TRPG General Chat

KorvinStarmast

14:02

@Ben I am going to strongly recommend that you don't go for simultaneous combat in D&D 5e, for the simple reason that it will invalidate some core melee combat tools: things like stun, knock prone, push, etc, which last Until the next turn, get either nerfed or knocked out of whack by simultaneous combat each turn.

NautArch

@Adam I've definitely toned things down. I could have TPK'd my players a few times, but that's not fun. The one character I actively killed was an accident. I had pointed Disintegrate at a different character (my own) and then another said "oh, you don't have line of sight, you have to pick a new one." Random roll for target later...that guy dies.

KorvinStarmast

@Ben during an era when the rules engine wasn't yet that precise, one of our groups (mid 1970's) resolved combat simultaneously: the DM did all of the monsters/NPC's, we players all took our turn, and the aggregate result was that nobody lost a turn, all had a chance to hit or act, and then you might be knocked out, dead, or alive at the end of the round. That was not the rules, though, since the game began with "who goes first"

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast And what goes second?

KorvinStarmast

@Ben Initiative and the turn based system of rounds and turns, and initiative order makes players think tactically, which appears to be a design goal of the game. What you can do to avoid "sitting around" is increase the "your turn, what's your action" and with no answer you "OK, you pass" and go to the next player.

@Yuuki I don't know, maybe third base? 8^D

@Ben --is increase the "your turn, what's your action" pacing -- is what I meant

nitsua60

14:20

@DrRDizzle @Ryan Just remember that RPGSE embraces a plurality of playstyles. Some like one style (DM pulls punches and isn't trying "win" encounters), some like another (DM is playing monsters in a struggle for their own lives). They're all good fun, even if they're not all your cuppa. (Which is a lot of what @Adam and @NautArch were saying, but I wanted to drop the meta link.)

NautArch

@nitsua60 I embrace nothing!

or everything

something?

Yuuki

I champion the One True Playstyle: "Once upon a time, the end. It's getting late and I'm too tired to deal with this. Go home."

eimyr

@Yuuki I recommend a hot new game called "The Heat Death of the Universe"

nitsua60

@Adam For me (personally) I feel the need to do this sort of thing (nerf a monster) if I feel I didn't adequately describe the danger the characters would have perceived. If I make it clear they're headed into cave of doom and they die, that's on them. If I tell them they see a squirrel in a sunny glade which is Ratatosk and it's pissed and Ygdrassil falls and you all die HAHAHA, then I've done something wrong. (In my book.)

@NautArch almost everything =)

NautArch

For that one character death, Disintegrate was unleashed because of a failure to do any exploration in the area (which was heavy handed hinted.) Don't prep for what you know his coming? SUffer the consequence.

KorvinStarmast

14:29

@NautArch Yeah. As Sgt Esterhouse used to say in Hill Street Blues "Be careful out there!" The world the Players adventure in is dangerous. Have you looked at how many HP the monsters have? Played intelligently, monsters are dangerous and deadly. They can kill you. D&D 5e.

NautArch

14:43

@KorvinStarmast we may be the only two who get that here...

Our main campaign officially gets two more players thursday night! A tempest cleric and a wild magic sorcerer. Very excited!

Adam

Wooo!

NautArch

that brings us to a berserker, light cleric, vengeancy pally, tempest cleric, wild magic sorcerer and a NPC that I've been running who will likely be killed off completely because he's not relaly needed to help bolster the party.

i'm pretty bummed about the last thing if he's removed. I've spent a lot of actions keeping that dude alive. Have grown fond.

Adam

Alternative option is to just have him leave. He does not need to die

NautArch

@Adam kind of the up to the DM. I guess i'll found out.

I've also spent a ton of gold outfitting him so he can keep up.

he's squishy and has gone down in every fight we've had, but i've kept him alive. He also has a tendency to finish off monsters. Which has been fun.

RollingFeles

Good everything to everyone!

@Shalvenay ping :)

ACuriousMind

14:56

@RollingFeles I believe the traditional greeting is "hey there" ;)

RollingFeles

@ACuriousMind greeting was on previous line :P

KorvinStarmast

15:22

@NautArch Sounds like your NPC is a nice side kick, like Elric's/Eternal Champion's ... kinda squishy

@NautArch I can't wait until my nephew shows up, he's doing a Water Domain Cleric, DM approved variant, that I am keen to see play out. I think the DM approved Water Genesai for our campaign ...

