TRPG General Chat

godskook

15:00

@nitsua60 You've llinked that before :P

kviiri

@Erik I think seduce/manipulate is a very good example for games like DnD. First of all, it's guaranteed to be useful on success. You promise Stinky Joe you'll get his girl take him back if he helps you beat someone up? If you roll well, he absolutely will do it, and it's awesome. Easy on the GM too - no need to think about DCs or anything. Stinky Joe is in if it's a hit.

But it's also never a free move, they'll always want something, and that makes it even more interesting. Even on a hard hit, you must promise - you just might not have to keep your promise. But broken promises are interes…

nitsua60

@godskook Ah... your mention of "unaffiliated" PCs brought it to mind.

kviiri

Interesting success, interesting failure, that's what DnD social life needs!

Erik

Yes, I love those moves as well, but you'd have to expand D&D with more rules or mechanics to make it happen. And they won't be in the books, so it'll be a struggle. A worthwhile one, but still a struggle :)

godskook

Like.....I've had PCs:

Ask what the relevant local burial rites are for the dead because they found the dead slaughtered by raiders they just fought.

Talk to the primary villain of a short-plot *TWICE*, and then *GO ASK PERMISSION* before attempting to arrest her, and when she resisted, they still roll diplomacy until she surrendered.

Get into an arguing match with a warlord, that broke into "conversational initiative" for multiple rounds, without a single attack roll being thrown.

And I run almost straight 3.5.

kviiri

15:02

@Erik I'm more or less done with DnD anyway. I think it works reasonably well when everyone agrees to play it the same way, which is pretty much never :)

I would be quite content playing a hack and slash game with it. My second party, the one I'm mastering, is actually quite combat and exploration heavy.

@godskook Wow.

Erik

@godskook I've run those things as well, but I've found they flow more easily without using D&D at all.

kviiri

@godskook That sounds terrible :D

godskook

@kviiri What sounds terrible?

kviiri

@godskook Being able to bypass anything with diplomancery.

godskook

@nitsua60 is that chat of your comments still in existence in mod-land or is it gone entirely?

@kviiri Are...you talking about what I just said in the past few sends or are you calling back to earlier when I was talking about Diplomancy?

I'm confused.....

kviiri

15:07

@godskook The example story you just sent.

godskook

@kviiri There was no diplomancery happening there. The party Paladin was PISSED and was rolling intimidate checks on the Dragonlord NPC while the other 2 party members kept rolling diplomacy checks with minimal bonuses to calm things down.

nitsua60

@godskook The comments on that answer I linked?

godskook

@nitsua60 Yeah

nitsua60

here?

kviiri

@godskook Wow, that sounds weird. I'm all in for social mechanics in DnD but that's a bit extreme indeed.

nitsua60

15:10

@godskook Oh, that room's "deleted for inactivity." So you might need to be 10K to see it right now. If you're interested I can ~~probably~~ undelete.

godskook

I'm interested

And yeah, I can't see it.

nitsua60

@godskook if you click on that link six messages back does it work now?

godskook

Yuppers

nitsua60

'kay, good. (Not much there, really.)

godskook

@nitsua60 yeah, but hindsight is 20/20

Erik

15:21

It's always nice to revisit that question, by the way. I guess it's the highest voted question on rpg.se for a reason

And a lot of what is written in the answers should really make its away in the games more :)

kviiri

Interestingly, I've never had a DnD party who tried to kill things beyond what was meant to be killed.

NautArch

In our session friday, we had our very first "we surrender". And it was close.

godskook

@kviiri Your answer on jumping 5' grid-squares seems odd to me. In 3.5, I know I'd run it as you'd need to be able to long-jump 5', AND be able to move 10' in order to clear the jump, but that's different from what you're saying.

kviiri

@godskook What part in particular?

Erik

@kviiri lucky you. I've had parties who tried to kill everything that might feasible be killable

godskook

15:25

@kviiri you said "must be able to long-jump 10' ", I'm saying "must be able to long jump 5' and move 10' "

Erik

I had to build stories around the idea that they would kill literally everything that moved, and most of what didn't.

kviiri

@godskook By move, you mean the running start before the jump, right? Or am I not understanding something?

godskook

Well, actually, no.

The running start would be additional.

kviiri

Where does the ten feet come from then?

godskook

So, if the squares are:

123H5

Where 1, 2 or 3 is the PC's starting position, H is the pit, and 5 is the destination square.

Well, for simplicity, let's say he starts at 1.

kviiri

15:28

@Eric They sometimes hesitate to kill even things that are meant to be killed, and I've yet to see a single time where they do stuff like attack a peasant for not sharing information or a shopkeeper who didn't offer hero discounts :P

godskook

He must have 20' of move to clear the pit, but only needs 5' of jump distance.

