TRPG General Chat

Ben

00:16

Hullo all chaps and chappettes

A. McCurran

Hi

Ben

How goes the day

BESW

Mashup: Scrivener + #RPGaDay2017

Ben

@Miniman it was a little weird hearing you for the first time. @daze413 was fine, but there's something about hearing the Australian accent over the internet that's weird for me haha

BESW

(@doppelgreener Might want to put RPGaDay2017 on the pin.)

Miniman

00:29

@Ben Me too!

Ben

I blame the media haha

BESW

@Ben Yeah, same thing first time I did voice chat with Greener and Magician.

trogdor

@Ben personally, I have that with pretty much everyone I hear the first time

it's a little weird and then I eventually get used to it

as for the Australian accent,.... I meet some of them sometimes visiting the island, I know a few of them (and I mean that as ones I know outside of this site even) and I watched a lot of Steve Irwin on Animal Planet as a kid too

so that particular part is not so strange

Miniman

00:45

Tbh, I didn't think my accent was that pronounced XD

Ben

@Miniman Well, to me no. But I think it's as @trogdor says. the first time you hear someone, regardless, it's a little weird (though for some reason I didn't get that with @daze).

I mean, I've been chatting with a Mars Djinn sprite up to this point, so...

Miniman

True, true - at least I had an actual picture to work with :P

trogdor

lol

Ben

You know, I realised something the other day.

Miniman

You were wondering where your phone was, and it was in your hand the whole time?

Ben

00:53

I get that with my glasses a lot actually.

But actually, it's to do with Vertigo.

The easiest way that people depict vertigo, is they simply flip something upside down.

Well, the way our eyes work is that they refract light, which depicts an inverted image on our brains

So the question is, do we all experience vertigo, and are just used to it, or is our depiction of the world actually upside down?

It was one of those "shower thoughts", so there's likely one or two flaws in the logic haha

Hey @daze :D

BESW

Both as an artist and watching my father's slow battle with visual aberrations from Lewy bodies PD, the connection between the light entering our eyes and the information we become conscious of is a lot more complex, tenuous, and frankly hand-wavey, than we like to think.

daze413

@Ben maybe you were reading my chats and text in my voice all along, and there was no disconnect when you heard it the first time :o

it's the only logical explanation

Ben

@BESW The ultimate conundrum I am still perplexed by is how chemical reactions, and electrical signals turn into thoughts, memories, dreams, and so on.

The brain is truly a marvel

BESW

Aye.

Ben

@daze413 Maybe haha

daze413

01:08

@Ben But then you have those times where you enter a room, forget what you wanted to do then just leave

trogdor

@Ben indeed

daze413

@Ben Oh, and what about the times where it randomly recalls some embarrassing moment, you visibly cringe, and its gone

trogdor

@daze413 yes, this happens to me on occasion

BESW

@daze413 Ah, the event boundary effect, or "doorway amnesia."

Ben

@daze413 That annoying song that pops into your head

daze413

01:09

don't forget, also, how hard it is to return to automatic-breathing after you've entered manual breathing!

Ben

I have beaten that however - I just think about the Power Rangers Theme

I really think The Awkward Yeti comics cover all of these conundrums quite appropriately

BESW

Folding Ideas talks more on interpreting video games as text with "The Stanley Parable, Dark Souls, and Intended Play." Again, there's some intersemiotic potential for TTRPGs.

Ben

02:23

@BESW It is a really interesting point

BESW

TTRPGs have more room for "unintended play" that, in a video game, would be akin to bug exploits but in RPGs are generally considered features of the medium. And yet, it's very clear that operating outside a system's designed capabilities quickly and drastically changes the experience to the point where the game may become unrecognizably different.

That... does not look particularly legal.

RobertF

I was wondering about that myself.

The site popped up at the top of a google search for "pathfinder dungeon map pdf", so certainly lots of folks have seen this site.

BESW

Like, the chances of any one distributor having permission to freely share all those different properties are infinitesimal, and if they did it would be crowed to the heavens and their company name would be prominently displayed.

So, yeah, thanks for the thought but this isn't the sort of place that's interested in helping share those kinds of links.

