TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

01:27

@Zachiel what happened?

Miniman

01:42

@Shalvenay He killed Kalameet!

Shalvenay

oh. :P thought it was one of his chars, not a boss or smth

Miniman

Nah, it's an optional boss from the Dark Souls DLC. Really tough fight, especially the first time.

Although I guess "he killed Kalameet" wasn't really true. I should've said "him and his awesome bro Gough killed Kalameet".

@Zachiel Unless you did it without your awesome bro Gough, in which case, mad props to you.

Miniman

05:25

A new and somewhat advanced form of spam has appeared!

Magician

Dire Spam

3

BESW

> What? SPAM is evolving!

trogdor

@BESW oh you :p

Miniman

05:50

Also, wow, things are quiet around here atm.

BESW

Blind Guardian - And Then There Was Silence (Original Version)

►

Ben

06:02

@Zachiel well done. Still haven't beaten him in all these years

Miniman

@Ben You really should go back and polish off the DLC. From what you've said, you shouldn't have any difficulty with it.

Ben

I mean, I've played through the DLC. I fought Kala meet, and I got to Man's, I had one go then never went back.

Played it multiple times to that point too

Miniman

That's what I mean - you're ready, I promise. Manus and Kalameet are fated to die by your hand, and you've left destiny waiting long enough.

Ben

And I know all the lore about all the games as well.

@Miniman Haha

I'd need a proper tank build for it again.

Miniman

If nothing else, by not killing Manus and halting the spread of the Abyss, you've created a paradox, since the world of Dark Souls would have been completely different to what you experienced.

@Ben The first one really doesn't take that long once you know what you're doing :)

Ben

06:18

@Miniman #gamebreaking

Miniman

Anyway, I shouldn't be pressuring you. Just saying, if the gap in your completion of the series bothers you as much as it would me, you shouldn't have any problems filling it in.

trogdor

06:40

@Miniman yeah I noticed that too

kviiri

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/104076/… ain't this the question. Really, I would love to see an answer to it, but interpreted literally it would probably be the size of a hundred normal answers.

Or a thousand.

daze413

08:20

@Miniman [shudders] Did someone check the link? I'm scared to...

Miniman

@daze413 I googled it. One of the millions of crappy games that litter the Internet these days.

daze413

I wonder if a machine thought of that evolution, coz that'd be cool.

kviiri

I wonder if the user is just some witless internet user who has had their computer infected with something that automatically links certain phrases.

kviiri

09:16

Okay, so I get to pick three spells for level 3, and only one of them has to be a Bard spell.

Spell level 3, not character level.

So I've sort of settled on Dispel Magic as the Bard spell, and after that I've got four candidates: Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, Haste, Slow.

I definitely want one of Haste and Slow, but not both, and I'm on the edge which one to take. That leaves Counterspell and Lightning Bolt...

And I feel a bit guilty about this, but I'm leaning towards Haste mainly because Slow is a very complex spell and I don't believe my GM would play it correctly. System getting into fun's way again...

Miniman

09:31

Counterspell is amazing, especially for Bards, who get a bonus to it from Jack of All Trades.

kviiri

Hm, that's right. I'm sorta leaning against it because we also have a wizard who can cast it, and his reactions aren't as valuable as mine (with Cutting words and all).

Miniman

Personally, I don't like Lightning Bolt - the shape of its AoE is really difficult to use effectively.

Haste is great, as long as you have someone who can utilize its benefits effectively.

kviiri

Hmm, maybe before I pick I should check what damage spells are available at next level.

Miniman

Slow is...yeah. Its mechanical complexity is a pain in the butt in practice.

kviiri

@Miniman We have a paladin, who could land two divine smites a turn. That's pretty good right?

Miniman

09:36

@kviiri Yep, that definitely counts as effective XD

kviiri

Also a barbarian. I think those are the best options for tanking and DPS.

Miniman

Slow is extremely effective against enemies, since almost all them use either multiple attacks or spellcasting.

kviiri

Yeah.

I sort of don't want both haste and slow, I'd just be torn on which one to use...

And personally, I think buffs are more fun than debuffs, usually. People like being buffed.

Miniman

Also, you're not relying on a failed save for the spell to do anything.

kviiri

Yep! That's always a plus in my books. Gotta appreciate the reliability.

Oh, there's also the option that I retrain one of my lower level spells to get an extra level 3 one. Or lower level too.

I currently have the following:

doppelgreener

09:42

@Zachiel looks like kalameet...

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)>⌐■-■

met his kalamatch

(⌐■ ͜ʖ ■)

kviiri

>Cantrips: Friends, Minor Illusion and Vicious Mockery
>L1: Bane, Cure Wounds, Heroism, Sleep, Thunderwave
>L2: Blindness/Deafness, Shatter
>L3: Plant Growth

Miniman

@doppelgreener I think you mean kalamet his kalamatch?

kviiri

I haven't been using Sleep at all, I think it could be retrained to a more useful L1 spell like Healing Word. Sadly, I can't retrain it to one of my desired L3 picks because I get those from the College of Lore feature and they're not Bard spells.