In how I'd run it in 3.5

kviiri

It's probably how I'd run it in 5e too.

godskook

@kviiri That's different from your answer :P

kviiri

@godskook No it's not.

The answer is about what the book says, and I'm clear about the rule not really making sense to me.

godskook

"Strictly speaking, to clear a 5-foot pit that covers an entire grid tile, you would need to be able to jump at least 10 feet." - Kvirri

kviiri

15:30

@godskook Yes, that's the RAW.

Also me: "It's fair to say the rules don't make sense in these two instances."

The point being: the OP's GM ruled that 5 foot jump isn't enough to clear a 5 foot pit when playing with the grid. My answer: the GM is right, if you play by the raw, but it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

godskook

The rules quote you give does not convince me that this is the RAW way of running it.

kviiri

Seriously? How else do you interpret "This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments."?

godskook

"must be able to move 10' to reach the square on the other side"

kviiri

Yes?

Because if you only jump 5 feet, you're in the tile with the pit, not beyond the pit.

godskook

But that doesn't contradict the idea that you only need to long-jump 5' of it

As long as you move the other 5' of ground-space.

kviiri

15:34

But you can't, because there's not five feet of ground space between you and the pit.

godskook

So?

kviiri

What's your point of confusion? The rules explicitly state you can only move in five foot segments

Oh, it's a stupid rule in this case, that I'm very much in agreement in with you. And I wouldn't play it straight, but apparently OP's DM does.

godskook

And moving 10' across a 5' pit is in "five foot segments".

If you're reading that to mean "you must be able to stop on each 5' segment"

then its physically impossible to make a 10' jump

kviiri

No, stopping has nothing to do with it. It's about the atomic distance.

NautArch

@kviiri are you basically saying that to clear a 5' pit, you need to jump more than 5'?

kviiri

15:39

Crossing a five-foot chasm with a ten-foot jump? Fine: it's 5 feet of jump to the tile over the chasm, and then five feet of jump to the tile beyond the chasm.

godskook

And atomically, he's moving 10', which is in "five foot segments". Is there some rule that jumping must abide by this atomic measurement?

kviiri

@NautArch RAW, yes.

nwp

Jun 13 at 15:12, by MadMAxJr

"Your pen light does not light up five feet!" "But that's the smallest unit of measurement in the game!" "Fine, all ants are now five feet long. Roll initative."

kviiri

@godskook Yes, the one I provided earlier. Moves must be in five-foot segments.

nitsua60

@NautArch Yeah, because in grid-world "the edge of the pit" is neither a valid launch-point nor landing-point.

kviiri

15:41

So basically, you need to cover the distance of ten feet. That means you get two moves for it. Jump-jump works. What other options are there? Walk-walk clearly doesn't, you'll end up in the pit in the middle. Walk-jump doesn't work either - you'll fall after your first walk. Jump-walk? Same, sad story.

Walk 2.5 feet, then jump 5 feet, then walk 2.5 feet? That's what I would allow, but the rules don't, since 2.5 feet is not a 5 foot segment.

And that's probably the reason why OP's DM doesn't allow it either.

NautArch

@nitsua60 that...makes sense. If you're in one grid spaceand spend 5' of movement, you're simply in the adjacent grid space(which is the hole.) In order to move to the other side (two grid spaces), you'd need 10' of movement.

godskook

@kviiri as far as I can tell, the rules on movement that you're quoting don't care one bit how you move that 5', as long as you do. YOu can move 2', jump 1', move the last 2', or jump 4.5', and then walk the last .5', or w/e, as long as you move 5', that rule's stipulations are satisfied.

kviiri

@NautArch But note, that's only true when playing on a grid, and that depends on where the pit is.

@godskook Hmm, that's a very interesting take on it, but that's not how it's intended. Otherwise they wouldn't recommend recording speed in "squares".

NautArch

@kviiri yes, but the grid is an abstraction and the theory still holds that you'd need more than 5' of movement to clear a 5' hole without a problem.

I think the DM may be playing it harder than he needs to, but I understand why as well to play off that 5 strength and give it meaning.

godskook

@kviiri Huh? I don't understand how you're getting to that "otherwise" at all.

kviiri

15:45

@NautArch No, without a grid I'd argue a five feet jump is enough to clear a five foot chasm. The book leaves it ambiguous.

godskook

@kviiri And if its "intended", how do you know that?

nitsua60

@NautArch Eh, "Jump 5', hit the far edge of the pit, DEX save to see whether or not you actually balance or teeter backward into the pit."

kviiri

@godskook Based on what I just said, of course.

