TRPG General Chat

MadMAxJr

14:00

Sadly Mark Hamil will never voice my badguys at a table. :(

BESW

> The wit of Wexel the Wet was so sharp, the elven kingdom of Amarant had his tongue peace-bonded whenever he visited.
> Most famous satirists are wee folk, but Wexel was a dwarf who chose to leave his dwarfholt and travel across the open land as a bard. This is how he became Wexel "the Wet"--he got rained on a lot more than the average dwarf.
> Sadly, Wexel's wit turned toward puns in his old age. At the time puns were an acceptable form of joke, but Wexel's were some of the worst anyone had ever heard.

(click through for the rest.)

MadMAxJr

Heck of a fate.

BESW

Wexel is an unused remnant of my very early explorations into using holidays and calendars not just to mark the passage of time, but as a form of okapi's butt.

Lord_Gareth

14:16

@Miniman COME FORTH, MORTAL THING

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Time for the throwdown?

Lord_Gareth

Well it would be IF THE DM HAD GOTTEN ME HIS CAMPAIGN LOGS

But we can have a preliminary

After I cut him repeatedly with a chainsaw

In any event

@MadMAxJr I SUMMON THEE

MadMAxJr

@Lord_Gareth What'cha need?

Lord_Gareth

Herd u were talkin' crap m8

(Yes I waited seven hours to be able to repost that at the correct person)

MadMAxJr

I expressed concern over how to weigh your statements and opinions.

Lord_Gareth

14:21

Aye I'm not taking it that seriously or I would have, y'know. Spelled my accusation in a human language.

But it's something I'd like to actually address, for many, many reasons, but chief among them being that in order to do my job I have to understand PF.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@BESW This guy:

Miniman

Now that's a REAL master

MadMAxJr

@Lord_Gareth If you could give me a brief summary of your history with d20-derived systems, I would find that helpful.

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith That would be Anthony Ainley as the Master, yes.

@Lord_Gareth Unfortunately, your reputation as a Demon of Drama, a Hellion of Hyperbole, and an Elder Evil of Exaggeration doesn't help your presentation a lot when you want to be taken seriously.

You chew more scenery than the Eric Roberts version of the Master.

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr Grew up in 2e, from age 7 to age 14 or so. Played it off-and-on until age 16 while slowly transitioning through into 3.0 and then 3.5 because my friends played it. Entered the world of system mastery the hard way, losing bits of my innocence one painful, bloody strip at a time either through play or through feedback on my homebrew content.

Participated in the Pathfinder beta, became one of the many victims of how much SKR hates critique when I got banned from Paizo's fledgling forums the first time.

Tracked Pathfinder's development out of spite for a few years, then started mostly ignoring it as a game except for excerpts from the designers' more amusing rants and public mistakes, of which there were many.

MadMAxJr

14:28

2e, so started late 80s, early 90s?

Lord_Gareth

Late 90s, played with a holdover group DMed by my dad on the cusp of the 3.0 transition

Zachiel

@BESW !

Joshua Aslan Smith

Aww yeah nyssa's father's body taken over

Lord_Gareth

In any event, I get hired by Dreamscarred Press, initially to help with the Path of War project. Things moved rapidly from there, but that's where I began in-depth research into Pathfinder's specific changes from 3.5's skeleton.

From PoW I got sidelined into their Psionic Bestiary project (I'm listed as a co-author for the book at this point, there was a lot of re-writing), had to teach myself psionics from the ground up.

As well as delve deep into the world of PF's 1st and 3rd party published monsters and antagonists

Bossman bounced me from there, once it was finished, into a Wilder supplement that's just about ready for publishing, pending edits for beta feedback

That got interrupted so I could work on a supplement we needed to pull from the shelves that expands race-based content

MadMAxJr

Helpful context for your particularly charged statements, thanks.

Lord_Gareth

14:34

Which meant learning (and then rejecting because black gods of hell are you kidding me) Paizo's race point system

@MadMAxJr The TL;DR is that Pathfinder's PR group tries very hard to pretend that it's not 3.5 with a bunch of house rules, when it is in fact just 3.5 with a bunch of house rules. None of its unique content changed the meta of its game vs. the meta of 3.5 except to widen the caster vs. martial/monster gap that already existed.