Miniman

@kviiri There's certainly some of those I'd be happy to ditch, personally.

kviiri

Friends and Minor Illusion are mostly for RP jackassery, everything else is more or less intended for combat use.

doppelgreener

09:48

@Miniman ugh, that would've been so much better

nice one

Miniman

@doppelgreener XD

@kviiri At level 5, Sleep has almost certainly been completely outscaled.

BESW

> Friends. When you are compelled (or self-compel) to jeopardize a friendship for a silly reason, you get an additional fate point at the end of each scene it continues to matter until the issue is resolved or forgotten.

kviiri

@Miniman Yeah, I figured as much :) it also has the added problem, similar to Slow, of being a somewhat unconventional spell in its effects and probably requiring tons of explaining and re-explaining.

Miniman

@kviiri Not so much, really - it's unconventional, but pretty straightforward, whereas Slow is just... really complicated.

doppelgreener

@BESW Lars should be informed of this stunt

kviiri

09:51

@Miniman Yeah, they're worlds apart, yep.

BESW

@doppelgreener [snerk]

kviiri

I was just meditating on Bane. It's actually a remarkably well-scaling spell for a level 1. As long as one can punch through the saves, it's a flat 1/8 reduction to targets' success rates for saves and attacks.

(obeying the usual natural 20 and 1 hits/misses boundary conditions for attacks, of course)

trogdor

@BESW @doppelgreener is this,.... that Lars?

doppelgreener

@trogdor Steven Universe Lars

trogdor

ooooh

ok

kviiri

09:55

And unlike many other debuff spells, it's saved against only once. None of that "at the end of each turn" junk!

trogdor

I thought maybe BESW had mentioned a Lars he knew and you had riffed on him

BESW

@doppelgreener Ironically, we also know a real Lars who probably uses that stunt.

doppelgreener

oh no xD

trogdor

I had forgotten that there was a Lars like that in SU

BESW

Although, in a very different way than Lars Barriga does.

kviiri

09:56

Also, since the debuff applies for each attack roll, its impact grows in pace as monsters start to push multiattacks.

trogdor

@BESW this is,..... why I asked, but I regret bringing it up now

doppelgreener

@kviiri create a little cheat sheet to hand your GM?

kviiri

@doppelgreener I think it might work, but honestly, there still might be too much to keep track of. I fear it'd SLOW the game :P

doppelgreener

that's fair enough

kviiri

I wish it wasn't the case, of course, but these are the cards we've been dealt. And I guess I'm perfectly happy picking haste in its stead.

doppelgreener

09:57

> The Time Warp. You can take two actions anytime you'd take one, as long as one of them is being used to dance.

(Does this stunt actually do next to nothing? Commence debate!)

kviiri

If you're working a secret mission at a gala or a costume party, you can get a lot done while still maintaining the ruse of just dancing with the rest of the crowd.

doppelgreener

Nice. :D

trogdor

@doppelgreener nice, bonus points because I just saw this two weeks ago XD

BESW

@doppelgreener Rockalypse.

doppelgreener

@trogdor oh yeah!! :D maybe that's why it was fresh on my mind

kviiri

10:01

@Miniman Hm, I'd sort of want to take some damage spell in addition to Haste and Dispel Magic. But I don't want to take Fireball since it's another caster's "trademark" in our party.

trogdor

@doppelgreener hehehehe

BESW

@doppelgreener Then last week we watched Cleopatra Jones and They Live.

doppelgreener

@BESW that's a fabulous combination

kviiri

Of course 4d8 Shatter (upcast to L3) is not hugely worse than 8d6 fireball or lightning bolt.

BESW

> Chew bubblegum. At the beginning of each scene, roll Resources against a difficulty of +3. If you succeed, gain the aspect Bubblegum with one free invoke (two if you succeed with style). If you fail, gain the aspect Kick ass with one free invoke instead.

Miniman

10:06

@kviiri I wish that were true :(

BESW

Alternately:

kviiri

@Miniman Well, heh, the difference IS quite significant now that I actually calculated it. I guess I mentally somehow made it to be 6d6 for roughly equal expected value.

BESW

> Chew bubblegum. You begin each session with the aspect Bubblegum, with one free invoke. When this aspect has no free invokes, it transforms into Kick ass with one free invoke.

Miniman

@kviiri It's also much less consistent, and targets a save that monsters are almost all strong on.

kviiri

@Miniman Yeah.

Especially the ones I'd like to hurt with massive damage.