Ben

I suppose that's usually up to the DM.
Player: "I stab him".
DM: "Umm, ok. Now another messenger comes and tells you to come to the palace".
Player: "I stab him too."
DM: "Ok, dude... stop"

RobertF

Your guess is as good as mine. I just found it yesterday.

BESW

02:31

→ 1 message moved to Trash

@Ben Well, again, that's kind of something we've come to assume is standard because in video games there's a final arbiter of what's allowed--the game engine. There's no actual need for any one individual to take on that role in a social game.

"GM as game engine" can be an elegant solution to some problems, but using it as a default can also cause many other problems.

(Especially since it carries with it an implication of impartiality that's actually unfair to the GM and inhibits a lot of the most awesome opportunities that are made available by not having an inhuman game engine.)

daze413

DM: "Glancing at the body, you see he's holding a not-"
Player: "Look a butterfly! Im'ma rip its wings out"

Ben

@daze413 In which case the DM can either say "Congrats, you now have a pair of butterfly wings", or devolve into a whole "butterfly effect" story arc.

BESW

@daze413 Roll Provoke to defend against a +6 attack against your conscience.

daze413

@Ben Topic Challenge: How can ripping out butterfly wings end with the death (or near death) of a PC. CC:@BESW

Ben

@daze413 The butterfly is a beloved pet/offspring of a much larger creature

BESW

02:45

In a D&D-like setting that's always trivially easy; it was the favored symbol of a rather petty god.

Miniman

@daze413 Turns out the local archmage just had one thing missing from his butterfly collection...

BESW

In a more modern setting, I'd probably go with "trampled by herd of enraged butterfly spotters."

daze413

caterpillar offspring sees its parent killed, vows revenge, takes one level of paladin and follows the PC around until they come up to a crucial BBEG fight, whereupon the butterfly flutters on the PCs face just as the BBEG is about to strike, which distracts the PC and kills him. Revenge complete

all in the span of 24 hours, of course. Because lifespan

Miniman

Wait, what difference does the paladin level make?

daze413

flavor... and a hit die

Ben

02:50

@daze413 Or, in a longer-arching story, the death of the butterfly leads to a plant species surviving, which kills off a herbivore, leading to the death of some carnivorous species, removing a valuable resource used in medicine, that the PC contracts from the butterfly.

From the butterfly biting them when they plucked their wings

daze413

It was a polymorphed Gold Dragon of Bahamut.... too short

Joel Harmon

@BESW I did mean explicit mentions of skin color in fantasy novels. However, I took 'fantasy' to mean medieval sword and sorcery. Your examples are much broader. In either case, my own memory is likely to blame for many errors; the only specific mention of skin color I can recall from S&S fantasy is Drizzt.

That is, I believe there are examples, I just remember nearly none of them.

BESW

Then Earthsea, Chalion, Inheritance, Broken Earth...

Joel Harmon

I've been recommended at least two of those, but haven't read any of them.

daze413

Wanted to start reading Earthsea, but have a ton of books I bought but havent read yet, so...

BESW

03:02

I can't get past Earthsea's prose style, but that's not a mark against the series itself. The others I recommend highly.

(Earthsea's an interesting example because Le Guin deliberately kept her protagonist's skin color subtextual for the first book or two, as she knew the specfic market at the time would dismiss the work otherwise. So she waited to establish the series' reputation first.)

Joel Harmon

is Inheritance the Paolini one or the Jemisin one?

BESW

Jemisin.

daze413

On prose, currently reading Arabian Nights after letting it sit in the shelf for months. I have the translation by Sir Richard Burton and am struggling to wrap my brain around the super-archaic english

Also disappointed there's no aladdin, sinbad, and that other story. haha

Joel Harmon

seems my list already has Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by Jemisin

BESW

I think that's the first in the series.

She also wrote Broken Earth.

Joel Harmon

03:08

that's what Google tells me

BESW

Also on that list is Okorafor's Who Fears Death. It's again something with a prose style that doesn't sit easy for me, but I've enjoyed some of her other works like Lagoon that aren't on the list because they're more on the scifi end of specfic.

Joel Harmon

is this your "to read" list or "to recommend" list?

BESW

The list of examples I gave you above.