NautArch

@nitsua60 I could see that being the kindest way to do it.

kviiri

@godskook Clearly if they instruct you to store your speed in squares instead of feet, they intend the speed to be used square by square.

godskook

15:46

@kviiri You've provided nohting to me that would lead me to believe that your interpretation is intended.

kviiri

@godskook I did, you just didn't understand it yet.

NautArch

@godskook intended or accurate? I think it's definitely accurate (see my analysis), but don't know whether or not it's intended.

kviiri

Say you've got 15 feet of flying movement, for example, and 30 feet of walking movement. I can totally buy that they'd allow me to move 4 feet of flight and 1 foot of walking, to leave me 11 feet of flying movement and 29 feet of walking movement. But I don't see why they instructed me to shift them to squares if they intended me to record this as 2 1/5 squares of flying movement and 5 4/5 squares of walking movement.

godskook

@NautArch Based on what @kviiri has provided so far, I'm inclined to say that kviiri's interpretation is neither accurate of RAW nor intended as RAW.

@kviiri Jumping uses your land-speed for distance calculations in 5e, right? If so, jumping into alternate movement modes with varying speeds is only going to add a layer of complication onto this that we don't need.

kviiri

@godskook I just don't see a reason why they'd use different logic.

nwp

15:53

I want to challenge this answer as an unfair comparison because in DnD you have a soul that can be trapped and tormented whereas in this world only religious crazies believe that death is something more than just death. Except people will be offended and that is not nice -.-

godskook

@nwp

1. calling people crazies in *chat* probably violates "Be Nice"

2. You can avoid that by just pointing out the objective truth within the 5e system. No need to bring real-world context into it at all.

3. In 3.5, skeletons and zombies do not harm the soul of the deceseased, iirc, just prevent ressurection. Is this different in 5e?

BanjoFox

lol

kviiri

@godskook I'm pretty sure 3 is the same in 5e. No soul tampering involved. Hold on a tick, I'll check that out for you.

nwp

@godskook 2. doesn't hold. The point is that organ donor in this world has much less risk than body donor in DnD. But it wasn't a serious point anyways.

Also seeing your dead loved ones working on a field 24/7 is different than knowing they are dead and some organ is in some other person.

nitsua60

@nwp citation: Pet Sematary

=)

nwp

16:01

Although I guess one could make it culturally so that undead are not considered the same person. Not sure how well that would work.

kviiri

@godskook It says a skeleton (as in, the undead creature) can be resurrected to restore its "body and soul" and that this banishes the malignant spirit within. This implies a soul is unharmed by the ordeal of being undead. This kind of undead, at least.

GreySage

@nwp In my opinion that would already be the cultural norm. In most DnD worlds, undead are a reality and have been for effectively forever. It's not like the opening of a zombie movie where everyone has to come to grips with the idea

kviiri

5e monster manual, p272

@GreySage That depends a lot on your particular DnD world. I've come to understand usually common folk see undead (or any magical beings) far less often than adventurers do.

godskook

@nwp It entirely depends on the culture surrounding the undeath. The Saphirre Guard in OotS provides a form of undeath that's quite acceptable to a devout LG peasant.

And then there's the undying Elves of Eberron, the elites of the Elves. They don't ping evil(but use different rules from other undead in 3.5, so....)

GreySage

@kviiri Of course your mileage may vary, but even well protected villages would have heard stories of undead. They would be the equivalent of old war stories, known, but not experienced by the majority of the population first hand

kviiri

16:09

@GreySage Yeah, that's right.

nwp

Although without internet/tv/newspapers you wouldn't hear that much. Most people would only know stories from travelers, and those are probably told for entertainment value, not for knowledge gaining.

godskook

I mean, let's be honest, if the Cleric of Wee Jas assures you that donating the dead to the church incurs the Goddess' favor, you donate your husband's body to the church. What they do with that donation is no longer your concern, and if it is truly done in the name of Wee Jas, then depending on setting, there's no more evil than that setting ascribes to creating undead in the "ethical" case.

kviiri

@nwp There's a newspaper in my DnD game, if only to post exposition and jokes between sessions ;)

GreySage

@godskook And if the body is used to create a skeleton (highly recommended, as it avoids so many olfactory and hygiene problems), people wouldn't even recognize it as the person it used to be, so no emotional attachment problems.

nitsua60

@GreySage And you don't have to feed it. Or, rather, when you feed it you can just pick the food up off the ground and proceed to feed it to the next skeleton, and the next, and the next...

GreySage

16:20

@nitsua60 I... don't know how to feel about that link...

nitsua60

@GreySage Spooked?

GreySage

Disturbed

Amused

Frustrated with my inability to type this morning

It's a great big cocktail of emotions

godskook

Basically, body donation to necromancers comes down to two setting components: How much arbitrary hate for necromantic fiddling with bodies there is, and how much real violation of others is there.

