewhere in the neutral/good realm so they didn't just hoard all the good items :P

trogdor

lol

I was not deciding when people got items, technically

Zachiel

@trogdor More information: I'm playing an adventure and most of the items are integral to the adventure, so usually people who could use 'em got 'em. It turned out that the warrior with Master at Arms (the feat) got three weapons in a row while other people got close to nothing - nothing better than their crafted equip, at least.

trogdor

ah

I would at least suggest people get some weapons then

but obviously I assume the problem is a little more complicated than that

Zachiel

Anyway, that character is dead now, other 2 characters are dead and I got 4 new characters (new player!) and 2 survivors, and an item that, for once, I have to choose.

trogdor

14:24

ok, so is it a matter of asking who can use the item the best, or is it more of a "who deserves to get one now"?

Zachiel

The survivors are a ranger that already has the right weapon (frostcheese greatbow), the armor he wants (necrotic resistance) and everything, and a feylock with the accurate staff of ruin and the rod that turns curse dice brutal.

More like the second. I have identified some level-appropriate items that they might use

trogdor

ok fair enough

Zachiel

For the ranger it'd be a coif of mindiron instead of his current helm that gives initiative bonuses to allies. For the warlock it could either be a +2 Fort belt with some extra HP once per day or bracers that give him some extra damage if hidden (but I have no idea how hidden he can be, I'm guessing Eyebite before moving works)

Or I could throw in a ring that reduces necrotic damage by 50% and look as the party infights for possess of the item (they're on a quest against Orcus, Demon Lord of Undeath)...

I'd like the damage bonus item because it'd make encounters shorter, not longer, but... how would you choose?

kviiri

@Zachiel I wish my #1 party infighted more for the items, we've pretty much gotten stuck in having each item be clearly earmarked because otherwise the more active players will always have them.

trogdor

@Zachiel ok so technically, @BESW was more of the guy who decided that stuff

the only advice I have is to try to give people who got less items the times and rotate it around who has waited the longest

not sure I can help more than that

if it was a question of which item to get someone I might have been able to help more, though to be fair it has been a loooong time since I did that

Zachiel

14:32

The warlock player is new to the party, so he has not been given anything yet but since he has been with us, the ranger has not been given anything as well. If anything, the warlock crafts items and has higher level items by virtue of having joined later

@trogdor You could also do that but the "this must be a lvl 18 item" clause part and browsing handbooks has already been done.

trogdor

browsing the handbooks was most of what I did

building in flexibility of level was a little of it, but

@BESW was the one who decided to give out loot and when and which ones I had picked out to hand out to people

Zachiel

I think part of the problem is that my party is not used to writing item wishlists.

trogdor

ah

that would be a problem yeah

that is more or less what I was doing

and the reason I did it even for other people's characters was because I made about half of them

the people who made their own characters also made their own wishlists, but I was making a handful of wishlists even though I was only playing one character at a time

Thomas Ward

... should I be really concerned about my affinity for evil characters which I create? Because I'm noticing a trend there, heh, that I make mercenary-like characters a lot...

(latest is lawful evil... god I think I have an issue heh)

trogdor

@ThomasWard I don't think escaping into an evil character is by itself some kind of problem

kviiri

14:40

Yeah, as long as it supports the kind of play you're after. (where "you" includes the rest of the people in your game)

Thomas Ward

indeed.

kviiri

We were thinking of having a lawful evil party in DnD 5e, but haven't gotten there yet.

Thomas Ward

heh

well I came a little later into this campaign, and asked out of game if they'd have an issue with a mercenary-like character who's lawful evil (moral codes and what not, but has no qualms about killing or violence) in the party, and they said 'no' because their party regularly has had NPC mercs join their group for missions and quests.

'course it's quite different with a PC but still :)

not my fault i was in a damned conference on the other side of the country at the time they started the campaign :P

kviiri

"No qualms about killing or violence" sounds like the typical DnD character regardless of alignment.

trogdor

@Zachiel have you tried prompting them to make some for you?

because I definitely think the fact that our Players were making the item wishlists cut down somewhat on the GM work involved in running 4e

Thomas Ward

14:43

@kviiri well, true, but if we look at some characters they may wish to avoid violence if necessary, whereas my character being on the evil side prefers violence, threats, etc. so long as it doesn't violate his own moral code.

end-game scenarios in a campaign though you're right, you sometimes need that.

hmm, i'm out of coffee... back later.

kviiri

Well, you know the thing with DnD alignments. Everyone has nine, it just depends on who you ask :)

trogdor

anyway, I require sleep now XD

Zachiel

@trogdor The warlock player could do that. The ranger player is not that good at character building.