Miniman

10:09

Also, the range...

kviiri

Doesn't really kick in in most of our combats, I've found. But it's a fair point in more general settings.

nwp

In 5e do saving throws count as skills when it comes to things like rogue's expertise?

kviiri

I'll be AFK on lunch for a moment, thanks for the input @Miniman! I hope we can continue about this later :)

BESW

> Clothes make the ~~man~~ superspy. Whenever you have a chance to change your outfit, you begin the next scene with an Eye-grabbing ensemble with two free invokes. This aspect can, of course, be compelled by your enemies.

kviiri

@nwp Nope

nwp

10:11

@kviiri cool thanks

Miniman

@kviiri I look forward to it! I was picking spells for my level 3 Bard just earlier, so it's near and dear.

kviiri

@nwp Bard's "Jack of all trades" is funny, because it allows one to add half their proficiency modifier to all ability checks that don't include proficiency yet, and that includes rolls one can't be proficient with :)

nwp

> Unwavering. This creature has advantage and disadvantage on all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws.

Probably not cool as it doesn't allow any play/counterplay meta-game.

Miniman

@nwp It's a really cool idea, though. Features that give both advantage and disadvantage could definitely be a thing, just not as a permanent effect.

nwp

10:26

It is sort of like the Darkness spell, just more focused.

kviiri

10:43

I think the Darkness effect in practice is quite lousy. I've seen parties cast it and then realize "wait, THAT's what it does?"

@Miniman yeah, so... do you think retraining Sleep --> Healing Word is a sound idea?

Miniman

@kviiri Definitely - I'd even consider ditching Cure Wounds once Healing Word is on your list.

kviiri

@Miniman Dunno, I use Cure Wounds a lot for healing between encounters when there's no time for short rest, or Hit Dice haven't done their thing.

Miniman

@kviiri Are you a programmer, by any chance?

Healing is very much a "0, 1, or n" thing, but both Cure Wounds and Healing Word very quickly fail to scale and effectively become 1, not n.

kviiri

@Miniman Yes, how come?

Ah, I should've read your next message.

Miniman

:)

kviiri

10:50

I'm a sequential programmer, not a parallel one. Messages on the stack get processed one at the time.

4

Miniman

@kviiri Nice - I too am not a parallel programmer. I mean, I passed my unit on Concurrent and Distributed Computing, but I can't say I learned anything.

kviiri

@Miniman I learned lots. Never got to use any of that in practice yet.

My boss disagreed with the idea of building a cluster just for me to play in ;)

Miniman

@kviiri I guess I learned that I'm not smart enough for parallel computing?

kviiri

@Miniman It doesn't take smart, it takes paranoid :)

Anyway, on Cure Wounds... so you mean, basically, that spending spell slots on healing is a waste, even out of combat?

We had a very unconventional course on distributed systems, btw. No exam. Only one essay a week, lots of discussions in a workshop-like environment, and several exercises.

Most of the exercises were harder to code than to think. I haven't done much networking stuff ever, so getting to the point where I can fluidly use TCP over Python took a while.

Miniman

@kviiri Not exactly - I mean that generally, once you're a higher level, the difference between healing Xd4 and Xd8 won't let you survive an extra hit, anyway.

kviiri

10:58

@Miniman Hm, that might well be the case.

Any suggestions on what to retrain CW to in the event I decide to do it?

Miniman

@kviiri That's why a lot of people try to only heal characters who go down to 0 hp.

(And often use Goodberries for that)

kviiri

@Miniman I do the same, usually. In combat, I only heal if I'm fairly sure it prevents a character from going KO or when the target is already knocked out.

Miniman

@kviiri [nods approvingly]

kviiri

I don't really have an issue with the DnD damage system otherwise but I think that this is an unintended side-effect that might need addressing.

Miniman

@kviiri Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Knock, Silence, Hypnotic Pattern...

There are a lot of cool spells, and what's useful for you depends on your party.

Hypnotic Pattern would probably be my #1 pick, though - it's one of the best crowd control spells in the game.

kviiri

11:03

It does look quite promising.

I dislike how all the cool spells are concentration spells :<

Miniman

Me too. The concentration mechanic has done a lot for the balance of the game, but it's made spellcasting a lot less fun.

kviiri

I would probably prefer limiting the number of [de]buffs per target over limiting them per caster.

It's especially annoying for a Bard because I'd like to do this support mage thingy, but can't, really.

Miniman

Yeah.

kviiri

That's also why I want those damage spells :)

Wow, I didn't realize the Swift Quiver "exploit". That's nice! Too bad I'm a Lore Bard.

Miniman

@kviiri That's why my Bard is an expert archer, and is working towards making 4 attacks per rou-never mind, you read that bit.

kviiri

11:09

I wonder how to get good power levels outta mine...