BESW

@MadMAxJr Gareth's facts are usually pretty spot-on, once you wade through the rivers of bile and vitriol.

4

Lord_Gareth

Most of learning Pathfinder, design-wise, has been learning how to dance around and through various community prejudices and attitudes so I can still produce quality work without triggering attack mode.

Miniman

@BESW To be fair, he admits his prejudices freely, which is really all you can hope for.

Lord_Gareth

The rest has been learning the little changes they made, which range from small things to things that look small but are actually gigantic, hideously needless headaches that spawned themselves from some forsaken pit of Hell.

For example, Paizo got rid of HD = Character Level

I have no idea why they did this because all it did was make monster design harder

BESW

@Miniman Mmm. His frustration is not unjustified, but if he could keep the volume and personal attack turned down a bit he'd be taken more seriously and not have to offer his credentials so often.

(And the chat would be a calmer place.)

Miniman

14:40

@BESW I wasn't trying to justify. I just meant that, for example, if I tell you to ignore everything I say about 4e (or MMORPGs) because of my personal prejudices, it goes some way towards making up for the crap I subsequently come out with.

Lord_Gareth

It also made designing monster-enabled prestige classes so much harder.

Sweet Asmodeus the headaches.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

Saffron

Is it me or you are talking about totally different things?

I'm lost

MadMAxJr

@BESW This was what I was trying to determine.

Saffron

/me go back to sleep

Mourdos

14:43

Roll to fall asleep :P

MadMAxJr

@Lord_Gareth Apologies, but I was not trying to start a witch hunt. As expressed in the other room, you wish to have one of the moderators removed, so I wanted a better understanding of your contributions and interactions with the site. Often you make particularly charged statements in chat or on a question, so I really needed more information to get a bigger picture.

Lord_Gareth

@Saffron There was a conversation about my opinions of PF. There's a side-conversation in why I'm always full of the raeg.

Saffron

@Lord_Gareth Oh wow they were talking about you

There's some drama goin' on here m'lady !

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr My issues with Myx are rooted in how he chooses to express his opinions over Pathfinder and how he treats other opinions when he has power, not in the opinions themselves. But that's for the bar.

BESW

15:28

I was just reminded of my favourite conversation from a book I didn't actually like very much:

> "These kids make 'Lord of the Flies' look like 'Pollyanna.'"
> "YOU read 'Pollyanna?'"
> "'Pollyanna' was a book?"

BESW

15:39

→ 20 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

→ 1 message moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

KRyan

@BESW Sorry, looked like the convo was happening here for some reason

BESW

It was. I was eyeballing it for getting moved, then it seemed to have tapered off.

MadMAxJr

Gareth pinged me here, so I responded.

KRyan

@MadMAxJr well, that initial conversation was probably fine here

but it was a lead-in to evaluating the topic of the Bar

BESW

Aye. If you'll notice, I moved everything after it was suggested that the conversation get moved to the NAB.

Basically, there are a number of people who strongly value the General Chat's lack of drama and bile. If something gets heated or uncomfortable for the general population, it should be taken to a side room--whether it's religion, or sex, or bad blood, or whatever.

I've seen a year and a half of conversations on that topic and have learned to head them off at the pass.

Saffron

15:47

Isn't this chat supposed to be 18- able ?

Miniman

@Saffron Not really the point at issue

Saffron

And even the whole site

@Miniman yes, it's a side question, since BESW mentioned some 18+ topics

MadMAxJr

It's no excuse to avoid being civil.

BESW

Stack Exchange is 13-and-up.

Saffron

submitted to Us juridiction I suppose?

I'm glad I learned that before I let my mind slip to more darkened debates.

BESW

15:50

When you make your first SE account, you have to promise you're 13 or over.

KRyan

> Interviewer: What's the weirdest thing a fan has every gotten you?
> Peter Davison: Oh, I don't know...
> Audience member: *A granddaughter!*
> pic of David Tennant laughing, "not even sorry"

2

Saffron

I made that account some time ago, and my memory is not what it used to be unfortunately

BESW

Ah, yes, David Tennant. The Doctor actor whose previous appearance in the franchise was an uncredited voice role he begged for when he heard they were recording in the same studio he was working at.