RobertF

@BESW Wow, someone has already posted pdf copies of the 5e D&D books online. I bet this site will get taken down.

Wonder if WotC knows about this?

daze413

@RobertF probably not... yet?

BESW

03:15

@JoelHarmon My own to-read list is not small.

RobertF

I'm incredulous... I thought these illegal pdf sites were supposed to be difficult to find. It's right out there when you google...

BESW

Mm. That's what self-control is for.

Joel Harmon

@BESW reminds me of my wife's. She got to 200+ and decided she needed to read some of them before adding more.

BESW

The goodreads list is probably incomplete, I've just been adding to it as I remember stuff and am near the computer.

Joel Harmon

the "near the computer" caveat is why I started using my phone

BESW

03:19

For example, somehow I don't have Cthulhu Confidential on that list.

[rectifies]

Miniman

@RobertF There have been pdf copies of those books online since they were released. WotC is well aware of the general phenomenon, and specific sites go down on a regular basis.

BESW

@Miniman It must be like playing whack-a-mole with a particularly vulgar mole.

Miniman

@BESW Multiple moles, some of which never raise their heads above ground, I think.

RobertF

@Miniman pdf copies of the 5e Players Handbook and DM's Guide are available online?

Ben

@RobertF For purchase?

Miniman

03:24

@RobertF In droves.

RobertF

For purchase, not free right?

Miniman

@RobertF Free, illegal copies.

Ben

The thing is that ye, it is available for download. However since it is a licensed product, anyone other than licensed vendors selling the product (or listing for free download) is illegal

BESW

6

A: Is there a legal way to get D&D 5e core rulebook PDFs?

There is now a perfectly legal way of obtaining all the 5e data in a digital form. It is a program called Fantasy Grounds and it supports many other RPG's as well, it allows for conducting your games on-line, and has a free demo so you can try it out to see if it will be fit for your purpose. Als...

daze413

What is the latest DnD edition that has PDFs available online for purchase?

3.5?

nitsua60

03:27

@Papayaman1000 Shouldn't be. 16% chance of a reroll vs. a 20% chance of reroll... oh, wait a minute--you're rerolling all 1s? Then yes, d6r1 ad infinitum is just a slow method to d5+1.

Miniman

@daze413 Legally? 3.5, yeah.

Ben

@daze413 I've seen 5e available for purchase

Wait... no that was the published adventures

daze413

@Ben no, I meant, digital PDF ones. uhh... or you mean other books?

RobertF

@BESW Thanks for the link.

daze413

@Ben like DMGuild?

Ben

03:28

As in like, The Rise of Tiamat, those ones

daze413

oh? I didn't know that! Do they have Yawning Portal?

BESW

@RobertF Wizards has had a... long and fraught history... with online content for D&D.

Miniman

@Ben Sorry, legal PDFs of the full adventure? Are you sure?

Ben

reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/300zz1/…

Miniman

@Ben The supplements are different.

Ben

03:31

@Miniman I didn't investigate fully, but I would believe they'd simply be supplements

Miniman

They're the content from the Monster Manual, PHB, or DMG required to play the adventure if you only have the basic rules.

Ben

So, no, not the whole thing, but enough if you already know the rules

daze413

That's nice of them, I guess :)

Miniman

@Ben No, none of the adventure.

Ben

Well, again, I didn't investigate. Lol

RobertF

03:32

@BESW Yes. So now I'm curious who would show up at a game with an illegal 5e RPG pdf?

daze413

@RobertF How do you mean?

Miniman

@Ben So, for example, HotDQ includes an otyugh, but not otyugh stats. But the basic rules don't have otyugh stats, so to make sure people can play with just the adventure and the basic rules, the supplement has otyugh stats.

Ben

@RobertF Depends on the group

@Miniman Arrr. I see

RobertF

Well if you download an illegal copy of the 5e rulebooks - then what do you do with them?

Ben

I know of some people that have the full collection of illegal pdfs, and talk about them regularly (they don't brag about them or anything, they just don't hide the fact that they are the full pdf).

daze413

03:35

@RobertF they must have downloaded it for a reason?

nitsua60

@RobertF Read them or look things up when you're not in proximity to your physical books?

