TRPG General Chat

Adeptus

00:05

Gosh, this room gets chatty when I'm not around (I'm assuming I shouldn't take that personally...)

BESW

00:22

@Shalvenay In the 90s, we'd regularly get power outages caused by snakes.

Sometimes it'd take down the whole island grid.

Shalvenay

@BESW heheh. gotta love CyberSquirrel1

BESW

It got the point that people had conspiracy theories about how there was just one big dead snake the power folks hauled out to blame for everything.

Chemus

@Adeptus Probably maybe not.

Papayaman1000

00:37

\*gasp\* I get a brief respite from making tacos for the family to give you this gem from my SO:
[Me, sharpening a knife]
[SO, concerned]
"Should you be making such big sweeping motions with that? It seems dangerous."
"Relax, [our son] is familiar with blood circles, he's keeping his distance"
"No, I'm worried about you hurting yourself"
"Sharpening knives is one of the few honest pleasures I get out of life, just--"
"More than...?"
"That is also nice."
"Well, now I know how to punish you ithout punishing myself..."

daze413

@BESW barbarian spotted

@Papayaman1000 the colonypunk game is starting over in the back room

BESW

01:01

A generic update about Generic Games work in progress: http://www.genericgames.co.nz/update/2017/06/09/mid-winter-update.html

Tweeted by GenericGamesNZ on June 9, 2017 at 1:00 AM

nitsua60

01:53

@WrongOnTheInternet I dunno... I live in a small town (<2Kppl) and have recently started admitting, out loud, that I occasionally play D&D. I've had over a dozen people contact me in the last week wondering if there's a group actively playing and when and can we join and.... Color me shocked, I may not be able to get to my FLGS for a while because I'm busy with rural-back-woods D&D =)

godskook

Nice

I can't even get up to my table-max

But then, #competition

nitsua60

@godskook what's the competition in your area/among your peeps?

godskook

02:09

I'm at a STEM college

I've never seen so many D&D groups

Adeptus

I'm in one group of 8 (inc. DM) and one of 7 (inc. DM). I'm aware of 2-3 other groups of friends who play separately, and 3-4 stores that run AL. And this is a small city.

nitsua60

@godskook ahh....

godskook

Its very interesting to me the difference in gamer taxonomy between these guys and the people I knew in Chicago who'd play D&D.

Leans a bit more rollplay up here.

Adeptus

Younger? Or maybe because they're generally more technical & less social (I'm guessing, because STEM college) they're more about the numbers?

BESW

02:32

Even within my own campus there were three vastly different sets of playstyles, with a fourth I knew about nearby.

It's kinda like video games: just because you've got a bunch of people together who like video games doesn't mean much in terms of coherent play goals.

Heck, in my own group recently I've had someone who plays for system mastery and someone who plays for maximum effect, but also a player who's focused on interpersonal drama, one who plays for internal development, and one who plays for laughs.

SevenSidedDie

@BESW This sounds almost exactly like my current group.

godskook

02:47

One of these days, I need to homebrew Wizard into 8 sub-classes. At least to level 6

I just gotta figure out what Enchanters are doing with their spellslots, besides Charm/Dominate

BESW

At first I thought that was "I need to homebrew Wizardry 8 classes" and I became nervouscited.

godskook

?

Shalvenay

@godskook -- where would you peg your own playstyle? your mentioning of gamer taxonomy has me curious

BESW

Which, Wizardry 8 or nervouscited?

godskook

Oh gawd, MLP? HISSS

Miniman

02:50

@godskook I mean, the feature Enchanters want is pretty obvious, right? Just let them affect things immune to mind-affecting.

godskook

@Shalvenay, hard to say? I seem to be more into both rollplay and roleplay than either apparent mono-dimensional gamer.

BESW

Hey, be nice. I didn't get my back up when you associated me with 4chan.

godskook

When did I do that?

BESW

Two days ago, you called Naut and I "eloquen/tg/entlemen."

godskook

@Shalvenay, the last PC I built was a Sorcadin. A destined-to-be Sorcerer who's father's sacrifice for his family's defense left him constantly trying to fill his father's shoes as a Paladin.

Shalvenay

02:53

@godskook I don't fit onto that monoaxial categorization to begin with, more or less -- if anything, I'm an alternate-world exploration/worldbuilding simulationist

godskook

The resultant mismatch was a Sorcadin constantly trying to play the Paladin, but constantly falling back on his sorcery to make things actually work.

Shalvenay

which system btw?

godskook

3.5

Shalvenay

eeeyup. I was about to guess as much

the 3.5e Pally needs that help haha

godskook

@BESW, you're confusing me with Papayaman1000

BESW

02:55

Yes, I am, sorry. But the point stands.

godskook

@Miniman, 1.Its for E6, so no mindblank. 2.They need something other than making their team-mates irrelevant via enemy-recruitment spells.

The point stands?
O_o
o_O

lol

BESW

Don't make knee-jerk "ew" noises when people reference something they like?