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast very much so. When we were in the feywilds, he joined us on our quest to defeat the great evil.

I don't think the DM thought he'd still be alive at this point. We're now level 12 and he's got 50 HP.

but had about 35 for the majority of our time together

GiTP forums down for a few days, eh @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I had not checked today. Do you participate there?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I did, but recently I haven't been enjoying it and spending more time here.

i go by a different name on there, but have talked about my characters enough in both places you may be able to/have figure it out

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I've gotten reported a number of times by people taking my disagreeing with them as a personal attack. Sorta weird. However, there are some interesting conversations about the UA in particular that I enjoy

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I had to make a conscious decision no longer to participate in rules discussions there. Mostly stick to questions how asking for help, builds, spell selections, etc.

KorvinStarmast

15:31

The latest flame war regarding Druids and Metal armor was sorta hilarious.

Chemus

@KorvinStarmast That is seen by some to be real problem with the moderation there; someone can be a bully by calling another a bully and get them banned.

NautArch

I mean, that's a pretty clear limitation. I just got the feeling that there a lot of folks who stretch the rules for powergaming.

I'm fine with rule adjustments for fun, flavor or DM choice - but sweeping generalizations to empower the characters just because get annoying (to me)

Be Nice :)

@KorvinStarmast I've nearly blocked a few, but then they have interesting and reasonable comments on other threads and I decide against.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Heh, that was me being nice. (Old salty Navy man (retired) here)

Adam

@KorvinStarmast Still not very nice.

MadMAxJr

Any sufficiently large community will have conflicting opinions on any topic. GOUDA CHEESE KNIGHT? HOW DARE YOU, MOZZARELLA PASTA SOLDIER IS BEST.

Navy. Carrier man by chance?

KorvinStarmast

15:36

I prefer the Camembert Cavalier, sir, even if it is runny

@MadMAxJr A little time on America, Midway, and Independence, but mostly cruisers, destroyers, frigates.

MadMAxJr

@KorvinStarmast Friend served on the Regan. Got to see the most frightening deck crew event. Cable snap on landing.

Nobody hurt, just a lot of brief panic.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam OK, not all of group B exhibits trait A, if that clears up my assessment.

@MadMAxJr Saw a Hornet do a Ramp Strike once. not pretty.

NautArch

The threads on hiding, illusions and other things have sent me into a tailspin.

Adam

@KorvinStarmast The problem I have with it isn't calling the people on the site crybabies, it's the "Millenial Crybaby" bit. That's just talking down about people of a whole generation, my generation, and I don't much appreciate it

NautArch

@Adam At least you have a generation. I'm not really Gen X or Gen Y.

KorvinStarmast

15:42

@Adam OK, I'll take that as offered, and observe that all of group do not exhibit that trait. Thanks for the feedback.

Adam

@NautArch generations are just a bunch of arbitrarily made up designations anyway. Don't worry about it. In reality, people are just born in a particular year and go about their life.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast play the grumpy old man card!

KorvinStarmast

@Adam I've flagged that remark and asked that it be removed, as it's too late for me to do so myself.

Riker

in the future, you don't need to do that

KorvinStarmast

@Riker I was going to remove it myself, based on Adam's feedback, but find that the time had expired.

Riker

15:45

ah

Adam

Millennials Don't Exist! Adam Conover at Deep Shift

►

doppelgreener

here, have a comic about millennials

KorvinStarmast

@Adam Communists in the State Department didn't exist either. 8^D (Oh, wait, they did, as history and declassified Russian archives show).

Not so sure about Illuminati, though ... jury is still out on that one.

Adam

This reminds me of all the conversations with my dad where he jokes about how millennials are spineless or irresponsible or something and I remind him that he was the generation of woodstock, hippies, and being useless in his own youth. And then we both laugh and move on with our days

Riker

@doppelgreener how long has your avatar been different?

I hadn't noticed

doppelgreener

15:48

@Riker I changed it around this time yesterday.

Riker

ah ok

that explains that >_>

KorvinStarmast

@Adam Was at a music festival a few weeks ago, near Austin, where a whole lot of hippies, my age and a bit older, tend to congregate. Hippy is not aging well.

Most of my hippy friends from HS/college era out grew it. Others didn't.