And people gave Capaldi a hard time for his fan letter.

KRyan

I think it's awesome to see fans get into the show

John Barrowman was kind of adorable about it

Joshua Aslan Smith

@KRyan hahahaha

BESW

15:54

Isn't "being adorable" Barrowman's stock in trade?

Joshua Aslan Smith

As much as my dislike of Tennant's Who, I like him as a person/actor

MadMAxJr

Tennant is the only Doctor I know. I only got as far as the Weeping Angels one.

Lord_Gareth

I arise again in the glory of darkness etc so forth

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think Tennant has the makings of a great actor, but he doesn't have the necessary control yet. He slips in and out of it involuntarily mid-scene.

@Lord_Gareth And immediately retreat at the name of the Doctor.

Lord_Gareth

[Recoils, flees to the bar]

Accursed Whoooviaaaaannnsssss

user61230

15:58

(Side note: Ahahaha Toad the Wet Sprocket replied to me, though I'm not sure how they found mine)

Quentin

@BESW He got a number of credited roles in Doctor Who with BF before getting the big job. bigfinish.com/releases/v/sympathy-for-the-devil-363 is excellent.

BESW

@Quentin Fair enough. As much as I like BF audio, it's got a place slightly lower down in what passes for DW canon in my head.

Quentin

@BESW Oh, did he have an uncredited telly role then?

BESW

Whereas when he begged the cameo in Shalka, it was going to be the official as-close-to-canon-as-DW-ever-gets Ninth Doctor.

Quentin

Ahhh. Didn't know he was in that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:00

@Lord_Gareth Im only an old who fan and despise the term whovaian as a result

BESW

He's one of the guards who gets attacked by the scream-zombies.

Quentin

@BESW Ahhh

BESW

It's, like, one line and a scream.

(The Shalka Doctor is my favourite Doctor. Alas.)

Lord_Gareth

@JoshuaAslanSmith I lack any meaningful comprehension of the difference.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Lord_Gareth Old who had low production values of scifi pre 1990s some truly goofy scripts mixed in with deadly serious ones and a whole bunch of other things going on.

new who is decidedly different in tone for the most part

New who being everything from the restart of the series a few years ago

Lord_Gareth

16:04

Eh. I don't like schizophrenic tones.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

Douglas Addams wrote a few storylines

KRyan

later all

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith I say, what a wonderful butler! He's so violent!

Quentin

@BESW I haven't watched it in years. I must get the DVD out of the shinkwrap and rewatch it. Fantastic Master IIRC.

@BESW Ah. City of Death. One of the very best.

I'd have liked to see more Duggin, but he only appears in that and one of the novels.

BESW

And.... ah, which was the one with "Oh, look! Rocks!"?

That line. Delivered by Baker. Always cracks me up.

(Baker's not even in my top five Doctors, but he definitely had some great moments.)

Quentin

16:08

@BESW Don't know that one off the top of my head… and given how many episodes were filmed in quarries it is hard to narrow down :)

BESW

"Destiny of the Daleks."

Silly story, really showcased how introducing Davros neutered the Daleks' narrative punch.

Quentin

Both Davros and the Daleks tend to have better stories when they aren't together

BESW

(Shalka, then Two/Seven, Three/Five/Eight/Nine, One/Four/Eleven, Six, Ten.)

Joshua Aslan Smith

Him offering jelly babies to just about everyone, including the villains is one of my favorite character traits.

BESW

I haven't placed Capaldi or Hurt yet...

Quentin

16:12

That's a good order. Six shoots up the rankings when he gets to play on audio though. His TV scripts were terrible (as were the early ones for Seven).

BESW

True.

I haven't gotten much of Six's audio, but what I have heard was nice.

(Warth is probably in with 1/4/11, and Capaldi--we'll see. So far I'm enjoying him and hoping Moffat won't get in the way of that for me.)

Quentin

The best arc is Six + Charlie, which opens with a lovely reverse of the Peter->Colin regeneration scene. [The TARDIS lands on the desert island where Charlie is stranded after seeing 8 "die"]. Charlie: Doctor? 6: Yes? Charlie: I was expecting someone else.