BESW

Same thing you'd do if you had a legal version, like I have for most of the games I play: put it on my laptop/tablet/phone to reference it during the game, read it on the go, print out character sheets from the back...

For most of my RPGs I don't have any physical material at all except what I produce myself.

Miniman

Use it to answer people's questions on the internet...

3

RobertF

I've wandered into a den of thieves... edging towards the exit slowly... no sudden moves... :)

nitsua60

I might know a GM who prints maps from downloaded pdfs rather than photocopying from the hardcover because it makes it easier to posterize/tile the maps to scale, have things line up square, ....

Ben

03:36

@Miniman You know, I always wondered how people did that so swiftly (cough)

BESW

Most of DriveThruRPG's traffic is PDF-only purchases.

Miniman

@Ben When I'm away from my books, mostly from the SRD, honestly.

(Which is one reason I don't generally put page references in.)

nitsua60

May 5 at 1:19, by nitsua60

@JoelHarmon I prefer having both. Maybe someday WotC will even figure out that I'd prefer to pay them for that privilege.

2

daze413

@Ben ughh.. [sweats internally] I just happened to be reading on that, actually.... Also, perfect memory.

RobertF

@Miniman Understood - that makes sense.

nitsua60

03:38

("both" = "physical and pdf")

Ben

Because... yeah... I always have trouble fumbling through the book.... especially when I'm at work.

nitsua60

@daze413 DMG p.237 is ability checks; PHB pp.194-6 is attack rules. Remember those two and you can go a long way =)

BESW

Heh. I used to have a half-dozen page numbers from the 3.5 PHB/DMG memorized.

Ben

The long and short of it though is this: It's your choice. Everyone has opinions about purchase over pirating and vice versa. Everyone has reasons, but the long and short of it is that here, on SE, we do not support piracy.

nitsua60

@Miniman I often just quickly search RPGSE user:me is:question $topic and can find some post that quotes the necessary passage, with page citation =)

daze413

03:42

@nitsua60 yeah, you can just put in a page number that's +/- 5 pages off, have someone comment "that's the wrong page!!1!" , and edit it to the correct page. Crowd sourcing ftw?

BESW

@nitsua60 Booleans are so awesome.

nitsua60

@daze413 Yeah, spellcasting rules are going to be PHB203 +/- a bit =)

daze413

I have DMG page 273-280 monster creation rules memorized

nitsua60

@BESW I suppose I really should memorize @Miniman's UID so that I can make that user:me OR user:miniman in there....

That'll cover a lot of 5e ground.

BESW

Heheh.

Miniman

03:44

@nitsua60 Yeah, searching this site for quotes often turns up something appropriate,

Ben

Speaking of... Enhancing a weapon (+1 and so on) that adds to hit and damage?

Miniman

@nitsua60 At one point I knew yours, cos you kept wanting queries done with it, and I still know mine.

nitsua60

The real question is: what pages do people have (physically) bookmarked? What little pieces of paper are sticking out of your PHB?

Miniman

@Ben Yep.

Ben

Well I was doing that wrong then haha

Miniman

03:44

@nitsua60 Some characters sheets inside the front cover.

nitsua60

@Ben Yes. DMG p. mumble mumble

RobertF

Oooo the old Midnight D&D 3.5 setting is available on drivethrurpg.

nitsua60

@Miniman Blanks? Pregen loaners? Production characters?

Ben

I still have so much that I need to fix on my Char Sheet lol @Daze @miniman

Miniman

@nitsua60 Characters on the go, theoretically, but now that I think about it neither of them are being used atm.

nitsua60

03:48

@Miniman nothing else?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Nah, I don't really ever use bookmarks.

daze413

@nitsua60 I fold important pages [braces for hate]

kidding, I'd never do that to my sacred texts!

nitsua60

@daze413 Which ones? I'm curious what information--suplemental or meta--people feel the need to add to the book =)