Miniman

@kviiri Depends how you define "good" - anyone with full spellcasting is at least reasonably powerful.

kviiri

Well... Bards don't exactly have it "full", in my opinion. Sure, they go to level 9, but their damage spell selection is awful.

Miniman

Damage isn't everything, but I know what you mean. Their list is definitely not the best.

On the other hand, that's what Magical Secrets is for, right?

kviiri

Damage isn't everything, but with concentration limiting the amount of buffs active to one, it is very significant.

At least some proper debuffs like Blindness are concentration-free!

@Miniman It doesn't trigger often enough, though. I'm level 6 now, and if I don't pick an attack spell now, I won't get one until level 10. That means I'll still be firing Thunderwave and Shatter at level 9 :P

Miniman

@kviiri I hate to say it, but if I was going to pick up a damage spell, it would definitely be fireball. It's just so much more powerful than any of the others.

kviiri

11:22

@Miniman I guess I'll have to pick that for damage, then. So my ultimate line-up for level 3 spells would be Dispel Magic, Haste and Fireball.

(the new picks, I mean)

This is DnD 5e for you! We all agreed to not optimize, but no one wants to play an underpowered character either, so everyone optimizes. x)

I sort of picked the Bard because I wanted to try out something different. I'm a bit disappointed by the state of support caster mechanics... and utility spells bother me to no end too.

So essentially I'm a combat wizard with a suckier spell list and some extra HP. And rapier proficiency and skillmonkeying :(

kviiri

12:21

What other magical creatures of DnD are associated with greed than dragons?

Efreet or Dao maybe?

I'm composing a set of bosses for my players: the idea is they'll have to defeat a bunch of leaders from a nascent empire corrupted by Asmodeus. As such, I'd like each boss to employ a different flavor of tyranny in their fief. I want one whose tyranny is essentially extreme plutocratic oligarchy, but I feel a dragon won't work as well there.

For reference, I have planned to have a dragon whose thing is collecting tribute and responding with indiscriminate violence when she finds it meager, a devil who poses as the totally-not-pope to turn the religious into paranoid fanatics, a giant whose fief is a completely mobilized military state, and an undetermined magical creature who governs by assassination and "secret police".

Miniman

12:43

@kviiri If you have Volo's, the Morkoth is essentially greed personified.

kviiri

@Miniman Looking that up... let's see.

NautArch

@kviiri My bard went with Magic fighter with 3rd level gotos dispel magic, fireball and counterspell. But Hypnotic Pattern is my always go-to if I think they're charmable.

kviiri

@Miniman Thanks, I looked it up. It sure is greedy, but I think a Dao is easier to picture as the "ruler" of a evil "corporate dystopia" of the fantasy middle ages :)

Miniman

@kviiri Yeah, I wrote that before I saw what you wanted it for. Not really suitable.

kviiri

@Miniman I would be willing to wrangle with the lore to force it to be suitable, I just prefer an already suitable one if it exists :)

NautArch

13:00

@kviiri would you consider making a high-level Warlock of Asmodeus as one of them? or doy ou want monster monsters?

kviiri

@NautArch Already exists, he is the big bad of the campaign :) great minds think alike and so on

BanjoFox

fhqwhgads

kviiri

There used to be a great empire created and ruled by a seemingly immortal wizard-emperor Magnus, who, upon his wife's death, went in to exile. The empire broke back into independent city states and petty kingdoms, with no one even attempting to claim the imperial legacy because no one has anything like Magnus's magical power.

The warlock's talking to a single, vulnerable king in hopes of instilling imperial ambitions in his soul. And he does make it, and then the heroes have an evil empire to stop.

@NautArch But continuing on this, yeah, I'd prefer monster monsters. Humanoid is ok, but I think it gives them more character if they're all clearly beyond the people they're reigning over. The "totally-not-pope" is the exception in that he at least looks human, but that maybe counts as foreshadowing that he's not actually who he claims to be!

Miniman

@kviiri Wait, so are you looking for a replacement monster for your greed tyrant position currently occupied by a dragon, or are you looking for a secret police monster?

kviiri

@Miniman The open positions are the secret police guy and the oligarchy one (which I'm pretty sure will be the Dao). I already have a dragon as a sort of non-ruler who simply expects tribute and gets mad when it doesn't get it, letting the people beneath do the administrative stuff, and then the not-pope.

Miniman

13:11

@kviiri Ah, right. Can I suggest an aboleth for your secret police monster?

eimyr

hi

NautArch

@kviiri what books do you have access to?

kviiri

Oh, and the army one. Giant-led obviously not-Nazi-Sparta.

@NautArch PHB, DMG, Monster Manual, Volo and if I really need it, SCAG.