BESW

Duly noted.

Audio stories are work for me to listen to attentively, so I haven't heard much at all.

I did enjoy Zagreus!

...and incorporated a lot of his themes into a D&D campaign.

Quentin

I have an hour long commute, so I tend to listen to them while staring at the scenery passing by on the train.

BESW

Fair enough.

Oh, man, it's almost 230am. Sleeeeep.

Quentin

16:19

Not that I've managed to listen to much this week since my relisten to the Bernice Summerfield series has hit Janes Kane and the End of the World (which is a fantastic piece of drama but has a really depressing theme) and I keep being distracted by thoughts of my Tyranny of the Giant Space Flumphs for 5th edition Spelljammer plot.

Lord_Gareth

Poor flumphs

No one takes them seriously

MadMAxJr

Those were the flatulent space mushrooms, right?

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr And this is precisely why they don't get taken seriously, yes :p

MadMAxJr

That highly unpopular company previously mentioned put them in a book of terrible monsters they attempted to re-write as interesting, usable monsters.

Others were basically a mummy covered in glue, and living tree stump that puppets a bunny on top of it.

They also attempted to redeem the flumphs

Lord_Gareth

3

@MadMAxJr I can admire the attempt while still saying that there are some things that are just not able to be saved.

MadMAxJr

16:31

It's the d20 equivalent of taking childrens drawings and having an experienced artist recreate the same drawing.

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Lord_Gareth OR........................................

Lord_Gareth

@JoshuaAslanSmith Or pyramids are actually the original wizard towers and our full caster overgods built them before they ascended to a higher plane of reality

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

MadMAxJr

I preferred the series.

Joshua Aslan Smith

so my wife resisted getting into Stargate because "it was too nerdy" after her getting into trek

MadMAxJr

16:33

Colonel O'Neil logic: They are ugly aliens, therefore evil aliens. START SHOOTING.

Joshua Aslan Smith

but she saw a couple eps and was like well now I want to watch it

so we started with the movie

Lord_Gareth

But the movie was so bad

Joshua Aslan Smith

and she thought the premise was quite funny in retrospect with "It was aliens meme etc"

I love the movie

Lord_Gareth

Especially the guy playing O'Neill my god

Joshua Aslan Smith

I also love the series

Lord_Gareth

16:34

I never thought I'd see an actor more wooden than Hayden Christensen

Part of my soul died

Joshua Aslan Smith

The movie is trying to be 2 different genre flicks at the same time

Lord_Gareth

(Loved the series though)

MadMAxJr

Kurt Russell isn't a man of words and the guns he carries speak very poor English.

Joshua Aslan Smith

its trying to be the classic adventure film AND the hardcore sci-fi film at the same time and its playing to both genres' conventions

Lord_Gareth

That doesn't justify the movie's flaws, though. That whole attitude in general is weird.

"You see, X is trying to be Y and Z, so it's going to have some difficulties." If the difficulties are not surmountable maybe it should not have been done

MadMAxJr

16:38

It's still fun, even with it's flaws.

If you want to pick it apart, why does an alien race with mastery of energy weapons still only use metallic plate armor against the firearms of humanity?

(Thor had a really good comment on this in the series.)

Lord_Gareth

My issues with the film boil down to:

1. The lead actor is terrible

2. See 1

3. See 1

Joshua Aslan Smith

Whos the lead?

Honestly Daniel Jackson is the main character

Lord_Gareth

4. The writing is nowhere near as tight as the series ended up being

MadMAxJr

I can't finish your list, it's an infinite loop.

Joshua Aslan Smith

They try to set it up as both jack and daniel but its clearly daniel

also theres ever only 1 main character

MadMAxJr

16:40

Jack is mostly there to shoot things.

He's the fighter, skill selection is not his strong suit.

Lord_Gareth

Yeah, that's bad.

The O'Neill you get to know in the series is, y'know

A human being

Joshua Aslan Smith

I think its unfair to compare the movie to later seasons of SG1

because season 1 is pretty bad

MadMAxJr

I did enjoy it while it was still on Showtime, because there weren't contrived plot pauses for commercial breaks.