Adam

The man got them! ;)

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, they must have all sold out. Like Metallica? (there's a band I never really liked, until my son started listening to them ... now they are to me tolerable)

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast Well, I mean as you get old, you get less hip. That's why you replace them.

GreySage

15:53

One of the biggest problems with "Millenials" is that the term is undefined. Sometimes it means anyone who was born in the 80s, sometimes in the 90s or 2000s, more often it's just any group that you disagree with.

KorvinStarmast

Out of curiosity, have any of you played Firefly RPG? I have the book but I am not sure about the system. @GreySage I though the ones born in the 80's were Generation Y?

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast That would be the problem, no one knows!

KorvinStarmast

Gaaaaaah. Is a generation 20 or 25 years, or is it a marketing demographic? As I am no longer in the 18-45 demographic, my junk mail changes a lot.

GreySage

I was born in 89, but when I was in highschool we were told we were the "echo" generation, whatever that means

KorvinStarmast

Heh, that's when my daughter was born. I never hear the "echo" thing. (You could call her generation reverb, as she's a professional singer ...)

NautArch

15:56

@KorvinStarmast a lot of aging hippies around Austin :) Had some friends we'd visit in Buda when I was at A&M.

GreySage

I personally assign "millenial" to anyone 18-25, although the people in that group have changed over the years. Not that it means anything, really.

MadMAxJr

All I know about my generation is I am among the last to know a pre-easily-accessible-internet society.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch We have friends in Kyle, and I've been both drunk and to church in Buda on the same weekend.

GreySage

@MadMAxJr I was like the only kid in my elementary school to use the internet regularly.

But by high school it became common

NautArch

is there an official chart for starting wealth if you begin as a higher level character in 5e?

KorvinStarmast

15:57

@GreySage I first got onto a networked computer in the mid 1970's; our Comp Sci teacher would call up, get our session started, and we'd try to write a program in Basic. Grognards were the ones all using Fortran.

GreySage

@NautArch Yes

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I remember learning basic in school - and doing stuff in Logo in elementary school.

Yuuki

@NautArch IIRC, there should be a wealth per level chart somewheres.

KorvinStarmast

I left that computer stuff mostly behind for the 80's, until I got a Leading Edge AT/Clone in 87 and had to start messing about with DOS.

Adam

16

Q: What's the starting wealth for higher levels?

The PHB only gives starting wealth for Level 1 PCs. Based on my experience in other games, specifically Pathfinder, I would expect to get more at higher levels. Where can I find an appropriate table or calculation?

GreySage

15:59

Page 38 DMG

@NautArch ^

Adam

@Yuuki Less a wealth per level chart and more a Starting Equipment by Level chart

NautArch

@GreySage @Adam Thank you!

KorvinStarmast

What Adam said. I get the idea that WBL has been binned for 5e ...

NautArch

dang, that still basically isn't enough to get plate

Adam

@NautArch What level are you starting at?

MadMAxJr

16:02

Sword. Doublesword. Swiss Army Sword. Swordswordsword. Kingsword. Galaxysword. Sword of Bees.

Just pick the one that's right for your power level.

NautArch

@Adam 10th

Adam

Just barely...If you are in a high magic campaign, your one uncommon magic item could be magic plate if the DM were to allow it. Doesn't even need to be +1 or anything. Adamantine or Mithral Plate is uncommon

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Our friends were living on someone else's land up there. The owners had built kind of a room that ended up being their 'house' for awhile. They got one of those huge 6-8' diameter stainless steel troughs, put it on cinder blocks and lit a fire under it as a 'hot tub'.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam is Adamantine by default magical?

Adam

@KorvinStarmast It's part of the magic Items table in the DMG, so I would assume so

GreySage

16:05

@KorvinStarmast Yeah its a magic item, not a special material. Turns crits into regular hits

NautArch

@Adam yeah, they didn't pick that as their items. Went with Goggles of Night and a CLoak of protection.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch IIRC, Hippies were pretty good at getting the most out of a buck.

Adam

7

Q: Are weapons and armor made of Mithral or Adamantine considered magical?

In a recent dungeon crawl, I was ambushed by some grey ooze. The ooze managed to land a couple successful hits on me, which would normally cause my armor to degrade. However, I was using a set of mithral chain mail that I had found in a previous session. I know that the statistics for mithral and...

dnd-5e magic-items weapons armor special-materials

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage @Adam Thanks, I thought we'd had a q on that ...