Goodnight and thanks!

trogdor

ah

@Zachiel it's just a suggestion, and I know it depends on a player being ok with it, but maybe one or more of them who is good at making characters can handle that for the others?

Zachiel

@trogdor (He still likes attack that do 3[W] rather than getting an attack that does 1[W] thrice).

trogdor

14:47

again, it worked for my group but, I know it won't necessarily automatically fly with yours

Zachiel

@trogdor I'll try

trogdor

mk, and it doesn't have to be some big deal if they don't want to, it just sounds like it might be useful if they are seriously down to do it

anyway sleep time now XD

kviiri

15:17

Zachiel

@kviiri [looking puzzled]

Thomas Ward

15:51

you aren't alone there heh

Zachiel

@ThomasWard [looking around now] Ah, it's you. Can you please shut down those eye lights? You scared me.

Thomas Ward

laughs evilly

Zachiel

[Casts the Guards and Wards D&D spell. Now all Wards in the room are Zachiel's doing. Zachiel casts Ward away.] XD

Thomas Ward

looks left, then right, then back at @Zachiel

You must've rolled a nat1 or something at some point, because it didn't work

yawns, and goes back to beating his head against computers for a while

Zachiel

16:11

(That's totally not what Guards and Wards does. XD)

kviiri

Our Druid summoned eight panthers in combat in our last DnD session.

It was all in good fun but the whole management overhead of seemingly cool combat options would frustrating as heck in a longer campaign...

Zachiel

@kviiri that's exactly why we try not to summon things when playing by chat.

The turn of a summoner druid could last a whole hour instead of the usual 10-15 minutes.

kviiri

Sad to lose options simply because they're poorly implemented though

Zachiel

@kviiri I also have seen trolls rolling a summoner.

And no, trolls are not an allowed race in that game. XD

kviiri

@Zachiel I've seen trolls rolling a summoner, bouncing a fighter and splitting a rogue

Druid seems to be a hard class to get right, since it's pretty clunky to play both in Dungeons and Dragons and Dungeon World

Thomas Ward

16:19

@Zachiel CBA to look it up, never used in a campaign i've been in, hence not knowing. Ignorance is an excuse in this case.

On another note, it looks like SE is misbehaving with me...

most of the campaigns i've been in are homebrewed and loosely follow DnD rulesets.

Zachiel

@ThomasWard I just wanted to cast... a shadow on you. Well, on your spooky eyes, I mean XD

But I guess the bad puns are enough for today.

Zachiel

18:26

@Oak I've been tinkering with mipui and there's a pair of things that I've experienced that might interest you. First of all, I see no way of drawing curtains that are more than 1sq long (this causes issues with fog of war). Second, fog of war behaves wierdly around curved/diagonal walls. I have no idea how to solve this but if you click on a square traversed by a wall, you'll get vision on both sides.

Thomas Ward

@Zachiel Also the lack of coffee in my system doesn't help.

i've only had half a cup because power went away and i'm nursing a bad headache

Zachiel

@ThomasWard I'm not a coffee consumer so I can't say that I feel you, but... I feel your pain.

Thomas Ward

I can definitely make you feel the pain, here plug in some headphones, put the volume at max, and... :P

Zachiel

This is where I gently refuse and go dining instead.

Thomas Ward

:P

Trish

20:02

If no answer was given that is eglible for a bounty... I regain the points in 24 hours?

user15026

@Trish No, once you set a bounty, the rep is gone

Trish

even if nobody even attempted to answer the question?

user15026

Correct.

user15026

This post explains all the details of the bounty system: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/16065/…

Trish

well, too bad, because I didn't got an answer.... sadly...

In other news: managed to run through the most booooring prelude with the least chance for players to act I know: the Battle of the Silkwiesen in The year of the Gryffon is a MESS: players can actually not change anything (no matter what they do, the results are exactly written out already). They can't change the game, but they can not die either... well, and they gain 150 to 375 XP as a kickstart.

System: The dark eye

A_S00

20:16

Seeking feedback/votes/opinions on a late-posted meta answer, as it seemed to me that the accepted one classified a bunch of questions as bad that the site has otherwise been treating as good:

https://rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/7550/30299

Thanks!

Trish

@A_S00 you might better make a new post and link back to the old october post (yes, 1 week on stack is old). Link back to the discussion.

A_S00

@Trish I feel like that would (rightly) be closed as a duplicate of the existing question?

Is that not how it works on meta?

Trish

on Meta,duplicates are not closed.

a policy proposal is something different from a discussion.

A_S00

@Trish Seems like they are?