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 I wonder how many times you re-quoting yourself on this has been starred

daze413

@nitsua60 usually just the ones that are weirdly placed (not intuitive). Like, it sounds like jumping should be in strength checks or at least in combat rules, but its in the "Adventuring" chapter. The Madness mechanic in the DMG sounds like it should be in the Adventuring Options, but its in that one chapter, which is weird. Things like that

nitsua60

03:53

@JoelHarmon Looks like this is the first time! (The self-quote I often get re-starred is the four-fold theory of BESW.)

daze413

I also mark the pages in the spell description which starts a new beginning letter

Joel Harmon

I think I notice that one the most because it highlights my user name in it

Ben

@daze413 I feel like spells/magic are like that. The rules just seem... disjointed somehow, or at least to me the order doesn't make sense

nitsua60

@daze413 Oh, gosh... don't even get me started on the ~~organization~~ structure of the DMG. (One can't call it "organization.")

Ben

Aha! So I'm not crazy!

Joel Harmon

03:55

@Ben I wouldn't go that far

just that this isn't evidence you're crazy :)

also, am I the only one who would find a thumb index to be useful on D&D books?

Ben

Well, true. Not entirely. But in this case my sanity levels are not impeding my ability to comprehend the books

Joel Harmon

I'm sure it's been mentioned before that the books are more understandable if you're already familiar with similar books in the same system (or earlier editions)

nitsua60

Someone (one, por favor) mind dropping a comment on this post pointing out that it's a bit weak to stand alone, and reads halfway between a good answer ("here's a way we can know") and a comment on the other answer? I feel a little strange doing it myself, as I'm "the other answer."

Ben

@nitsua60 [copies... pastes]

nitsua60

Jul 18 '16 at 13:53, by nitsua60

I'm experimenting with a new method of querying SEDE: "write it yourself, rather than just pinging @Miniman."

Ben

03:59

Not really though. I'm re-reading your request out of context for the third time, and just realised I should probably look at the answers to get some reference.

The caffeine system has too much blood in it

nitsua60

@Ben Purify food and drink: get all that blood out of there.

Ben

daze413

@nitsua60 That sounds... terrifying, actually.

Ben

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 I think a big chunk of the problem is the DMG is both a rules introduction and a rules reference. I've also thought it was weird, but in pondering it I can't come up with a clearly superior organization for it

nitsua60

04:04

@JoelHarmon I've never taken on the project of trying to rearrange it myself, so I suppose I shouldn't critiize too badly. All I know is that approximately 1/3 of the time I go to look something (other than a magic item or a plane of existence) up I realize after a minute of flipping that I'm on the wrong side of the magic-item-divide.

Tonight: purple worm poision. Traps are before the magic items, but poisons are after it.

Another night: death cleric. Eladrin and anthropomorphic mice are after the divide, but death clerics are before it, in an NPC section.

Where's the AC of a stone door? Is it before the divide, in town and settlement building, or after, in combat options?

Miniman

Neither, It's in objects.

Ben

Completely off-topic... I just earned 3 badges, and 200 rep for providing an old and relatively well-known mechanic on a game nearly 10 yrs old

(On Arqade - not RPG... lol)

nitsua60

@Miniman ding ding!

Ben

Correction... 300 rep. And this question was asked less than 24 hours ago

And the answer I provided wasn't exactly answering the question asked... If anything I was expecting a few downvotes

I'll never understand the internet

nitsua60

@Ben Just remember that the rest of us are AIs placed here as part of an experiment on you. It makes it all easier.

Ben

04:14

That actually makes me feel more comfortable

Also: that one post on reddit

trogdor

04:30

@Ben I can't help but smile every time I see this XD

Ben

@trogdor I actually got a coffee to help focus for my next meeting, however that was cancelled, so now I have an elevated level on caffeine, with nothing to spend it on

trogdor

I try not to get any caffeine in me, but I still really like that Gif

Ben

lol

Ben

05:10

@daze413 I just realised... I have a friend (same timezone as myself) that might be interested in the DDaD game?

He's on Discord already

Ben

07:09

BESW

07:25

trogdor

lol

daze413

08:08

@doppelgreener b-but... Sci-fi has their own, though... :)

BESW

09:11

Scifi also has periodic turf wars over which cartoon shows about talking animals are worthy of topicality and which aren't.

trogdor

uuurrrgghh

I wish that was not a thing

I have not gone over there much because of that

BESW

I dunno, my favorite was when they started arguing about whether allegorical fantasy still counted as fantasy.

trogdor

well, I hate arguments like that

and besides which, it's enough for me to constantly lurk and often say stuff here

I barely go to other SE's except to answer stuff other people link

doppelgreener

09:48

@BESW but.... isn't.... isn't the answer right there in the name...?

