TRPG General Chat

Alex Mitan

16:08

I've had something of a major relief-giving revelation...dumb as it would sound

Zachiel

No players and no game make Zachiel a dull boy. :(

Alex Mitan

I kept thinking of myself, in a GM position, as some sort of supportive grandma shoulder-patting the characters on their adventures... so I felt like I lacked any idea how the world would react to them... but it hit me

I AM the NPCs... I AM the villain and the blacksmith and the whatever

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan You should link to it!

Alex Mitan

All I have to do is play them as my character

Yes, it's so good, hold on, @doppelgreener

drivethrurpg.com/product/117868/A-Spark-in-Fate-Core

I know the NPC thing may seem obvious, but now it feels so much easier... if I WERE those bandits or that shopkeep or librarian... I'd just act in the way that makes the most sense

instead of preparing reactions and plot hooks and whatnot a mile ahead

D&D felt very unimmersive to me as a GM, so it kind of kicked me out of thinking that I, too, am a player

and that I, too, get to RP and interact with stuff

doppelgreener

16:27

@AlexMitan What I prepare as a GM is (a) who's going to be there, (b) why they're there.

If I understand the character and their motivations well enough, I can ad-lib with just about anything my players could throw at me.

Zachiel

@AlexMitan is it because in most D&D styles you're trying to drive characters towards a goal and you can't have NPCs who want to derail your own plot (not many at least)?

doppelgreener

I also prepare some events, but I prepare those as back-up. My players will almost certainly send me in different directions. I'll prepare mechanics for NPCs, and not all of them will see use.

@Zachiel D&D DMs have a very different relationship to the game and the fellow players from a Fate GM to Fate and their players. You're up on a godlike pedestal and you're not allowed to descend into player territories, and you have to know all the things, etc.

Sandwich

Knowing all of the things (especially rules) is important

Most of the problems at a D&D Table are because of rules

doppelgreener

@Sandwich Yeah, to a D&D DM. You have to have all the setpieces avialable and prepared in advance or be very good at winging it.

Sandwich

Having a list of Sandwich NPCs prepared helps when one of the players throws you a curveball though

Alex Mitan

16:45

@Sandwich I was about to ask what a Sandwich NPC is.. but then

Sandwich

You took an arrow to the knee?

Alex Mitan

makes the facial expression of the first man on Earth to taste onion

Zachiel

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener exactly... while I feel like I'm going to need something of a structure to help myself with NPCs or even GM reminders, I feel that the NPCs in Fate are much more human..so to speak

The Oracle

0

Q: Why was my question closed as too broad, unclear, or opinion-based?

There are a good number of questions, especially from users new to the site, that get closed as too broad or opinion-based. This is a post we can link them to for more guidance than what comments can reasonably provide, and more focused than "read the help center". Feel free and add answers/tips ...

Alex Mitan

16:52

it felt like D&D NPCs are actual MMORPG NPCs with a set purpose and lines, and if it didn't fit the "campaign" then I'm screwed

I mean they even had a full mob card at the end of the book! How can I be that? What if I don't want to be that?

It dawned on me 20 minutes or so ago that as a GM I can actually BE a lot of cool things

The huge amount of mechanics kind of left my players cold, and the best moments were still the ones they crafted...

The dice added less of the game-driving, exciting tension, and more of the "oh god, I hope this sex scene doesn't get too explicit" kind of tension when you're watching a movie with your parents around

@doppelgreener did you read Spark?

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan I did not, I may read it tomorrow.

Sandwich

Oh yeah I forgot

1d6

Dice Service

•

Sandwich

Dang! I'm shocked

Though after rolling ones for like two weeks

That's not a bad streak

Alex Mitan

17:57

@Sandwich What's your NPC prep like, Sandwich?

Sandwich

Smashed together at the last second (I kid)

Very layered, piecemeal NPCs

I don't ever really do a complete stat block for an NPC because theres no 100% chance that an NPC I'm going to be using is going to be used for a specific purpose

So I fill out about half of the stat block

Alex Mitan

d20?

Sandwich

Yeah

Alex Mitan

What do you give them that could be used system-agnostically though?

Sandwich

For example

The City guard captain that the PCs were supposed to visit might never have been visited and instead they chose to go to the blacksmith

That Guard captain just became a blacksmith

Hmm. System Agnostic NPCs?

