Morning, all.

@nitsua60 At 5 past midnight, you are precisely correct.

9:07 AM here. Sun is shining for once

top o the morn

@NautArch Bringing out the tough questions this morning, eh?

@Miniman Actually, looking at the current list of room inhabitants, I suppose I might have (accidentally) been! I don't know much about RedRiderX, though. There's the wild-card.

@Adam just had my ring get activated yesterday and was writing it onto my character sheet this morning :)

i'm pretty sure it's a munchkin interpretation, though :)

@NautArch You have a typo but I'm not sure what it's supposed to say "This seems to imply that the difficult terrain you of solid earth" Or I'm misreading something

I don't understand why you're saying that the solid earth/rock becomes rubble/dirt? The second quote doesn't read that way to me at all.

i think what i'm saying is this:

ring says you can move in difficult terrain composed of rubble/rocks/dirt normally

then it says your travel through solid earth is now difficult terrain

yup

but the ring first granted you movement through difficult terrain composed of rock/dirt/rubble as normal

and the ring turned 'solid' earth movement into difficult terrain (which is composed of rock/dirt/rubble?)

which then activates the first ability of turning difficult terrain of rock/dirt/rubble into normal terrain

It's not saying that solid earth (fictional element) becomes difficult terrain (fictional element), it's saying that solid earth (fictional element) now follows difficult terrain rules (game element).

right, but difficult terrain (game element) IS made up of rock/rubble/dirt

No.

it's not?

I see what you're saying

RAW vs RAI is this argument

rock/rubble/dirt is difficult terrain. Not all difficult terrain is rubble/rock/dirt.

Something being difficult terrain doesn't make it rubble.

Ghosts are difficult terrain.

right, but "earth" is made of up rock/rubble/dirt generally

As is slippery surface.

by pure RAW you are right. RAI you would treat solid stone as difficult terrain

@NautArch Nope.

Bedrock. Regolith. Upthrust.

Bedrock isnt rock?

this is why i feel like i'm munchkining this :) I'm fairly certain there is a RAI difference between solid rock and difficult terrain made of rock. But the RAW doesn't have that differentiation.

so would you say moving through a stone wall (either made of stacked stones or something like Wall of Stone) would be normal movement?

By RAW yes. RAI nope

Agreed @Aaron

I'm withdrawing, as the inability to draw a natural-language distinction between "rock I'm trying to walk on which shifts underfoot and is difficult to make my way across" and "extensive, continuous rock which is solid and is impassible" is idiotic.

@nitsua60 It's Raw vs Rai, look at it this way.

RAW doesn't define "rock," so you've got to use, I don't know, English?

Also, the ring does say "You can move in difficult terrain that is composed of rubble, rocks, or dirt as if it were normal terrain."

@nitsua60 I guess my 'interpretation' was that solid/impassible rock is basically turned into the difficult terrain of made of rock

What is rock? The average person is going to look at limestone and say "Rock"

based on that, you don't need to be walking over it to see any benefit

If I saw a living piece of limestone, I would either say "golem" or "earth elemental"

Most people wouldn't even differentiate iron ore as anything other than rock.

@NautArch That's important to describe in the question, then: you believe that the ring changes the terrain (in-fiction), rather than just changing your character's ability to move through that material.

@nitsua60 I will clarify that

Reminds me of Avatar: The Last Airbender where the Earthbenders learned how to bend metal because it was "just refined earth"

In your world, the ring makes it so that a solid expanse of regolith actually fractures and becomes rubble as you approach/touch. In other worlds, you now have the ability to move through still-solid rock, though with much effort.

Either might be reasonable, but I think that should be clearly spelled out.

Otherwise you're assuming everyone else is reading along with your belief that the ring is changing fictional elements (the structure of the rock) rather than just the game element its description specifies (movement rules).

Honestly though, no matter what you define a rock as, I find the "otherwise they wouldn't have distinguished them, and the second quote would just say "You can move through solid earth or rock normally" or else give you a burrowing speed." argument in daze's answer suitable

@Adam I agree that they should have said normal if it was equivalent, but the wording makes it seem like it could be included.

but would you rule passage through a 'wall' of rock/rubble/dirt as normal? Just solid natural rock (like the side of a mountain) would be difficult terrain?