NautArch

goggles of night are pretty great for this tempest cleric. Gives him darkvision range (he is a wood elf) of 120' - so he can cast call lightning at night or in caverns with enough clearance.

KorvinStarmast

16:07

Heck, I even made a comment.... old fart memory strikes again ...

Back in 1e days, I seem to recall that a +4 Magical shield/armor was by default Mithral, and +5 was by default Adamantite, but I'd need to look that up.

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast in 3.5 they had equivalent DR effects (So a monster with DR/Adamantine would also take full damage from a +5 weapon).

KorvinStarmast

Aha, DMG page 164! (1e) Armor of +3 bonus is of special meteorite iron steel, +4 is mithral alloyed steel, +5 is adamantite alloyed steel Old Fart Memory not so bad ...

Yuuki

16:24

@KorvinStarmast But actual meteorite iron is probably a -1 bonus.

But starmetal is still cool though.

KorvinStarmast

Starmetal and meteorite iron ALLOY ... not the same thing? Hmmmm.

Last I checked, Excalibur was made from meteorite alloyed steel ...

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast They aren't? I just thought meteorite iron, starmetal, thunderbolt iron, etc. were all names for metal made from meteorites.

KorvinStarmast

Steel is an alloy of iron and other stuff ... and D&D 1e is not a material science book.

Yuuki

So out of desperation, I took a look at a 5e Paladin guide for... guidance, and they recommend that Warlock dips either go 1, 3, or 7 levels.

KorvinStarmast

IIRC D&D got that idea from the Excalibur legend originally. I'd need to look that one up.

Adam

16:30

@Yuuki Lots of build guides I've seen suggest dumping a level or 2 for either warlock or fighter

KorvinStarmast

Dipping ... you pay a price at 5th level. A Straight Paladin is pretty good. I have toyed with a OoTA and Fey Patron Paladin build ... interesting permutatinos.

IIRC, the reason to get two lvls of fighter first is to increase the number of fighting styles and get that con save prof?

NautArch

@Yuuki I think you know my view on dipping - especially with paladin :)

Yuuki

Yeah. They say 7 levels of Warlock if you want recharging 4th level spell slots.

@NautArch Yeah, I'm vacillating between whether I want to or not.

Adam

@KorvinStarmast You get Action Surge as a lvl 2 fighter

NautArch

GiTP loves the sorcerer dip for paladin - but I like my paladin goodies.

Getting that extra d8/hit at 11th level is a big deal.

KorvinStarmast

16:33

@Adam OH, yeah, and action surge. Good point.

If we are able to keep our group together to get into double digits it will be awesome. Last time we got to 6/7 and then RL killed it.

Adam

@KorvinStarmast That's why I don't multiclass very much. My games haven't ever gone long enough where it's really viable. saying "I'll just take a 1 level dip and still be a 19th level [class]" sounds pretty good...until you end up finishing the game at 10th level, if you're lucky

Yuuki

Maybe I'll take one level of Warlock after 9th level and then four levels of Paladin and then finish off with Warlock levels.

KorvinStarmast

@Adam there was a good post on GiTP 5e forum the other day on Just How Many of you get to 20th level? 15th level? It was interesting to see the responses.

Having looked at your avatar about three times, I think I am seeing a mind flayer in full kick butt mode. Is that right?

NautArch

@Yuuki 1 level warlock dip nets you 1 Level 1 SR/recovery spell slot. That's not much for delaying your paladin aura.

diego

@Adam I look at it the other way around. I'm about 99% sure that once we finish the module my group is currently running (SKT) we won't be continuing with the same characters so I'm ok giving up 9th level spells on my bard (that I wouldn't see anyway) for some increased damage and utility by dipping 3 levels into warlock

@Yuuki I would go at least Warlock 2 so you get 2 recharging slots and some invocations

KorvinStarmast

16:39

I'd love to play my tempest cleric again, he had just gotten to 6th level and was beginning to do neat stuff more often. Laters folks, RL calls.

Adam

As long as everyone as their character sheets, you can always try to start up a new game with the old characters

NautArch

16:50

I love how two separate classes get a spell before the class whose list it's on: Destructive Wave (bard via magical secrets and tempest cleric)

Lord_Gareth

17:03

imgur.com/gallery/q4Oxc

NautArch

@Lord_Gareth that's....beautiful

ShadowKras

I thought i was voting to close this question, but instead it closed as duplicate right away, is this intended behavior?