@Miniman Sure :) let's see

NautArch

@Miniman I was thinking it needed something with telepathic/mind powers. A mindlfayer would be pretty sweet in that role.

godskook

Are Illithids and Elder Brains in 5e?

kviiri

13:12

@godskook Yep

NautArch

@kviiri cool...so Tome of beasts.

Miniman

@NautArch I was thinking about an illithid too, but it doesn't have the wow factor.

@godskook Elder Brains are in Volo's.

NautArch

@Miniman Illithids don't have a wow factor? You are one jaded dude, miniman :)

kviiri

There's actually an issue with Illithids. They use mind control, and I've already made it a plot point that sins committed under mind control do not count. (It's also canonically true) Therefore the Asmodian empire would absolutely loathe mind flayers.

Miniman

@NautArch I mean, a single illithid just isn't that impressive. @godskook 's suggestion of an Elder Brain is awesome, though, especially cos that gets you illithid and intellect devourer secret police.

@kviiri Er, never mind I guess.

That sort of cuts out aboleths, too.

kviiri

13:15

Whereas the other rulers want to encourage sins, like greed, jealousy, wrath or disloyalty against one's neighbor, so they're obviously welcome rulers :P

NautArch

@Miniman every Army needs a Navy!

Miniman

Krakens are supposed to be master manipulators who've infiltrated all corners of society with secret cultist agents, so that could work.

@NautArch I meant cos of the mind control thing.

Rakshasa are master manipulators, but you've already used a devil.

NautArch

@Miniman ooh, yeah!and that probing telepathy is pretty perfect for secret police.

godskook

@kviiri its the usual nature of ill-deeds that there's both a perpetrator and a victim. Mind Flayers don't have to mind-control EVERYONE, just the victims. They'd rule the rest ala "willing" servitude, akin to the Movie Equilibrium.

It toes the party line or it gets the Dominate again

trogdor

@Miniman wait what?

are these the same Krakens?

Miniman

13:20

@trogdor [shrug] I read the lore, I don't write it :P

trogdor

I know that it just,..... what?

why can't they just be big monsters you have to fight in a sailing campaign

kviiri

@godskook That seems a bit unusual for Mind Flayers, though? Aren't they usually quite hell-bent on dominating everything and eating its brain?

I'm not a lore expert on them and I don't have my books handy, but they just don't seem like the creatures who would appreciate the love of Asmo.

godskook

@kviiri There's not enough power-points in the WORLD for what they're hell-bent on doing. They need to build empires around their squishy selves to conserve their PP for important jobs.

NautArch

@kviiri Aboleths or Mind Flayers? Aboleths definitely wouldn't - they hate the gods. BUt if they're working from within to take them down from within...

godskook

And in fact, by 3.5 lore, they imperialists quite explicitly.

kviiri

13:25

@NautArch Mind Flayers.

BanjoFox

@NautArch -- ...because Aliens ;D

NautArch

@kviiri We know not the minds of Mind Flayers.

kviiri

@godskook Sure they are, but are they co-operative imperialists who can accept being subservient to some wacko with a shiny thing on its head and a dark warlock by its side?

godskook

@kviiri just look at Gith lore. Gith are a breed of super-soldier slaves that the Illithids breed for untold eras before losing control of them entirely.

@kviiri I mean...that might be a sticking point, but how much loyalty are you really looking for here?

kviiri

@godskook Enough so all sides can at least maintain a pretense of it working :P

godskook

13:29

@kviiri Mind Flayers can do that much :P

kviiri

@godskook I dunno, while I think they definitely could, I can't imagine why they'd do it and whether Asmo would be really pleased with that.

trogdor

I do generally get the impression Mind Flayers can pretend an alliance is working as long as the other side can do so too

kviiri

They feel somewhat out of the entire "good vs evil" game, in being sort of extra-terrestial threats.

But the idea's not bad, now that I think of it.

godskook

@kviiri If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but at this point, I think its just up to you. I think it'd work, but there's a dozen details of your game I don't know.

(Exactly a dozen, I counted!)

kviiri

"Yes", the tentacled one spoke to the warlock's mind, extending his mucus-coated hand to grab that of the warlock, who made no effort to conceal his disgust. "You get to keep their souls, but we... we keep the minds."

3

@godskook Oh, I forgot to mention, the sea is made of molten chocolate in my game.

godskook

13:33

@kviiri 13. 13 details I don't know.

NautArch

@godskook bakers dozen!

godskook

@NautArch And now I want to convert that into a badass villain monoloque.

kviiri

@godskook Actually now you do know that one!

nwp

Can you actually Counterspell your own spell? That would be casting 2 spells in a turn. But then again reaction doesn't count. Worth asking a question?

NautArch

@nwp I think that's been covered (reaction isn't the same as the spells/turn)...checking...

godskook

13:40

@kviiri Yes, but with that revelation, its now obvious to me that there's two additional things about your game I don't know.