In Greyhawk, afaik, the answer to both is "a lot", and arguably, sourcing body-parts through stone-to-flesh wouldn't even work, due to the horribly evil connotations of undead in that setting. In Eberron? It might be ok to raise ethically-sourced Skeletons.

Yuuki

16:34

@godskook IIRC, there's a nation in Eberron that does exactly that.

The national army is undead and it's considered a great honor and patriotic service to your country to volunteer to essentially donate your body to the military.

Yuuki

17:01

According to Google, Karrnath?

godskook

@Yuuki that's what I'm seeing too.

Yuuki

Apparently they have terrible agriculture and a smaller population and therefore have to rely on an undying army to not get invaded by their neighbors.

GreySage

@Yuuki Why would you ever NOT rely on an undying army?

godskook

Although what I'm finding doesn't make it clear if they're an evil nation, and that's why they have no qualms about it or if there's simply no in-world reason to have a qualm, and so they're merely pragmatists.

Yuuki

@GreySage Well, for one, depending on the undead, they might still be rotting corpses. Might be a health concern there.

nwp

17:04

@GreySage Because Turn Undead would be really inconvenient.

Yuuki

And also, it's difficult to have diplomatic relations when other nations don't like you relying on an undying army.

godskook

@Yuuki Pretty sure that's a plot-point in Erfworld :P

BanjoFox

17:18

3

B. S. Morganstein

Friends, random question: I'm DMing my first session in 5e later tonight, any general advice? I've written a campaign that should prove fun, and the players have done some reading of the PHB about the game and their characters (premade, taken from the DnD website). Just looking for general DMing advice, and how to maximize the chances the session will run smoothly tonight

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein

1.Prepare villains, not plot

2.Be clear about both the Player social-contract and the Player's characters' social-contract.

GreySage

@B.S.Morganstein When in doubt, don't spend a lot of time looking up rules. A quick glance at the PHB or an SRD is fine, but most of the time you'll just want to make a quick ruling and keep the game moving. Looking up rules isn't fun.

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein Be clear about the style of game you expect to run.

B. S. Morganstein

@godskook What do you mean by social contract? Like the types of things they're expecting from the game, and I'm expecting from them as PCs?

Delioth

17:27

@B.S.Morganstein Make sure you're playing the same game as your players; if some people are playing a silly game and others are playing an immersive grimdark campaign and one guy is playing an anime, things aren't gonna work out

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri You mean combat focused, diplomacy focused, etc?

Delioth

@B.S.Morganstein Both that and how "silly vs serious" the game will be

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein If you have a Paladin and a Necromancer in your party, and its not Eberron, something has gone HORRIBLY wrong about making the social contract clear.

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein For example, yep. It can avoid a lot of sticky situations.

B. S. Morganstein

@Delioth Got it, hopefully that shouldn't be a problem as we've all decided in advance to play a more serious adventure, with room for silliness

@godskook We've got a Paladin, and the villain is a necromancer, so hopefully it should make sense

kviiri

17:28

@B.S.Morganstein For example, we had a player play a dedicatedly pacifist character in 4e, which is a heabily combat-oriented game.

@B.S.Morganstein For example, we had a player play a dedicatedly pacifist character in 4e, which is a heavily combat-oriented game.

...does the edit functionality on android browser reallt duplicate messages, or is it just me?

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri Gotcha, I don't think that will be a problem

Delioth

@kviiri It duplicated messages

GreySage

@kviiri It did, yes

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein Great :)

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein I wouldn't assume that all your players will pick up on this "subtlety"

kviiri

17:32

@B.S.Morganstein Some more practical advice: look up the monsters you intend to use from the books in advance, mark their pages. I also find it helpful to write their HP, AC, to-hit and damage down as a table in my notebook, so I don't have to crack open the book for the most common stats all the time if there are multiple types of monster in the encounter.

@B.S.Morganstein (assuming you start at level 1) and tend toward easier encounters. First level characters are frail, it takes only a single lucky hit by pretty much anything to take one out for squishier classes.

@B.S.Morganstein And whenever one of your players does something cool, particularly heroic or otherwise awesome, grant them inspiration. Set the tone for that stuff early on ;)

GreySage

@B.S.Morganstein I like to have a spread sheet open with all my PCs HP, AC, and Passive Perception (I also have one for all my monsters) so I can look up things quickly

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein If you design your own encounter maps, avoid bottlenecks unless you know what you're doing. They're cool in theory but slow the action down in practice.

@B.S.Morganstein If you plan on rewarding your players with magic items, write their description on a slip of paper beforehand and pass it to the player upon them finding the item. Alternatively, time magic item drops to the end of the session so you have time to prepare such a slip for the next session :)

GreySage

@kviiri What is the intent behind this?

kviiri

@GreySage To prevent a long pause when the player writes it down carefully to prevent mistakes, which will happen anyway. It's anticlimatic to receive a magical sword or something only for the GM to spend the next five minutes looking up its stats, reciting them to a party member, and hoping they get it right when taking notes. Furthermore, it's occasionally handy to have an "official" description of the item available somewhere.