BESW

Nope. Gulliver's Travels isn't fantasy because it's an allegorical travelogue and apparently genres are mutually exclusive. By rights it should have exploded for having three at once.

(Also nothing's fantasy if there's a framing conceit that even implies the fantastical elements were a dream.)

doppelgreener

@BESW I'll ask about Otherland (an alt-modern book about some people trapped in fantasy VR realms) and start an argument about whether it counts as scifi and whether it counts as fantasy

BESW

Or Witch and Wombat, in which a fantasy realm tries to get mortals to believe in them more by faking a VR entertainment franchise that just teleports mortals to the realm for a while.

(It's not as good as it sounds. There are union jokes with painful acronyms.)

trogdor

@BESW but,.... dreams are fantasies

BESW

Welcome to Prescriptivist Genre, a subset of Things Need Labels.

trogdor

09:58

not always cool/understandable/likeable fantasies, but,......

doppelgreener

@BESW Now I want George RR Martin to mention at the end of the last Song of Ice and Fire an epilogue where Bran wakes up and it was all a dream while he was recovering from his fall from the tower in the first book.

BESW

> "I wish dragons were real," he muttered wistfully as the nurse changed his bandage.

doppelgreener

Wait, does that mean Paprika isn't counted as Fantasy on scifi.se?

@BESW hahaha

trogdor

@BESW yes aaaalll of this

BESW

I don't think the "dreams don't count" school won out in the long run.

(I mean, I'd probably call Paprkia sci-fi if I had to give it a label more specific than specfic.)

BESW

10:18

However, last I checked The Wind in the Willows doesn't count because talking animals don't make a story fantasy unless there are also humans in the story.

doppelgreener

BESW

jwacalex

good nighttime

ACuriousMind

@BESW Redwall seems on topic though

BESW

Probably because it has ghosts and things.

nwp

11:01

dnd-spells.com works again

my emergency spell lookup is saved

I wish there was an official version of that with proper filters.

jwacalex

dnd beyond maybe?

(never used it, just heard of it)

BESW

And I wish we weren't making an automagically archived, aggressively seeded record of IP infringement, but we don't all get what we want.

6

kviiri

11:28

Got bored with the relative radio silence of Vincent Baker and mailed him about my books. Or rather, my book and the three books of my friends.

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 I supposed the easiest thing would be to put magic items in the back, but that implies treasure tables and end of adventure stuff should go right before it, which made between adventure placement awkward. Just didn't feel satisfying.

@BESW So, Thomas Covenant is out?

trogdor

@BESW wait, does this mean if orcs elves and dwarves are in something but humans are not it also isn't fantasy?

:P

BanjoFox

12:46

o.o

Adam

Hello everyone

nitsua60

Hiya.

BanjoFox

Hello :)

jwacalex

good nighttime, @Adam

nitsua60

13:05

Today in "your fantasy world isn't strange enough":

Darvaza gas crater

The Darvaza gas crater, known locally as the "Door to Hell" or ''Gates of Hell", is a natural gas field in Derweze, Turkmenistan, that collapsed into an underground cavern, becoming a natural gas crater. Geologists set it on fire to prevent the spread of methane gas, and it has been burning continuously since then. The diameter of the crater is 69 metres (226 ft), and its depth is 30 metres (98 ft). The crater is a popular tourist attraction. Since 2009, 50,000 tourists have visited the site. The gas crater has a total area of 5,350 m2. The surrounding area is also popular for wild desert camping...

Portal to the plane of fire, anyone?

eimyr

@nitsua60 Check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway

nitsua60

@eimyr Didn't even have to look--I'm a fan of that one already =)

eimyr

@nitsua60 how about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_rose_(crystal)

Trish

13:20

@nitsua60 And if you want to put Hell under ground... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire

godskook

@Trish, Hell IS above-ground. I don't know what you're talking about.....