I guess probably the most important thing is actually giving them a character

Something that makes them feel less like game constructs and more like characters

Alex Mitan

18:02

Hm.. alright... thanks :D

Sandwich

Give them a motivation, the means to acquire resources to fuel that motivation, and a reason why thats such a big thing for that NPC

For example, a Druggie has a motivation of getting more drugs, steals to fuel his habit, and is hopelessly addicted to amphetamines

If you have something like that you can predict how that NPC will react in all situations

Which is really all you need for good storytelling

The guard captain has a motivation to provide for and protect his family, trains daily to maintain his edge and keeps his equipment maintained, and only wants to live to make it home to his wife and children

Alex Mitan

Hm, that's interesting, maybe I can tie it in with Fate mechanics well too

Sandwich

The blacksmith seeks to hone his craft and make blades for the king, has recently been stagnating and producing shabby crafts, wants to work for a high station but doesn't want to put the work in to improve

If the PCs come to him and commission a sword, and he finds out that they have a connection to the king he might ask for them to put in a good word for him in exchange for the sword

Alex Mitan

Oo, okay.. let me try a thing

Maybe I can get those into some neat categories and traits

Sandwich

Sure go for it

Alex Mitan

18:16

I'll extract the key phrases from all of those, identify them as things (problems, motivations, potential ways to be swayed_

then reverse the process and make them into categories; rather than Making Swords for the king being a motivation, his motivation is that, and I can extrapolate

Seeks to hone his craft
o motivation
Make blades for the king
o activity/lifestyle
Recently been stagnating
o situation / problem
Wants a promotion
o motivation - why
Doesn’t want to put in the work
o problem/explanation
Comission a sword
o what the players want from him
Connection to the king
o what he responds to
Ask for them to put in a good word
o what he wants from the players

What I got after the first step

I have a system now, and it comes into a neat acronym!

Motivation - hone his craft
Activity - craft swords
Reason - be promoted
Situation - has been stagnating

Offers - well, swords
Responds to - a connection to the king
Expects - a good word

Get it? M.A.R.S. O.R.E.

Thank you very much, @Sandwich!

You are best sandwich!

Now the guardsman:
Motivation - Provide for family
Activity - Guard duty, training
Reason - Keep the city safe
Situation - Not much lately

Offers - ?
Responds to - ?
Expects - ?

The ORE part is optional

Sandwich

18:34

Yes that looks good

Almost exactly what I said, summarized quite succinctly

Alex Mitan

Yes, but with a cute acronym, and it can be extrapolated to make new NPCs quite quickly

Blacksmith ORE Aspect: A good word for a good sword

HadesHerald

18:51

1d20

Dice Service

15

HadesHerald

:P

I just discovered that chat command

Alex Mitan

1d19

HadesHerald

1d8

Dice Service

6

HadesHerald

18:54

1d12

Dice Service

3

HadesHerald

1d10

Dice Service

10

HadesHerald

I think it may only be standard dice

ROL A D6

Sandwich

Covers everything up to d20 yes

Theres a room for testing dice commands though

HadesHerald

19:02

oh really?

Sandwich

Dice roller & formatting tests playgr…

The roller supports: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20. You can roll ...

Alex Mitan

19:14

What does the "Set X stat Y" do in the 'roller?

Sandwich

It just means you can change out the number of die

Set 1 stat 6 is 1d6

set 9 stat 20 is 9d20

Alex Mitan

so what use does it have?

intead of just saying 9d20

Sandwich

Its just dice context

Alex Mitan

Oh, so it has no mechanical impact?

Sandwich

You can type 1d to roll a d6

It defaults to 6

Not to my knowledge no

Bankuei

19:21

@Sandwich yep that's pretty much how I run my NPCs in most the games I play - motivations: bankuei.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/…

I also find it's good to give them a twist or secondary motivation as well: bankuei.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/improvising-npcs-x-but-y

Alex Mitan

Oh, hello! slight celebrity in here feeling

Mostly since I've compulsively read a huge amount of good RPG material ever since my first sessions fell apart

Sandwich

Thats just the way I create my NPCs, its good to have a lot of layers

Because not all of them will be important to the sandwich

Bankuei

Yeah, I usually find secondary characters work nice with just an extra touch. Apocalypse World's "characters aren't that complicated" + "Make them real" gets the same effect too