Joshua Aslan Smith

SG1 got to have an incredible run time to work over these issues of plot and character

Lord_Gareth

Leeg nao

MadMAxJr

16:44

I briefly recall from my hobby store days there being a licensed SG-1 RPG, then a few of my regulars being incredibly upset over the company losing the license.

Joshua Aslan Smith

probably wasnt good

All non show releated stuff has been pretty bad though I wish the MMO had gotten made

had some potential

MadMAxJr

I had some concern over how the FN-P90, a weapon intended for close range engagements, was issued to troops deploying to planets with wide open fields.

Then again the series is what made me go 'What is that gun?' to begin with.

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:16

5.7mm round has rifle round profile ballistics vs. the pistol rounds commonly used in SMGs

MadMAxJr

So basically an assault rifle design in SMG profile then?

The barrel does run almost the length of the thing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I dont think its a full on bullpup

FN 5.7×28mm

The FN 5.7×28mm is a small-caliber, high-velocity cartridge designed and manufactured by FN Herstal in Belgium. It is a bottlenecked centerfire cartridge that is somewhat similar to the .22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet. The 5.7×28mm was developed in conjunction with the FN P90 personal defense weapon (PDW) and FN Five-seven pistol, in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. The tests compared the relative...

let me clarify

it does not have the length that a rifle in bullpup configuration would have

it is a bullpup design

barrel is 10.4 inches

longer than a UMP or an HK or the similar type of SMG

its interesting that the wiki article for the FN P90 classifies it as a PDW though, since that category of firearms didnt exist and its very large to other weapons that typify the PDW

MadMAxJr

Interesting design.

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:31

Hmmm it looks like its considered a PDW because of the ballistics of the round which makes sense

MadMAxJr

The other one that caught my interest, not SG-1 related, was the Calico with the helix ammo storage.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the 5.7 in a military and police setting is meant to be used as an AP round

so from a operations standpoint for SG-1 makes total sense, you may or may not be fighting indoors or ourtdoors and jaffa wear heavy metal armor

MadMAxJr

For SG-1 that makes sense, yeah.

Tight-quarters portable AP weapon.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I remember seeing m249s a lot though whenever there is another SG team around

they seem to be outfitted closer to a standard infantry team model

MadMAxJr

Which takes me back to my other question, "Why are Jaffa using plate armor against humanity all through the series?" You'd think they'd work more with those energy fields on their gliders.

SG-1 teams struck me as kind of a Force Recon role, when they're going to new planets.

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:34

Earth technology in Stargate

In the Stargate fictional universe, the humans of Earth have developed many advanced technologies based on what SG teams have brought back from trips to other planets through the Stargate. Earth has also benefitted from technical knowledge provided by friendly alien races, such as the Asgard and the Tok'ra. == Real or semi-real technology == The producers of Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis collaborate closely with the United States Air Force. The USAF is portrayed in a positive light in the series, and as a result, the franchise gets access to USAF weaponry and fighter jets. The Oregon Air...

MadMAxJr

Oh wow there's an article for that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

so basically everyone but SG-1 seems to use m4 and m16 platform rifles with military shotguns and LMGs

SG-1 is a good example of in vogue military tech of the late 90s and early 00s though

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:53

let the downvotes begin!

MadMAxJr

?

Joshua Aslan Smith

just some subpar answers

Ive learned to stop worrying and love the downvote

mattdm

19:13

This does seem to be a very downvotey Stack Exchnage site — lots of apparent downvotes for "I disagree" as opposed to reserving it for "actually wrong". *shrug*

user61230

Huh, I've had quite the opposite experience here, @mattdm

mattdm

@Emrakul It's my first impression, at least, as compared to the Photography SE for example.

MadMAxJr

"I disagree", "This is wrong", "I don't particularly like you being here in general", "I meant to downvote someone else", and "This is just plain bad" seem to be valid uses.

user61230

Fair enough, and I don't disagree. (Hard to disagree with someone's impressions!)

mattdm

Heh. :)

user61230

19:16

But, well, not too long ago:

user61230

18

Q: Why are voting habits so different on RPG.SE in comparison to other SE sites?