Adam

@Trish Fire elementals are invading the underdark in Centralia it seems.

NautArch

@nitsua60 with regard to the math question, it still very much seems to me that if you remove the math, the question DOES boil down to are two characters of equivalent level (whether it be single or multiclassed of any variety) balanced.

godskook

@Trish well, so much for that silly bait. This:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

Is what I'm talking about.

NautArch

The rest of the details are unnecessary and only confuse the simplicity of the actual question.

kviiri

13:29

I think it's a fair question, to be honest.

godskook

@NautArch What does "balanced" mean in this context? Other than a poorly defined version of the FAR more specific/relevant "commutative"?

kviiri

@godskook That the order you take the levels in doesn't matter for the end result as long as the first level is fixed and the final levels are fixed, I gathered.

godskook

@kviiri Right, which is, more accurately described with the word "commutative", as far as I can see.

kviiri

That's related one of the things I hated in Savage Worlds, by the way. The advancement scheme allows for n different ways, with different XP costs, to reach a given assortment of stats so there's lots of bad optimization to be done for the likes of me :<

NautArch

@kviiri Not saying it isn't fair. I'm asking if the true question isn't about "comutative properties" etc. but whether or not a Wizard 3/Rogue 1 and Rogue 1/Wizard 3 are balanced. If something is balanced, then they should be "commutative".

kviiri

13:38

@NautArch "Balanced" usually means equally powerful. The question is more specific than that.

NautArch

@godskook Balanced meaning that when looking at the two characters, one of them isn't OP compared to the other. The idea that (hopefully) WoTC created a system where all things are generally equal (just maybe in different ways.)

@kviiri How is it more specific? What's the functional difference between the two ideas?

kviiri

@NautArch The vital line from the question: "So, for two characters with the same 1st level class and the same features, who reach the same levels in the same classes but different advancement paths (i.e., the order in which these features were gained was different), do they have the same game statistics?"

Equally powerful isn't enough, they'd have to have the same statistics.

godskook

@NautArch That definition of "balanced" is explicitly not a synonym of what the querent is asking.

NautArch

@kviiri Game stats meaning ability scores, HP, etc? If so, then they are different things - but then I don't understand the question or it's purpose.

BanjoFox

You guys have a way of picking nits to an utterly epic level :)

godskook

13:42

@BanjoFox I've got a B.S. in Math, "commutative" is my wheelhouse.

kviiri

@NautArch The purpose seems clear to me. Suppose you have planned a multiclassed build to a certain level, say six levels in Fighter and four in Warlock (the numbers are completely Stetson-Harrison, don't use them for real multiclassing kids).

Adam

@NautArch It's asking, assuming we remove random options like rolling for stats or hp, if two characters both start as for example, rogue 1 and end at rogue 4/fighter 3, then when they are both 7th level characters, they will be exactly the same statistically regardless of what order they took their levels in.

nitsua60

@NautArch I don't see it that way. The question boils down (to me, an ex-physicist) to whether the character's current state arises from a path-dependent or -independent space-time integration. And I'd argue that it's path-dependent, due to some factors that haven't been mentioned in any other answers and some that have, but I've got only 18 min until I have to be helping to run a symposium =D

Adam

It doesn't matter if I take 3 levels of fighter and then 3 more of rogue, or if I take 3 levels of rogue and then 3 of fighter, the end result is the same.

kviiri

@NautArch Surely you'd be miffed if at level 10 you realize your build is weaker than it should be, because you took the levels in the wrong order? Maybe taking two warlock levels first would've unlocked something nifty you now missed. Maybe taking the fighter levels first would've given a cumulative HP boost to higher levels.

T.J.L.

13:44

If they are created at that level? Yes. If they are advanced from 1 to that level? Maybe. In D&D3.x when working with prestige classes, you had to pay attention to class order due to prerequisites. In D&D5, classes do have pre-reqs, but they're just based on attributes - they're not nearly as restrictive.

BanjoFox

@godskook -- My viewpoint is that there are regular discussions on, seemingly, nuanced things about a game which, in my opinion, should be resolved with simple solutions for the sake of keeping the game fun.