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri I've already done exactly that with the monsters, to save time looking everything up

kviiri

17:44

@B.S.Morganstein Splendid!

Delioth

There's also the bonus of keeping the item's properties secret should the player choose

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri But inspiration points is a good idea I hadn't considered. Know where in the PHB or DMG I can read more about it?

kviiri

@Delioth Hadn't thought of that, but excellent point.

@B.S.Morganstein I'll look it up. Basically it's free advantage to a d20 roll, given as a reward for good RP.

GreySage

@B.S.Morganstein DMG pg 240

B. S. Morganstein

Ahh ok, so its not adding to the roll, but providing advantage for havign done something cool in the past?

Delioth

17:45

@kviiri Yeah, in the only 5e I play in (and missed the last session for) I'm told that there's a dragon. And I'm pretty sure the rest of the party doesn't know that I (Warforged Barbarian) has the Dragonslayer

B. S. Morganstein

@GreySage Thanks, I'll go take a read

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein Also PHB p 125

@B.S.Morganstein Yep, it's like that.

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri Great, thanks for the suggestion

kviiri

@B.S.Morganstein Two more things: be clear when you bend the rules. It's fair to the players to know when things are not supposed to go by the book. For example, in our party we've agreed to not play by the hunger and weight restrictions as long as things stay sane.

@B.S.Morganstein The second thing: you're going to be fine! Trust yourself and your players, and take it easy :)

B. S. Morganstein

@kviiri Thanks for the faith! I think it will be fine, I've Dm'd before, just not in the last year or so, and never in 5e, so it'll be a new experience for sure

Ryan

18:18

@nitsua60 played Advanced D&D 1st Ed over the weekend. Such a different feel. Can really tell the Strategy War-game Roots. I really like it a lot. And not sure if this is just DM differences but it was also a lot more organized and civilized than the 5E group I was playing with.

Yuuki

Median age? AD&D is an older version that might lend itself towards an older population.

And while age certainly isn't a predictor of maturity, I think there's some correlation?

godskook

@Ryan Careful, sounds like there's a LOT of possible causes to the distinction. Quite hard to separate those out.

nitsua60

@B.S.Morganstein Listen actively, and don't be afraid to tell the group "I need a minute--I just need to [make a note|remind myself of a stat|figure out what-all's going on in this place I never expected you'd be]." (Also, while you're doing that stuff, keep listening!) Take notes.

Delioth

@nitsua60 @B.S.Morganstein And if you feel you need more than a small moment, tell everyone to take 5 - get a drink, take care of bodily functions, order some pizza, anything that might disrupt the session later in some capacity.

nitsua60

@Ryan Glad to hear it went well! I was just musing over 1e on my post-lunch constitutional. A friend of mine nailed down something that's been on my mind for years: I love the illustrations, and they're so low-quality. What's going on? The way the friend put it: "they're clearly punching above their weight."

I look at that half-orc, or that carrion crawler and think (a) "that's not a good drawing," (b) "I can't draw one that well," (c) "that author must have spent hours and hours on that crappy drawing," (d) "there's something to a labor of love."

B. S. Morganstein

18:33

@nitsua60 Yeah verbalizing like that makes sense. And @Delioth, I've already planned in advance a moment where a break for food/drinks makes sense

nitsua60

@Delioth Good point--I actually have a timer set to remind me to do that about 60% of the way through the session whether I "need" it or not. Because (a) I do need it, whether I realize it or not; (b) someone needs it, for sure!

Delioth

@B.S.Morganstein Planning moments? You sure players are going to hit that moment at the pacing you're expecting? If I have any GM experience, my players (maybe not yours) will spend 2 hours in the 10 minute scene, or blow through the 2 hour dungeon in 10 minutes. Not in the same session either, so it won't just balance out. YMMV though

GreySage

@Delioth Yes, sometimes the PCs don't want to accept that no one in the tavern has anything interesting to say any more

BanjoFox

lol

B. S. Morganstein

@Delioth Yeah I'm aware that planning encounters in advance is a risky move. But it's immediately after entering the only town near where the adventure begins for them, so I'm fairly confident it'll happen

Delioth

18:38

@GreySage It's worse when they go exploring the manor where they're attending the party.... and loot the place since everyone is in the main ballroom and not the armory or personal chambers

BanjoFox

XD

Papayaman1000

*sigh*

why do I try to balance my encounters anymore

BanjoFox

@Papayaman1000 personal sense of masochism?