4

Miniman

@godskook I wasn't thinking about mindblank so much, more about undead.

godskook

@Shalvenay, well, if I wanted to play a good 3.5 Paladin build that was just Paladin-like classes, I'd go Ordained Champion so I'd be able to make a reasonable number of smite attacks per day.

Or Crusader.

Shalvenay

yeah, I'd be inclined to work off 'Sader but I'm not a 3.x fan save for in extremely high-magic campaigns anyhow

godskook

03:01

I love the E6-mod I'm using, so...to each their own? Even MLP

Shalvenay

I've never tried E6-type stuff in the pen&paper setting though (just a similar setup in NWN MP which happens to work fairly well there too)

godskook

@Miniman, hmmm, actually, I suppose I COULD move "controlling" undead into Enchanters.

Shalvenay

I may have to try E6 if I'm dealing with something where 5e won't suit but but I don't want to deal with a torrent of breakage either

godskook

@Shalvenay, my mod is gestalt-progression, and gives you skill poitns for each class you take. A Ninja 6//Rogue 6//Scout 6 has 24+Int skill points per level to work with.

Shalvenay

then again, the stuff on my "want to try" list is a fair bit further afield

godskook

03:03

Also, use my GREAT METAMAGIC RULE OF BALANCING

Shalvenay

(I do have a better idea for a Monsterhearts char, too)

godskook

Rule: Your maximum metamagic stacking is determined before you use alternate-cost or cost-reduction abilities. Thus, a level 6 Wizard can only maximize cantrips, Empower 1st level spells, or extend up to 2nd level spells.

Miniman

@godskook Well, the other thing enchanters are (purely theoretically supposed to be) good at is buffing.

Shalvenay

yeah, I've barely touched 3.x metamagic at all

godskook

So are Transmuters, though....

Miniman

03:06

@godskook Nah, transmuters are (actually really) good at buffing.

Papayaman1000

03:37

Beautiful unintended pun in the Dresden Files: "I died and someone made a clerical error and this is heaven."

Shalvenay

harhar

BESW

It's the Dresden Files; I'd err on the side of assuming it's intentional.

godskook

Let's see:

Combat:
Conjurers - Make things. Summoners + ?
(Life and Death) Necromancers - Debuffs, undead, healing, restoration magic
Transmuters - Altering Buffs
Evokers - Damage spells and Battlefield Control
Diviners - ?
Illusionists - ?
Abjurers - Defense magic and Dispels(reactionary spells need more love)
Enchanters - ?

Papayaman1000

@BESW Yeah, but at the same time I really do doubt it.

@godskook Illusionists are Gods. They alter reality to control the battlefield. A master Illusionist player, especially upon picking up Illusory Reality, will keep most foes at bay without ever firing off a single firebolt.

godskook

Idk, clerical is a common pun.

Hmm....backporting that from 5e might be a good idea.

Papayaman1000

03:47

Perhaps. Certain parties consider it the quintessential Wizard ability, almost demanding you to take Illusionist simply because you can now make everyone adamantium everything, castles and barricades included.

hey there @JuneShores

Shalvenay

hey there @JuneShores

JuneShores

Hi hi!

BESW

→ 1 message moved to Trash

[wave]

Shalvenay

how're things going?

Papayaman1000

*reads trashed message*

*promptly regrets it*

JuneShores

03:49

Ehhhhn. Not great. Still unemployed and time is running out.

trogdor

@Papayaman1000 yeah pretty much

daze413

@godskook Illusionist

BESW

@JuneShores Oh dear.

Shalvenay

@JuneShores :/

JuneShores

Yeeeeeah.

trogdor

03:50

@Papayaman1000 you know what

I am not reading those anymore XD

BESW

JuneShores

:)

Joel Harmon

@eimyr It turns out the right-left distinction is fuzzy at best and only gets worse across time. Try taking the law/chaos debate and adding in a few hundred years' worth of real history.

Shalvenay

where are you these days again @JuneShores?

JuneShores

@Shalvenay Colorado.

Shalvenay

03:52

@JuneShores well drat

JuneShores

@Shalvenay Why do you ask?

Papayaman1000

May RNGesus grant you luck in these dark times.

...speaking of dark times, may I ask if you've spilled any caprine blood in the name of our Lord Cthulhu recently? He tends to punish those that neglect to slake His thirsts.

JuneShores

I have not. I should probably get on that!

Shalvenay

@JuneShores just wanted to take a look at what my employer had for job postings in your area, but nothing that'd suit you unless you somehow have 4 yrs of electrical/electronics experience+education or a journeyman electrician's license

JuneShores

@Shalvenay Ah, yeah. No such luck. Thanks though!

Shalvenay

03:54

@JuneShores (amazingly enough -- I'm very close to qualified for that job if I wanted to move down and join you :o)

JuneShores

@Shalvenay That would be sweet of you. :)

Shalvenay

@JuneShores sadly, "very close" is still several months out (and a lot of luck -- blinkin' tech electives)

JuneShores

04:09

Don't worry. I'll make it somehow.