The rule lawyer in me makes me think that I would say, "moving through 1 ft. of solid rock will cost you 2 ft. of movement. "

Though my unofficial answer to the question as a whole is "Ask your DM. He'll either say 'Come on man, you know that isn't how it works.' or 'That's pretty cool. Let's let you move at full speed.'

And going half speed through solid rock doesn't get you very far before you're shunted out

@Adam right, because as a doctrine of statutory construction if there are multiple reasonable interpretations, we should choose the one that doesn't moot other language.

[/rules lawyer]

The spells also aren't nearly as powerful as something like fire elemental command.

Pretty much yes. I agree with you @nitsua60 that if you were trying to follow the rules as best you could, you shouldn't let the PC move at full speed. But If letting them do so sounds cool, or fun, who am I to say that they shouldnt go for it?

Almost seems like there should be an errata to make it normal movement.

@Adam I think the idea is that most metal still had small amounts of the stuff in it they could bend -- it wasn't refined enough to be pure metal. Legend of Korra introduced the idea of metals that had deliberately had those impurities removed so as to be un-bendable even by earthbenders.

But again, how would rule going through the stacked stone walls of a castle or dwelling?

@doppelgreener I never really watched much of Korra, but that's pretty cool! I like that.

@NautArch in your recent edit, I think #3 could still use some explaining. It's not clear to me, reading the post, whether your argument hinges on the idea that the ring makes the solid stone into rubble (re-forming in your wake, I suppose?) or if the ring works because the solid stone is made from stones/rubble (it's sedimentary or metamorphic?).

@NautArch I'd probably say it was solid enough to be considered solid rock. It isn't loose rubble or stone after all. Either there is mortar binding it together, or the stones apply so much friction to themselves that they might as well be solid.

@NautArch Is it solid stone or rubble? Can you move pieces of it by hand without having to break it apart (rubble), or would it take tools to rearrange (solid stone)?

If you threw your friend into it headfirst, would they consider it solid or shifting?

I'll fix that again, but to clarify, i'm not saying it that it turns solid stone into rubble, just that earth is composed of stone, rubble, dirt.

Okay. So because continuous, unbroken regolith is "stone," it's subject to both clauses?

(Not because the ring does a cool rearranging of the stone in front of and behind you.)

I really like the cool rearranging of stone fluff

but i don't think i can use it in my argument :)

@nitsua60 About to go to bed, but there's an easy win for you.

Yeah--I'd never thought of it before.

@NautArch where I think you can't support the "both clauses" argument is the "as if" construction.

I was thinking the same thing with the "as if" part, but I couldn't prove to myself where you were supposed to stop treating the solid rock "as if" it were difficult terrain

i mean, it's pretty clearly difficult terrain unless they made a mistake that was never errata'd

but the wording did make me question it, but I do see a difference between "difficult terrain composed of rocks/dirt/rubble" and "solid earth/rock as difficult terrain"

also, why do I keep typing "dirty" instead of "dirt"

@Adam Aha! Here we go. In the scene where Toph discovers metalbending is possible, she's busy slamming around inside her cage trying to feel out her surroundings. And then she notices this stuff:

That's metal with earthy impurities in it. She couldn't bend the metal, but she could bend those impurities... which forced around the metal they were inside. :)

so...avatar is a rules-lawyering munchkin?

@Adam it's not that Zeiss logically determines something, they baldly assert it.

But they do shout "GREATLY" (twice!), so perhaps that'll be convincing enough for OP?

@doppelgreener That's the exact scene that flashed through my head! It makes sense to me why they could do things like make unbendable metal.

@nitsua60 Yeah, I'm a big softy and didn't want to sound really mean :p

I also wanted to curb his desire to try to edit the answer without doing any math at all.

@Adam I, on the other hand, am running on <6 hrs sleep and seem to be a little punchy today. Sorry, all.

Not that you sound really mean! I didn't mean it like that D:

i'm debating about asking @daze413 to alter the answer or answer it myself. I'd rather see the change from emphasis on "walk" to an emphasis on the difference between solid earth/rock and rocks/dirt/rubble

@NautArch Nah. Toph is just a bad ass

so is my paladin! :P

@Adam No--I didn't read your message that way. I'm just recognizing it, meself. (It's not often I call something "idiotic" here in chat, and that set off a self-red-flag.)