But... to be fair, I barely understand the topic :)

kviiri

@NautArch This does not happen in DnD 5e, but it's not uncommon for RPGs to have mechanics where the order of level-up perks taken matters a lot. Therefore, I think the question makes perfect sense - the asker wants to know whether that is the case for DnD 5e.

nitsua60

^^

NautArch

@BanjoFox I"m barely understanding this myself - which is why I'm trying to get a better feel for it and understanding of it.

kviiri

:39056226 Because the question is whether it happens in 5e or not.

BanjoFox

13:47

Serious question: is there actual enjoyment in mathmatically optimizing character creation/development?

nitsua60

@BanjoFox What could you possibly mean?

@Mindwin I think your "ANY" two comments ago should be an "ALL" or "EVERY", no? I can edit it for you if you agree rather than you having to delete and re-comment. Respond-ping me if you'd like that. (Also, should be "operator" not "operand" in that sentence. Operand is an/the object of an operator, so x and y are the operands in that statement.) — nitsua60 ♦ 54 mins ago

NautArch

@kviiri my mistake - i thought you had just it does NOT happen in 5e.

kviiri

@NautArch It doesn't, and I don't understand the issue with that.

BanjoFox

@nitsua60 -- OT(?):I read the favorited post (regarding dead trees) and was wondering if I should add "Painted on the side of a cow" as an option ;)

godskook

Commutativeness is handy because it simplifies calculations. HP, in 3.5, is almost entirely commutative, the only exception I can think of offhand is 1st-level HP. Skill points similarly so(but not their investment in skills). Feats are obviously *not* commutative. Outside the above concerns, most base classes are Commutative, with the exceptions of ToB and Ardent.

But that's for 3.5. For this level of nitpicking, I can't answer for 5e.

kviiri

13:49

@BanjoFox I like optimization as a sort of puzzle game, but it doesn't really go hand in hand with how I really enjoy my RPGs. I mostly optimize DnD characters to not be underpowered, rather than to be overpowered.

godskook

@BanjoFox Trivial answer: Yes.

NautArch

@kviiri I think I just misunderstood your point when you said "it isn't for 5e"

BanjoFox

@kviiri @godskook -- hrm... bokay :)

NautArch

But if one class has a different HP die then another, then the answer must be no, they aren't commutative. You've immediately got a different variable.

kviiri

@BanjoFox Also, I find the potential to screw one's character up by poor optimization a detracting quality in RPGs.

@NautArch Intermediately, yes, but the user is asking about the final result.

godskook

13:51

@NautArch Outside first level, in 3.5, this isn't true. If I go Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Fighter +1 or Fighter 2/Wizard 1, those two progressions are commutative.

For the purpose of HP

How is it different in 5e, if its different.

NautArch

@kviiri ah, yes. I missed that.

okay, i'll just stay away from that question. It's a layer of granularity I don't see a need to invest in.

Adam

@NautArch The question isn't about if the different paths are the same at each step of the path, it's asking if different paths lead to the same destination, assuming they start at the same point.

kviiri

@BanjoFox one of the reasons I disliked Savage Worlds is how the order of skill/ability picks matters. For example, picking a new skill (for example advancing Gamblin' from untrained to d4) is cheaper when creating a character than when leveling up a character. It annoyed me to no end.

Practically, that means that building a character with a wide skill pool can be done very cheaply by buying all the desired skills to low levels at character creation, then leveling the skills up as desired, but conversely it's also possible to pick with a few skills at high levels and spend far more levels to reach the exact same result.

NautArch

@Adam i'm beginning to understand, but I've also learned I simply don't care about that particular issue/question :) I don't see it as an issue or a problem in character generation or advancement - mostly because I ~~think~~ hope that WoTC developed a system where generally things are balanced so I should focus on what I want to do with a character and how it should proceed instead of what is the most mathematically optimal way for me to do it.

T.J.L.

@NautArch Yeah... Most of the 3.5 "optimization" was actually "rules legal ways to break the game".

godskook

13:58

@kviiri I honestly and personally despise most forms of non-commutative game-mechanics. The more commutative your game-mechanics are, outside the prerequisite mechanic, the better, imho.

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