NautArch

@nwp and it's the same functionally as casting a spell, having someone counter it, and then you countering theirs

kviiri

@godskook I know, where does the chocolate come from? And is it molten through heat or magic?

Emperor Magnus, in his great wisdom, left behind such a magical world.

@godskook Seriously, now that I think more about the mind flayers, it's actually a pretty good fit.

NautArch

@nwp counterspellin'

godskook

@kviiri Too bad, too slow, now you can't use them.

kviiri

@godskook Oh well, my original idea was to use a vampire. :)

nwp

13:43

@godskook It was mind flayers all along! is always a valid option.

nitsua60

@kviiri Also going buff ally rather than debuff enemy tends to speed up combat; whether that's desirable is up to you. Also, buffs tend to get more use per casting: allies die less frequently than enemies. At least, in ~~all~~ most of my games =D

(Forgot about my foray into GOG. Definitely burned allies faster than enemies!)

kviiri

@nitsua60 Good points. And allies never save against buffs, which is still my favorite part :)

godskook

@kviiri Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just pretend I do.

@nitsua60 But DMs don't go cry in the corner because you cast a buff spell, but they do when you cast Entangle.

kviiri

@godskook Rule 1) To each rule, there is an exception. Exception: Rule 1 doesn't have any exceptions.

godskook

@kviiri Rule 2) Every rule exists. Exception: Rule 1 doesn't.

nwp

13:48

@NautArch What is the important difference between fireball and expeditious retreat there? The concentration or the casting time?

B. S. Morganstein

Morning friends!

godskook

@B.S.Morganstein I'm not your friend, buddy!

Erik

@nwp the important difference between fireball and expeditious retreat is in how many pieces you will be travelling the distance

B. S. Morganstein

@godskook lol so I guess we're doing that everyday then

(and I'm not your buddy, guy)

Miniman

@nwp The casting time - bonus action spells have a special rule.

nitsua60

13:50

@godskook The closest I've come to crying in a corner when GMing was when a PC druid cast spike growth in the path of a half-dozen galloping horses in trace.

godskook

@nitsua60 "in trace"?

nitsua60

(OTOH, they've got blight on their spell list, so I guess these aren't your mother's druids.)

@godskook All harnessed up to carriage/wagon.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Oh, spike growth. Truly the most annoying of spells to deal with as a GM.

NautArch

@nwp I...don't know. I can't see any reason why you couldn't do it with Expeditious Retreat. not sure why that's in an answer.

nitsua60

Trace (tack)

In transport, a trace is one of two, or more, straps, ropes or chains by which a carriage or wagon, or the like, is drawn by a harness horse or other draft animal. The once popular idiom: "kick over the traces" is derived from a frisky or frightened animal kicking one or both feet outside a trace. Unable to understand the entanglement, the animal may become wildly confused and out of control, possibly even breaking away. Hence, to "kick over the traces", when referring to a person, means to become wild and uncontrollable, or to abandon constraint. == See also == Horse harness Horse tack...

NautArch

13:51

@Miniman our DM tried to use SPike Growth against us..twice. I dispelled it...twice.

Miniman

@NautArch Expeditious Retreat has a casting time of bonus action, and bonus action spells don't allow you to cast another spell in the same turn, unless it's a regular action cantrip.

kviiri

@godskook Rule 3) No rule is to have quirky meta-jokes as exceptions. Exception: Except all of them.

NautArch

@Miniman Hmm. I took that Sage Advice to clarify the rules of spellcasting on a single turn AND that you can still use your reaction (it does not follow the same spellcasting rules.)

Miniman

@NautArch Oh, it's not very good for GMs to use against players. It's not even really powerful for players to use against GMs. It's just incredibly annoying to deal with as a GM. Is it metagaming if the monsters don't kill themselves running through the spikes? On the other hand, most monsters don't have good ranged options, so not running through the spikes isn't really a good idea either. Is jumping allowed?

NautArch

@Miniman yes...but that's still movement so same penalty?

nitsua60

13:55

@Miniman Bet you wish you ruled their jump continues to their next turn... (he he he)

NautArch

@Miniman Otherwise the action of fireball and reaction of counterspell would fall under the same turn spellcasting limitation (neither are cantrips)

Miniman

@NautArch There's no rule about same turn spellcasting, except the one that doesn't allow other spells on the same turn as a bonus action.

nitsua60

@NautArch Are you talking about counterspelling one's own fireball?

NautArch

@Miniman Hmmm. I guess i'm reading that Sage Advice as an exception to the rule, but you're seeing it as in conjunction because the rule isn't being broken?