Papayaman1000

"So, ya know how you three died to an Oni (barely), and even then only because the Ranger dropped at the last second?"
"Uh huh."
"Well, he dropped again, and now you're all up against a Hydra. I balanced this encounter to be hard for all four of you, even taking into account Gestalt and all. You're probably gonna TPK, but good luck anyways."
[Proceeds to kill Hydra in three turns as a trio of Level 4s]

BanjoFox

The more I listen to you guys the more I feel that D&D is a LOT of work and may not be worth the effort LOL

Papayaman1000

18:47

this is why we can't have nice things

@BanjoFox Oh, it's definitely worth it. If you're a player.

As a GM, however... I've been questioning that since the '90s.

nitsua60

@BanjoFox D&D is like an old car: you can bang around in the thing and it may make some strange creaks and groans, but turning up the radio'll take care of that. Or you can sink all your spare time into gussying it up.

BanjoFox

LOL

Papayaman1000

Hence why I stopped trying to run a serious campaign since 10 minutes into character creaWHY ARE YOU TAKING A ROCK GNOME FOR THAT

nwp

@Papayaman1000 maybe you need some of this

BanjoFox

This is what I envision:
Banjo runs a D&D campaign, spends 6-8 weeks planning every nook and cranny balances every encounter perfectly and comes up with a great plot.
Players come in make a left turn instead of a right, get lost in the metaphorical woods and Banjo ends up having to make everything up on the fly.

Zachiel

18:53

@doppelgreener YEEEEAAAHHH

@BanjoFox Welcome to "players"

Papayaman1000

@BanjoFox Friend. If you want to DM, the first thing you need to accept is that the more agency you give your players, the more work that's going to go unseen.

GreySage

@Papayaman1000 Which isn't really a problem, because you can just reuse that unseen content later

Papayaman1000

@GreySage Right!

BanjoFox

@Zachiel @Papayaman1000 -- Exactly... which is why I don't ever "plan" my games.

GreySage

@BanjoFox Except you need a plan, so that you can change the plan when you need to. If you don't plan, then you are literally just making stuff up as you go along, which will never be as nice as something you have planned out

Yuuki

18:55

Rule #5 of being a DM: If you have no idea what you're doing, there's no way your players can derail you.

9

BanjoFox

@GreySage It usually works in non-D&D scenarios :D

godskook

@BanjoFox Prepare Villains with schemes, not plots with plotlines.

5

Papayaman1000

This isn't a bad thing. Player agency is good. It's the sole reason I can convince my group of basement dwellers to assemble on a weekly basis to pretend slice a pretend orc in his pretend face with a pretend sword. Good things require more work. More good needs more work, on some level or another.

@Yuuki I feel like this needs to be a meme.

nitsua60

@BanjoFox Sounds about right. But "no prep is ever wasted." I'm not talking about dropping the encounter back in their path quantum-style, just saying that time spent prepping makes you better at improvising, things prepped-but-unused sit there composting in your brain until something new and glorious grows from them, and prep is the part of the game you get to play (a lot!) even when the players aren't around =D

Papayaman1000

"Players can't derail your plans / If you never make plans"

godskook

18:57

@Papayaman1000 Taps Head

Zachiel

@Miniman Gough is an awesome bro. I only regret not managing to get the tail. Ciaran is also an awesome fem-bro and I will never attack her (and I also let Priscilla live, and saved the other bro. And should I play NG+ I know I will miss those weapons again).

GreySage

@nitsua60 Honestly, prep is fun. It's like playing with little toy animals and action figures, but it's socially acceptable for an adult

doppelgreener

Papayaman1000

@GreySage ...debatably.

@doppelgreener [bows]

BanjoFox

@nitsua60 - I get the purpose of why to build an elaborate [thing], but knowing my players they will continue to avoid [that thing] unless I throw them into a dark pit and dump it on their heads :3

godskook

18:59

@GreySage I just spent the better part of a day rejigging Hobgoblin Regulars from RHoD.

GreySage

@nitsua60 I also am a fan of the "Quantum-hallway".

godskook

I gotta get to the rest of the NPC list....

Although, on the bright side, the higher-level foes won't be so bad to rework because the PC are E6-esque, and thus, the CR 10s will be threatening as-is.

doppelgreener

@godskook i agree with this. if you've got an actual plot, it's almost a guarantee your players will destroy it from the outset without realising it. instead prepare individuals with plans, desires, personalities, etc, and let your players walk in on their lives and start causing trouble.

Zachiel

@doppelgreener That's precisely where I wish I had more training in "making NPCs react realistically"

godskook

@Zachiel Micro or Macro?

Zachiel

19:03

@godskook I guess both? I don't now where the line is.

godskook

Cause it FREAKED my players out when the Druid-villain gently kissed the soul-energy-ball of a person she half-arsed-rezzed in one of my sessions.