I've been wondering about this, as I have since I first arrived here all those centuries ago. Voting habits on RPG.SE are very different than on other StackExchange sites. Very rarely do we see downvotes, and when we do, they are taken very seriously - to a degree I am still having trouble adap...

mattdm

@Emrakul Interesting. Maybe I'm just more wrong than I think. :)

user61230

Possibly, but also possibly not. It's been a while, and I might not (read: probably wouldn't) have personally noticed the change.

mattdm

I don't think it's just my answers, though -- I saw it on a couple of others.

user61230

Hmm... how so?

mattdm

19:20

Well I don't have enough rep to actually see the upvotes and downvotes yet... I should probably come back when I have more evidence. I saw something the other night with a -1 that surprised me, though.

can't remember what. just talking. :)

user61230

Fair enough. Just curious! It'd be an interesting changing trend.

wax eagle

one thing I have noticed here is that we have a lot of voting, both up and down. and that's good. But yeah, some downvotes show up for weird reasons

mattdm

One could probably use data.stackexchange.com to plot some trends

for my own answers, I'm not offended, but am puzzled by a couple of downvotes I got with no explanation

rpg.stackexchange.com/a/46607/904 for example

wax eagle

I'll note that 5e is an odd space right now for a variety of reasons

user61230

RPG.SE is seeing about 1600-1700 answer votes per week

user61230

19:26

Closer to 2200-2400 if you include question votes

mattdm

Or rpg.stackexchange.com/a/46930/904, which is 4E — here, I presume that someone strongly believes that it's completely wrong for skills to ever influence players, or something. But really, that could be completely fine for some ways of playing, and if the group is all on board with it....

user61230

Wow, RPG.SE's seen a serious spike in activity lately

mattdm

@Emrakul well, that's good!

wax eagle

@Emrakul seems like something big is going on in RPGs...can't be sure what... <_< >_> -_-

4

maybe something is making the headlines...or national newspapers...maybe someone is releasing a big new game..who knows...

mattdm

That is what rekindled my interest :)

user61230

19:29

Huh. So the push to make 5e a success for RPG.SE worked, then.

wax eagle

@Emrakul well, in many ways it was already going to be a big deal for us

we're just riding the wave of WOTC's apparent marketing success

MadMAxJr

Surprised we haven't had more meta posts of, "This site needs to encourage games that aren't 5E!" like when 4E washed the front page.

wax eagle

@MadMAxJr we'll get there :). Part of it is that it hasn't drowned out other games completely

MadMAxJr

I recall getting downvoted to death for having the audacity to say CthulthuTech was an 'indie' RPG.

wax eagle

still lots of 3.PF, 4e and minor systems going strong

MadMAxJr

19:33

If a game penned by three guys who got drunk watching Robotech isn't Indie, I'm not sure what is. Then again they did have a notable publisher at the time, Catalyst.

Until Catalyst had some money go missing, and they dropped Catalyst like a bad habit.

wax eagle

tbh...indie for RPGs should basically be....not D&D...

MadMAxJr

Indie RPGs are those oddball niche games that collected dust on our back shelf because their target audience was small or didn't exist in Oklahoma.

wax eagle

yeah....those games benefit greatly from the digital pub revolution

MadMAxJr

Despite that, I still love my ancient little $10 copy of 'Ninja Burger' on yellow and white copy-paper.

"Ninja only have 20 skills. That is all ninja know. You may try to convince the host of new applications for old skills, such as driving using 'horsemanship'."

wax eagle

heh, I'm not sure I have a print copy of anything Indie...but I'm really new to RPGs

(IIRC the only thing I have a hard copy of that isn't D&D 4 or 5 is a munchkin d20 supplement, and a couple of cortex games)

user61230

19:37

Truth is, so few things we call indie are truly independently developed

MadMAxJr

From what I thumbed through on the shelves during the 3.0/3.5 days, the indie games fell into two camps. "Great rule system, atrocious fluff." "Lots of interesting fluff, rule system has weaknesses/doesn't fit the theme."