Alex Mitan

I'm messing around with my new little system, acronymising it cutely if I can, for it is my duty to have something like MARS ORE RIGS at the end

Sandwich

But when you get right down to it the most important thing is the motivation, the means to achieve it, and the reasons for doing so

Thats the bread, the meat, and the condiment

Alex Mitan

19:24

Motivation
Activity
Reason
Situation

Offers
Responds to
Expects

Response
Irritation (negative response to)
Glad (needs work, means positive response)
Strangeness

Sandwich

You cant have a sandwich without bread, you cant have a character without motivation

Bankuei

@Alex

Alex Mitan

Yes?

Bankuei

@AlexMitan is that the mapping for your NPCs or all characters in your system?

(sorry, hit return too quick)

Alex Mitan

It was just something I was messing around with to maybe help with my first game... Sandwich here gave me a couple of short NPC descriptions, I copied them, highlighted the keywords, such as "makes swords" or "things have been stagnating", categorised them, then used the categories

There was a small discussion right above

Bankuei

19:27

Ah, ok. Right now I just started a Sorcerer game and I've been finding it's useful to have enough flags/levers but not so many it's hard to manage in play.

Burning Wheel does a scaling - PCs get 3-4 Beliefs, most NPCs only get 1.

I try to bring my prep as low as possible since my energy is at a premium these days.

Alex Mitan

I'm very into Fate, I'll have my game next week, it's not a prep-heavy game anyway, but multiple things can be compressed into an Aspect, as it usually should be

Bankuei

Yep. I find people have a better time w/Fate when they think of Aspects as broader concepts and not a giant list.

Heroquest suffers sometimes from going into giant lists of narrow traits instead of defining larger, broader ideas

Alex Mitan

People think of them as a giant list?

Bankuei

19:44

I've seen some FATE games where the characters have 10-20 Aspects going on, and the aspects are narrow

You can see the push in the last 5 years has been for less Aspects with broader use

"Good at punching" "Good at kicking" "Can jump a lot" "Fast on their feet"

"So... basically 'Martial Arts Master'?"

there's also a level of creative fatigue in terms of creating enough Aspects once you get too many, and a mental load in juggling them all in play

Alex Mitan

Reminds me of this process from Walking Mind

Hold on, sorry, I have to be off for a tiny bit

Bankuei

Yeah, I think it's more to do with the "neat toy!" factor when people first get into FATE or similar games. Because anything can be turned into an Aspect, they make a ton of them out of excitement and assume more = better play.

You can see people do the same thing with exception based rules when they make OSR style D&D classes or monsters

I'm about to grab lunch myself

Shalvenay

20:09

hey @Bankuei

@Bankuei -- you mind if we chat some in the Not a Bar once you get back from lunch?

Alex Mitan

Oh hi @Pixie

Pixie

@AlexMitan Hey!

Alex Mitan

I'm too tired to try to concretely put my finger on a bulleted list of reasons why, but seeing freeform RP really opened up my eyes and helped me with stuff

Pixie

I'm glad it helped. :o

Alex Mitan

Besw, Doppelgreener, the others, opened up my eyes themselves when they said that Fate works well as freeform support, and I got it

but I didn't actually know what freeform was like

It really helped, so thank you very much, Pix :D

Pixie

20:30

Actual play examples can be helpful like that. :,D Granted, the kind of casual chat freeform I do may be a slightly better example of the kind of play you're likely to be doing in Fate. Generally with quicker, shorter posts, and live, of course. Sometimes a bit less formalized.

Alex Mitan

20:46

Naturally, that's why I'd imagine a system-based RPG by-post would be strange, where the resolution, rather than RP, not only takes quite a bit of time, but requires an immediate response and bargaining

Bargaining especially, in things like Fate

Either way, thank you :)

I'm really going to need to drive the point across that "the mechanics will come up when they need to", instead of "hold your dice close, I'll try to fast-forward to the next roll where something happens"

That I may have fallen for at first

Pixie

People actually do system-based games by post, but I've never done it myself. I definitely think for a system-based game that I wouldn't like it as much as real time. But for that type of freeform, where the collaborative writing aspect is important, forums are great.

Shalvenay