NautArch

@ShadowKras VTC closed as Duplicate to that link?

ShadowKras

it closed with a link to the duplicated question. The one i linked is a duplicate.

Adam

@ShadowKras Yes. If you have a Gold Badge for a tag, you can close and open questions as dupes with a single vote

ShadowKras

17:10

Ah that must be it then. In the past, it simply cast a vote.

Delioth

@Lord_Gareth I need to build one of these now, thanks for giving me a project a month or so from now

Lord_Gareth

You're welcome. Please transmit all problems you have with it to me so that I can bask in the resulting schadenfreude

2

Delioth

As a bonus, I'll probably be doing it in-sync with when I bother getting a raspPi, so it'll probably hook into that too (for automated/hands-off/consistent control)

Adam

@ShadowKras Just to clear up some of my vagueness, the question has to have a tag that matches your gold badge to autoclose as a dupe. For questions without a matching tag, you cast a vote like normal

ShadowKras

I got it, thanks @Adam

Yuuki

18:10

I should make a Warlock who carries around a pickle jar.

His entire character arc will lead up to this moment:

MadMAxJr

I would invoke dark summoning and necromantic energies to accomplish household tasks.

NautArch

isn't that what Magic Jar is for?

Yuuki

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW JAR OF GREED WORKS?

Zachiel

@Yuuki You play it face down on your trap zone, then you just... uh... really, what is the activation?

Lord_Gareth

@Yuuki It lets you draw two memes from the internet

Yuuki

18:20

@Zachiel Trap Cards activate whenever something is the target of something else, I think.

diego

I don't know much about YGO, but I think since it doesn't seem to have any restrictions on when it can be activated you can do it anytime (after the turn it is set ends)

Yuuki

> if your Trap has been set for at least 1 turn, during your own turn, you can activate it at any time you want

NautArch

jar of greed? deviantart.com/art/Pot-of-Greed-676974197

how do you embed an image here?

diego

@NautArch The upload button next to the send one

nitsua60

just the image url on its own line

Zachiel

18:24

@NautArch lol, is that Greed from FMA?

NautArch

@Zachiel yes yes it is

Chemus

@NautArch What @nitsua60 said.

Zachiel

Anyway you're all wrong, that's the Pot of Greed

NautArch

i really loved that show

Adam

Pretty simple. Set it, and next turn you can activate it to draw one card

MadMAxJr

18:28

So playing a card to get bonus card draw later on?

Adam

Yes. You don't really see it very much outside of chain-draw exodia decks. At least that was the only place I saw it when I stopped playing

Chemus

Never played YGO, but in Mtg, some cards (artifacts) persisted. Do Trap cards do that in YGO?

doppelgreener

19

Q: Why is Pot of Greed banned?

Out of all the Forbidden (banned) cards in Yu-Gi-Oh!, the one that confuses me the most is Pot of Greed. The card effect is simple: Draw 2 cards. I don't see why this is so game-breaking that it has to be banned. You just get cards. What's the big deal? Heck, the anime uses it all the time ...

yu-gi-oh

Adam

@Chemus Continuous trap cards do. You can tell because they have a little infinity icon on the top. for example:

vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/e/e4/…

Chemus

Thanks.

Adam

18:33

Magic/Spell cards can also be continuous

doppelgreener

Yu-Gi-Oh! Legacy of the Duelist | EPIC DUEL!!!

►

GreySage

It's interesting how the most basic effect from MtG or other card games becomes insanely game breaking when you remove the cost of cards

doppelgreener

(warning, swearing)

GreySage

Thinking of Hearthstone, a 3 mana spell to draw 2 cards is just good

Zachiel

@GreySage not that much unless you can capitalize on it.

That 3 crystals are a huge tempo brake, unless you're trying to draw a combo

GreySage

18:40

@Zachiel Exactly my point, it is a good card, but not a universal inclusion, good in every circumstance. Whereas in TGO, a card that does nothing but draw 1 card is banned for being too strong.