@nitsua60 I didn't take offense - if that means anything :)

I know i'm walking a fine line with this question

@NautArch I'm glad--sorry for the implied insult, though.

(All this is making me think I should take a few hours' before trying to answer a question that seems to require a dive into the vary basics of probability.)

hahaha

no worries, as I said, I didn't really agree with my own interpretation - it just seemed logical.

mornin

This munchkiny stuff reminds me of a game where the players build a perpetual motion machine using a pocket dimension with two sections with different gravity.

but now I don't think it is and I may self-answer because Id on't agree with how @daze413 answered it. I think it's the difference between solid earth/rock and rocks/dirt/rubble (all plural)

would that be uncouth to self-answer now?

@NautArch I wouldn't think so

@NautArch No, you didn't have an answer when you wrote it now you do. The voting system will help sort things out

It might be uncouth if you accept your answer even if your answer was downvoted into oblivion and his got, like, 50 upvotes

@NautArch Not a problem. If the ask question -> clarify question -> receive answer -> clarify own thinking on answer -> post own answer process helps you, that's a win all around.

@nitsua60 It wasn't convincing at all, actually. :|

All that answer did was state the obvious; either it's going to be really awesome or be a complete dud (which I already know to be the case).

And anecdotally, I can explain that to my DM. But it'd be really great if I could get some numbers that show him, factually, that this is a Bad Idea™.

answered - let me know if it's horrifically worded. brain not quite at 100% yet.

@Adam nah, if he honestly thinks his answer is THE answer, then accepting it is fine

@DForck42 I'm definitely wanting to see how the votes turn out

ultimately, it's the same answer, just a different path

If he wants to do that, sure go ahead. I'm just saying that If I came across the question and saw that, I'd probably assume that the OP was selfish or "uncouth" as it were, and then focus more on the answer with a ton of upvotes.

@LegendaryDude working on it now. Numbers crunching.... having a little fun... not getting my work done... not minding that very much....

@NautArch very shortly after discovering she could bend metal (and inventing metalbending) Toph loudly announces "I AM THE GREATEST EARTHBENDER EVER!!" — and it's safe to say she's right.

i'm also about to hit level 12 and i think i'm going to take up sentinel. I'd normally have gotten the Charisma increase, but we use critical fumble rules and I rolled very poorly and my charisma is now locked at 16.

At least it was locked at a decent number

@doppelgreener a buddy of mine has been pushing me hard to watch Korra. Haven't done ityet.

How did a fumble lock your charisma?

@Adam disfiguring scars is the most common, I think

@NautArch it's fun. It's got issues. But it's great and has some of my favorite characters.

@nitsua60 Thanks, I appreciate it. I started working on an anydice and gave up when I knew it would consume most of my morning and I know I have real things I need to work on today.

@LegendaryDude That's comliness, not necessarily charisma. I disagree that those should be so passionately intertwined.

dain bramage. He ruled the 97% roll after the fumble caused a d4 reduction to Int/Wis/Charisma. Half of it was not recoverable and became my new cap. Greater restoration returned me to 16 charisma and 12 wis.

A lot of those issues stem from the fact that Legend of Korra was only supposed to be a one-season miniseries (nothing more), and then the producers wanted a second season (but nothing more than that, for realsies this time you guys), then a third and fourth season. So it had none of the capacity for long term planning that the original series had.

the theory was me hitting myself in the head with my magical maul basically gave me some brain damage. My thought processes (which i would include charisma in) are no longer working as well.

For a show that was supposed to be 1 season, season 1 spends a LOT of time doing nothing.

Season 3 is the only good season

and he included charisma in that. that being said, he'd been itching to try and reduce my charisma for awhile.

And there were things that were planned on the basis there would be no other seasons... and then there were other seasons. Whoops!

@Adam But would you agree that a guy with a big ugly scar across his face is going to be less persuasive?

Depends on the scar

It could be a "I usually give scars like this to other people, but I learned those skills the hard way" scar

Very persuasive

Likewise he will probably more intimidating

less about the way i look and more about the way i can think. hard to be charismatic if you have some brain damage.

@NautArch That's fair, too. I was just making a guess as to the cause.