Trish

if you propose a change, it is a matter on itself. that is tagged feature-request

A_S00

20:34

I...don't think that's what the feature-request tag is actually for. It seems to always be used for requesting new technical site features, or changes to how the site works (like "require comments for downvotes"), not changes to our standards for what is a good/bad question. Policy proposals seem to always be tagged discussion, sometimes with the proposal in the question, other times as "How should we handle X?" and then a proposal for it in a self-answer.

Example: rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6148/…

nitsua60

@A_S00 I think there's some daylight between the not-a-real-problem questions that the meta post asks about and the ones you're discussing in your answer.

The post's asking about questions asked in the "I'm sure someone needs the answer to this" vein.

But you're talking about ones asked out of curiosity/wonder that the querent actually has.

The probelm (IME) with the posts the meta post is talking about is that when a request for clarification comes back to the author it can't be clarified because the impetus for the question doesn't come from the author, but rather from the author's belief that someone has or will have this question.

If you want to know who thought up XP it may not solve a problem at your table but it is, at least, your curiosity; when clarification's needed you'll be able to provide it.

(Just realized those ^^ should actually be comments on your meta answer--going to go post that thinking there now. Sorry for the double-ping you'll get!)

A_S00

I agree that those are the questions that doppel and mxy are thinking of when they write their answers, but it isn't clear to me that those are the questions being asked about in the question I guess? I see where you're getting it in the "but that you think would benefit the site and users looking for answers in future" line. But all the questions in my example do seem to me like they fail to meet the standard from the Help Center.

Like this is mostly a non-problem, because the site's actual closing and voting behavior lines up with what I think should happen

nitsua60

20:50

@A_S00 Hmm.. yeah, I can see that. And I'll even cop to one (that you can include in your post, if you like): rpg.stackexchange.com/q/76958/23970. Not only did I not have that problem of figuring it out (as evidenced by the self-answer), I didn't even post it out of altruistic motives. I posted it because I was tired of people asking me how to figure the odds!

Gotta run--time to make the kids dinner. But I'll reflect on that some more.

SevenSidedDie

Historically, “practical problems you face” has always been a bit of a grey area here. Often we run into a question that's got problems, and they can be traced directly to the problem being hypothetical. But we've also got a lot of good questions that are “I want to know X” that work out just fine. The dividing line between good and unworkable Qs has never been obvious (and mostly has gotten sorted out by the squishy intuitions that lead to votes).

Trish

Hey, I asked a question about "Chargen in Sengoku" when I don't play Sengoku. i had the problem that it is badly written in that part though...

SevenSidedDie

@A_S00 I think your “elevated risk” insight is spot-on.

Matti Virkkunen

21:48

I've literally never played a non-electronic RPG and I have a dumb question... how do questions like these work in practice? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109254/…

I mean surely you can't pause an RPG session so that the DM can ask something on SE and wait for an answer. Are all questions like these something that came up at the very end of a session before everybody went home?

kviiri

@MattiVirkkunen I've been thinking about the same thing, from time to time...

Matti Virkkunen

Or maybe they're written hypothetically, and the DM just made something up by themselves in the actual game

Lord_Gareth

@nitsua60 there's also the related but separate case of wanting to do something in a system or game, but having no idea how or where to start. One of my higher-rated questions - How Can I Play An Artificer Predictively? - is like that

Shalvenay

@MattiVirkkunen some RPGs (play by post mostly) can get paused waiting on a ruling

@MattiVirkkunen sometimes a DM will make a stop-gap ruling and then ask for more guidance after the session ends

SevenSidedDie

22:03

@MattiVirkkunen I generally assume that these “paused moment” questions looking for help with what to do next come up in play-by-post or play-by-chat games, where they have time before responding. (These sorts of games typically takes days or weeks for what a face-to-face game covers in one session.) We've had questions like that in the past where that's been revealed to be the context.

Matti Virkkunen

Oh, that makes more sense

Thanks

BESW

23:36

@MattiVirkkunen Often in my groups we'll adjudicate something on the fly and then go research the actual rules later, to inform our decisions next time something like that comes up.

But yes, also, I've found that silly things usually happen later in the session, so it's sometimes possible to say "Okay, let's stop there while I figure out what happens next," because it was near the regular ending-time anyway.

BESW

23:51

Factors to consider, roughly in order of importance:
- Everyone should have a weapon/implement, armor, and neck slot item within five levels of their own level. These grant the basic attack/defense bonuses that monster balance expects. If anyone's missing one of those, or it's more than five levels lower than their own level, fix that before you hand out any other loot.
- Once you've got the three slots filled, start filling in the others: arms/feet/hands/head/ring/waist. If anyone's got one of those slots empty, fill it before you start replacing items in already-filled slots.

Transcript for