wax eagle

@mattdm the one thing you might notice about answer voting is that people will downvote answers they think are wrong (or simply bad advice) here. Sometimes that's a subjective decision, I'm looking at your 5e answer you linked, and could see a downvote for feeling like dodge shouldn't be usable until combat starts...if that makes sense. (some of that may come from a 4e POV where ready before combat was prohibited)

mattdm

@waxeagle Yeah possibly. I've made an edit to make that all more clear.

wax eagle

yeah, I saw that. Much better now

Part of the problem I think we'll see for a while with 5e is that we have at least 2 very large, and very opinionated sections of the RPG populace converging on it. The 3.PF crowd who see it through that lens, and the 4e crowd who see it through that lens. We'll see how that goes as we continue

mattdm

As a general fan of both, I think the 4E people are in for a bigger shock. :)

There are a lot of things which were carefully defined and delineated which are now intentionally subjective.

MadMAxJr

19:53

Because we didn't do the same thing with 4E. :P

One of my players believes 4E was written by programmers who just wanted a battle engine that ran smoothly and to hand-wave actual role-play.

You /can/ roleplay in 4E, it just doesn't bolt a ton of rules and constraints onto it, compared to my experience in other systems.

mattdm

I think the 4E design assumes that the roleplaying would naturally be foremost in groups that wanted that, and the closest-matching rules used to model whatever was described.

Anyway: I'm off to run a first (5E) game for my 7 and 9 year old. We'll see how it goes. :)

MadMAxJr

MATT, THE GOBLIN IS TOUCHING MEEEEE. :(

Joshua Aslan Smith

21:01

my physical books are 5e PHB (whenever it gets here), the terrible movie licensed LOTR game from a few years back that is pretty much a 3.5 clone, and Cyberpunk 2020

MadMAxJr

Hah. I knew one of the contributors to Cyberpunk 2020, many, many moons ago.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@mattdm I have the opposite opinion on this, at face value 5e is in a ADnD or 3.5ish vein but as I delve deeper it looks more and more like 4e or DW

They basically hid 4e's action economy with loose terms and less rigorous writing but its all there

MadMAxJr

ADnD? Oh please tell me 5E doesn't have anything like 'weapon speed' in there...?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@MadMAxJr I think in terms of feel/flavor less mechanics

MadMAxJr

2E didn't even /have/ rules for delaying action in the TSR print. :D

Took me a year to realize that many of the rules at our 2E table were house-ruled. 2E was merely a guideline he built on top of.

That DM added another stat to the list. He decided Charisma should only be how effective your social influence is and not be directly tied to your appearance. So appearance was another stat.

When I got my hands on 3.0, things felt much more structured. A lot of the stuff we had home-grown rules for had fixed versions now. And we wondered why 'feats' were a thing at all.

2E had a lot of our DM saying, "No, it doesn't work that way." to situations not covered by the rulebook. 3E turned into much more, "Well if we take this as written, I can clearly do X."

Lymia Aluysia

21:11

Nya~ Hi everyone.

MadMAxJr

Good afternoon.

user61230

Hello!

user61230

How goes it?

wax eagle

21:41

@MadMAxJr want to hear something funny. 5e has more programmers writing it and they used software design methodology to create it :)

(Mearls and Crawford both have software backgrounds as do several other folks on the project)

MadMAxJr

Dungeons and SCRUM projects

wax eagle

(and actually you can see elements of OOP in the class designs)

there's and interview with Crawford (I linked part 2 of it in the 5e room yesterday) where he talks about their iterative design approach and software backgrounds

MadMAxJr

Alright, hi everyone, I'm Dave, the dragon of the dungeon. This is our 15 minute standup for today. I'm gonna go around the room and we're gonna talk about our projects. Kobolds, how's the pit of acid coming along? Need more materials? Okay put in an order form. Gnolls? Ahead of schedule? Great, bump your post-it note on the SCRUM board from work-in-progress to testing.

This is a big deal everyone, the Lich is coming by next week and we need these projects in order.

Mhmm. Okay Skeletons, we'll take that out of the sprint for this week. Better luck next time guys.

And that would be when the heroes fireball the stand-up meeting room, because all the monsters are there at once.

Note to self... Lich with a tie. Magic tie.