Papayaman1000

...I shi--

ow.

nitsua60

@BESW I believe you mean "nevertheless" =)

Ben

04:26

Winter is confusing for those of us with a ruined sleep cycle, because that "morning chill" feeling is still there at 2pm

NEVERTHELESS

Ben

04:46

I didn't really have anything. Just wanted to use it on a sentence

Miniman

@nitsua60 It really bothers me how you use that word. Because ending arguments by triumphantly shouting "Nevertheless!" is a thing I do in real life, and I feel like you've stolen it. Except I know you haven't, because I've never done it here.

@Ben Winter is horrible for those of us with a sleep cycle completely unsuited to our lifestyle, because it makes it even harder to get up in the morning.

Adeptus

@Miniman I hear you. I'm just glad I don't live somewhere that gets snow in winter. Though, those places usually have central heating, so getting out of bed wouldn't be a problem, just leaving the house.

Ben

@Miniman like I just did?

Miniman

@Ben Well, you weren't actually in an argument as such. But I'm happy to believe you ended a hypothetical argument with your proud proclamation.

Ben

@Miniman I need a heated everything - heated gown, heated slippers, hot shower already running, heated clothes, and a hot coffee waiting as I walk out the door.

Miniman

04:57

@Ben Yaaaas.

Except the coffee.

Ben

That would make the process sooooo much easier

Miniman

And the shower, because showering in the morning is weird.

Ben

Meh. To each their own

I'm kinda the person that just feels stale in the morning

Adeptus

I need a morning shower. To wake up, and (in this weather) warm up.

Ben

That too.

Adeptus

04:59

I can function without it, but not well.

Miniman

I can see how that could work, but when I come home all gross and grotty, I don't want to sleep that way.

Ben

I used to work in a truck wash. So yes

As a matter of fact, when I worked there I would often shower 3 or 4 times daily

And don't even get me started on what it was like working there in winter...

[Subtly yet noticeably reaches down and presses the start button]

It was terrible

That's it.

daze413

05:15

@Ben eesshh... I live in a tropical climate so am not accustomed to any form of cold, but I once had the experience of working in a meat freezer and had the really bright idea of washing my hands... in -14 degrees Celsius. I regret it all my life, and I cringe at this.

Ben

Haha yeah. It wasn't so bad, after about 12 minutes you couldn't feel anything anyway. The only thing you had to keep an eye on was if you stopped shivering :P

daze413

@Ben is it because you stay up late or do you work odd hours?

Ben

05:30

Only the past few days. I've had to stay up until 2am to meet with America

I live in Aus

BESW

If someone asks real nice maybe I’ll release the stand-alone Dresden Files Accelerated PDF a little early, today/tomorrow.

Tweeted by fredhicks on June 9, 2017 at 4:51 AM

Miniman

@daze413 I just thought of something. You're from the Philippines, right?

daze413

@Miniman Yes, what up?

Miniman

@daze413 I've been unsure for years whether "pinoy" is an offensive term, or merely a casual one.

Oops, that's not actually a question. Is "pinoy" an offensive term?

daze413

@Miniman nah, it's pretty casual. Fun fact, the last president was given the nickname "PNoy"- President Noy, so you can rest assure you can call any of us Pinoys

Miniman

05:45

@daze413 Thanks, that's good to know!

BESW

In my experience living in a place with a large Filipino community, it certainly CAN be used offensively, but is not inherently or defaultly offensive--however, I rarely hear anyone outside the Filipino community use it in a serious, respectful way. Might just be here though.

Miniman

I mean, I've mostly heard it used as an accusation in multiplayer gaming contexts, so my assumption was that it was offensive.

daze413

If you pronounce it, emphasize the NOY- not the Pi. It sounds weird if you emphasize the "Pi", and might be taken as mocking

BESW

This sort of thing always gets a little skewed in places where there's a large community of easily identifiable not-from-around-heres.

...it never occurred to me to pronounce it that way. Huh.

I guess it's sorta like the Statesider I met who gave "Aguon" three syllables, emphasis on the second.

daze413

@Miniman our people suffer a lot in MMOs, yeah... It might be because, (as I've observed), pinoys are just below average in sportsmanship, and it's prominent when you play MMOs, especially the competitive ones.

What MMO do you play with them, if it's ok to ask?

Miniman

05:54

@daze413 I assumed it was because you'd have more lag than Australians on the same servers.

@daze413 Well, I have no idea if I actually was playing with any Philippions - I just saw people calling other people pinoys. Anyway, I mostly saw it back when I played LoL. It shows up occasionally in DotA and CounterStrike, but not nearly as commonly.

Hmmm, that's probably unfair.