Charisma is a weird stat anyway

@LegendaryDude Yes, I would, but that would just be disadvantage on persuasion checks. There is even an alternate rule in the DMG for just such a thing. A mundane scar causing charisma reduction itself is just ridiculous. The scar doesn't necessarily make him any less devoted to his god/oath/personal code.

oh definitely, although we do have auto-death if you roll 100% and a 97% is damned close

And as you say, any drain he would get from being less persuasive, would be even offset by being more intimidating

i thought he was dead at 97%, too. so i'll take a -1 to my wisdom and charisma to keep playing him and give him some fun rp

at times i'll roll percentile when remembering something and play the result :)

so far other answer has twice as many votes

Also has been out twice as long

:P

@LegendaryDude a reverse of this situation could also be how to best handle Tiny Animated Objects.

@NautArch Relevant, since I'll be doing that at some point in the future.

i've only used that spell sparingly, but it's a pain in the ass to track HP/attacks for 10 creatures that likely also have advantage (one can use HELP action or if you use flanking rules like we do)

In the long run it averages out to be the same, which I get, but I would rather those averages be visible in a single instance, if you get what I'm saying

All 10 miss right now, next time they all hit

Is the same as 5 hit and 5 miss

In two instances

might not be the same, as if 5 hit they could take out a creature.

@LegendaryDude But "the long run" is a specious argument when combats tend to last 3-4 rounds.

Your GM would be much closer to reality if he eschewed the dice altogether and just removed the expected loss any time you cast an AoE.

@nitsua60 Exactly, that's why I don't like it. The long run doesn't feel good if for my next three spell casts it's a dud. Even if in two weeks from now I'll get three successful AoEs, that's... not fun.

(Answer is developing into a nice little mini-essay, but I've got to run and do a few actual work-things. I'll post what I've got now and immediately-delete, so you can take a look if you like.)

Should be able to polish it off this afternoon.

@LegendaryDude ping me with thoughts, but know I'm afk a few hours now.

(hardest part so far has been deciding whether to use \times or \cdot when reminding everyone of the binomial distribution)

just took my inbox from 1k+ unread down to 16 :-D

and subsubbed from a bunch of stuff

Select all > delete all

@SPavel gmail tends to limit you to selecting 50 at a time

and there's stuff I didnt' want to delete or mark as read

I think there's an option to select all in all pages

Outlook has that, anyway

Very useful

yeah, easier in outlook

have any beta emails gone out yet for dnd beyond?

Gmail does have the option to select all in all pages

@DForck42 I haven't seen anything yet

@DForck42 Oooh forgot that opens today.

Looks like the site was updated, but I haven't heard anything either. Social media looks to be silent as well

D&D Beyond?

Is that like 6th Edition? :P

i like the latest answer to my question from J.A. Streich

@SPavel It's the 5e digital tools

I just got my dndbeyond email saying they're live

@DForck42 Even if you haven't gotten your email, the site is updated now with info

phase 1 is spell listings & their SRD compendium

Also, if you have a twitch account you can apparently just log in and start using it?

so yeah, open beta is open :P

Yep, that worked for me

is it basically a competitor to roll20?

No

It's a rules compenidum, spell lists, monster lists, character sheets, character builders, NPC builder, and campaign manager

Only the compendium/monsters/spells/item lists part is open for the phase 1 beta

dndbeyond.com

that's pretty cool.

So far I am impressed with the responsiveness of the item/monster/spell list filters

So much more useful than any of the other sources I've come across

ah man, someone is using NautArch?!

Man, I wish there was something as nice as this for pathfinder. d20pfsrd isn't nearly this nice looking

Good web design doesn't appeal to Pathfinder's core audience

@LegendaryDude neat

@SPavel lol

@SPavel Sadly I don't think I can argue against that point >.>

it's p neat

just signed up, this is pretty cool

I'm liking it thus far, it's much faster and the filter tools work much better than any of the fan-made stuff I've found online

i dunno, dndmagic is pretty darn good

@NautArch Ah! I hadn't actually seen that one

[looks]

The interface for dndmagic is okay but you can't filter by multiple spell levels it seems

Only one level at a time

Real roleplayers memorize all spells

yeah, it has some limitations but it's pretty darn fast

just starting to play around with the dndbeyond and it seems a little slow/clonky

@SPavel Real roleplayers only use 3 spells :P

/s

real roleplayers only play champion fighters

/s

looks like wizards went a little heavy on form and less on function

make it pretty! grrrrr

I really like the tags though

Real roleplayers play wizards with 9 INT, and can't cast spells

@SPavel And they enjoy it!