@nitsua60 Discussing if you cast a bonus action spell and it gets counterspelled. Can you counterspell that?

nitsua60

Is counterspell a 1-action cantrip? Nope. Then I can't cast it on the same turn as I cast the (now-counterspelled) bonus action spell.

godskook

13:59

@NautArch For sanity's sake, I suggest against reactions to reactions. Those RAPIDLY get out of hand, regardless of system. Source: MtG

nitsua60

^^. OTOH, what's wrong with a party with multiple counterspell-casters getting into a chain reaction? It blows through slots right-fast =D

NautArch

@nitsua60 well, i'll be. I never really looked at it that way.

thanks!

nitsua60

np =)

NautArch

@nitsua60 I mean, not sure i'd play it like that at my table - but I get it now :) I'm not sure I see the difference between able to counter on your turn vs another turn and having cast a bonus action spell already.

nitsua60

@NautArch On that last part--are you imagining having cast a bonus action spell on someone else's turn?

Miniman

14:11

@NautArch The difference is, bonus action spells have this weirdly specific rule.

nitsua60

Because in that case you also counterspell its counterspell. (For two reasons, now.)

NautArch

@nitsua60 no, just that I'm not sure I see why you can't cast the reaction (other than the weirdly specific rule)

Miniman

Honestly, I'm not sure why they didn't just say "you can only cast 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn".

nitsua60

@NautArch Because of the rule. I interpret it as strain on the weave-caster dynamic, personally.

Miniman

I mean, no, I totally believe that they were thinking about Action Surge-ing spellcasters when they wrote that. Totally.

nitsua60

14:12

@Miniman Do quickened sorcerors get out of hand, then?

Miniman

@nitsua60 How?

nwp

@Miniman Maybe because that would make counterspell pretty bad.

Miniman

@nwp What, if you couldn't counterspell the counterspell to your spell? That really doesn't come up that often.

NautArch

@nitsua60 If you look at the 6 second round - I don't really understand why you can't cast a reaction on your turnw hen you've cast a bonus action spell but you can cast it later in the same round (which is the same time period)

nitsua60

@Miniman Quicken a fireball to bonus-time, then cast another (regular) fireball?

Miniman

14:14

@nitsua60 How does "you can only cast 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn" allow that?

nwp

@Miniman You could only counterspell if you didn't cast a spell. So only when you cast a cantrip. And that is usually when you are already out of spell slots. So in a lot of situations it would be very obvious if a caster can cast counterspell.

nitsua60

@Miniman Because it's Monday morning and I'm not really fully awake yet? =D

Miniman

@nwp Per turn, not per round. You can counterspell on every other spellcaster's turn if you've got the slots for it.

@nitsua60 XD

nwp

@Miniman Ah. That would make a much better rule I think.

nitsua60

> You can only cast 1 leveled spell per turn.

So, are there any functional difference between that ^^ proposal and the existing rule?

Miniman

14:18

> You can only cast 1 devilled spell per turn.

@nitsua60 Well, that prevents Action Surge allowing 2 action spells in one turn and casting an action spell and a reaction spell in one turn.

nitsua60

Summon devil. Command devil. Devil: "ah, ah, ah... only one devilled spell per turn."

Miniman

@nitsua60 Summon devilled eggs. Summon devilled sausages.

Anyway, y'all have kept me up way past my bedtime. And it's totally your fault and not mine. See you, everybody!

nitsua60

Night!

nwp

While we are at the topic of bad habits: I wondered if DnD encourages players to be murder hobos. According to the PHB (I think) they are supposed to kill a minimum of 6 creatures per day. That's an awful lot of killing to be sustained by the world.

kviiri

@nwp I think DnD encourages all sorts of bad habits in-character and otherwise :)

NautArch

14:28

@nwp defeat doesn't equal kill? Encounters doesn't equal battles? But yes.

BanjoFox

@nwp -- That depends on the reproduction rate of the creatures

godskook

Can someone pull up wealth-by-level for a level 4 character? I'm away from book atm.

Erik

I think DnD encourages it mostly because if you don't murder stuff every day, you're wasting the majority of your cool abilities

nwp

@NautArch Assuming you do it for balance reasons encounters that don't burn spell slots don't count. I suppose if the encounter was resolved with some charm effect it might count, otherwise it would imbalance the game equally much.

But 6 combat encounters per day seems awfully much.

NautArch

@godskook startng wealth is normal starting equipment for a 4th level character.

Erik

14:32

I'm sure there's some kind of fancy name for the idea that you will use whatever options are written on a sheet to solve your problems

BanjoFox

MinMax?

godskook

@NautArch Sorry, 3.5. You're probably answering for 5e, cause that's NOT true for 3.5

Erik

I can't look it up right now, but I'm pretty sure in 3.5 at 4th level it was something like 5100gp

NautArch

@godskook yes, yes i am.