There was far more flaming in League than in anything else I've played, so it's probably just as common as a percentage of the overall.

daze413

@Miniman no, that works. LoL way back was SEA + Australia, I think? Then they separated SEA and australia. Then they separated SEA and the Philippines XD. I think it's the same for DotA and counterstrike, but not sure if they have separated SEA like LoL did

Miniman

@daze413 It's really nice when you get your own servers XD

I still remember when Australia got our own Tribes servers - the difference between 200ms ping and 50ms was mind-blowing.

daze413

@Miniman nah, we get used to lag sooner or later (to me, 100ms ping is very fast already). I don't think we're just a very sportsmanlike country? Maybe it's in the environment here, or the upbringing, but it's tough to be sportsmanlike

BESW

Back in 2007-ish I played WoW, from Guam, on a US server, over a 56k modem. I lagged so hard that melee couldn't hit me in PvP.

Miniman

@daze413 I mean, the difference between gamers who played from an early age and gamers who only started later in life is extremely palpable and very difficult to overcome, so I can see how that could happen.

daze413

06:06

@Miniman I remember playing with 50ms in Heroes of Newerth (DotA clone that I really liked), it spoils you...

Miniman

@daze413 Man, I could not get into HoN at all.

daze413

@Miniman If you visit an internet cafe here, especially ones near schools, you will hear all the shouting and cursing that doesn't show up in game chat. I guess it's this, and children being exposed to this kind of behavior, that perpetuates the unsportsmanlike behavior.

@Miniman Was it the ladder climbing? Or something else?

Miniman

@daze413 The pay model, and the interface, mostly.

@daze413 OH! You were talking about sportsmanship like that. Huh, that's really interesting.

BESW

I have some Wineskin questions, if anyone's capable and willing to meet me in the NAB.

...wait, no, I need to go further before I can ask useful questions. As you were.

daze413

@Miniman pay model how? I don't remember it being pay to play... Was it different for Australian HoN? I liked it because they changed, removed, and added heroes to the original DotA, but it became an entirely different game.

Miniman

06:16

@daze413 Pay for heroes, from memory. Long time ago.

daze413

@Miniman Can't remember either :/ But I remember something about having to purchase new heroes, you know, the ones that are always terribly broken XD (I think I remember the designers commenting that when they release a new hero, they want them to be overpowered rather than under, and then tweak from there)

Miniman

@daze413 I found it hilarious when LoL changed the price for new heroes - the first 2 weeks after release (while they're still completely overpowered), new heroes cost twice as much.

daze413

@Miniman That's really clever marketing, though. And a really good way to get feedback on how broken your new hero is- the ones who don't own them will suggests nerfs for you XD

Miniman

@daze413 Well, yeah. But the audacity of it is somewhat breathtaking (at least, to me).

Adeptus

wow, that takes pay-to-win to a whole new level

daze413

06:32

@Adeptus nah, it wasn't that bad of a pay-to-win scheme. They're overpowered but manageable because a) there's also a chance that someone from your team has the new hero, b) you still had 4 other team mates that could gang up on the overpowered guy.

BESW

06:50

"To be truly useful, the map should have an impact on the adventures. Otherwise it’s just a page decoration, and all too often a mediocre one."

Haquim

07:17

Hey, quick question from the sideline: If i accidentally created a duplicate, is it good style to leave it or rather delete it so people don't waste time on it?

BESW

Leave the dupe.

Haquim

Alright, thanks

BESW

The dupe-close message redirects to the place with the answers, so by leaving the dupe up people who Google for the question closer to the way you asked will be more likely to find the answers they need.

2

Haquim

I guess that makes sense

I'm just a bit embarassed by the dupe, because its basically caused by a difference caused by translation... which was preventable if I just looked up the english version first :/

BESW

It's kinda like how a really comprehensive index will have entries saying "see [other entry]," but we're crowd-sourcing the cross-references and you just added another one.

Ooh, interesting. I'm always curious about translations and multilingual contact zones.

Haquim

07:22

Well translation errors can be pretty "creative"

In this case the translation might have been either based on an older draft or the translator tried to be clever. Anyway the english version was "grants resistance to" while my version (translated back ofc) read "takes half damage from"

And regarding translation errors: my favorito ones are both from star wars, but I think it might be hard to convey them

BESW

07:41

TIL that running Terminal commands on an optical disk drive through Remote Drive Sharing is perhaps one or two points of failure too many.

Haquim

I don't think I understand... you are running commands on a CD?

BESW

Yeah, trying to tell the computer to do something with a DVD using code commands because that command isn't available through the graphic user interface.

But I'm trying to put the commands in on one computer while the DVD drive is physically part of another computer on the network.

In theory it should work, but it's got too many fiddly bits to be actually practicable.

Adeptus

My favourite useless technological trick is, using VPN & Remote Desktop on my Android phone, to connect to my work PC, that has Remote Desktop Connection Manager connecting to a bunch of servers. It works, it's just unusable...

Haquim

That sounds doable, but unreasonably complicated

If i was you BESW I'd just use the "sneakernet" and walk up to the second PC to insert my commands there :)

Unless ofc it is a couple kilometres away I guess

BESW

Yeah, I was just trying to be fancy and lazy.