Adam

@GreySage Net you one extra card. You do technically draw twice. (I'm sorry but I cant help my pedantic nature)

Zachiel

@GreySage ah, good as in not excellent. Got it.

diego

@Adam Jar of Greed doesn't net you any cards, it just replaces itself (Pot of Greed does draw 2 cards however)

Adam

@diego Last I checked Jar of greed is unlimited

GreySage

@Adam I may be confusing the jar and pot. I don't really care.

Adam

18:46

Yup, Jar of Greed is unlimited.

@doppelgreener That is absolutely fantastic

doppelgreener

@Adam it's so good

Zachiel

@doppelgreener I'm now wondering if collecting all of the items I need to compare into objects won't be a better option than building parallel arrays, but I have no idea about how to compare objects.

GreySage

@Zachiel What language?

doppelgreener

@Zachiel in general you compare objects with x === y to check if they're both exactly the same instance of object. otherwise, you typically assign the objects an equals function that compares the two appropriately in whatever way you choose.

Zachiel

@GreySage JS+JSON

@doppelgreener I'm trying to find the lightest way to get the comparison done

doppelgreener

18:56

@Zachiel what are the objects you're comparing?

Zachiel

most probably simple objects made up of a spell or effect name (to display it in the resulting string), a type of bonus (e.g. luck), a target value (e.g. attack bonus, to know which effects to evalue) and the bonus value (to get which is the max for that type and to get the total bous to the roll)

If not, huge objects with everything that I might ever want to display or to compare (which would be easier because I wouldn't need to create the objects first - those huge objects would be in my JSON file already

GreySage

So: a list of strings basically?

Zachiel

Unless I create by hand all objects divided by kind of bonus, then add the ones I decide to apply with some flags.

Karelzarath

You're heading into custom comparator territory there. Probably easiest to write a method you could overload to do the detailed comparisons.

Zachiel

@Karelzarath I have a function that compares value in a string and gets me the index of the (leftmost) highest modifier)

I'm currently using it to find the highest value and the corresponding description, saved in a paralle array that's been populated parallely, in the same for loop

Karelzarath

19:04

I'm not sure how you're consuming the data, but computing a dictionary keyed by bonus type and target ("attack_luck") and containing the highest bonus might be faster and easier. If the entry doesn't exist, add it. If it does, update if higher.

Zachiel

@Karelzarath Mh, I think we're getting a little bit too technical here. All I've ever been doing in JS was DOM manipulation and related calculations, and building a string to send via AJAX to a PHP mailer.

Your last sentence makes me think the dictionary is somehow automated?

GreySage

@Zachiel Dictionaries are key-value pairs, I suggest looking them up. They aren't too complicated

They're like arrays, but instead of indices they have strings

Karelzarath

And in JS, they're easypeasy to use.

Zachiel

@GreySage Oh, I see, so I'd build indices that combine two things in order to have a single key

I still have the "problem" that there's two things I want to transmit, a value and a description, and ...mhhh, can I have a dictionary where one element is an array?

NautArch

slow day on the stack

Delioth

19:14

@Zachiel You can have a dictionary where the value of a given key is an array (or an object {bonus:x, desc:"Y"})

GreySage

@Zachiel As far as I know the 'value' can be anything, a string, or another dictionary, or something else

Karelzarath

Something like that.

doppelgreener

{ this notation } is a dictionary, aka an object in JavaScript

dictionaries & objects are basically the same thing in JS

GreySage

JSON objects are dictionaries

Yuuki

JSON objects are not, however, thesauruses.

Zachiel

19:18

@doppelgreener wait. I know what JS objects are.

So I also know what dictionaries are, wonderful.

doppelgreener

yup!

Zachiel

And I also know that I can have dictionaries of arrays of dictionaries

GreySage

Huzzah

Zachiel

Which I currently have in my bestiary

doppelgreener

that's right

Zachiel

19:20

The hard thing will be iterating at the right "depth"

Karelzarath

@Zachiel winces I pity whoever has to maintain that code in three months.

ShadowKras

I know what JS objects are. - everything

Zachiel

@Karelzarath well I have a creatures object that's an array of creatures, and each creature is an object that's an array of all things that creature has that might be useful when polymporphing into it.

@Karelzarath That's me.

doppelgreener

Code Review

aw

there we go!

@Zachiel This site might be useful for you to check what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Karelzarath

@doppelgreener Yes. All the yes to that.

doppelgreener

19:23

you can get a lot of excellent feedback on where you're overcomplicating things, where there's a better tool available for the job, etc.