Erik

@BanjoFox min-max is more like trying to maximize the power of what you can write on your sheet

I mean more that if your skill are "violence", "murder" and "bloodshed", those will be what you use to solve problems, just because that's what you have and what you're good at.

BanjoFox

14:35

hrm... good point

kviiri

I think DnD is geared heavily for violent solutions, because they're the ones players know will work.

Erik

Yes, and the ones characters are good at. And violent solution touch on all the game's mechanics, whereas other solutions only use a few of them.

kviiri

If there was a proper framework for social interactions, building a character for that would be more viable.

@Erik That's true, too. Especially in 4e, but true to some extent in all editions of DnD from 3e on. I think the earlier ones had more rules structuring non-combat life.

Erik

Exactly. Games where equal weight is given to different things, see much more of them :)

kviiri

It's a matter of promises. The PHB promises if I hit a foe with a fireball, I deal 8d6 damage at their crying face. A decent DM will also narrate vividly the smell of their eyebrows burning. But the PHB promises me absolutely nothing I can do with my social skills. It only suggests things for my GM.

Erik

14:47

That, too.

godskook

@kviiri Which system? Cause....I'd say that the exact opposite was the problem with 3.5's social system.

nwp

Maybe it makes sense to go full 6-8 medium encounters per day that the party definitely cannot beat, requiring them to find at least some non-combat solutions.

godskook

The skills promised too MUCH

Erik

But even where it does promise something, it doesn't work because the promises just aren't enough fun

godskook

Hence the term "diplomancer"

kviiri

14:48

@godskook DnD. 4e and 5e mostly, because I only know bits and pieces of the earlier editions.

@godskook Please enlighten me, this sounds interesting!

Erik

Even if you can roll a diplomacy check and make someone your best friend (see godskook's point :P) then it's more fun to fight them because that's just much more mechanically satisfying

kviiri

Technically, the GM could just say "well you know what? Screw your fireball. It's raining here, and the spell doesn't work in rain". At that point I could point out that there's no mention of rain having any effect on the spell, and they could persist. And that's sort of their right as a GM - yet I haven't still seen any GM take away things like spells or weapon damage that are explicitly given to the player in the PHB. It's like a faux pas, even if it's technically allowed.

godskook

@kviiri, the social system in 3.5 promised you everything you'd ever want to achieve in a social encounter, as a player. You could improve people's moods with flat DCs.

THe problem was, the system was too flat.

kviiri

@godskook Like, indefinitely? :o

godskook

There was no middle-ground between "success" and "failure"

kviiri

14:49

From raging angry to ecstatic?

godskook

@kviiri Fanatic had a duration listed, nothing else did.

DC 50 to make a worst-case enemy helpful

And helpful was a better result than friendly.

kviiri

Apocalypse World has this move which I think is pretty cool:

Seduce /Manipulate: When you try to seduce, manipulate, bluff, fast-talk, or lie to someone, tell
them what you want them to do, give them a reason, and roll+hot. For NPCs: on a
10+, they’ll go along with you, unless or until some fact or action betrays the reason
you gave them. On a 7–9, they’ll go along with you, but they need some concrete
assurance, corroboration, or evidence first. On a miss, for either NPCs or PCs, be prepared for the worst.

Where's muh highlights. ;_;

Well, I guess it works fine without, too.

nitsua60

@Erik "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail?" --> "To a man with a fireball, everything looks like tinder."

nwp

Who would use a fireball on tinder? That's not how you impress someone.

kviiri

If you target a PC, you get to choose either a carrot (bonus exp) or a stick (highlight erased, meaning less exp for the session) to make them do what you want.

Erik

14:54

Yeah, that's one half of it @nitsua60. And the other half is "We're going to make dinner. The options are pizza with any of these 25 toppings, or boiled potatoes."

@kviiri the Apocalypse World system indeed works WAY better for making people not always solve things with violence, even if it is a system set in on a very violent place

godskook

Honestly, I think part of the murder-hobo tendency is the tendency to let PCs *be* murder-hobos by plot.

When I hear other people tell me about their games, the PCs always seem to be utterly unaffiliated with anybody in the world. And they kill people.

PCs in my current campaign don't seem to quite so much suffer from murder-hobo-ism, and I have to wonder if that's related to the fact that they're merely "soldiers" serving their country under orders.

kviiri

@Erik Exactly. It's the social moves DnD is lacking.

nitsua60

@godskook This answer might interest you.

Erik

I've run plenty of games where "being a murder-hobo" is a bad way to solve the problem, but people will still try to use it, just because that's what they want to see done. Because all the cool stuff happens when you kill people.

I've got the same thing when I play D&D by the way. I don't really prefer "violence fixes all" games, but if I spend time building a D&D character and I have 12 different ways of beheading a Goblin and none to talk with it, I'm still going to feel disappointed if I didn't try all of them by the end of the session

Transcript for