Haquim

07:55

There is nothing wrong with that: Innovation is driven by lazy people working hard to make working easier :)

Now another question... about how to ask a question.

Haquim

08:11

I want to make a change to some rules in DnD 5e, and I'd like some insight on how this might affect the game. I basically want to know beforehand if my logic is sound and the effects are what I want them to be.

But when I ask something like this people mostly just challenge WHY I even want to make that change, and totally ignore my question

How do I prevent this to get the answers I actually asked for instead?

BESW

I'm not sure what kind of "challenges" you're getting, but there's a useful difference between "Why are you doing this?" and "You shouldn't do that."

It's important to know why you're making a change, in order for answerers to address your question usefully: the first question in design is "What is your game about?" and that applies to homebrew changes as well as full system design.

We can't tell you much useful about your rules without knowing what effect you want the rules to have on gameplay.

Haquim

Well maybe "challenge" is not the right word

BESW

Rules aren't good or bad, logical or illogical, except in how they accomplish a given design goal.

Haquim

What I mean is that I get neither "Why are you doing this" nor "You shouldn't do that" or "yes go ahead"

waht i get is mostly "why would you do that?"

BESW

Got an example so we can avoid confusion by paraphrasing?

Haquim

08:17

No actually its rather "why would you want that?"

I can try

BESW

Link a question where you've had this experience.

Haquim

even better

Be careful though, its pretty long.

1

Q: What would change if opportunity attacks had more triggers?

Our table plays with the optional rule to allow flanking to grant advantage on attack rolls, however, this seems to be too easy to achieve considering the way opportunity attacks are triggered. I think it is rather strange that the only thing triggering opportunity attacks is leaving threatened ...

Maybe I'm just asking my questions the wrong way, but I can't change what I'm not aware of, which is why I am asking this here...

BESW

08:32

Hmm, okay, so what I'm seeing is that you have two related but not necessarily identical problems (the rules don't simulate your understanding of combat as much as you'd like, and combat movement isn't as risky as you'd like), but instead of asking for solutions to those problems you're asking for input on the one solution you've chosen to address both of them.

Haquim

Both true, but the second is kinda the consequence of the first - and, at least that was my intention, the topic of the linked question - An unknown error has occurred

BESW

This does not necessarily make it an XY problem but it's going to get a lot of folks looking at it carefully because we see that sort of thing a lot.

Haquim

Ok I just skimmed the link, since I tried to explain the problem I want to solve and gave out details as good as I could it propably really isn't that XY problem

very interesting by the way, I didn't know that

As far as I can tell - which might not be very accurate - the trouble stems from other people not actually viewing the problem I want so solve as a problem.

Consequently they try to explain to me why I actually HAVE no problem that needs solving, instead of evaluating my proposed solution to it.

daze413

If I may weigh in, what is the problem youre having? Is it that flanking is so easy to achieve, based on what you said in the third paragraph, or is it that you want more triggers for opportunity attacks, because why would you put in the condition for trigger #1 (standing from prone)

tackling both the problem with flanking and opportunity attacks; and standing from prone and opportunity attacks, may have made your question too big for a potential answerer

Haquim

Oh that standing up from prone has nothing to do with my primary issue. I just thought that fit in nicely, since the rest of the question was about AOOs. Thats a relatively minor issue, mainly consisting of people being knocket out, falling prone, getting healed, standing up and hacking away without anybody caring about it...

Really? I thought that was barely a sidenote with the main question about the movement...

daze413

08:48

@Haquim I had thought of that fix as well for the prone thing, had the question typed up but didn't hit 'post', I realized how it wasn't a problem during the typing. You could post that separately, as it is clearly just a sidenote for you

Haquim

Of course I could, but I don't like spamming questions that seem barely different from each other :/

daze413

It's not very similar, though, standing from prone is more common than running a few squares around the enemy, believe it or not

well, maybe not in all tables. I don't know if you use wolves as much as i do XD

also, there's no issue of spamming questions, here. Unless its actual spamming

Haquim

Not yet. I was thinking about it, but the prone condition did literally NOTHING so I decided not to.

Since standing up has no real disadvantage all prone does is give a melee attacker advantage

but since wolves have "pack tactics" its gonna have advantage anyway, so why bother?

daze413

@Haquim prone guys also have disadvantage on all attacks, I like to knock things prone and then run away without disengaging as a sort of hedged risk of getting OAs

Haquim

.... that prone guys can even make OAs is frankly quite retarded by itself.

BESW

08:56

Let's use less harsh language, please.

(Also, that fight on the ground in Mad Max Fury Road was almost entirely prone OAs.)

daze413

@Haquim Part of why I didn't submit the question is that knocking something prone is also fairly inconsequential- consider that, even for monsters, knocking something prone only costs an attack, not an action, and to add to that, a lot of creatures can knock something prone for relatively free

Haquim

oops

well sorry about the language

daze413

@Haquim I think you are suffering from an edition lag. The 'prone' you had in another RPG, isn't the same 'prone' in 5e. The fact that they can still attack, reminds me of that scene in Call of Duty where the protagonist was still bleeding, crawling on the ground, clutching the knife and chucking it at the antagonists face. Meanwhile, if you look up "prone" in the dictionary, means literally lying flat on the ground, so I can see why you think it is odd.