I highly recommend checking parts of your code with them.

ShadowKras

@Zachiel the best way i found to compare objects is to identify them. Each object in the array has to have an unique Id.

Zachiel

@doppelgreener I'd like having at least a vague idea of where I'm going and a skeleton of at least one of the things I'd like to get before trying that.

All is complicated by the fact that I'm working at it from my office during lunch, with no access to USB drives and to D&D manuals.

ShadowKras

Example, in one app im developing, i have two completely different lists of objects, however, i have to compare the objects on list A with the same item on list B, though they are different objects. The Id allows me to create a relationship.

Zachiel

So I just do things in the editor, then do them again hopefully faster when I'm back

doppelgreener

@Zachiel you only really need small code samples with them.

Zachiel

19:26

@ShadowKras uh so you'd have a list with all, say, natural armors, and a list with all Str scores and so on

ShadowKras

No, it's more like. I have one list with all bestiary creatures, identified by an unique Id, and another with an index to find their pages and their CR also identified by the same unique Id.

The second list is much simpler and allows for faster searching.

RollingFeles

Ah, so much warm feelings with all this issues. And then I have to think how to limit heap allocations and copies.

Zachiel

@ShadowKras Ah no, I don't need this second list. I have a list with things like their abilities except Cha and Wis, their natural AC, the description of their special qualities, basically a stripped down SRD that lacks things that are useless to polymiorphing like CR or terrain

Delioth

@Zachiel might it be easier to store things in a database rather than JSON? It usually feels better to have long database rows than it does to have long JSON objects, and databases would be easier to update than raw JSON.

RollingFeles

@Delioth this

Delioth

19:32

Plus a database would do all sorts of performance boosts (caching results; not needing to search through a long, long string; indexing)

RollingFeles

Here "relationship" was already mentioned. Hint: relationship data model. This is great for such kind of things. And quick and easy search by Ids is nice bonus.

Karelzarath

Database? You mean an Excel document?

hides

ShadowKras

@Delioth you can select and update json files with jQuery as easily as writing an update table set field = value where condition = true.

Zachiel

@Delioth I have things like several different attacks for each creature. But I've already had this conversation from the opposide side sso I guess I will just have you pitch against @doppelgreener and see what happens.

RollingFeles

@Delioth I don't think performance is an issue here :)

Delioth

19:33

Well, kind-of. IIRC Excel can export to CSV, and most database backends can import from CSV, though you might have to massage the data into the right format

Zachiel

@Delioth Have I mentioned how this is for a chrome extension and I don't want to reference a file on a resource I own? Basically, I want each user to download the file and be able to work on it, I have no idea if this changes anything.

RollingFeles

@Zachiel can you describe your app or give a link to message with such description?

Delioth

@Zachiel Well, the database shouldn't be any larger than a similar JSON file, and could actually be smaller; though I'm not sure how extensions would work with a database

ShadowKras

@Zachiel for spell effects you can easily create an Id for each spell, then simply list those on the bestiary object. spell_like_abilities: { 89, 3; 103, 1; } (spell with id 83 3/day, spell with id 103 1/day)

RollingFeles

@Delioth if it's downloadable from remote server then backend couldn't care less. If this data is included in extension, then database is out of question.

Delioth

19:38

@Zachiel You could solve this with a one-to-many from the creature to the attacks. To optimize, rather than describing each attack in that, it could be a relation as well (creatureID:80, get anything from attack_table with creature:80, and then fetch from attack_descriptions those chunks)

I think the term is 'join table'

Zachiel

it is a chrome extension that has a back end (in the options page) where you can select from a very large swath of D&D spells, creatures to polymorph into, feats and magic item effects,
in order to create a limited list of things your character can use that fit in a frame injected into a window of an existing site, where you can then finetune your choices (what's active now, what power attack level I have chosen, which creature I'm polymorphed in and using which spell) and can return a list of all effects (new HP value,, AC values, Saves...) in a specific format, a string that the site can …

RollingFeles

one-to-many doesn't require additional table in most cases.

@Zachiel thanks!

Zachiel

@RollingFeles DB is then out of question, I don't want to have to upload the DB on my site, it's a free account that might not have enough monthly bandwidth to let users draw from it that much.

doppelgreener

Since this is a Chrome extension, indexed DB is an option (here's chrome's article on the subject) but you'll probably still have something like JSON data to initialise it with.