(I'm not even kidding - there was a guy on one forum who had an INT 12 archmage, and used that as evidence that his roleplaying was better than everyone else's, and everyone else was optimizing munchkins)

my roleplaying is bigger than your roleplaying

Real Wizards prepare buttloads of spells and only ever cast magic missile

@NautArch might be a bit slow cause new/high load

@Adam hah!

@Adam Unless you're level 1 and you prepare other spells and wish you have magic missle

Then just throw the halfling

real wizards just cast firebolt over and over and over again

Nearly died to a spider last night cause it webbed me. Just about the only cr 1 monster that countered my build and I didn't even get bonus XP for it x.x

In my world, a wizard duel is settled by who has more spell slots. because they'll just keep casting magic missile and shield until they both run out of slots. Then they either beat each other to death with their staves or they just go home

@Adam lol

When the healers out of mana and has a staff of healing orig11.deviantart.net/32e6/f/2014/025/9/9/…

@Adam Well, more spell slots = better wizard, objectively

we had an epic battle yesterday with the bear king from the tome of beasts and minions of bearfolks

@GreySage not necessarily

@DForck42 I think he meant in the context of @Adam 's comment lol

you might be able to sling a bunch of spells, but if you can't use them strategically then you'll lose, hands down

@Aaron ahh, then yes, if combat ends up being that simple

@DForck42 Yes, I was joking

@NautArch Tome of beasts is so awesome. I love pulling as much stuff out of it as I can

Anyone play pathfinder know how to get animate dead before lvl 5? Is a struggling lvl 1 noob necromancer

Find an already animated dead and use command undead to steal it

@Aaron buy a forklift? (I haven't played PF)

Actually at this point I'd settle for an animated broom to act as a 'meat' 'shield'

@SPavel Not a bad idea if i could find any undead. The area we are in is uninhabited though so the chances of finding undead are slim to none

@Adam yeah, he's been loving pulling creatures from that. they're badarse.

@NautArch I just love them because they tend to be just a little tougher than comparable monsters from the MM. Plus, I'm the only one in my group who has the book. So when I pull stuff out of it, they have no idea what the heck it can do

Unfortunately, everybody in that group wants to be a DM, so I don't get many opportunities to actually use anything in there.

"Ancient evil suits you." Not the most common pickup line but apparently effective. Try it on your next date with your local half-eldritch horror.

@Adam yeah, they're much tougher and many have some seriously impactful effects on your PCs. Those are scary.

@Aaron I have no idea what's going on here

@DForck42 It's a funny panel from a comic, I don't think it's canon. The girl is some sort of eldritch monster who eats the bad eldritch monsters and is a teenager

The guy is her father or caretaker and the blond has a crush on her

This was my reaction looking through the Tome of Beasts: youtube.com/watch?v=5hwBgD_gnN8

@Aaron ahh

@LegendaryDude: I am pretty convinced my comment is what you need to tell to your GM to convince him it's a bad idea, but as your question is formulated I can't put it as an answer.

Quick Stephen King question: if you had to name one of the books that you felt embodied that "80's that never was" vibe of kids dealing with horrible things while riding around on bikes, which would it be? It and The Body stand out, and a bit of Eyes of the Dragon; any other kid-centric ones?

@nitsua60 Stand By Me

@LegendaryDude that's The Body

oh yeha

maybe a little bit of Maximum Overdrive?

whoops

More broadly: we're thinking of including a choice on our school (grades 9-12) summer reading list that would scratch the same itch as Stranger Things, which many of our kids are mad over. Any suggestions?

@NautArch needs be a book.

@nitsua60 There is a Goonies novelization. It has good reviews on Amazon.

Also a good chance to introduce members of a younger generation to the Goonies, which is IMO one of the best adventure movies ever made.

@nitsua60 my bad, it's from Night Shift (short story entitled Trucks)

Tommyknockers?

although i didn't really enjoy that book

@nitsua60 Also, Ready Player One. Thematically it's a bit different but it hits on the 70's/ 80's culture nostalgia and is a really great book on its own.

@LegendaryDude althouth that's more nostalgia FOR those of us from the 80s. I'd be somewhat (maybe not?) worried that current kids wouldn't get a lot of the references.