Haquim

@daze413 I don't think thats the real problem. I know a bit of swordplay, and believe me - it doesn't matter wether you are lying flat on the ground, crawling around on your belly or back.

if some other guy with a sword is still standing next to you and wants you dead, your only hope is that someone saves you or he does something REALLY stupid

BESW

There's also the issue of expecting D&D to be a realistic fight simulator in any particular aspect.

At its best, D&D is a heroic trope simulator.

Haquim

09:03

You're not wrong

BESW

There are other systems which have "be a realistic fight simulator" in their mandate, if you're looking for that.

Haquim

"Realistic" is way more than I actually want

daze413

@Haquim minor nitpick, though I know your point NEVERTHELESS!! stands, I meant crawling as in on all fours, not flat on your belly :)

Haquim

@daze413 I was imagining crawling on your belly under barbed wire. But what you're describing is even worse! How would you bring your weapon or shield between yourself and the guy out to kill you?

BESW

So for me, if someone says "I want D&D 5e to be a different kind of fight simulator," I'm going to first ask why they aren't looking for systems which are already closer to what they're after--because the answer to that will help me understand their situation and what kind of answers will be helpful.

daze413

09:05

oh man, there's construction work going on in the office across to ours, and the fume is leaking in :/ might have to go off early today

Haquim

Well I think I can sum up what I want pretty easily, although its a bit broad

Enemies, or rather characters no matter what kind should be more than a spot on on the battlemap that is occupied.

daze413

@Haquim I don't imagine parrying in that situation, I'm thinking rolling over and dodging- but maybe it's just all those action movies heh

rolling over, then using the momentum to get back up on your feet- that's what standing up from prone looks like in my head

BESW

You might like D&D 4e, if you're looking for more tactical conflict mechanics. Or GURPS if you want more fiddly bits, or... so part of asking "why hack 5e?" is to find out what you like about the system which keeps you in it.

Haquim

AOs are clearly a thing, so why would I attack someone running away, but not hinder someone trying to walk around me to get in my back?

@BESW thats easy: It is comparatively simple and streamlined. But simple and streamlined shouldn't mean that a mechanic like flanking must be unopposed because adding a way to prevent it is "too complicated"

Maybe take it from the other side: Which ways, outside of magic or standing in the corner of a wall, do you see to hinder (not necessarily outright prevent) being flanked

daze413

@Haquim I imagine it is because you're also occupied by the one you're facing.

Haquim

09:14

I would accept that, if not for two things:

1. if you are standing alone, he can still walk leisurely around you, even assuming that you keep facing him, thats not a smart thing to let happen.

2. if he stands in your back and moves away you can now suddenly turn around and attack him in the blink of an eye :/

daze413

@Haquim Well, the only advice I can give you is try to look at the mechanics, and how it supports the fiction. Not the other way around. If you're both standing alone, how can a guy approach and move to your 'back' (which, btw, does not exist in 5e by default)? It must be because you're not just waiting for someone to attack, there must be blows being exchanged already, allowing the person to move a few feet while in your range... cont..

cont.. How can you suddenly turn around and attack him if he moves away? Maybe it's because you're not just focusing on the guy in front of you, you're trading blows with both of them, and if any of the two show an opening, you would take it right away

Though I can see your point. If you're along an edge, and you see a guy trying to position himself to shove you off it, you wouldn't allow that, IRL, for example

Haquim

I admit the second part fits nicely.

daze413

then again, it goes back into the question of "what, really, is initiative and turns and rounds?"

Haquim

But really, can you imagine two fencers who move 5 feet per second around each other while exchanging blows?

Oh god, and now we have reached RPG theory and philosophy O.o

Maybe I should really just try that particular thing in my group and see how it goes - and drop it if it doesn't go well

BESW

Yup, poke any RPG mechanic with a stick and it turns into abstraction. Nature of the game.

Haquim

09:24

It can't be THAT game-breaky I think.... after all every game piece has only ONE reaction

BESW

All mechanics are abstractions, all abstractions are leaky, it's just a matter of which leaks a given system thinks are worth minimising and which won't sink the play goals.

Haquim

MY playgoal is that if anybody does risky flanks without being plastered as a consequence it is the rogue - whose class supports this

BESW

@Haquim So, I don't know 5e much at all. But in 3.5 and 4e, an important factor in balance (or, in 3.5's case, lack thereof) was access to out-of-turn action choices. Some classes had to struggle to get any, others were drowning in options.