Yuuki

That sounds unsanitary.

godskook

@Yuuki THAT is your take-away? Ok....

Yuuki

Getting someone's mouth germs all over your intrinsic soul essence seems like a recipe for disaster.

6

Maybe a metaphysical plague or something.

Ryan

@Yuuki yes I do think age played a role. There was definitely one younger and the rest were older than me - everyone playing had careers though. Compared to the 5e group where I was the oldest and everyone else was still in college

BanjoFox

19:10

@Ryan darn kids!

Delioth

@BanjoFox Protip: Fireball is incredibly effective at getting the kids off your lawn

Yuuki

@godskook I have trouble RPing on occasion because I can't help but make weird comments that I know are OOC but... just can't help it.

godskook

@Zachiel Well, I find that if I flesh out how the NPC sees the world sufficiently, they tend to play fairly realistically too, at least once my PCs know the behind-the-scenes stuff.

BanjoFox

@Delioth - and potentially burning it in thr process ;)

Delioth

Though the lawn may not be intact for long at that point

GreySage

19:11

@Delioth Downside: police intervention. Upside: No more kids will be on your lawn (because the lawn is gone now too)

BanjoFox

@GreySage -- Also being accused of sorcery/witchcraft sage nod

godskook

@Yuuki Find a One-world-by-night group or other LARP group that stays mostly-in-character, that helped a bit for me.

Delioth

@GreySage Upside: wizards do what they want. Downside: Wizards probably can't grow lawns as quickly as druids

GreySage

@godskook I am curious, what do you consider to be the difference between a villain with a scheme and a plot with a plotline (that has a villain in it, obviously)

godskook

@GreySage if you have a plot and a plotline, you know where the PCs will be in "X units of progress" from now.

If you have a Villain with schemes, you know where the Villain will be until the PCs go stop him.

If they go do something else entirely, your villain just completed his scheme entirely.

Zachiel

19:15

And that is true for every part of the scheme as well.

GreySage

@godskook This is assuming that the scheme is time-sensitive then

godskook

@GreySage Eh?

Delioth

@GreySage I'm not godskook, but in my mind plot/plotline has defined actions and implies that it's a story with a properly intended act and outcome. But a villain with a scheme has things s/he wants to do and probably a plan for accomplishing them, but there is no real intended "stuff" for the players to specifically do.

GreySage

@Delioth This makes sense to me, with the addendum of requiring, say, the pc find the purple key to open to purple door. Things like that

godskook

@GreySage Finding the purple-key is more plot/plot-line-y

GreySage

19:18

I still don't understand @godskook 's pov though

godskook

@GreySage Delioth was explaining what's basically my pov.

Delioth

@GreySage Yeah, puzzles can have intended solutions (though unintended solutions ought to be accepted if they make sense), but the whole overarching action shouldn't have a designated path (there isn't a "right way", there is just whatever way the PC's make; which also happens to lighten the prep load).

GreySage

@Delioth I agree. If I put a locked door in the way, they can find the key OR come up with some other solution.

But isn't a villain with a scheme just a simple plot line? Uncover scheme -> find villain -> defeat villain

nwp

@GreySage "I hit the door with my battleaxe!" "Again?" "Yes! And I rolled a total of 22 on my strength check!"

GreySage

@nwp Yes, although if the door is important, they may need to do more than just hit it (or hit it REALLY hard).

godskook

19:23

@GreySage to take an example from my game:

Hector Valois, Dragonlord of the Valosian Nursery, was conquering the 4 nations he was surrounded by. The PCs were charged, by their "guild" to handle this problem, more or less how they saw fit.

Their initial solution was to set up a peace summit and negotiate the whole thing out with the Dragonlord. I did *NOT* prep for that prior to them telling me this, nor did I prompt it in the slightest.

Problem was, for the PCs, that Hector was a despot, and was perfectly willing to negotiate a favorable 5-nation dictatorship for himself that was at le…

If the PCs hadn't arranged a peace summit, there wouldn't have been a peace summit at all. If the PCs had failed in usurping Hector, Hector would've become the ruler of the Western Alliance.

Yuuki

Which was eventually opposed by the WE-notsostern Alliance. They're nice guys.

GreySage

@Yuuki Everyone likes the notsosternians.

godskook

And the Oldest-Dragon was a complete and utter curve-ball for me to work with, as while it played with my overall lore, it had absolutely nothing to do with the current "story".

But overall, the whole thing worked quite well.

And now I lean on that area for future story-telling.

nwp

@GreySage I think the point is that if you say "There is an evil cultist doing evil things, PCs go and defeat him" you have no clue what to do when the PCs try to talk or let him escape. If you say "There is a cultist who wants to make a pact with a demon in order to gain warlock powers in order to escape from his mundane life" you have a pretty good idea what he will do and say in any situation.