Let the Right One In is set in the 80's and is about a bully who befriends his neighbor (who is also a vampire).

Also made for a pretty cool/creepy Swedish film (watch it on Netflix)

@nitsua60 How are they mad over Stranger Things?

@GreySage I think what was meant was mad as in crazy for, not angry about.

@LegendaryDude That was one of last year's choices. The weekend the kids came back to school another GM and I ran ToH non-stop. We had sheafs of pregen characters, and once a party had died they went back to grab new characters and wait their turn to try again =)

@LegendaryDude Interesting, thanks.

@GreySage Yes--lots of ST binge-watching around here. It's drawn some new kids into the RPG club, which is fun =)

(Doesn't hurt that we're running Strahd this year.)

@nitsua60 This is why I am so excited for Tales from the Yawning Portal.

@LegendaryDude Why?

(I don't doubt, I just mean "can you explain more?")

@nitsua60 Because Tomb of Horrors is in it, and has been updated for 5e.

And I want to put my friends through it.

Does 5e have the tools that 3.5 does to break ToH wide open

Like earthgliding through walls

@LegendaryDude Yeah, I guess I just wonder why you don't run it anyway, why wait for Yawn? I've found pre-3 stuff really easy to run and convert on-the-fly so far.

I don't own it/never run it before, just very aware of its place in the pantheon of great adventures.

Plus I'm picking up TofYP anyway and we're just getting started on SKT under another DM

@SPavel I suppose a high level druid could wild shape into an earth elemental to do that?

@LegendaryDude 5 bucks over at dndclassics, 10 if you want it in print.

ToH was a great module back when gaming was arbitrary and deadly

Not a great fit for modern systems IMO

It's sort of the same issue when DMs try to run, say, murder mysteries, at level 15

(Not trying to talk you out of Yawn, just trying to encourage you to try it yourself.)

"The PCs just raised the dead guy and he told them who did it, why is magic so overpowered"

@SPavel Well, that's a problem of not understanding the level tiers (at least in 5e, anyway)

"The PCs teleported past the Forest of Mildly Dangerous Spiders, why is magic so broken"

@SPavel Then again, even at level 1 you likely have speak with dead so probably it's just that murder mysteries aren't great for D&D

Speak with dead is fairly easy to defeat by mutilating the jaw, isn't it?

Oh nevermind, it's a level 3 spell now

That would be a fun subplot - yeah you can solve the mystery by casting the spell, but you gotta find the jaw first

@SPavel Depends on your definition of mouth: "...The corpse must still have a mouth..."

Take the entire head

@SPavel Yes, but some players are perceptive enough that they will ask why the villain would destroy the mouth/take the head. If it doesn't seem organic, they might draw the conclusion that you knew about their spell choices and just did that to screw their abilities.

does speak with dead require a body?

@Adam that, or the villain didn't want ANYONE casting the spell, duh

The corpse must still have a mouth and can’t be undead. The spell fails if the corpse was the target of this spell within the last 10 days.

@Adam if I wanted to screw with the PCs, I would have the villain steal one letter E, so they could only cast Speak with Dad

You need the corpse, only use once per ten days for 5 questions, and will answer briefly, cryptically, and perhaps falsely. I'm seeing plenty of room for a creative GM.

Dad would complain that the PCs never call

@SPavel Spak with Dad?

@nitsua60 yeah, I was thinking there was room to shenanigans with the spell

Like speak with dead but one E short

Because it was stolen by the villain

Not two E's

That would be too greedy

@Anaphory He did specify one e. He's not being greedy, man.

(sniped)

Ah.

Sorry.

@SPavel :P Of course. I'm just saying that when you plan around player abilities, you need to make the situation look organic, otherwise there is a non-zero chance that your players will not appreciate you arbitrarily blocking off paths. It just breaks the verisimilitude.

Even better - take the head off the corpse, replace it with a different head

I played in a game once where the DM tried to plan around a counterspell, and it looked so botched, it was obvious that it was only one step above just not letting our guys cast counterspell at all.

Also, if the PCs are the only ones that know about speak with dead then that's countering, but it's not exactly a high level spell

We went along with it for the fun, but it did kind of break the immersion something fierce

Counterspelling NPCs are hilarious

It really changes the dynamic

@SPavel It's a level 3 in 5e, which puts it on the same level as fireball.