Haquim

I don't want Paladins and Barbarians dancing about doing this

daze413

and rogues... they get sneak attacks with OAs

BESW

09:27

If 5e bases any of its class design on controlling the availability and nature of OAs, then expanding the baseline usefulness of OAs could easily shift the desirability of those classes which were designed with the assumption that OAs had a lower baseline usefulness.

Haquim

Yes they do - also cunning action

daze413

and anyone with sentinel or war caster

Haquim

Ahh sentinel

Maybe I understand the word wrong, but a Sentinel is basically a guard, right?

daze413

... I am answering the question in chat haha.. Well, I dont think thats a bad thing

Haquim

Well, since the question leads to discussion, i guess thats simply a better format for this particular one :/

daze413

09:29

@Haquim yeah, I just played with a PC with sentinel last night, it was extermely effective on OAs, and locking down a creature

Haquim

Ok, before I continue do me a favor and elaborate that

how did he lock it down when he only gets OAs if it tries to escape from him?

daze413

PC's with Sentinel can OA even if the person disengages. If a sentinel hits with an OA, the target's speed becomes zero, so there's no running away from sentinels. (which the NPC was trying to do)

aside from that,

sentinels can also attack (though strictly not called an opportunity attack) as a reaction, any creature that attacks another creature if the target is within 5 ft of you. This results in creatures being really discouraged to attack anything other than the sentinel

Haquim

Wow, I somehow do not remember readint the last part

anyway, yes thats pretty cool.

BESW

Sentinel sounds like 5e's version of 4e's Fighter.

Haquim

Truth be told, Sentinel was a feat I had pretty much in mind when proposing that

It makes SO much sense to me for a Sentinel to stop enemies trying to get past him

as opposed to only stop enemies trying to get away from him

daze413

09:36

@BESW basically, this, @Haquim. The whole system was balanced with OAs being rare, I've seen OAs be really punishing in-game (paladin smites, rogue sneaks, warcaster shenanigans), if you increase the number of OAs, remember who has more actions and more creatures... the DM. So the DM is going to benefit from that more than the players.

Haquim

Divine smite is a bonus action?

daze413

@Haquim divine smites can be added to any attack that hits- that includes reactions

Haquim

Hmm well that is pretty much what I asked for

But then again, that might work out.... might... i gotta think about it

daze413

but, you know, try it out. It sounds fun. You don't need any opinion if you think that your game will be more fun :)

Haquim

Players have options that improve the reactions, but the DM has more game pieces that can take them...

daze413

09:40

what's the worst that can happen?

If it seems like it's causing problems, take it out.

Haquim

I could accidentally kill everyone, because the rogue got in a bad position he couldn't escape and everyone else died trying to rez him?

daze413

If the players asked for it, they picked their poison :) if it was your fault, own up to it and retcon. Apologize and move on

I remember finally allowing my players' request to allow called shots... After a few zombies mangled their arms and gouged their eyes, they wanted it to go back the way it was before.

Haquim

You're right. At least I now have a better understanding what options it will change - which is what I asked for.

Called shots are a good idea in pretty much any system that isn't DnD imo...

daze413

Anyway, the fumes are getting into my eyes :/ I'mma head home.

Haquim

Well thanks for your help, and have a nice friday and weekend :)

daze413

09:45

ttfn :D

@Haquim T_T we work saturdays haha

Haquim

cya

D'oh

well.... make the best of it :/

daze413

but monday is a holiday, and sunday is father's day, which is nice :)

chatizens, put down the dice for a while and remember that sunday is father's day. K. PSA done

Haquim

well, theres some good news after all

enjoy :)

eimyr

10:03

@daze413 Thanks, but remember Father's Day is not internationally on the same day.

Joel Harmon

11:39

@BESW What would be the correct pronunciation of "Aguon"?

BESW

PXC 36 - Kyle Aguon vs Trevin Jones Part1

►

Joel Harmon

@daze413 I wouldn't necessarily put down those dice; gaming with family could be an excellent father's day for some dads

doppelgreener

@BESW i didn't catch that. "kyle augie"?

they near to totally skip over his surname

BESW

Uggin, but with just a little emphasis on the first syllable.

doppelgreener

oh huh

BESW

11:45

At least, that's close enough. The last vowel leans a little towards "on" rather than "in."

doppelgreener

Reminds me of the name Aoife (which I bet you wouldn't pronounce ee-fah until told that's how it's pronounced)

BESW

Heh. And the exact pronunciation of Balajadia depends on which family you're talking about.

I recently heard an interviewer who really ought to know better put the emphasis on the wrong syllable in "Hassan."

@doppelgreener Also Siobhan.

The Oracle

0

Q: What needs to be changed in this question about Augury?

The Q about Augury and contracts has been closed as a duplicate to a Q that (IMO) it is not a duplicate to. The reason is, as I have stated in a comment: This is not a duplicate because that linked Q is asking about the timing, this one is asking about the validity of signing contracts as a cour...

discussion closed-questions

Anne Aunyme

12:32

@JoelHarmon Playing board games with my dad is bad memories, he always has this way of physically hide the stuff on his side of the board so you don't suspect he is winning...

doppelgreener

12:58

TIL I need to stop saying the phrase "vote to close" as a moderator on here, since I no longer vote to close anything, I just close it, and the phrasing strikes people as a bit odd.