Zachiel

e.g. of an attack string
&d20 +19 (BAB, divine power) + 16 (Str: 27 transformation into leonal, 5 manual of gainful exercise, 6 divine power, 4 greater visage of the deity) + 3 (luck, divine favor) -1 (buckler) -19 (power attack)

RollingFeles

19:45

@Zachiel DB shouldn't add much more overhead. There are really small solutions for embedding into apps. The question is: what would be easier and convinient for you and suitable for your resources and desirable solution.

ShadowKras

@Zachiel basically you want to create an object that works as a data table for each ability score on the bestiary entry and a description for that, like: AC: 'Your Armor Class was increased by {0} because of {1}'. correct?

doppelgreener

@Zachiel I suggest starting simple with this, btw. Starting small and simple (pretend it's MiniD&D) will let you experiment with the basic concepts and then extend them.

Zachiel

@RollingFeles yes, that's the question I'm bashing my head into ;)

@doppelgreener yes, I'm starting from getting my AC right, without polymorph, for now.

@ShadowKras exceptr in D&D 3.5e there's "take the greater of every bonus with the same name" and "use this value instead of that" and many other things that really require me to think well about the final result

ShadowKras

You will need to identify those bonuses on their sources. Create a list with each bonus type, and on every source of a bonus you identify it using the Id of that type.

RollingFeles

@Zachiel My head demands some sleep. so I gotta go to bed and won't add much more about technical part. But I have some advice for a begginer(and I suppose you are not used to this kinda things. Forgive if I'm wrong.). I double the "starting small and simple" idea. Follow it in your selection of tools and selection of scale of work. Your main aim is to get results as soon as possible. This will drive you and help you to tackle difficult tasks. Also, work would be much more enjoyable.

ShadowKras

19:52

Example: bonus_type { 0: armor; 1:racial; 2:dodge; 3:luck; }
mage armor { duration; target; components; level; **bonuses** { 0: 4 } } (here 0 is identifying the bonus type from mage armor as *armor bonus*)

Zachiel

hm, I get what you're saying but I fear this would be a real pain. Every time I need to assign the types of each bonus to each spell, wouldn't I need to have the corrispondence table handy?
Right now, I'm just using "ACDodge":"4", and since that object is nested in the "boots of dodging +4" object I know where it's from.

Delioth

@ShadowKras In fact, in this example you wouldn't even need the first chunk (bonus_type), except as documentation- just make sure none of the bonuses are the same ID-type

Zachiel

But yes, the idea of having lists of every item that gives a dodge bonus and then iterate on the list to see which apply looks better

Yuuki

I don't think enumerating bonus type is necessary.

ShadowKras

Yes, but by having a list with all the bonus types, you can easily reference a bonus type by the Id, instead of trying to remember if the name you typed is correct across the entire application.

Yuuki

19:55

Just { 'type': 'luck' } should be fine.

RollingFeles

@ShadowKras you are right, but for small extension it would be easier and efficient to do it by value.

Remembering name is easy. Remembering corresponding id is not.

ShadowKras

@Yuuki whenever you reach the point where you have to compare two bonus types that are of the same type, the name (a string) is a worse approach. You will have to create a series of verifications.

Delioth

@Yuuki That's rather fragile though- typos give new, different bonus types, and other typos give unreadable types ({"Type": "Luck"} is both unreadable and a new bonus type), while enumeration both shortens the data and is typo-resistant

Yuuki

@Delioth The issue with enumeration is that it creates an extra detail to remember. "Oh wait, is luck type 0 or type 3?"

RollingFeles

@Delioth typo-resistant? How about to put 2 or 4 for luck, instead 3 ? :)

GreySage

19:58

make a variable luck = 3, instead of the string 'luck'

ShadowKras

@RollingFeles considering we are talking about D&D and monsters, i dont think this is on the scale i would call "small application".

RollingFeles

Hey, guys. Enumerations with working and comparing real ids is great, but not for human.

Zachiel

@RollingFeles yes, at least JSON is humanly readable

ShadowKras

@Yuuki but the information is consistant across the entire application when indexed.

Delioth

Well, yeah- you can still type the wrong number, but you're not likely to create a new bonus with a typo (you're more liable to make a syntax error there- 3->#)

RollingFeles

19:59

@ShadowKras Well, it would have a lot of data. But it is small app.

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