Not high level but uses a valuable spell slot/spell selection

The better thing is when they counterspell you and your dreams get crushed

Crushing dreams is my number one jam

Though this whole discussion reminds me of this one guy who allowed an enchanter into his game, and then made literally everyone immune to mind-affecting.

I like counterspelling PCs like I like letting a bunch of goblins perch on a ledge and take shortbow-potshots then duck behind cover. It's important (IMO) to force "plan B" on them every once in a while. You can't just set up your tanks and glass cannons exactly where you want them every time....

@nitsua60 By counterspelling PCs do you mean PCs who counterspell or the act of counterspelling a PC?

I mean acting to counterspell a PC. During combat, that is. Not at creation.

=)

It's such a powerful choice that never seeing an opposing spellcaster with counterspell and dispell magic is unbelievable.

It's a tough choice to make though.

There are a lot of good level 3 options.

@Adam we did a one shot, and the bbeg used legendary resistance to counter some stuff...

I think that's the right term

I made an agreement with the bard; he's going to take counterspell and I'm going to take dispel magic.

sucked, SO much, to find out about that

@DForck42 Legendary resistance can be brutal.

@DForck42 Yeah, LR is tough, but there are just so many encounter-enders in a party's bag sometimes....

@LegendaryDude nice, that makes sense. Bard is better at counterspell with jack of all trades.

although i guess dispel magic is same rule?

But it's necessary. Otherwise, "Deathwing, Master of all Dragons and Bringer of Doom" fails a polymorph saving throw and get's turned into "sir squeaker, chipmunk leader of cuteness"

@nitsua60 true

my paladin botched his dispel magic yesterday. DC 11 and i failed :(

he LR'd a polymorph, lol

i attempted to dispel a polymorph!

our cleric got turned into a brown bear

and proceeded to fail his next 3 rounds of savings throws

Shouldn't that be at least a DC 14 check to end the polymorph?

Also, ouch. Poor cleric!

whoops - DC 14

I rolled a 2 anyway :/

@Adam the save would be 8 + ability mod score + prof

for the dispel magic it would be... I forget

10 + spell level

for polymorph, that's 4 at the lowest, which is what I meant :)

@Adam k

right, and the ability check is D20+modifier

Would you guys tell your players what spell the Big Bad was going to cast before giving the PCs a chance to counterspell, or would you make them decide without knowing?

As a corollary to that, would you tell them what level the spell was being cast at if they did know what spell it was?

we generally allow an arcana check

if it's on their spell list

ifit's not, then you gotta guess or try and make the ability check.

@Adam It's only come up once while I was DMing, warlock asked to make an arcana check to identify the spell.

I wouldn't tell them the spell level though, especially if it's being up-cast

@NautArch This is a good rule, will keep in mind for future

@LegendaryDude Yeah, I like how it's worked out. Players feel like they have agency because if it's on their list, they should know it. The Arcana check is for figuring it out quickly. And if they don't know it, they have no way of knowing it so they either upcast the CS and hope, or roll them dice.

@Adam This is why in the first round or two of a legendary monster encounter I almost always have them cast useless crap.

Oh joy, you just counterspelled his invisibility with a 5th level slot.

@LegendaryDude my paladin of vengeance thanks you for delaying your big spells so that he can rain smites down upon you in the meantime.

@NautArch ah, but I said almost always. Really if it's gonna go down like that I just start with the 8th level disintegrate.

hahaha

Hope your paladin didn't dump DEX :P

@NautArch Do you mean class list, or personal spells known?

@GreySage I meant class list, but I could see the case for personal spells. Or set the DC accordingly between the two.

@LegendaryDude now that so many answers have come in to your AoE question I'm losing motivation. I mean, I think mine'll be better, but perhaps that collection is good enough?

@nitsua60 There are some good answers there and they have helped me understand my aversion, but I was looking forward to reading the rest of yours. It's up to you if you want to finish it and answer or not.

@nitsua60 Re Numenera: I was talking about the mechanics of the system. It's really stripped down from the typical RPG fare with very few moving parts.

@LegendaryDude Ah, then, one cannot disappoint =)

I've got a nifty (IMO) trick or two I use in this sort of situation that, I think, would make a novel addition to the collection of answers you're getting. [crunches crunches crunches]