TIL also I am a bit grumpy today for some reason and I need to watch out and be conscious of when I'm feeling grumpy since it impacts how I interact with people. Nobody wants a moderator getting grumpy at them.

Dr R Dizzle

When you guys create magic using NPC's, do you bother preparing spells for them and what not, or do you just use whatever spells they need to use?

Like, do you create a full character and play them as such, or is there a shortcut?

doppelgreener

@DrRDizzle Which game?

Dr R Dizzle

@doppelgreener 5E, sorry.

doppelgreener

@DrRDizzle 👍

When running D&D 4e I'd lay out the monsters' powers in advance, but if I were running a game like D&D 5e there'd be scenarios where I'd just list the kinds of spells a creature might have prepared, and let them have a sort of spontaneous preparation+casting.

Dr R Dizzle

@doppelgreener Fair enough, good to know.

doppelgreener

13:06

Doing so would probably be antithetical to some DM's playstyles (such as, I imagine, simulationists) but I like the opportunity to bring fun to the players that way.

The players may not fully know the difference anyway.

Dr R Dizzle

I'm willing to sacrifice mechanical accuracy for speed/fun, so it's fine by me.

NautArch

@DrRDizzle I prefer to have prepared spells. More fair to generally play by the same rules.

doppelgreener

I think if I were designing mooks I'd just assign them specific spells since it's not worth thinking about too much, but if I were designing a significant NPC, I'd fill some of their slots with their "signature" spells and leave others blank for me to spontaneously fill in later on demand -- but I'd note the spells they'd have that I'd pick from.

Dr R Dizzle

It's pretty much just gonna be mooks.

doppelgreener

If there's a major mook -- say, a bunch of wolves and a wolf trainer -- I'd treat the wolf trainer as a bit significant and pick out a small handful of situational spells I could use to make the combat more fun if it goes specific ways.

& I'd be super tempted to one day give them a wolf trainer who has a spell that raises the wolves as undead mid-combat. :D

Dr R Dizzle

13:14

It's more like a group of people who are opposing the PC's, some of whom are magical.

It's still part of this Hunger Games-esque situation I'll be running.

NautArch

@DrRDizzle I also like to create characters and have fun 'building' my NPCs.

since i rarely get to build new PCs.

but i do like to follow the same rules as my players

Dr R Dizzle

@NautArch Well, the NPC's that are going to end up as important are more fleshed out. But these magic guys are almost certainly gonna be "one and done" characters.

doppelgreener

@DrRDizzle <- (psst @nitsua60 @Miniman, also @Magician though I'm not sure if you play D&D 5e)

Magician

Whaa? No, never played 5e, sorry.

doppelgreener

oop. :D

But you might have an opinion nevertheless if you've played 3.5e.

or prior.

Magician

13:19

On the topic of choosing spells, though, back in the 3.5 days, I once spent a whole evening doing just that for a 20th level mage the party was going to face (along with all of his apprentices and comrades). He died in the first round. I quit 3.5 a month later.

Dr R Dizzle

This is my exact concern. I don't want to over-prepare.

doppelgreener

@Magician I remember that. T_T

Magician

One of the genius things 4e did was reduce the NPC abilities to only a few actually relevant ones. Gone were the days of "this devil casts as a 14th level sorcerer, and also has these 20 spell-like abilities, good luck". Here's a devil. It has a sword and a fireball, and maybe a teleport if you're feeling fancy. Go. Have fun.

So... If at all possible, pick a couple of highest level spells the NPC is likely to cast, and don't worry too much?

NautArch

@DrRDizzle if you're just putting together their spells, it won't take that long. But not managing a real spell list or slots may end up being unfair or unbalanced when it comes down to it.

Dr R Dizzle

@Magician That's what I'm thinking.

NautArch

13:23

Magician's idea to only worry about the two highest level slots/spells is a great idea

doppelgreener

@Magician I adored the way D&D 4e handled monster creation. It was the single best innovation in D&D's history.

At least, in the scope of D&D.

Dr R Dizzle

I just found a site called rpgtinker.com which seems pretty good.

NautArch

@DrRDizzle wow!

Miniman

@DrRDizzle I use premades. WotC picks the most unbelievably garbage spell lists, so it stops me from picking all the actually effective spells.

Dr R Dizzle

@Miniman Premade from where?

Miniman

13:26

@DrRDizzle Monster Manual, Volo's, premade adventures...

Magician

@Miniman I don't remember if you played 3.5, but WotC had an unhealthy fascination with Alertness and other garbage feats for its NPCs. Oh, that's the other thing. Feats. You could sit down and stat up any monster, to suddenly be twice as dangerous.

Dr R Dizzle

@Miniman Ah, I see.

Miniman

@Magician Yeah, I remember.

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