GreySage

@godskook putting aside the dissonance that "pcs wanting to talk to the villain" and "the villain wanting to talk" being a problem for the pcs creates, that still just sounds like a super simple plot, consisting of "Stop the bad guy".

@nwp So you just mean flesh out and develop the villains more

Delioth

19:28

@GreySage No, that isn't a villain with a scheme, it's a plotline. As is, you're presuming what the players will do. Don't assume anything that the players will do, or it's a plotline. You can know what the villain will do since you control the villain, but if you presume what players will do you're writing a story and presuming a "correct" outcome.

The players could always team up with the villain, or decide that there are bigger problems, or not go to defeat him directly but instead invalidate his scheme. If he plans to flood the city but they go to find [city-teleporting artifact] and move the city somewhere else... he's not really defeated, but his scheme didn't succeeed.

nwp

@GreySage I think so. The minimum is they must have a goal, a strategy to achieve that goal and a fear that is more than just not achieving the goal. The villain has a clear goal that he/she/it will act out with or without the PCs and is thus inherently immune to plot derailment.

GreySage

@nwp This I agree with 100%.

I'm still trying to digest what @Delioth and @godskook are talking about

Yuuki

I'm imagining a scenario where adventurers interrupt a cult meeting and kill the leader only to be run out of the town because the town leaders don't want trouble from the national cultist union.

GreySage

From what I am understanding, you (general you) are suggesting that the GM creates a world, including a villain or source of conflict, and then lets the PCs loose to do anything they want without stipulating things like, "To get to the villains lair, you need the purple key", EVEN IF those obstacles etc. have other ways to get around like, depending on PC creativity or obscure skillset.

nwp

"To get to the villains lair, you need the purple key" sounds like level/puzzle design. Instead the villain should have a reason to have a lair and having a purple key lying around that the PCs get to find.

nitsua60

19:37

@GreySage Fronts. Design fronts.

nwp

In computer games you have the villains wait in the boss room until the PCs kill them. In DnD they ~~don't~~ shouldn't.

Yuuki

To be fair, the reason why the Lich King is waiting in his boss room is because he's waiting for you to get stronger so that he can kill you and then resurrect you as his minions.

nwp

Does the Lich King actually get to resurrect the players if he wins?

Yuuki

To be fair, it's a video game so he doesn't get to win.

So there's that unfortunate-ness(?) but he does have a reason for sitting in his boss room.

GreySage

@nwp No, you just reset and try again. So, in a way YES, but you as a player never get to experience that, since you go back to before it happened

@nitsua60 I'm finding that page VERY hard to digest, but basically a front is just a choice of 2-3 problems the PCs could go and fix?

BESW

19:42

GMs @StrangeLikeThat and @BlytheKala93 are running a #BuffyTheVampireSlayer #FATE game tonight at 8 pm PT at… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/889546892492902400

Tweeted by SavingThrowShow on July 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM

GreySage

@nitsua60 It doesn't help it is using a bunch of jargon I am unfamiliar with, but I feel like it really should explain WHAT a front is and WHY I should use it before telling me all about HOW I should make it.

BanjoFox

lol

godskook

That wasn't what I prepared, though. I prepared:

Hector Valois, leader of the Dragon Nursery, seeks to conquer his neighbors in a bid to give his growing dragons dominions of their own, underneath his rule. He's a warlord used to ruling *dragons*, and thus, is a tough, hard man to negotiate with, highly charismatic, and exceedingly ruthless.

Everything that happened after the PCs -touched- that event was completely and utterly unprepared-for, beyond what I "knew" was happening because the PCs said "we're going to go do X".

@nitsua60 That seems to be a LOT how I operate.

Shouldn't surprise me, I've been told in this chat that I'm naturally Dungeon-world-esque.

Yuuki

@godskook Through fronts?

TIL @godskook is part of the mafia.

godskook

@Yuuki Not ~exactly~, but how I build Villains and such, and then stuff them into the setting in various places, is kinda like a DW-front.

Papayaman1000

19:56

I wonder how the party'll do against 6 Specters at a time.

GreySage

@godskook So you play sandbox games

godskook

Almost?

On that side, yes, but since my PCs get missions from their guild, as a matter of course, its not really sandboxy

GreySage

@godskook Would you be opposed to your PCs deciding, screw this adventurer stuff, we're starting a turnip farm?

Yuuki

@GreySage That's where my untold hours of playing Harvest Moon would come in handy.

Also, turnip farming does not preclude fighting monsters.

That's what Rune Factory is for.

Zachiel

@GreySage Basically, that's going againt the premise of a D&D game

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