3

wax eagle

definitely

MadMAxJr

"Alright guys, you move into the next dungeon room and encounter the SCRUM MASTER..."

"The fighter is entrapped in red tape."

"The wizard is trapped in a zone of bureaucratic entanglement. Every action he wants to take needs to be signed off by two other party members."

"And nothing happens to the Rogue, since he picked up the Idol of Cowboy Coding and can't hear the Scrum Master."

I hope I don't sit and write this dungeon when I get home.

"Woe to those whom would enter here. Dungeon is in Beta and subject to change."

user61230

21:54

The dungeon is secretly just an office, and the walls are secretly just cubicles.

MadMAxJr

... The reverse sadly describes my office.

user61230

Your office is secretly a dungeon? o.O

MadMAxJr

With terrible loot drops and the challenges are unbalanced.

user61230

The kobolds are all armed with paperwork! Nooooooo!

MadMAxJr

In a programming pit next to helpdesk, which is defensively built so that you have to walk down the middle of them and the cube walls provide plenty of cover, so the only time you can see one, there will also be one flanking you.

And even if you get past that, there's just a half eaten box of Ray's doughnuts back there and the risk of manager agro.

And there's no getting out without crossing LOS of the manager.

And it's 5. I'm out.

BESW

22:41

@Emrakul My librarian with all the custom spells, when he hit epic levels, created a permanent suppress/activate at-will 10'-radius aura of swirling pages which dealt 100 damage worth of papercuts divided evenly among all targets inside the aura every round.

(And provided concealment.)

user61230

In reply to kobolds armed with paperwork? XD

BESW

Also, on the office dungeon theme: gelatinous cubicle.

BESW

22:59

Hey, lookkit the Nestene Consciousness.

BESW

23:11

(For the uninitiated or those who only saw it in New Who, the Nestene Consciousness is a Doctor Who monster which exists as psychic energy that can possess and animate objects made of plastic. Which then kill people.)

"RELEASE THE DOGS OF WAR" "Sir we are out of dogs" "RELEASE THE CATS OF SKIRMISH" "Sir..." "RELEASE THE RABBITS OF KERFUFFLE"

Tweeted by TechnicallyRon on March 13, 2014 at 12:43 PM

RedRiderX

23:40

@BESW Hey it was kind of sort of in New Who

BESW

@RedRiderX "or those who only saw it in New Who,"

RedRiderX

Oops

Note to self: read the words

BESW

'cause in New Who, it only had Autons as minions; aside from an errant trash can as a gag joke at Mickey's expense, it didn't animate any other plastic.

mbriand

Still rory as the plastic centurion was pretty amazing.

BESW

Rory is my favourite New Who companion, hands-down.

Probably because he's the only one who wasn't overawed by the Doctor, and had his own life goals which he didn't abandon as soon as he stepped into the TARDIS.

Miniman

23:50

Who's Rory? My favourite New Who companion is Adric.

mbriand

Yep for me it's Rory and Wilfred though now that I think about it that sounds pretty sexist ;).

wax eagle

@Miniman amy's boyfriend/husband/the boy who waited etc

BESW

@waxeagle He's making the Doctor Who equivalent of the "Did you hear Disney's making the fourth Star Wars movie?" gag.

mbriand

@Miniman Wait how are doctors 4/5 new who?

wax eagle

aaaaah

mbriand

23:52

oh

Miniman

Yeah, that's my anti-new series comment for the day. Shame I used it up so early, but what can you do.

BESW

Although personally I'm okay with acknowledging the presence of the two Star Wars prequel films and I'm looking forward to the sixth film by Disney.

4

Miniman

@BESW Well played, good sir.

BESW

@Miniman I think one of the reasons I'm okay with New Who is that for me, its utter mutability is one of the show's defining attributes. I can watch Ten just the same way I watch Six: "This is not the show, this is a moment in the show's history. This actor/writer/producer/director/budget/etc will be outlived by the show."

Miniman

@BESW I'm going to have to disagree with that one. There is a definite paradigm shift that has been across every bit of New Who that I've seen (or heard about, which happens a lot more)

BESW

23:59

Well, yeah. There was a massive paradigm shift for the Third Doctor, and the JNT era, and [insert plentitude of examples here].

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